This topic has been discussed a bit in another thread, to wit; "Salvation Issues" but I thought it merited it's own thread. I will start it off with a study done by Br. Marty (are you still with us Marty?) that was posted on the old forum which bares the same title as this thread. I'm mostly in agreement with Br. Marty on his post, so I present it here unedited.

(Note: Please everyone, don't get all offended because he quotes KJV which still has the old names and titles unrestored.. please try to look past this for now and concentrate on the subject at hand.)

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Originally posted by brmarty:
Shalom and Peace to all,

I, as well as many others, have been studying this unique topic. I say "unique" topic because there are so many aspects to "covenant"(contractual)relationships between YHWH and Human Beings.

I would like to present my understanding of this relationship as briefly as possible.

Let us look at the scriptures that pertain to the "new" covenant:

KJV Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

KJV Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

The first part of this "New" covenant has been going on since the creation of man, that is:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Let us look at an example with David:

KJV Psalm 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

1. Who is creating the clean heart and putting His Spirit within David? YHWH

So, I suggest that YHWH has been fulfilling this part of the "New" covenant since Adam. For we know that only through YHWH's Spirit can we please Him. This would not constitute a difference in our current "covenant" relationship with YHWH.

I believe the difference in our current "covenant" relationship and the "New" covenant relationship YHWH is talking about is the second part of the "New" convenant defintion:

And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Question: Do we teach eachother today brother to brother?
Does everyone from the least to the greatest know
YHWH today?
Does YHWH still remember our sins today if we fail to
repent daily of them?

Here lies the difference between the "New" convenant and the current covenant relationship we as Firstfruits enjoy. I believe that this "New" covenant relationship is a future relationship between YHWH and the "physical" nation of Israel after YHWH resurects the "physical" nation of Israel to serve Him forever.

I also believe that Paul understood this and was directly explaining to the Jews at that time, and for us, that this relationship would be coming for them in the future. This explains the verses found in Hebrews. We know that the Jews were blinded by YHWH and that he had already promised that they would not enter into His Rest (Firstfruit Resurrection). Yet we also find that YHWH does say that He will bring the "whole" house of Israel back into their land and we also find the same verbage as to the relationship between that physical nation and YHWH in the following verses:

KJV Ezekiel 37:6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD. 7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone. 8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them. 9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live. 10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army. 11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts. 12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, 14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

KJV Ezekiel 37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God. 24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. 25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever. 26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

In these last few verses, we find very clearly that this physical people will not sin, they will live forever and YHWH's sanctuary will be in their midst forever.

Question: When is YHWH sanctuary placed in the land forever?

I know that this is alot to digest and many may disagree with me. That is fine. But for those who have never been presented with this view, I hope it may provide food for thought.

I would like to provide my understanding of exactly which covenant that is applicable to us today.

I truly believe that the "New" covenant is a covenant relationship between YHWH and the physical nation of Israel in a future time. This explains Paul's views in Hebrews where He only talks about the physical covenants given to the Hebrew people. The first covenant between YHWH and the Physical Nation of Israel given at Mt. Sinai, and the second "New" covenant to be given again to a Physical Nation of Israel in the future. Both of which were made possible by the coming of YAHSHUA.

There has always been another covenant in effect for the "firstfruits" of YHWH. That covenant was a "convenant of promise" or some would know it as the "convenant of faith" which is a "Spritual" covenant. This covenant has been applied to man kind since the creation of Adam.

Paul does a beautiful job of explaining this "firstfruit" covenant in the entire Chapter of Hebrews 11. Here we find that Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham Etc., will be firstfruits along with the other "chosen or elect" of YHWH throughout history, to hopefully include us, and everyone else who will be given that opportunity until Yahshua returns.

Question: How does Abel have the same promise and firstfruit status as we do?

Answer: The "Spiritual" covenant has never changed. The relationship has never changed. YHWH has been writing His Laws into the hearts of men who would humble themselves and choose to follow them since day one. He continues to renew right spirits and clean hearts in those who choose to follow him now. Remember the words of YHWH to Abraham:

KJV Genesis 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Abraham, Noah, Abel and all of the other "firstfruits" did exactly this, and hopefully we will continue to choose to do these things always.

Which exact laws they abode by is irrelevant. The fact that they believed in YHWH when He told them that there would be a "promise" of eternal inheritance, "Firstfruit" status, for them if they followed everything YHWH said for them to do constitutes the "faith" or "belief" required to truly worship YHWH in Spirit and in Truth.

May the peace and blessings of YHWH be poured out upon all those who seek His Face first in their lives always.

Shalom,
your brother marty

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Thanks Brother Marty!

Shabbat Shalom!

.

