I share the same beliefs as T4T's when he said "my take on the issue is that the New Covenant has been started, is being mediated currently, but has not yet been completed."

What I meant when I said that the "new covenant is still not in effect" is that it has not been totally put in force today, although the process of enforcement and orientation has begun, even as the new covenant has been composed already. Didn't I say in my first post:

"It is important to remember that the two covenants are only PARTLY in effect: the old one given at Sinai fading away, and the new one partly taking over. Thus, for almost 2000 years, we are in a state of transition from the old to the new. Full realization of the new covenant will only happen upon the millenial reign of Jehoshua Messiah on earth."

In Matthew 26:26-28, it is written:

"And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament {or covenant}, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."

To signify its completion and enforcement in the future, Jehoshua adds:

"But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom."

It is good that you admit that the old covenant itself had no FAITH (Holy Spirit) bundled with it, although people can always look for it elsewhere, as the saints and prophets did in the old testament times. In the old covenant, the Torah was written on tablets of stone, which were destructible; in the new covenant, on the otherhand, the Torah shall be written spiritually in our hearts. This alone proves my point that in the new covenant, FAITH/Holy Spirit is a free ingredient of it. By what means could the laws be written in our hearts but only through this very FAITH provided by the new covenant itself? That is why in the new covenant, we are required to circumcise our hearts through water baptism so the Holy Spirit can reside and grow in our hearts and write the Torah there. Jehoshua set an example for us in Matthew 3:16:

"And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

Faith in the old covenant was an option and was never clearly stated because the ancient Israelites thought that they could fulfill all its requirements by themselves alone--without the aid of a COMFORTER (Holy Spirit). In the new covenant, once you truly accept Jehoshua as Jisrael's Messiah and Saviour, then FAITH/Holy Spirit will be given to you for FREE. Clearly in the scriptures, accepting Jehoshua as the Messiah and accepting the Holy Spirit in your heart are two different matters. The Holy Spirit is provided after you have believed in the Messiah.

At the point of receiving the Holy Spirit, we are begotten-again, ready to learn and enforce the New Covenant on the return of the Messiah! When we are finally born-again as immortal beings, we shall judge the nations together with King Jehoshua for 1,000 years, binding the physical nation of Jisrael (resurrected human beings in the flesh) under the New Covenant in its entirety.

Let us praise JHVH for His incomparable love and generosity!

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torah4today wrote: “My take on the issue is that the New Covenant has been started, is being mediated currently, but has not yet been completed.”

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What is a covenant but an agreement or contract between two parties. You say this contract is still being negotiated or mediated? Until a contract is signed by both parties it can be mediated and amended but cannot be used. Only after it is signed can it be used but then it cannot be mediated or amended.

Heb 9:15 For this cause he is the mediator of the new covenant, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first covenant, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16 For where a covenant is, there must also of necessity be a death made. 17 For a covenant is of force after death: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the sacrifice liveth. 18 Whereupon neither the first covenant was dedicated without blood.

After Moses sprinkled the blood for the Old Covenant it was in force and could not be changed. The same with the New covenant, after Yahshua sprinkled his blood in heaven (Heb 9:12) the covenant was in force and could not be altered.

Ga 3:15 Though it be but a man’s covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

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torah4today wrote: “I have not yet come to the heavenly Jerusalem, I won't speak for others but I think if I had been to the heavenly Jerusalem, I would be able to describe it somewhat.”

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I don’t believe “come” here is in the same sense as visit but more in the idea of you have become a part of or have joined.

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torah4today wrote: “Y'shua is the mediator. That indicates He is mediating in the present tense. Once the mediation is complete, the fullness of the New Covenant will have been entered into and there will be no more need for a Mediator!”

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17 For a covenant is of force after death: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the sacrifice liveth.

The covenant is in force ever since Yahshua died.

Heb 9:18 Whereupon neither the first covenant was dedicated without blood.

Since we know Yahshua has sprinkled his blood in the temple in heaven we know the second covenant has been dedicated.

2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new covenant.

Ministers of the new covenant have been active for 2000 years.

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torah4today wrote: “At the first covenant, the earth shook. At the second, the whole of the heavens will shake. This is still yet future.”

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He said, “Heb 12:26 Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

Mt 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent.
Rev 12:7 There was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan.

This is what happened after the Yahshua died and resurrected.

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torah4today wrote: “The tense and tone of this passage indicates to me that this is not over yet and there will be multitudes who will come to meet YHWH in this New Covenant. When all are gathered together in His presence and accept the Covenant, the shed blood of Y'shua will serve as the signature even though it was shed long ago.”

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You said:
"What is a covenant but an agreement or contract between two parties. You say this contract is still being negotiated or mediated? Until a contract is signed by both parties it can be mediated and amended but cannot be used. Only after it is signed can it be used but then it cannot be mediated or amended."

And then you added:
"...I feel Yahshua’s blood has served as the signature and the covenant is dedicated, confirmed, established, endorsed or signed already."

You are assuming that the covenant has been accepted by all of Jisrael. A covenant cannot be signed unless it has been accepted by the second party (people). Before the Mosaic covenant was signed by the blood of animals, ALL of Jisrael accepted it, thus it was fully enforced. On the otherhand, the Jews rejected the Messiah together with the new covenant (but will eventually accept it in the millenium). Only the first-fruits believers in Messiah have accepted the agreement; thus, the new covenant is only applicable to them exclusively TODAY. Truly, it has already begun, but only partially! It is currently being mediated as well--to the rest of unbelievers!

If you contend that the new covenant is in force today in all its FULLNESS, how come many people still do not know who JHVH is? In Jer 31:33, JHVH says:

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

I do not see this happening NOW to Israel, but only to Messianic believers. The major difference in our understanding of the new covenant is that of its timing and implementation. In my opinion, you view the two covenants as though they were very simple. I tend to view the covenants, old and new, in this manner:

Old Covenant (mediated by Moses)
Phase I: Wilderness
Phase II: People of Jisrael in the Land of Jisrael

New Covenant (mediated by Jehoshua of Nazareth)
Phase I: Wilderness (First-Fruits, grafted into Ephraim-elect)
Phase II: People of Jisrael in the Land of Jisrael

Today, we are in first phase of the New Covenant, which we call in this forum "First-Fruits" or "Interim" covenant. As first-fruits and future priests, believers are grafted into the Tribe of Ephraim (even if one is Jew or Greek), for JHVH says in Jer 31:9:

"They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn."

