quote:

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Originally posted by Dick:
http://www.lightofmashiach.org/newcovenant.html

That is dangerous Theology right there. What use is there to be good and patient now? If the New Covenant is still not in effect, even for the elect first-fruits, then what do we hope for? There will be no reward without a covenant.

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Shalom Dick,

If what you say is true, then many who think they have life now in the New Covenant are deceiving themselves. That is if they have committed any transgressions against the New Covenant.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of YHWH, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was set apart, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of favor?

I maintain that the New Covenant has not been accepted by Israel or Judah yet, just like that website says. If they had, they would all be together in the land, and they would not stumble, they will not sin (transgress) anymore (Jeremiah 31:9).

Backing up in Hebrews 10 we'll find more evidence that it is yet future.

10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith YHWH, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; (reiterating what Jeremiah wrote)

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. (YHWH is still remembering sin today)

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. (if you are under the New Covenant today, you better not sin again ever)

19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Y'shua,

20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

21 And having an high priest over the house of YHWH;

22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. (water baptism now, washed in the blood later - see Rev. 7:14)

23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised) (We are in an age of promise, hope and faith, much as Abraham was, under the Melchisidek priesthood).

24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: (In the New Covenant, we will not have to provoke one another to love and good works, we will have that on our hearts, each and every one of YHWH's people, Israel)

25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. (The day of the New Covenant is approaching but not yet here. As we wait for it, the closer we get to it, the more we need to assemble and exhort one another.)

Earlier in Hebrews we read similar warnings for transgressors of the New Covenant:

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,

5 And have tasted the good word of YHWH, and the powers of the world to come, (Who among us has tasted of the powers of the world to come? We are only living in shadows of that world and none of us truly know of the powers of that world to come)

(But just in case someone thinks they have tasted the powers of the world to come, it is expressly stated that it is IMPOSSIBLE...)
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of YHWH afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Repeating for emphasis again from Hebrews 10...

Hebrews 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of YHWH, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was set apart, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of favor?

My understanding is that once you have entered into the New Covenant, you will not sin. You will not stumble at all, period. Those who these verses in Hebrews discusses are not stumblers. They are outright rebels who are deceived by satan after his release from the chains when he once again goes and deceives the nations. They will be charging with their fists raised at YHWH and will do this abomination against the blood of the covenant, the blood of their only and last hope, Y'shua haMaschiach.

My humble opinion. I do not see this as "dangerous theology" at all.

I see this as a blessed hope for most of mankind. Therefore, I preach the good news of the Kingdom of YHWH and extend hope to many people who thought they had none. I'm under a blessing of promise of this New Creation to come. That is my hope. Therein lies the promise. I have faith that YHWH will accomplish all that He has said He will do.

This motivates me all the more so to do His will now, here, in the present world. I assemble with my brethren and we exhort each other to love and good works.

If I'm wrong on any of this, may YHWH straighten me out and show me the errors of my ways.

YHWH richly bless you,
T4T

Dick wrote: --because that is our reward for complying with the New Covenant, a covenant that is PARTLY in effect.

Jay’s comment: The renewed covenant is FULLY in effect. Our finite minds just cannot grasp it. A day with Yah is equal to 1000 years. That means that in terms of infinity (or immortality) this earth is but 6 days old.

The basic terms of the covenant are: If you obey my voice, I will be your God and you will be my people.

For those who obey his voice there are seventy blessings that are GUARANTEED while we are still physically here on earth and a new, ressurected immortal body when Messiah returns.

ALL of this is in effect NOW, and as long as we persevere and continually run the race, we will attain the crown.

Acts 2 speaks of the beginning of this renewed covenant. (2:16 this is the beginning of that which was spoken by the prophet Joel)

Another issue that hasn’t been resolved is the subject of MEDIATOR.

Until we approach a certain level of perfection we need a mediator

I submit that Adam was at that level at creation (He at least talked with an angel of Yah) and of course, at least temporarily, went down hill from there.

Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses and the Prophets, to name a few, seemed to have reached that level of perfection.

Noah was a mediator for his sons (the flood baptized them into Noah)
Abraham was a mediator for his sons, his cousin and the 390 men who followed him.
Abrahams mediator was Melchizidec
Moses was a mediator for Israel
The levites (priests) were the mediators for Israel after Moses
John the baptist was a mediator for Messiah (for a short time)
Messiah is our mediator

The levites abrogated their job as mediator, so a new one was needed. That scripture in Hebrews – “finding fault with them” – the “them” isn’t the people but the priests. We, the people, needed a new mediator because the old ones perverted the Torah with the commands of men.