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Originally posted by brmarty:
Shalom and Peace to All,

Hello again. Just one quick addition to my above posting while I have the opportunity. I am finding through my studies of the so-called "New" testament, that many changes and liberties have been implemented in what many would call our current "New" testament books. I am quite sure that is no big secret to many of you, hopefully all of you.

For example, most of the books are not compiled from any one manuscript word verbatim. Actually, a vast amount of the text is an accumulation of thousands of manuscripts of various ages. In fact, the majority of the "New" testament greek we see in most translations are based on the "Majority Text" or "Received Text", both of which are based on the very latest, not the oldest, manuscripts which were available to the translators.

Very few translations are actually taken from the "oldest" or "ancient" texts which, with use of some common sense, would seem to prove to be the more reliable and more accurate texts to use. This is not news to the scholarly world who study and have been study biblical texts. In fact, many scholars would tell you that most translations using the Majority Text or Received Text would most probably be less accurate than the ancient manuscripts around. The only problem is that there are not alot of ancient manuscripts for alot of the "New" testament books. There is, rather, a vast amount of later manuscripts which, over many years, most believably experienced changes.

What does this all mean you ask? Well, the software tool that I use, BibleWorks of which I am very impressed, does try to implement the "ancient" or older manuscripts when possible. You may be very interested to know that in the accounts of Passover found in Mathew and Mark, the ancient texts do not show the word "new" testament at all when Yahshua was addressing His disciples during Passover. These two verses are found in Math 26:28 and Mark 14:24.

In fact, the only gospel book which shows the greek word for "new", in reference to new testament, is Luke. Furthermore, it is a known fact that this rendetion comes from the "Majority Text", not an ancient text. Remember, however, most greek translations of the "New" testament are based on the "Majority" or "Received" Texts. It is possible, however, as I have done, to go to a biblical library and find for yourselves the above facts and some of the ancient texts.

I believe that Yahshua never told the disciples to drink of the blood of the "new" testament(covenant). I believe He merely reiterated that these new symbols did represent His "covenant of promise" for the disciples of which He clearly knew would be "Firstfruits".

This is a very fascinating an intense research project which I would recommend for everyone to do. It can be accomplished and the truth is out there in many well documented studies of the bilbical greek texts.

I will leave you with one last supporting effort of my understanding:

KJV Luke 1:69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; 70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: 71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; 72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant; 73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

Question: Yahshua is our Horn of Salvation from the House of David right?

Question: YHWH clearly shows that Yahshua was coming to permanently place into affect the "covenant" that was promised to Abraham right?

Question: What was the "covenant" he promised to Abraham, the "covenant of promise or faith" or the "New Covenant" talked about for the first time hundreds of years later in Jeremiah?

May YHWH bless and keep you all as you seek His Face always,

your brother marty

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Thanks again Brother. I think you have captured the gist of it although there are some small points I could take issue with (and I'm sure others will as well). But this is a wonderful topic of great hope and joy and I think too many people are missing out on the big picture. Salvation is coming to a great multitude of people folks so be careful who you condemn in this age!

Abba Yah changed the ordinances/instructions of the covenant because the "original" covenant has failed the people.

I pray your Sabbath hours were a blessing to both you and yours!

Br Marty noted these words with which I must take exception:

"Here lies the difference between the "New" convenant and the current covenant relationship we as Firstfruits enjoy. I believe that this "New" covenant relationship is a future relationship between YHWH and the "physical" nation of Israel after YHWH resurects the "physical" nation of Israel to serve Him forever."

This is quite a wonder to me, for I have come forward with these Scriptural prophecies and revelations almost a dozen times I would say over the last year and then some, and although these texts are complete within themselves, foretelling the end of the probationary period of Israel as the Chosen People of Yahweh, none has come forward to refute the words, but still there are posts coming forward with the same m.o., and this without any Scriptural backup whatever! Wonderful indeed!

Let us read the prophecy of Daniel 9: 23-27:

"At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision [these words tell us that Gabriel is coming because Yahweh has sent him to Daniel, not to tell him something brand new, but rather to give him a further clue to allow Daniel to learn the meaning of the previous vision which he was praying about].

24: Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy [This tells us that Yahweh is bringing Daniel, through Gabriel, the period of time that has been set for the nation of Hebrews probationary time! Before this prophecy, Israel has proven herself, from the end of the Egyptian bondage, right up until the time of Messiah, that she was ". . . stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, [who] do always resist the Holy Spirit: as [their] fathers did, so do [they]. 52: Which of the prophets have not [her fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom [they] have been now the betrayers and murderers: 53: Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it" (Acts 7: 51-53, KJV)! Having remained this way, right up until, and including the time of Yahshua, they as a nation proved themselves forever unworthy as a nation, of receiving the eternal life of the Son, that which all share in who receive Him as Savior and Master of their lives].