The second phase of the new covenant involves its ultimate acceptance by the rest of the twelve tribes of Jisrael during the millenial reign of Jehoshua, when all Jisrael shall finally be gathered together in their land of inheritance. The rest of the people of the world shall look upon Jisrael as their example. People shall have the final opportunity to become like angels, as promised in the new covenant. This paves the way for the fulfillment of the mother of all covenants, not between JHVH and man, but between Father and Son:

"Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness..."

Truly, man's destiny is eternal life, in the image and likeness of JHVH and His Son Jehoshua Messiah. All the subsequent covenants were made for the sole purpose of fulfilling JHVH's Word, and because He does not lie.

JHVH's love is incomparable.

Praise be to JHVH!

Jer 31:9: "They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn."

They will not stumble once the New Covenant is in full force and effect.

I don't speak for others, and maybe I have not attained first fruit status so maybe that's my problem, but I still stumble. I wish I wouldn't but I do.

I think when the New Covenant is truly and completely written on my heart (as I pray for) then no longer will I stumble for His Torah will be so much a part of me that I would no sooner sin than I would cut off my hand.

The New Covenant is for all of Yisrael as Dick has pointed out and they have yet to agree to the terms as they did with the previous covenant.

The New Covenant has been offered but not yet accepted by the nation of Yisrael. This nation will of course include people from all tribes and tongues who may be grafted in. One quick look around the world indicates this covenant has not been accepted except by a very few, a remnant. And since it is not fully accepted by the whole nation, it is still in the interim phase. That's how I see it, but I will anxiously await to see how it really turns out in the end.

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Dick wrote: “It is good that you admit that the old covenant itself had no FAITH (Holy Spirit) bundled with it, although people can always look for it elsewhere, as the saints and prophets did in the old testament times.”

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And the New Covenant has no faith bundled with it either.

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Dick wrote: “Faith in the old covenant was an option and was never clearly stated because the ancient Israelites thought that they could fulfill all its requirements by themselves alone--without the aid of a COMFORTER (Holy Spirit).”

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Faith was not an option in the Old Covenant because those without faith were rejected from the covenant.

Heb 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Those without faith (unbelief) could not be part of the Old Covenant.

Heb 11:39 And these all (OT saints), having obtained a good report through faith.

Only with faith could they keep the Old Covenant. You wrote, “The ancient Israelites thought that they could fulfill all its requirements by themselves alone” but they could not without the Holy Spirit. Yes, many passages in the OT shows that the OT saints had the Holy Spirit.

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Dick wrote: “In the new covenant, once you truly accept Jehoshua as Jisrael's Messiah and Saviour, then FAITH/Holy Spirit will be given to you for FREE.”

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Faith has to come before you accept Yahshua and before you get into the New Covenant. What do you think faith is? How can you accept Messiah as saviour before you even believe in him?

Heb 11:6 Without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is.

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Dick wrote: “You are assuming that the covenant has been accepted by all of Jisrael. A covenant cannot be signed unless it has been accepted by the second party (people).”

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We have to clarify how a person, whether Jew or Greek, can take part in the New Covenant. How does anyone get to be part of the New Covenant? I would like an explanation from both you and T4T.

This is how I see how a person is allowed to take part in the New Covenant. They believe in the Messiah Yahshua. That’s it! Only then are they permitted to sign on to the New Covenant.

Joh 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved.
Joh 14:6 I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Ro 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Master Yahshua Messiah.

Yahshua is the door to Yahweh and we must take our very first step toward Yahweh by accepting His Son. How do we do that? We believe/faith.

The New Covenant was only with the House of Israel. So in order to take part in the New Covenant you had to be grafted into the House of Israel. Now the Jews and all other Israelites had been broken off from any agreement with Yahweh (Ro 11:20) and were now no longer sons of Abraham (Ro 9:8). The Jews and other Israelites are no longer considered descendents of Abraham. They must again become children of Abraham through the door that is Yahshua. Only after believing in Messiah can they partake of the New Covenant and be grafted back into Israel.

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Dick wrote: “Before the Mosaic covenant was signed by the blood of animals, ALL of Jisrael accepted it, thus it was fully enforced.”

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No, not all Israel! David, Solomon, Daniel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel etc. didn’t accept the Old Covenant at Mount Sinai but it was put in force anyway. Just the same with the New Covenant, you and I were not there to accept the New Covenant when it was dedicated. However, Peter, James, Mary, John and many others were there to accept the New Covenant when it was introduced.

Israel consisted of only 120 people at the bringing in of the New Covenant but by the end of the first day of the New Covenant Israel had grown to over 3000. Yes, all Israel did accept the New Covenant.

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Dick wrote: “On the otherhand, the Jews rejected the Messiah together with the new covenant (but will eventually accept it in the millenium)."

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And when the Jews accept Messiah just before or during the millennium, only then will they be part of Israel, being grafted back into their former nation.

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Dick wrote: “Only the first-fruits believers in Messiah have accepted the agreement; thus, the new covenant is only applicable to them exclusively TODAY. Truly, it has already begun, but only partially! It is currently being mediated as well--to the rest of unbelievers!”

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Of course it only applies to believers and certainly unbelievers can’t take part in it. Many thousands of New Covenant believers today are Jews but the rest of the Jews are unbelievers and so are excluded. However, when they become believers in Yahshua they will then become part of the New Covenant.

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Dick wrote: “If you contend that the new covenant is in force today in all its FULLNESS, how come many people still do not know who JHVH is?”

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And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know Yahweh: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them.

How do we get to know Yahweh? Again there is only one way/door to know Yahweh.

Mt 11:27 No man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
Joh 8:19 Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.

And so if you need to accept and know Yahshua to get into the New Covenant then you also know the Father when you are in the New Covenant and won’t have to be taught how to know Him.

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Dick wrote: “Today, we are in first phase of the New Covenant, which we call in this forum "First-Fruits" or "Interim" covenant.”

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I see no connection between “firstfruits” and “covenant” in the Bible. In fact the two words are not even found in a single verse together. “First phase” and “Interim Covenant” are also foreign to scripture.