If there is anything “new” in the renewed covenant, it is that the levitical priesthood was replaced by the Melchizidec Priesthood. Otherwise it is the same – “If you obey my voice, I will be your God and You will be my people”.

As I have repeatedly stated in my previous posts, I do agree with you that at the present time, the New Covenant has not been accepted by the WHOLE house of Jisrael (composed of Ephraim and Judah). However, a remnant of Jisrael already has. I call this remnant the "First-Fruits", who are basically baptized Messianic/Torah believers of today. That is what I meant when I said that the New Covenant is "PARTLY" in effect.

With regard to the flesh not capable of sinning, that is unscriptural in my humble opinion. Paul himself testified many times that while in the flesh, he was vulnerable--that is why we have to ENDURE and be PATIENT until we are born-again as spiritual beings when the Messiah comes back. I believe that unless we are reborn as Immortal Spiritual Beings, we are vulnerable to sin.

Ezekiel's Valley of the Dry Bones and the following chapters illustrate the future where the Tribes of Joseph (First-Fruits Children of Promise--resurrected immortal spiritual Beings), Ephraim (resurrected physical human beings of the Northern Kingdom tribes) and Judah (resurrected physical human beings of the Southern Kingdom tribes) shall be assembled together by Jehovah Jeshua HaMashiach to form one stick and battle all evil on this earth.

Your explanation of the subject I like very much! Have you a web-article for me on it?

Blessings!
Eugenie

PS: with this your post on page 13 of this thread I suddenly understand your post on page 4 of this thread a lot better. Thank you for having posted anew!

I believe another major misunderstanding is that “the kingdom of the Israel of Yahweh isn’t here yet”. Yah began His kingdom in the Garden of Eden. It failed to continue to produce an increase so he pruned it (the flood). He continued it with Noah up through Abraham to Moses (just as a mustard seed – the smallest of seeds) and watered Israel which blossomed for a short time.

If Israel would have “obeyed his voice” they would have taken over the entire world. (that was their their assigned task) If you read the scriptures concerning the boundaries of Israel, they extend to the Persian Gulf in the east. (that’s modern day Kuwait and most of Iraq) If they would have continued in the Torah, they would have found that the entire world’s governments would have actually been forced to convert and accept their covenant (contract) The Law is designed to compel it. For instance – the law concerning usury. It is well established in economics that usury will eventually cause the downfall of a government. Israel could not charge usury inside their country but they could charge usury to any government outside of Israel. In Solomon’s time they were well on their way – even the queen of Sheba was astounded.

But of course we know that Israel failed, PRIMARILY because of their leaders, the kings and priesthood. They failed their assigned task (love of money is the root of all evil). There was a series of punishments, repentance, return to Torah, and the cycle was repeated over and over. (what a patient Creator, i.e. Father)

So at the fullness of time Yah continued his Plan (He knew all this would happen, see Exodus) and sent the Messiah to Israel to give the leaders one last chance. They of course rejected Messiah, and Yah destroyed Israel in 70 AD.

But Messiah established provisions for the continuance of the Kingdom of the Israel of Yahweh for all those who the Father has “called and chosen”. The father is in the process of calling out the leaders (kings and priests) of his kingdom. He has provisions for the subjects but He is not concerned with the final establishment of them yet. No one can come to the Messiah except the Father calls them and He is only calling the leaders right now. He is replacing the levites with the order of Melchizidec. And they will reign with Messiah for 1000 years.

Now what good is a reign without subjects? After He gathers all the nations to battle, in a great cataclysmic war, the physical survivors, who Yah protects, will gather all the physical surviving descendants of Israel and carry them to Israel. The temple will be rebuilt according to Ezekial 40 and the physical nation of the kingdom of Yahweh will be re-established in Jerusalem and will FINALLY and CONTINUALLY begin living according to the Voice of Yahweh. Remember, a 1000 years is as a day, and the “Day of the Lord” will be a thousand year reign of Messiah and his called out ones over physical Israel and quite rapidly over an entire believing world.