25: Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem [this occurred in 457 A.D.] unto the Messiah the Prince [Yahshua was annointed with both water and the Holy Spirit in 27 A.D.] shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26: And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary [this of course speaks of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.]; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27: And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week [this period of one week is seven years, the last week of the 70 weks]: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease [in the middle of that last seven years, which here is in the "midst of the week," Yahshua shall cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease, for we read this in Matthew 27: 52-53: "[b]And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom [this was the end of the sacrifices and oblations, although maybe not actually, those sacrifices no longer had any meaning after Jewry had said that His death could be upon them and their children]; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52: And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53: And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many"],

and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate [Here we are seeing the very words of Yahshua when He said to Jerusalem: 'Your home is left unto you desolate' (Matthew 23: 38, KJV)]."

From the above, we learn that the Jews were forever given over into their own desires, and that as a nation, the Jews are no longer the Chosen of Yahweh. This is obvious when we see what has happened to the nation throughout the years since the stoning of Stephen, for these dear people have received all of those curses that have been prophesied would come upon them in Deuteronomy 28, for their being in unbelief! This will not change, for the prophecy has indeed come upon the people, and there will not be a last-day bringing forth of the nation into salvation, for they lost this Gift in 34 A.D., according to the prophet Daniel, and according to the words of both Yahshua Messiah as noted above, and the words of Stephen, who was stoned, in that year, ending the probationary period of the Hebrews as a people forever.

Today, it is possible and right that individual Jews who accept Yahshua and live according to that faith that works by agape, be accepted into the Family of Yahweh, yet the nation has been forever condemned. Please, do not receive this as one man's opinion, but go into the Internet, and study under the teqachings of the Jesuit priest Robera, the teachings of James D'Arby, Dispensationalism and the Jewish question, and recognize this is all part of a plot by the papacy as a smokescreen to cause trouble in the last days, so that she can become that one who "sitteth in the temple of Elohim, showing that he is Elohim!"

quote:

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Br. Marty wrote: “Here lies the difference between the "New" convenant and the current covenant relationship we as Firstfruits enjoy. I believe that this "New" covenant relationship is a future relationship between YHWH and the "physical" nation of Israel after YHWH resurects the "physical" nation of Israel to serve Him forever."

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The FIRST covenant with Moses, #1 at Horeb [another name for Sinai], was established at the start of the 40 years in the desert. It was here where Yahweh took the Israelites as His “peculiar people.”

Ex 19:5 IF ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, THEN ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
Ex 29:45 I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will be their God.
Le 26:12 I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people.
De 7:6 Thou art an holy people unto Yahweh thy God: Yahweh thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

This first of two covenants with Moses established Israel as Yahweh’s chosen people. They were not His chosen before this, the agreement was: Yahweh would take them on as His chosen People and be their God IF they would obey His commandments.

This first covenant with Moses at Sinai [or Horeb] is ‘THE’ covenant, this is the covenant referred to in the NT as the old covenant. In the NT the old covenant never refers to any covenant with Noah, David or even the 2nd covenant with Moses at Moab, it always is talking about this first covenant with Moses at Sinai. This is ‘THE’ covenant that was also dedicated with blood:

He 9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. 19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, 20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. 21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry (See Ex 24:3-8).
No other covenant was dedicated in this way except the “Old” Covenant and the “New” Covenant.

The 2nd covenant with Moses’ at Moab was at the end of the forty years as they were about to enter the promised land. All of the ones whom the first covenant at Sinai was established with, were now dead, with the exception of Joshua, Caleb and of course Moses. This 2nd covenant was based on the same commandments as the first, however Yahweh now, having established them as His peculiar people with the first covenant, puts in this covenant the promise of great physical blessings if they obey His law.

De 29:1 These are the words of the covenant, which Yahweh commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, BESIDE the covenant which he made with them in Horeb (Sinai).
De 29:9 Keep therefore the words of this covenant, and do them, that ye may PROSPER IN ALL THAT YE DO.

#2 Covenant: Again Israel is to obey; this time Yahweh will prosper His ALREADY chosen people.

So the first covenant at Mt Sinai (the old covenant in the NT) had nothing to do with being blessed or prospering, it was only establishing the Israelites as Yahweh’s peculiar people and Him as their God. This is exactly the arrangement of the new covenant with the House of Israel.

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith Yahweh, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and WILL BE THEIR GOD, and they shall BE MY PEOPLE. see He 8:8-13.

The new covenant is the same as the old (Moses' #1 Sinai) in that Yahweh “will be their God” (Jer 31:33, Heb 8:10). The old covenant with Moses says the same, Yahweh “will be their God” (Ex 29:45).