Originally posted by brmarty: Then T4T…
Shalom and Peace to all,
I, as well as many others, have been studying this unique topic. I say "unique" topic because there are so many aspects to "covenant"(contractual)relationships between YHWH and Human Beings.
I would like to present my understanding of this relationship as briefly as possible.
Let us look at the scriptures that pertain to the "new" covenant:
KJV Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
KJV Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

The first part of this "New" covenant has been going on since the creation of man, that is:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Let us look at an example with David:
KJV Psalm 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
1. Who is creating the clean heart and putting His Spirit within David? YHWH
So, I suggest that YHWH has been fulfilling this part of the "New" covenant since Adam. For we know that only through YHWH's Spirit can we please Him. This would not constitute a difference in our current "covenant" relationship with YHWH.
I believe the difference in our current "covenant" relationship and the "New" covenant relationship YHWH is talking about is the second part of the "New" convenant defintion:
And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

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I understand what Br. Marty is trying to say. However I just can’t ignore >
KJV Jeremiah 31:31
Behold, the days come, saith Yah, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 >> NOT << according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith Yah:
33 But THIS shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; >> After those days, saith Yah,
>> I WILL PUT MY LAW IN THEIR INWARD PARTS, AND WRITE IT IN THEIR HEARTS; AND WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. <<
What does he mean by “after THOSE days”?
Well, what is he talking about? Go back up: “Behold the DAYS COME, that I will make a NEW covenant… so after “those days” that He makes this “new covenant” with us…
Then what? Then he shall start putting his laws in our “inward parts” etc.
Does it say that it will happen simultaneously? No, it doesn’t. As br. Marty pointed out, it has already been in effect with those that have “received” this “new covenant”. Such as David etc. Did it happen to Abraham, and David, and Jacob etc. all at the same time?
Now… keep in mind… this new covenant is NOT ACCORDING to the OLD that He made with our fathers coming OUT OF EGYPT… which IS “the law of Moses”!

HOW is it “Not” according to it? Well, it will now take place on the “inside” of man, and not the “outside” of man. It is the “new wine” in a “new vessel”.

I hear every word Brother Marty is saying, and bless his heart, but the scriptures do not say “Physical Israel”!!! And “what” I must ask each and every one of us, is… what gives us the right to say "physical” Israel, where can we “confirm” this?
For Yahshua the testator of the “new covenant” states quite clearly;
John 4:21 Yahshua saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

The Word translated as “Jews” > (G 2453 From G2448 "Judah" = "He shall be praised" of Hebrew origin; #3063 "Yahuwdah" = "Praised")

Does this not take place on the “inside” of man? And if it doesn’t take place on the inside, is the outside worth anything?

John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the TRUE worshippers shall worship the Father in SPIRIT and in TRUTH: for the Father SEEKETH such to worship HIM.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in >>

SPIRIT and in TRUTH.

….. "and Physically" NO... it doesn't say that now does it?
I think He WOULD have though... had it been so!

It is NOT the physical people and hearts and souls that are being “Forsaken”!

It IS… the “physical LAW with the PHYISICAL ISRAEL that IS being forsaken!

It IS the PHYSICAL PERIOD… that is being forsaken, and the physical CONCEPT of “physical Israel” !

ANYONE… that believes with all of their heart that YAH PREVAILS >>> IS <<
Of ISRAEL !

ANYONE… that praises Yah with all his or her heart DOES gain salvation from JUDAH.
For “salvation IS “OF” JUDAH” or “PRAISE YAH”.

or “Salvation is of the jews”,

but the above is more CORRECT! IF someone wants to know the “truth”.

The physical “law” not eating swine for example, is FORSAKEN…
Now I know that makes a lot of people mad at me for saying that.
But the TRUTH is… You are in a LOT more trouble if you take in …
Within yourself “condemnation”, in your heart and mind, then you are if you
Physically eat BACON!

Those that obstain from pork… are they in trouble? NO! of course not.

IF they are in trouble, it is NOT because they keep the physical law… not to eat swine, but it would be because they harbored condemnation… for others… and yes, even ourselves… but only Yah can “bring about the removing of it”. If one ASKS Him too!

Only Yah can “write His law on our inward parts”, for all that receive this “new covenant”, they shall “be HIS people”, and HE shall be their “El” or their “maker”!

“At THAT DAY, Shall a MAN LOOK TO HIS MAKER, and his EYES (understanding) shall have RESPECT or HONOUR unto the HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL (Yah Prevails!)

“it is not I that doeth the works, it is THE FATHER IN ME, HE DOETH THE WORKS!”

THIS is the “new covenant” or the new promise! THAT > Yah will perform his counsel.
That YAH will clean us up.
That YAH will cause us to walk upright…

Physically… ??? well… it says; “through His SPIRIT” and creating IN US a “new spirit”,
And a new heart, which will most surely have their outer manifestations. But it “takes place” >>>> WITHIN <<<<.

Now… one can physically keep the feast of tabernacles, and physically build a stick hut.

But unless they come to UNDERSTAND, or unless their eyes have respect unto the Holy One of Israel or the “set apart” one of Yah prevails”… and recognizes that it is truly what “we” build is but a “stick hut”, and is TEMPORARY… but what HE BUILDS IS FOREVER!

Okay… now about the “blood”.

We are not to “drink” the blood of anything.

Blood represents “death”.

“death, burial, resurrection”.
“blood, water, spirit”.

Blood is also “guilt”.
For if we speak not the truth of Yah to another, his blood or guilt, is upon us.

Howbeit, it is also the “life”.

“What don’t ye know, that lest ye die, ye shall not resurrect?”

Blood is the “soul”: For abels “blood” cried up unto Yah from the ground saying;
“cain” (possession) has slain me”. (death)

But Yahshua (Yahs salvation) takes ALL OF THE SINS, BLOOD, INIQUITY, DEATH, OF THE WORLD UPON HIM!

For by the NEW COVENANT, does YAH (HIS SALVATION) write His laws on our inward parts, etc. HE takes ALL OF THE SINS OF THE WORLD UPON HIMSELF …..

To fix! He makes it HIS PROBLEM… no longer ours! Or the works of OUR HANDS,
But HIM, and the works of HIS HANDS!

And WE >>> BECOME <<< His People! He “creates us a new creature”!

NOT like the old! It is not the old physical law with the physical Israel.

It is the “inner law” with the “inner Israel” or the inner YAH PREVAILS!

IT does not MATTER what RELIGION, CAST, sex OR COLOR you are!

IT does not matter if you keep the physical laws or not!
It does not matter what physical name you utter!

You are forgiven according to how YOU FORGIVE.
You are JUDGED, according to how YOU JUDGE!

You are given MERCY in turn for YOUR MERCY.

It is not about what WE DO… it is about what we ask YAH TO DO IN US!

“we” are not the creators of our lives. Our lives create us!

For we are “shaped and formed in iniquity”!

But ALL THINGS (even iniquity) will work for the GOOD to those that LOVE HIM!

People… Yah does not “save us”, as a way to “praise us”!
NO!
Yah saves us so that we shall love and praise him!