The old covenant states Ex 19:5 “ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people, 6 a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation.”

The new covenant states exactly the same, “they shall be to me a people” Heb 8:10, “a peculiar people” Tit 2:14, “a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people” 1Pe2:9.

Both the old and new covenants have the exact same wording. The promise of both the old and new covenants was and is Eternal life.

NEW COVENANT: Heb 9:15 They which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

OLD COVENANT: He 11:39 And these all, (OT saints) having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: (of eternal life) 40 God having provided (#4265 foreseen) some better thing for us, THAT THEY WITHOUT US should not be made perfect.

The OT saints expected more then earthly prosperity from Yahweh, they were looking for eternal life, see Job 19:26-27; Is 25:8, 26:19; Eze 37: 1-14; Ho 6:2, 13:14; Dan 12:2. They knew and were promised resurrection unto eternal life. The great cloud of witnesses mentioned in Hebrews suffered and died “That they might obtain a better resurrection” (He 11:35), resurrected eternal.

Many people when speaking of the Old Covenant are referring to the 2nd covenant at Moab, as they were about to take the promised land, this 2nd one dealt with earthly, national promises and not the 1st one at Mount Sinai, which promised eternal life.

Ga 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

Here Paul makes it clear the Mount Sinai covenant is the legitimate “old” covenant, as does Heb 8:9.

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Br. Marty wrote: “Question: Do we teach eachother today brother to brother?

Does everyone from the least to the greatest know YHWH today?

Does YHWH still remember our sins today if we fail to repent daily of them?”[/QUOTE

No, we do not teach today each other brother to brother to “Know Yahweh” because only Yahshua can do that (Mt 11:27).

Everyone partaking of the New Covenant, from the least to the greatest, knows Yahweh today because in order to be part of the New Covenant you must know, believe and accept Yahshua and through that you know Yahweh.

Yahweh cannot remember our sins today even if we fail to repent daily of them because, “If any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Yahshua Messiah the righteous” (1Jo 2:1), also, “Seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them” (Heb 7:25).

[QUOTE]Br. Marty wrote: “I truly believe that the "New" covenant is a covenant relationship between YHWH and the physical nation of Israel in a future time.”

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Here is why this cannot be.

Ro 4:12 Abraham the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which [he had] being [yet] uncircumcised.

Abraham was saved through faith even before he was circumcised.

Ga 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, THE SAME ARE THE CHILDREN OF ABRAHAM.
Ga 3:29 If ye [be] Messiah's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the PROMISE.
Ro 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which [he had yet] being uncircumcised: that he might be THE FATHER OF ALL THEM THAT BELIEVE, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

You become a son of Abraham, an Israelite through faith in Messiah. You are no longer a Gentile or a pagan but an Israelite.

Ro 2:28 For he is NOT a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Ro 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham (bloodline), are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh (bloodline), these are NOT the children of God: but the children of the PROMISE are counted for the seed.

The Jews and other Israelites are no longer considered descendents of Abraham. Only the CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE ARE COUNTED FOR THE SEED. They must again become children of Abraham through the door that is Yahshua.

By faith in Messiah Gentiles become a son of Abraham and are grafted into the olive tree that is Israel (Ro 11:17), and Jews by being re-grafted in.

So even Gentiles become “heirs according to the promise” so that “the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law (Jews), but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham” (Ro 4:16).

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Messiah, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world.

In verse 11, to whom is Paul writing to in this passage? He’s writing to the Gentiles, contemptuously called the “Uncircumcision” by the Jews. Before they came to Messiah they were “aliens from the commonwealth of Israel,” (vs.12). In verse 13 and 19 he tells them that through Messiah they are now “no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God.” He writes in verse 14 that Messiah “hath made both one.” “Both,” being the Gentiles and the Jews, the Uncircumcison and the Circumcision.

The "New Covenant” cannot be a covenant relationship between Yahweh and the physical nation of Israel in a future time because Yahweh is now and forever only dealing with those who come to Him through His Son, because he is the SEED (singular) of Abraham (Gal 3:16).

quote:

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Br. Marty wrote: “There has always been another covenant in effect for the "firstfruits" of YHWH. That covenant was a "convenant of promise" or some would know it as the "convenant of faith" which is a "Spritual" covenant. This covenant has been applied to man kind since the creation of Adam.”

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I've got a lot on my plate at this time and can't reply to every point made due to lack of time. I will read it all and study it all further but in the meantime, please carry on. I think it's a very important (and a very interesting)topic. I'll try to join back in soon.

I still don't have much time, but I wanted to say that I respect your views and especially respect the way you always present your case, i.e. without emotionalism or finger-pointing or any of the other negative ways many find to express their beliefs.

Man, I wish I could go point for point, lacking time to dig deeply into this topic, I can't right now, but based on many things I have learned, I can say that I am in agreement with much of what you write and JayYah as well but also in some disagreement as well.

The House of Yisrael and the House of Yehudah have not and will not cease to be. It will be a physical nation. Many who are in or will be in that physical nation came from seed other than Abraham.

All of Yisrael shall be saved (yes it's true we may have different ideas of what Yisrael is).

Y'shua died for the sins of mankind (many have lived who never knew that).

YHWH will have mercy on whom He will have mercy (regardless if any of us may disagree with His decision on whom He will save).

The firstfruits is a small remnant of the world's population past and present.

Many who never heard of the truth of YHWH and the sending of His Son will have a chance (though they will not be firstfruits).

Many who think they are among the firstfruits are in fact, not.

Most alive have not yet tasted of the whole truth and therefore will not be held accountable to it in total until they have both heard and understood it.

Blessed are the merciful for they shall obtain mercy.

These are just some quick sound bytes that I will have to expound upon in a future post for I must get back to work now.

YHWH bless us with a renewed heart and spirit to serve Him.

Shalom,
T4T

The covenant given to Moses was inclomplete to begin with because the ancient Israelites accepted and affirmed it without question--not once, but twice (Exodus 24:3,7). The people were too arrogant that they could follow the Torah by the letter all by themselves alone--without the aid of the Holy Spirit. As Paul said, "... Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone..." (Romans 9:32)

In the New Covenant, Jehoshua the Messiah supplied the missing ingredient, that is, the Holy Spirit, which would assist the flesh in fulfilling the law. He also improved the covenant on far better promises. How generous, wonderful and merciful is the Messiah!

Based on Genesis 25:4-5, it is my belief that the two Covenants each consist of the following stipulations:

1. Participants
a. JHVH
b. Messiah (new)
c. Commonwealth of Jisrael
d. Holy Spirit (new--a free gift)

2. Conditions (Obedience to):
a. Law - The 10 Commandments
b. Ordinances - Civil laws
c. Statutes - Priesthood laws

3. Signature:
a. Circumcision (old:flesh; new:heart)
b. Sabbath Observance

4. Promise:
a. Land and Descendants (old)
b. Eternal life, spiritual bodies, etc. (new)

5. Penalty for Non-Compliance: Death

The structure of the two covenants are basically the same, and some of the stipulations remain, such as the 10 Commandments. Thus in order for us to be part of JHVH's people, we are required to follow the Torah and accept Jehoshua of Nazareth as our Messiah.

It is important to remember that the two covenants are only PARTLY in effect: the old one given at Sinai fading away, and the new one partly taking over. Thus, for almost 2000 years, we are in a state of transition from the old to the new. Full realization of the new covenant will only happen upon the millenial reign of Jehoshua Messiah on earth. With this in mind, with the promise of eternal priesthood, we are required to be well oriented in the two covenants. That is why it is imperative that the two Houses of Jisrael Unite (Judah and Cristian-Ephraim): one being expert in the Torah, and the other in the works of the Messiah.

May JHVH finally re-unite the two houses of Jisrael soon! May HE have mercy on all of us sinners!

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Dick wrote: “In the New Covenant, Jehoshua the Messiah supplied the missing ingredient, that is, the Holy Spirit, which would assist the flesh in fulfilling the law.”

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We have this notion that the Holy Spirit was given at Pentecost and before that it was only used sparely to accomplish special projects, but the Holy Spirit has always been given to whom Yahweh willed, just as it is today.

Ex 31:3 I have filled him (Bezaleel) with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship.
Nu 11:25 Yahweh came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that [was] upon him, and gave [it] unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, [that], when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.
Nu 27:18 Yahweh said unto Moses, Take thee Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom [is] the spirit, and lay thine hand upon him;
De 34:9 Joshua the son of Nun was full of the spirit of wisdom; for Moses had laid his hands upon him.
1Sa 10:6 The Spirit of Yahweh will come upon thee (Saul), and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man. 16:14 But the Spirit of Yahweh departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from Yahweh troubled him.
1Sa 16:13 The Spirit of Yahweh came upon David from that day forward.
Neh 9:30 Yet many years didst thou (Yahweh) forbear them (Israelites), and testifiedst against them by thy spirit in thy prophets: yet would they not give ear.
Ps 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
Isa 11:2 And the spirit of Yahweh shall rest upon him (Yahshua), the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of Yahweh;
Isa 42:1 ; I have put my spirit upon him (Yahshua): he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord Yahweh [is] upon me (Yahshua); because Yahweh hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives.
Isa 63:11 He remembered the days of old, Moses, [and] his people, [saying], Where [is] he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where [is] he that put his holy Spirit within him?
Eze 2:2 (Ezekiel) The spirit entered into me when he spake unto me, and set me upon my feet, that I heard him that spake unto me.
Mic 3:8 But truly I am (Micah) full of power by the spirit of Yahweh, and of judgment, and of might, to declare unto Jacob his transgression, and to Israel his sin.
Hag 2:5 [According to] the word that I covenanted with you when ye came out of Egypt, so my spirit remaineth among you: fear ye not.
1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Messiah which was in them (prophets vs 10)did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Messiah, and the glory that should follow.