( Okay… that’s a little quote from a song I wrote, (smile) but it is TRUE!)

Just a little more of the song… (grin) >

“Come ye who are a hungered, and come ye who are a thirst,
buy without money or price…
for YAH DOES LOVE US FIRST.”

This is the “new covenant”… this is when we sing the song of Moses,
How that YAH IS BECOME OUR SALVATION.

THIS is the day that > “a man looks unto HIS MAKER….”

And understanding THIS is the “death” or the “blood” that we must drink.
It is in a way our OWN.

Notice it is “natural” for us to prick our finger and bring it to our mouth,
But not another’s finger. That would not be natural.

But the blood or the death that we must drink of YAHS SALVATION, is that he takes all of OURS UPON HIM TO CLEANSE…. Therefore “we” or “our control” or our “might” power, self discipline, authority, DIES… which is “death” which is also “blood”. Which then brings LIFE THROUGH HIM. And HIS WORKS. For if we “seek to save our life” or our power/authority/control etc. we loose it! If we die to all of that and look unto Yah and trust Yah to KEEP HIS PROMISE, to “perform his counsel IN US”…then we LIVE.

And we are CLEANSED BY THIS BLOOD! Or this “death”!

For all glory, DOMINION, AND POWER BELONGETH UNTO YAH.

May every knee bow and every tongue confess that YAH DOES REIGN!

Forgive your brother! If you are holding a grudge, and you can’t seem to shake it,
Talk to your maker about it. Confess unto Him that your heart is holding a grudge, but your mind (Holy of Holies) knows that you want this person to enter the kingdom, for their heart to turn unto Him. (pray for your enemies) Ask your maker, to create in you a new heart, one that will not hold a grudge, and not be about our own business, but one that will be about His. To rip in twain the veil that separates the holy place from the Most holy place, that they be ONE COMPARTMENT. So that the heart may agree with the mind or the “understanding” of the Fathers will.

And share it with others. Don’t just “tell” someone not to hold a grudge, but “witness” how to how Yah did it for you. (if you did, and He did. He has for me every time I asked Him too, so I can truly witness to it.)

My point is… what good is it to say to a bloody dead thing, don’t do, or “do”… when they are not their own creator, nor can they come out of bondage BUT BY THE CREATOR.
But rather…

“I too was this or that, and I found I didn’t like it, it made me misrable, so I cried unto my maker and reasoned with him, and asked him to create me thus and thus… and it wasn’t over night (wasn’t for me) but Yah did answer my prayer. After I talked to him about it, and asked him, my only work was to encourage my faith in His willingness toward me. And now I am not bound to the temptations that once bound me against my will or my desire of who and what I wanted to be.”

Anyway… that was for example. This is what has taken place in my life, and in me.
And I do believe it is exactly what the “new covenant” is. That we come to see that we truly do have a maker and His will or His desire is toward all who receive HIS authority and power and willingness to create them a new. Thereby they come in “his name”, or His authority or power. And He IS their salvation. Yeah, even their creator, from a to z.

love,
d’

May Yah be magnified.

I ask you,,Is then the complete fulfillment of the new covenant found in the 14400 ?

They recieve it first ?

It looks as though they are the firstfruits,
and so being,,, mabe they are the first to recieve the new covenent in Its strength ..

I totally agree with you that the new covenant (and the old) is exclusively between JHVH and Jisrael. Nobody can enter into that covenant (together with all its components, stipulations and promises) unless you become part of the PHYSICAL Jisrael. Talk of the "Spiritual Israel" should be reserved for another post because it is part of the promise of the new covenant; besides, it is obviously reserved for future fulfillment because we have not yet been literally BORN-AGAIN as spiritual beings. The Heavenly Jerusalem is not here yet.

A gentile can become be a citizen of the commonwealth of Jisrael once he believes that Jehoshua of Nazareth is the Messiah. Ephesians 1-3 explains this in detail. The question now is, to what tribe are we grafted in? It is my belief that when one accepts messiah TODAY, he/she is PHYSICALLY (and eventually SPIRITUALLY, as promised) grafted into Jisrael under the Tribe of Joseph/Ephraim. for it is written in Genesis 48:19, when Jacob said in his blessing:

"...but truly his [Manasseh] younger brother [Ephraim] shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations. 20 And he [Jacob] blessed them that day, saying, In thee shall Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh: and he set Ephraim before Manasseh."

And then in Jacob's blessing to Joseph, he says in Genesis 49:22:

"Joseph is a fruitful bough, even a fruitful bough by a well; whose BRANCHES run over the WALL..."

In the rest of Jacob's blessing, Joseph is being alluded to Jehoshua Messiah, foretelling the words of Paul in Ephesians 2:14:

"For he [Jehoshua] is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle WALL of partition between us [Jews and Gentiles]."

Truly, the WALL has been broken down and run over by the branches of Jehoshua Messiah in order to invite the gentiles to Jisrael!

Moses himself sings about Joseph in his blessing in Genesis 33:16-17:

"And for the precious things of the earth and fulness thereof, and for the good will of him that dwelt in the bush: let the blessing come upon the head of Joseph, and upon the top of the head of him that was separated from his brethren [Jehoshua]. His [Jehoshua] glory is like the firstling of his bullock, and his horns are like the horns of unicorns: with them he shall push the people together to the ends of the earth: and they are the ten thousands of Ephraim, and they are the thousands of Manasseh."

The concept of believing in the Messiah is actually a very complex matter. It is not as simple as it sounds, for the term "Messiah" encompasses everything that is in the Holy Scriptures. When the disciples were preaching outside Israel, for the most part, they were speaking with the people of Jisrael in diaspora, people who were quite familiar with the Scriptures. Majority of the Christians today miss the whole point of Jehoshua being the "Messiah", that is why they have abandoned the Torah, treating it "as a strange thing", as it is written in Hosea 8:11-12:

"Because Ephraim hath made many altars to sin, altars shall be unto him to sin. 12 I have written to him the great things of my law {Torah}, but they were counted as a strange thing."

Let us help--not hate--Christianity (heart-hardened part of Ephraim) by teaching them the Torah, in the same manner that we should help--not hate--the Jews by introducing them to Jehoshua (or Yehoshua/Y'shua in their Ashkenazi dialect) Messiah!

I'd like to point out that accepting Jehoshua as the Messiah only covers the citizenship issue, meaning it does not bind you to the new covenant. You still need to formally sign the agreement. For that prupose, you need circumcision of the heart, that is, to be baptised by water so that the Holy Spirit can reside in you. The moment the Holy Spirit is begotten in you, you become part of the new covenant.

In the same manner, the Israelites were also baptised in water before receiving the old covenant, when they crossed the Red Sea. However, the Holy Spirit was not automatically imparted to them, because the old covenant had no such stipulation, unlike the new, when JHVH said that He will write the Torah in our hearts (through the Holy Spirit).

You asked:
"Faith has to come before you accept Yahshua and before you get into the New Covenant. What do you think faith is? How can you accept Messiah as saviour before you even believe in him?"

I regard FAITH in the Messiah and FAITH provided by the Holy Spirit as two separate matters. It is quite apparent that you have classified both occassions as one. In my view, believing in the Messiah requires your OWN FREE WILL alone--it is an option. On the otherhand, FAITH that is provided by the Holy Spirit is a gift separate from our being: it dictates what we should do and helps us fight temptation and follow the Torah. When you believe in the Messiah on your own free will, the Holy Spirit shall be given to you--in part or in whole--and then you will become righteous because the Torah has been written in your heart.

Of course the term "interim covenant" is not in the scriptures, but I believe the concept is there. We are using the term to make our discussion clear. I hope that you consider the thought that the two covenants may need to be delivered to the people in phases, as a form of affirmation. The old covenant was first given at Horeb, and then after 40 years of cleansing the people, it was re-affirmed, prior to entering the promised land. Why not so for the new covenant? It was introduced by Jehoshua once. After 40 Jubilees of cleansing the people (i.e. 2,000 years), can it not be re-affirmed as well?

The time is near when King Jehoshua Messiah returns to earth with all His glory, and mediate the new covenant to the WHOLE of resurrected Jisrael, in the same manner that Moses mediated the old covenant before entering the promised land.

All glory belongs to JHVH and His Son.

You ask me: “Is then the complete fulfillment of the new covenant found in the 14400 ? They recieve it first ? “

Well, I would think so… they are the first fruits of something: >

Revelation 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto Yah and to the Lamb.

of the tribes sealed, 12,000 ea:

Judah (Praise Yah), Reuben (behold a son), Gad (a troop/army/host), Asher (blessing/ to make right), Nepthalim (wrestling), Manasses (forgetting), Simeon (harkening), Levi (Joined), Issachar (reward), Zabulon (a habitation), Joseph (Yah has added),
Benjamin (son of the right hand).

Notice "Ephraim ("double ash heap": "I shall be doubly fruitful") and "Dan": (Judge)... are not of the 144,000 sealed.

Dan or “judge” is obvious… but the “I shall be doubly fruitful”, I think Is when we are very satisfied with the “works of our hands”, and feel we have accomplished or overcome a thing and feel good about “ourselves” or our strength, control or what have you… and expect to be “rewarded” for it.

For Yahshua warns that those who “do” and receive the approval of men (this includes ourself), have received their reward. Because in truth, it is not our accomplishment, but Yahs.

Those that are of the mind that Yah accomplishes all things, still await their reward. Reward for what? For having faith in Him that He is good and faithful and willing. What is their reward? I would think it is the manifestation or the realization of the “Hope” that they put in Him to be made whole.

“To receive it in it’strength.”?

I do not know the answer to this question.
It makes sense that they would be the first to receive it in it’s strength.

If they were the first to “conceive”… it seems they would be the first to manifest, or be brought forth. Somehow though I think there is more to it.
Because I am of the mind that David is one of the 144,000. And Isaiah.

I am of this mind because it is obvious in their writings that the Name of the Father or the Power and authority of the Father was sealed in their mind.

Nothing stood in the way of the fact that Yah has all dominion, And they reasoned from there.

But then after the 144,000, come the multitude of tongues, nations and peoples, in white robes... that have come out of great tribulation, and say;
"Amen, blessing, and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving, and honour, and power and might, BE UNTO OUR ELOHIM FOREVER AND EVER.

Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Zion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

I think the 144,000 are the first to have Yahs "name' or the understanding that it is by HIS POWER, AUTHORITY, CONTROL, DOING, CLEANSING, PERFORMING ETC... that they are made a new creature. They are the first to "understand" this. Or have HIS NAME (Power/authority) sealed into their mind.
Knowing it is not by their own power/might/authority/name, but His.

And they let others know it, and they too become cleansed by the blood of the lamb,or by understanding that Yahshua (Yahs salvation) takes the sin of the world upon HIMSELF, to cleanse.

For Yahs salvation speaks to Peter and says; “if I do not wash your feet, ye shall have no part in me”.

I believe “feet” to be “walk”.

Peter basically says; in that case, wash my whole body. And Yahshua answers; “if I wash your feet, ye are CLEAN EVERY WHERE”.

“Every where” to me, means through and through!

Makes me think “white”.

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

All I know is, once I came to understand that there was no authority or power outside of Yah.
I came to understand that the principalities or “powers” of “darkness” was in truth…
lack of understanding, that we fight against.
It is not flesh and blood that we war with, but it is lack of understanding that we war with. “lack of understanding” is the “principality” or the power or the “effect” of darkness.

If one does not understand that Yah is in control, of all things. (children know this).
Then one is in darkness.

The only “difference” in one human to another, is whether or not they know this.
Their physical walk will be the same, their entire life, ordained, from birth to death…
But the inner life is quite different I would think.

And… I was given a new song… and it is…
“Yahs desire is toward us”.
And if it is toward us, then it is not against us.
As the accuser would have me and every one else believe.

Is this the song of the 144,000? I have no way knowing.
I only know what Yah has done in me.

Amazingly to me, people find it hard to give Yah 100% control. They want to believe they have a hand in things.

I never wanted a hand in things. I wanted my hand out of it.
I never much liked what my hand brought.

I only want to know and worship the Creator.

Howbeit, one of the first lessons that took almost 40 years to learn was…

That the “creator” that I so desired to worship
WAS/IS The… > CREATOR!

And that nothing was created, that wasn’t created, by him.
There is no other. And my hand disappeared.
As if it was a delusion.

When I was of the mind that I was the maker of my life, I did not know who I worshipped. I worshipped someone above the moon sun and stars… but I did not know who and what I worshipped. >> My ‘maker’.

Once I came to know the truth, that Yah is authority of all things in existence.
My “work” was to believe in His goodness… and my hope was that all condemnation would be cast out of me.

My song, is declaring His victory. Because Yah is good. And it is His will that none be lost.

Yah is not against souls. He is against His enemies. We who take credit for the works of his hands, sit in the temple of Yah (our bodies) and show ourselves to be Yah, when we are of the mind that “we” are in control. Just because we came to “know” or be intimate with… good and evil, does not mean we “control” it.