The Holy Spirit was most certainly in many of the children of Israel long before Pentecost, which enabled them to walk in the spirit and not in the flesh. This is the only way they could have pleased Yahweh (Ro 8:8).

OT LAW WRITTEN ON OT HEARTS
De 6:6 These words (commandments, statutes, and judgments vs 1), which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
De 11:18 Therefore shall ye lay up these my words in your heart and in your soul, and bind them for a sign upon your hand, that they may be as frontlets between your eyes.
De 30:14 But the word [is] very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
Ps 37:30 The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom, and his tongue talketh of judgment. 31 The law of his God is in his heart; none of his steps shall slide.
Ps 119:11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.
Pr 3:1 My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments:2 For length of days, and long life, and peace, shall they add to thee. 3 Let not mercy and truth forsake thee: bind them about thy neck; write them upon the table of thine heart:
Pr 7:2 Keep my commandments, and live; and my law as the apple of thine eye. 3 Bind them upon thy fingers, write them upon the table of thine heart.
Isa 51:7 Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart [is] my law;
Jer 15:16 Thy words were found, and I did eat (devour) them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart:

OT HEARTS SPIRITUALLY CIRCUMCISED
The fact that the OT believers were saved exactly as we are, through faith in Yahweh, that He would provide a saviour, is further seen in these verses that show the OT believers had to be physically, as well as spiritually circumcised. Reading these we understand where Paul got all the material for his epistles.

Thank you T4T for begining another Thread, which to date has been most informative!

My thought is that none of us will doubt that it is because of the holy history [His perfectly lived life, His second death, His resurrection, and His glorification in the Heavenly Home] of Yahshua Messiah, that we all have the possibility of sharing in His sinless eternal life at His appearing. Therefore I present you with these thoughts:

1/ It is only due to that holy history of Messiah that any of us might be blessed with holiness of present character, and that promise of eternal life, which is the blessed hope of all believers!

2/ Once the believer accepts Yahshua Messiah as Savior, and Master of this present life, then that one is clothed with the "righteous garment of Messiah," which garment is always that which makes the difference in the believer's life unto salvation. Wherein the believer fails of full character maturity [Messiah-likeness] before his/her time to sleep the sleep
of the blessed!

3/ It is prophecied that there will come a time, when all will know Him! My contention is that as a first-fruits of that time that is still future, and will be actualized at His Second Coming, it is the 144,000, those who will see Yahshua Messiah coming in power and glory, and yet will not be destroyed by the power of His coming, who will truly be first-fruits of that prophecy/promise of Yahweh, and this will come forth, as the Time of Trouble, and the Time of Jacob's Trouble will both work their polishing work [some would prefer to say purging of the dross of character flaws] of the characters of these 144,000, making them, even as Messiah is in character! This is spoken of by Paul herein:

"For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19: For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of Elohim [this will occur at the manifestation of the 144,000]. 20: For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope [in hope of what? In hope that all will reel away from this vanity, and look for higher spiritual attainments], 21: Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of Elohim [again, this deliverance from corruption (ceasation from all conscious sinning) will be received as a gift for having gone through the times spoken of above by the 144,000, this polishing their faith and bringing forth the fullness of agape, and bringing them unto perfect rest in Yahweh, in and through Yahshua Messiah (i.e., they had absolutely no other choice due to circumstances about them, but to fully trust in their Yahweh, Who then supplies them that character {full Messiah-like maturity} that they prayed moment by moment for)] .

22: For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now [Why is it that all groan?] . . . even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body [It is the redemption of our bodies that we groan about, for until that happens (at the Second Coming), we still must fight the physical law spoken of in Romans 7: 'The law of sin and death'].

24: For we are saved by hope [here, we are shown that what's spoken about again is the redemption of our sinful bodies, which is called "the blessed hope"]: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for [i.e., if we've already got this maturity and blessed hope, why do we yet pray for it]? 25: But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it" (Romans 8: 18-25, KJV, emphasis & notations mine).

This blessed hope, which shall be the establishment of the New Covenant for the whole of sinless mankind that appears after the appearance of the 144,000 [for these are again a first-fruits of all those who are dead in the graves in Messiah, awaiting His Second Coming, and thus their restoration to life, but this time to sinless glory], is that which is spoken about in the promise! Yet we must never forget there will be a first-fruits of that promise just before all receive the blessed hope, and this is for us to choose to be a part of today, right here and now! Can you receive this blessing? Likely, you are doubtful of self, but that's a good thing! Let us all pray that in and through Yahshua Messiah, Yahweh will bring us that maturity that is needed, for the 144,000 to appear, which shall be a showing to us all, that Yahshua is soon to come and end the Troubles that at this time, we will all be experiencing who walk in agape and obedience with out Elohim!

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2Corinthians 4: 6
Yahweh's promises
are enablings!

Indeed, the presence of Jehoshua Messiah and the Holy Spirit was made manifest to a select few before the birth of the Messiah in the flesh. Enoch, Noah, Shem, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Jehoshua Son of Nun, Samson, David, Elijah and the rest of the prophets all received the power of the Holy Spirit (albeit in varying degrees sutiable for a particular role or task) through DIRECT REVELATION by JHVH the Father.

With the introduction of the new covenant, the Holy Spirit becomes a free gift to those who believe in the Jehoshua the Messiah. It was made known to ALL Jisrael, not just to a select few. Now, going back to the covenant given to Moses at Sinai, the ancient Israelites believed in themselves too much that they no longer needed a MEDIATOR (Jehoshua the Messiah) and a COMFORTER (Holy Spirit) to be obedient to the requirements of the covenant, rendering the covenant itself incomplete and prematurely ratified. JHVH knew all along that the arrogance of the people would fail them, and that a more complete covenant would be required for Jisrael's salvation.

In my studies of the Scripture, I give emphasis on the technical aspects of all the covenants. Actually, a discussion of the covenants would require a lot of references and studies, that is why I try not quoting from the Scriptures, believing that what I state is fairly self-evident.

It is my belief that our very salvation rests greatly in understanding in detail our agreements with The Creator. Many Christians have been misled by Satan into believing that the old covenant IS the Ten Commandments, not a component of it. As a soldier of Ephraim, I believe it is my duty to share in my own little way the knowledge that was revealed to me by JHVH.

In the final analysis, ALL Jisrael will be saved, not just 144,000 (because I do not classify the Book of Revelations as divinely inspired but a valuable reference nonetheless--let's save this issue for another thread, okay?). Two groups of people will be resurrected in the coming of King Jehoshua Messiah: one spiritual beings who will act as priests and co-rulers for 1,000 years (the first-fruits, of the tribe of Joseph/Ephraim); and the other, resurrected human beings in the flesh who will become JHVH's holy people on earth (Israelites). Of course, the rest of humanity (Muslims, Philistines, Hindus, Buddhists, atheists, etc.) will be resurrected as well, but they will be subjected to the rule of King Jehoshua and Jisrael. At the end of the millenium, at the time of judgment, all mankind will have a second chance to become spiritual beings--or die for eternity.

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Dick wrote: “Indeed, the presence of Jehoshua Messiah and the Holy Spirit was made manifest to a select few before the birth of the Messiah in the flesh. Enoch, Noah, Shem, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Jehoshua Son of Nun, Samson, David, Elijah and the rest of the prophets all received the power of the Holy Spirit (albeit in varying degrees sutiable for a particular role or task) through DIRECT REVELATION by JHVH the Father.”

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The Holy Spirit was given, to not just prophets, but all those in the OT that believed. Hebrews chapter eleven details how faithful Israelites received the promise of eternal life and pleased Yahweh through faith.

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Dick wrote: “With the introduction of the new covenant, the Holy Spirit becomes a free gift to those who believe in the Jehoshua the Messiah. It was made known to ALL Jisrael, not just to a select few.”

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The Holy Spirit was never restricted or limited but was always a free gift to any and all who believed in Yahshua, or believed Yahweh would send a saviour.

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Dick wrote: “Now, going back to the covenant given to Moses at Sinai, the ancient Israelites believed in themselves too much that they no longer needed a MEDIATOR (Jehoshua the Messiah) and a COMFORTER (Holy Spirit) to be obedient to the requirements of the covenant, rendering the covenant itself incomplete and prematurely ratified. JHVH knew all along that the arrogance of the people would fail them, and that a more complete covenant would be required for Jisrael's salvation.”

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Point well taken. However, we are talking about the nature of the COVENANTS here, not the nature of SALVATION. It is my impression that your are trying defend the old covenant by saying that FAITH has always been a part of the covenant itself--or explicitly included with it, even at the time of the assembly at Horeb. If that were so, then there would be no need for a new and better covenant, which would render the sacrificial blood of the Messiah useless.