But He will avenge himself of his enemies. By causing us to see the truth. And His two edged sword, saves the truth, and slays the lies. It chops off our head, or our “own authority”, then we are a martyr of Yah, 100 % putting ourselves in His hands. And his hosts or the force of His power… “eats the flesh of Kings (High authority), to the lowest and common man. (Lowest of authority), the truth eats their flesh right off of them, when they come to see that they have no authority. But all dominion belongs to Yah.

BecauseYah is good. We can then believe in His Will toward us.
And become HIS People, and He our maker, our sovereign. Our savior.

As He circumcises our hearts, we come closer and closer to obeying the first commandment. This too is His work. His accomplishment. His Glory.

We may choose to trust Him to do it, or trust ourselves.
That is the “choice” we have.

Faith IS “Trust”. THAT is what “faith” IS.
It is ‘trust’.

“believe in me” means “trust me”.
Have faith in me is to “trust me”.

For we “serve” who we “trust”.
And our words, are our fruits.

If I am of the mind that I must do it. Then I must put trust in myself To get the job done.

Then my words or my fruits to another would be something like “you must do it”.
And by my words I accuse and charge someone with a work. And I imply a burden from Yah.

If I am of the mind that Yah does it.
Then my words are more like.

“If He did it for me, He’ll do it for you, he is no respecter of persons. Talk to him! Turn to him, if you would for yours, how much more is He willing…”

If one has a problem with Lying, they can turn to their maker and ask, and reason, and pray, that it be purged and kept far from them.

I did.

It seems to me Yah first reveals truth “inside” and keeps you from lying to yourself, before you can really stop lying to others.

His ways are not our ways. We go from the outside in, He from the inside out.

This is what I have been given.
I didn’t just figure it out. I am not that smart. I am very blonde.
But deep down, the spirit within me knows this is the truth.

It is all about “His” work, not ours. His salvation, not ours.
His promise, not ours. His glory, which he shares with us.
Because He loved us first. And He is most wonderful, to all who put their trust in Him.

And though we fight “doubt” or “sin” daily, We cling to His name or His authority and power and ability to bring a thing about. And by this we overcome the giants or the sin and doubt in the land that has been given us, even our very bodies.

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Dick wrote: “I totally agree with you that the new covenant (and the old) is exclusively between JHVH and Jisrael. Nobody can enter into that covenant (together with all its components, stipulations and promises) unless you become part of the PHYSICAL Jisrael.”

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Ro 2:28 For he is NOT a Jew, which is one outwardly (physically); neither is that (physical) circumcision, which is outward in the flesh.

Since the Jews rejected and crucified Messiah they are no longer considered by Yahweh part of Israel. The Jews physical/outward/bloodline inheritance no longer qualifies them as Israel. As well their physical circumcision means nothing.

Col 2:11-12 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Messiah. Buried with him in baptism.

The new circumcision is through baptism in Messiah, required by Gentiles and old physical Israel when one is grafted into Israel through the new door, Yahshua.

Php 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Messiah Yahshua, and have no confidence in the flesh.

I disagree with you that the New Covenant is with physical Israel.

Ro 9:6 They are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham (bloodline), are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh (bloodline), these are NOT the children of God: but the children of the PROMISE are counted for the seed.

They which are the children of the physical flesh are NOT now the children of God.

Ga 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Messiah.

The promise was not made to physical descendants of Abraham but to only one single descendant, Messiah.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Messiah Yahshua. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Messiah have put on Messiah. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Messiah Yahshua. 29 And if ye be Messiah’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

No longer Jews or Gentiles but are all the new Israel by faith and thus Abraham’s descendants.

Ro 4:14 For if they which are of the law (physical Jews) be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect.

After all if physical Israel became heirs of the promise then faith is a joke.

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Dick wrote: “Nobody can enter into that covenant (together with all its components, stipulations and promises) unless you become part of the PHYSICAL Jisrael. Talk of the "Spiritual Israel" should be reserved for another post because it is part of the promise of the new covenant; besides, it is obviously reserved for future fulfillment because we have not yet been literally BORN-AGAIN as spiritual beings. The Heavenly Jerusalem is not here yet.”

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How then does a Gentile become a part of PHYSICAL Israel?

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Dick wrote: “I regard FAITH in the Messiah and FAITH provided by the Holy Spirit as two separate matters. It is quite apparent that you have classified both occassions as one. In my view, believing in the Messiah requires your OWN FREE WILL alone--it is an option.”

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Well, this free will thing needs a thread of its own and I am of the belief that we are predestined and don’t have a choice of our own or a free will in regards to salvation but depend on the will of Yahweh.

Mt 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him.
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world.

If we don’t do the choosing but are chosen then can we say it is our choice?

Ro 9:15 He saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called.

It is not of you or I that “willeth” but Yahweh only. Some are predestined (created for the purpose) for destruction in the lake of fire while others are predestined for salvation.

Ro 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified.
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Yahshua Messiah to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that NOT OF YOURSELVES: it is the gift of God:

We are called, “According to the good pleasure of HIS will.” HIS will, not our free will, where does this idea of our free will come from? Our faith is not of ourselves but a gift of God.

If, as you say, “Believing in the Messiah requires your OWN FREE WILL alone--it is an option” then what percentage of the credit for your own salvation do you take credit for? Even if it is 1% you and 99% Yahweh that would still conflict with scripture.

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Dick wrote: “The old covenant was first given at Horeb, and then after 40 years of cleansing the people, it was re-affirmed, prior to entering the promised land.”

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No, the covenant at Horeb (Sinai) and the covenant at Moab were two separate covenants.

The FIRST covenant with Moses, #1 at Horeb [another name for Sinai], was established at the start of the 40 years in the desert. It was here where Yahweh took the Israelites as His “peculiar people.”

Ex 19:5 IF ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, THEN ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
Ex 29:45 I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will be their God.
Le 26:12 I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people.
De 7:6 Thou art an holy people unto Yahweh thy God: Yahweh thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

This first of two covenants with Moses established Israel as Yahweh’s chosen people. They were not His chosen before this, the agreement was: Yahweh would take them on as His chosen People and be their God IF they would obey His voice. Only this covenant and the New Covenant were dedicated with blood.

The 2nd covenant with Moses’ at Moab was at the end of the forty years as they were about to enter the promised land. All of the ones whom the first covenant at Sinai was established with, were now dead, with the exception of Joshua, Caleb and of course Moses. This 2nd covenant was based on the same commandments as the first, however Yahweh now, having established them as His peculiar people with the first covenant, puts in this covenant the promise of great blessings if they obey His law.

De 29:1 These are the words of the covenant, which Yahweh commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, BESIDE the covenant which he made with them in Horeb (Sinai).
De 29:9 Keep therefore the words of this covenant, and do them, that ye may PROSPER IN ALL THAT YE DO.

#2 Covenant: Again Israel is to obey; this time Yahweh will prosper His ALREADY chosen people.

So the first covenant at Mt Sinai (the old covenant in the NT) had nothing to do with being blessed or prospering, it was only establishing the Israelites as Yahweh’s peculiar people and Him as their God. This is exactly the arrangement of the new covenant with the House of Israel.

Jer 31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith Yahweh, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and WILL BE THEIR GOD, and they shall BE MY PEOPLE. see He 8:8-13.

The new covenant is the same as the old (Moses' #1) in that Yahweh “will be their God” (Jer 31:33, Heb 8:10). The old covenant with Moses says the same, Yahweh “will be their God” (Ex 29:45).

The old covenant states Ex 19:5 “ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people, 6 a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation.” The new covenant states exactly the same, “they shall be to me a people” Heb 8:10, “a peculiar people” Tit 2:14, “a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people” 1Pe2:9.

Both the old and new covenants have the exact same wording. The promise of both the old and new covenants was and is Eternal life.

NEW COVENANT: Heb 9:15 They which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

OLD COVENANT: He 11:39 And these all, (OT saints) having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: (of eternal life) 40 God having provided (#4265 foreseen) some better thing for us, THAT THEY WITHOUT US should not be made perfect.

The OT saints expected more then earthly prosperity from Yahweh, they were looking for eternal life, see Job 19:26-27; Is 25:8, 26:19; Eze 37: 1-14; Ho 6:2, 13:14; Dan 12:2. They knew and were promised resurrection unto eternal life. The great cloud of witnesses mentioned in Hebrews suffered and died “That they might obtain a better resurrection” (He 11:35), resurrected eternal.

Many people when speaking of the Old Covenant are referring to the 2nd covenant at Moab, as they were about to take the promised land, this 2nd one dealt with earthly, national promises and not the 1st one at Mount Sinai, which promised eternal life.

De 29:1 These are the words of the covenant, which Yahweh commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, BESIDE the covenant which he made with them in Horeb (Sinai).

Yah be with you.

Well, I just wanted to say that I really enjoyed your post.
I love how you teach scripture with scripture.

And as far as "free will"...
we are in complete agreement!

May Yah continue to bless you, that you may continue to bless us.

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Originally posted by Dave52:

Since the Jews rejected and crucified Messiah they are no longer considered by Yahweh part of Israel.

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Shalom Dave,

I guess you and I do not see eye to eye on a range of issues here. Some quick comments...

The Jews did not crucify Messiah. The ROMANS did. They were Gentiles.

SOME Jews consented to this. But THE Jews did not. Neither did THE Israelites.

All of the twelve Apostles and the first several thousand believers (and according to some accounts many many tens of thousands of later believers prior to and after the 70 AD destruction) were Jews. So how can you say the Jews rejected Messiah?

I look around the world... it appears to me that the Gentiles are rejecting Messiah left and right. Yet not a peep about "the Gentiles that rejected Messiah". Interesting.

As to the physical nation of Israel being restored, the prophets declare it will be done. Ezekial 37's prophecies of the valley of dry bones and of the coming together of the two sticks of Judah and Israel are some quick citings I can give. The book of Hosea gives another picture of Israel (Ephraim) and Judah in the last days being reconciled.

But the valley of the dry bones, that is a very real and very physical resurrection as best I can tell. Gentiles have always been able and will always be able to graft into physical Israel.

There will always be a physical Israel. There is no replacement theology. The physical commonwealth of Yisrael is open to all, no doubt. All can be engrafted to this nation, this physical nation of Yisrael.

You have written much and I will comment more as time allows. Dick is doing a fine job however and I am getting a lot from the both of you so don't let me interfere in the meantime!

Shalom,
T4T

Brethren T4T said:
"There will always be a physical Israel. There is no replacement theology. The physical commonwealth of Yisrael is open to all, no doubt. All can be engrafted to this nation, this physical nation of Yisrael."

Amen to that! In my mind, Replacement Theology represents the worst of anti-Semitism because it corrupts our understanding of Scriptures. It is Roman Catholic in origin, propagated by Satan through Agustine in the early years of Christendom. Although we may be diverting our discussion from the issue of covenants, I must bring it to attention, lest people who read this thread believe in it, or even consider it. Any form of anti-Semitism has no place in my Theology--or anybody else's. True, at this time the Jews are out of the olive tree, but let us help them be re-grafted in and not boast, for it is a certainty that they will be accepted again! Paul in his address to the gentiles in Romans 11:18 clearly warns all people who have been grafted in not to be arrogant:

"Do not boast against the branches [the unbelieving Jews]; and if thou dost boast, thou dost not bear the root, but the root thee! .... for if God the natural branches did not spare—lest perhaps He also shall not spare thee. Lo, then, goodness and severity of God—upon those indeed who fell, severity; and upon thee, goodness, if thou mayest remain in the goodness, otherwise, thou also shalt be cut off."

In defense of the PHYSICAL Israel that takes exclusive part of the old AND new covenants, Paul says of the Jews who belong to PHYSICAL Jisrael in Romans 9:1-5:

"Truth I say in Christ, I lie not, my conscience bearing testimony with me in the Holy Spirit, that I have great grief and unceasing pain in my heart—for I was wishing, I myself, to be anathema from the Christ—for my brethren, my kindred, according to the flesh, who are Israelites, whose is the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the lawgiving, and the service, and the promises, whose are the fathers, and of whom is the Christ, according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed to the ages. Amen."

After verse 5, Paul gives comfort to the gentiles who are not physically connected to Jisrael by saying:

"What, then, shall we say? unrighteousness is with God [implies the question: is He a racist?]? let it not be! for to Moses He saith, ‘I will do kindness to whom I do kindness, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion [pertaining to the gentiles]..."

The truth of the Scriptures is, PHYSICAL Jisrael is alive and well today, and the gentiles can be grafted in through the door that is J'shua Messiah. In fact, all of the dead Jisraelites of the past shall be resurrected in the flesh when King Jehoshua arrives and declares the new covenant to all 12 tribes! As it is written in Ezekiel 37:

"The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones, 2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry. 3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest. 4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD. 5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live: 6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD. 7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone. 8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them."