I do not believe that the old covenant had a component of FAITH, but rather of WORKS only. FAITH during those times was provided SEPARATE from the covenant mediated by Moses. The saints and prophets in the Old Testament believed not because FAITH was readily supplied by the covenant; rather, it was given to them by direct revelation. Even the ancient Israelites saw the direct revelation of the glory of JHVH at Horeb and in the wilderness, that is why some or many of them believed and received the Holy Spirit.

In contrast to the old covenant, the new covenant mediated by Jehoshua Messiah had FAITH bundled with the agreement. FAITH in the new covenant is an INTEGRAL COMPONENT of it, that is why it is FREE. It is FAITH that makes it possible that the Torah be written in the hearts of men.

The question now is, are we in the age of the "New" covenant or are we at the "Interim" only? Like most of the brethren on this post, I agree that the "new" covenant is still not in effect, and that we are under the "first-fruits" agreement (or "interim" in my terminology). This interim covenant serves as the vehicle by which the future priests (under the order of Shem/Melchizedek) and co-rulers are being trained and selected for the millenial reign of the Messiah.

JHVH be praised!

quote:

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Dick wrote: “It is my impression that your are trying defend the old covenant by saying that FAITH has always been a part of the covenant itself--or explicitly included with it, even at the time of the assembly at Horeb. If that were so, then there would be no need for a new and better covenant, which would render the sacrificial blood of the Messiah useless.”

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Heb 10:1 Can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

There was not a provision in the Old Covenant for perfection or eternal cleansing from sin only a covering of sins years to year. Even the OT saints who kept the law perfectly by faith had to be brought into the New Covenant to receive perfect cleansing from sins and eternal life (Heb 9:15).

quote:

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Dick wrote: “I do not believe that the old covenant had a component of FAITH, but rather of WORKS only. FAITH during those times was provided SEPARATE from the covenant mediated by Moses. The saints and prophets in the Old Testament believed not because FAITH was readily supplied by the covenant; rather, it was given to them by direct revelation. Even the ancient Israelites saw the direct revelation of the glory of JHVH at Horeb and in the wilderness, that is why some or many of them believed and received the Holy Spirit.”

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Of course faith was not provided by the covenant, faith was around since Abel.

Heb 11:6 Without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is.

Faith must come before anyone can covenant with Yahweh. Only after faith can one partake of any covenant with Yahweh.

Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them (Israel in the wilderness): but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

quote:

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Dick wrote: “In contrast to the old covenant, the new covenant mediated by Jehoshua Messiah had FAITH bundled with the agreement. FAITH in the new covenant is an INTEGRAL COMPONENT of it, that is why it is FREE. It is FAITH that makes it possible that the Torah be written in the hearts of men.”

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Show us where faith in “bundled with the agreement” and is not something that must come before joining the New Covenant.

Yes, faith “makes it possible that the Torah be written in the hearts of men” and it was faith that allowed OT saints as well to have the Torah written on their hearts. Or do you not believe OT saints had the Torah written on their hearts?

quote:

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Dick wrote: “The question now is, are we in the age of the "New" covenant or are we at the "Interim" only? Like most of the brethren on this post, I agree that the "new" covenant is still not in effect, and that we are under the "first-fruits" agreement (or "interim" in my terminology). This interim covenant serves as the vehicle by which the future priests (under the order of Shem/Melchizedek) and co-rulers are being trained and selected for the millenial reign of the Messiah.”

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If you believe the New Covenant is not yet in effect then you must not have carefully read Hebrews. If the New Covenant is not yet in effect then Yahshua could not yet have applied his blood to the temple in heaven. If he did then the New Covenant is in force.

My take on the issue is that the New Covenant has been started, is being mediated currently, but has not yet been completed.

Here is another passage in Hebrews which seems to confirm that there is more to go.

Hebrews 12:18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,

19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:

20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:

21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake: )

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living Elohim, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and assembly of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Y'shua the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have favor, whereby we may serve acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

We are in the process of receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved. We are the ones receiving this kingdom. The tense and tone of this passage indicates to me that this is not over yet and there will be multitudes who will come to meet YHWH in this New Covenant. When all are gathered together in His presence and accept the Covenant, the shed blood of Y'shua will serve as the signature even though it was shed long ago.

To those who lived prior to the shedding of blood of Y'shua, they looked forward to it in promise. We look back to it. In YHWH's mind it happened before the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8).

As I have said before Dave, I respect you and the way you communicate what you have to say, without bitter resentments and infightings and all of that jazz... but I respectfully differ with you on this issue. I do as usual stand to be corrected because I know that I do not have all the answers today, but one day I will (and I think that will be given to all who partake in the New Covenant at one point or another).

Shalom,
T4T