I believe this PHYSICAL resurrection shall literally be fulfilled to Jisrael. Even the patriarchs had known about this event that is why the chose their bones to be placed in Canaan, as it is written in the ff:

1. Burial of Jacob in Genesis 50:13
"And his sons did unto him according as he commanded them: 13 For his sons carried him into the land of Canaan, and buried him in the cave of the field of Machpelah, which Abraham bought with the field for a possession of a buryingplace of Ephron the Hittite, before Mamre." (Abraham, Sarah, Isaac were all buried in the same place.)

2. Last will of Joseph at this deathbed in Genesis 50:24
"And Joseph said unto his brethren, I die: and God will surely visit you, and bring you out of this land unto the land which he sware to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob. 25 And Joseph took an oath of the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you, and ye shall carry up my bones from hence. 26 So Joseph died, being an hundred and ten years old: and they embalmed him, and he was put in a coffin in Egypt."

3. Transfer of Joseph's bones in Exodus 13:19
"And Moses took the bones of Joseph with him [and bring them to Canaan]: for he had straitly sworn the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you; and ye shall carry up my bones away hence with you."

Truly, the bones of Jacob and Joseph shall be part of Ezekiel's prophecy about the Valley of the Dry Bones!

Rejection of a PHYSICAL Jisrael implies a rejection of its resurrection. If you do not believe in the physical resurrection of Jisreal, then what are these bones for? Why are they of utmost importance to Joseph, to the point of making it his last will and testament?

I am sorry, but people who claim that they are part of the so-called SPIRITUAL Jisrael TODAY are not being true to themselves. The spirit may be dwelling in you as unto a human fetus, but you are not yet re-born fully as SPIRITUAL and IMMORTAL being. You are still made of flesh and blood, and therefore can only be part of the PHYSICAL Jisrael--at least for now.

As for the old covenant actually being 2 separate covenants, you said:
"This first of two covenants with Moses established Israel as Yahweh’s chosen people. They were not His chosen before this, the agreement was: Yahweh would take them on as His chosen People and be their God IF they would obey His voice. Only this covenant and the New Covenant were dedicated with blood."

If you believe that TWO SEPARATE covenants were mediated by Moses, how come only the "first" one was dedicated with blood. How can the "second" covenant given (as you claim) be IN EFFECT without blood? Are you saying that the "second" covenant given to Moses was inferior and superficial when compared to the "first"? Covenants (or agreements) are supposed to supersede one another sequentially, as in any legal transaction of man, right?

Also, in your other post you said:
"After Moses sprinkled the blood for the Old Covenant it was in force and could not be changed. The same with the New covenant, after Yahshua sprinkled his blood in heaven (Heb 9:12) the covenant was in force and could not be altered."

If you claim that the first covenant given to Moses was dedicated with blood and that it can not be changed, why was there a "second" covenant given to Moses? If ever there was indeed a "second" separate covenant, shouldn't the "first" covenant be superceded by the "second", in the same way that the old covenant is being made obsolete by the new covenant mediated by Jehoshua Messiah?

I respect your beliefs. However, these contradictions tend to give favor to the concept that there was ONLY ONE covenant given to Moses (Exodus), and that it was only re-inforced before entering the promised land (Deuteronomy). I stand by my position that the two covenants found in Exodus and Deuteronomy are one and the same, a single old covenant that was given in 2 phases.

All glory belongs to JHVH.

P.S. I will be on vacation for 5 days, so forgive me if I am unable to reply. Peace!

11. And He said to me, “Son of man, these bones are all the house of Yisra’el. See, they say, Our bones are dry, our expectancy has perished, and we ourselves have been cut off! (ISR Version)

This people had been cut off. Their hope was lost (KJV). These were they who broke the first covenant and were cut off from Israel. Now they have hope!

That is indeed good news! Christianity teaches us the good news is that 90 percent or more of the world's population is "going to hell" and only very few will ever be saved.

I like Ezekial's version of the good news a lot better!

According to Ezekial, YHWH says this resurrection is "The Whole House of Israel".

At Eze. 37:8 in the ISR we find: "And I looked and saw sinews and flesh came upon them, and skin covered them, but there was no spirit in them."

No spirit in them! They are not merely spiritual beings because spirit was then breathed into their lifeless bodies of bone, sinew and flesh and they stood on their feet. They are physical and they are Yisrael!

There's lots more scriptural proofs of the continuity of physical Israel.

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

These firstfruits are of the tribes of Israel.

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

It is not said that this multitude is of the tribes of Israel but of all the tribes of the earth. No doubt they will be grafted into Israel, but in contrast to the 144,000 which ARE of the tribes of Israel they are said to be from the other tribes of the earth.

Dave, you said "The Jews physical/outward/bloodline inheritance no longer qualifies them as Israel."

I must ask then, why are the several tribes of Israel mentioned (even named by tribe) in Revelation if what you say is true?

Eze 37:21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Master YHWH; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land

22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their Elohim.

24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

They will dwell in the LAND that YHWH gave to Jacob. Land is physical. Jacob was a physical man. YHWH says that these (The whole House of Israel, now united with the House of Judah) and their children and their children's children forever will live. That they will abandon their idols and transgressions (remember, they were once cut off for violation of the first covenant... they sinned agains YHWH and had lost all hope!) and they will be cleansed.

Paul said all of Israel will be saved. Just because a small percentage of the leadership of "the Jews" encouraged the Romans to kill the Messiah does not abrogate what YHWH has determined for the House of Israel and the House of Judah. They WILL live again and WILL be flesh, sinew and bone, and they will live on the LAND.

This sure sounds like a physical Israel to me.

Ezekial 47:21 So shall ye divide this land unto you according to the tribes of Israel.

22 And it shall come to pass, that ye shall divide it by lot for an inheritance unto you, and to the strangers that sojourn among you, which shall beget children among you: and they shall be unto you as born in the country among the children of Israel; they shall have inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel.

People of the other nations will still be able to graft into this physical nation of Israel as it is written.

There is so much more to write... and I will probably write more on this based on the scriptures. I don't see how replacement theology teachings can possibly overcome just what has been covered here and say that Israel or "the Jews" are cut off never to be a nation again and now it's only Gentiles who are saved and who will be made into a new spiritual entity called "Israel".

How would these Gentiles be divided up according to the "tribes of Israel"? Each of the tribes are going to be there. The very idea of "tribe" includes the sub-ideas of very physical things like "family", "offspring", "inheritance", etc.

Replacement theology just doesn't compute in my humble opinion.