Can you imagine what this world will be like when for One Thousand Years it is run according to the Torah? One of the main goals during that thousand years will be to prepare for the 2nd ressurection which will occur at the end. (feast of tabernacles) At the end of the thousand years every one who has ever lived will be resurrected and each and every one will THEN BE CALLED BY THE FATHER. They will be resurrected into a Torah Keeping world that has kept the Torah without the influence of satan (he will be in the pit) and will live what appears to be an average life of 100 years according to scripture. They aren’t necessarily going to have a second chance, but really their first chance, since they weren’t Called and Chosen the first time. At the end of this 100 years Satan is loosed for a short while, another cataclysmic war, and all the survivors attain a new eternal body and all the dead cease to exist forever.

Since the growth of His Kingdom will never cease, there should be plenty to do from then on.

PS: Oh, I forgot judgement. Just as we are now being judged now, (Judgement begins at the house of Yah)at the beginning of the 2nd resurrection, those who are resurrected will be convicted right to the quick of their hearts and will be judged througout their 100 year lives.

Jay

WHAT IS BORN AGAIN?

All the churches of God teach that none of their members have received a spiritual birth - been reborn again of the spirit. They teach that this rebirth comes at the resurrection. They teach that their present state of conversion is only a limited state of growing in the Spirit and that for the churches of God a member can never be born of the Spirit while in the flesh. They teach this because of their erroneous understanding of Rom 7, where they believe Paul is teaching that all Christians including himself, still have a heart of the flesh, are still living by the flesh, and are still sinners, and for this reason, are not born again of the Spirit now. Romans 7, if carefully read, is translated to seem to be written in the present tense. But when Romans 7 is combined with Romans 8, it becomes apparent that Romans 7 is written in the HISTORICAL PRESENT. In Romans 7 Paul is speaking in terms of how he in the past behaved. This becomes apparent when reading chapter 8 where he emphatically states that he is no longer in the flesh but in the spirit (NOW). He is affirming that he has buried the flesh at baptism - he has figuratively DIED at baptism - and he is now living, physical body and all, in the SPIRIT, Rom 8: 4-14. The only way this can be accomplished is to be REBORN FROM ABOVE!

Luke 11:52 Woe ( primary exclamation of grief ) <3759> unto you , lawyers (one learned in the law )<3544>! (an interpreter and teacher of the Mosaic law ) for ye have taken away the key <2807>(c) to obstruct the entrance into the kingdom of heaven ) of knowledge (, cognition, the understanding of facts or truths, ): ye entered to come not in yourselves , and them that were entering in ye hindered <2967>(to cause to be punished ) .

Is the Kingdom Here Now?
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him , Verily , verily , I say unto thee , Except 3362 (Unless) a man be born (to become, be made) again 509: ( over again), he cannot see 1492: (to perceive, notice, discern, discover) the kingdom of God .

In John 3:2 Nicodemus says he knows Yashua is a teacher sent from God
In John 3:3 Jesus, answering Nicodemus, says (about himself also) "Unless a man (jesus wasn't a god) is made over again, he can't see (word 1097: to see with the mind's eye, signifies a clear and purely mental perception) the kingdom of God (which implies that it is here)

To "see" the kingdom is a mental perception. We see it with the minds eye. When we have discernment we can understand who is in it (who obeys the Word) and who isn't.
Even with man's kingdoms we can't physically see the whole kingdom but we recognise men who are a part of it. The most important part of a kingdom are the subjects. Without subjects there isn't a kingdom.

Most organizations still adhere to the falsehood that the subjects only occur at the ressurection. But in John 3:4 Nicodemus is puzzled because he doesn't understand how a man can be "made over" again when he is old. Obviously Yashua's reference to born (in verse 3) is in the past tense. Indeed as you read the word "born" in verse 3, it is number 5686 which is PRESENT or PAST TENSE, NOT FUTURE TENSE.

Mark 4:30 And he said , Whereunto shall we liken the kingdom of God? or with what comparison shall we compare it?
31 It is like a grain of mustard seed , which , when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth:
Where is the seed sown? - IN THE EARTH! If we are SUBJECTS of Messiah; If he is our KING, if he is our HEAD and we are part of his BODY - THEN THE KINGDOM IS NOW SOWN ON THIS EARTH!

We can't even see (perceive) the kingdom (which is all around us) unless we are Reborn from Above.
We the FIRSTFRUITS are the beginning of the Kingdom of Yah with the Messiah being the FIRSTBORN, i.e., the FIRST SON to actually receive the inheritance of eternal life. Out of all the billions of people that exist on earth the called out ones are like a tiny mustard seed.

Now, to continue with John 3:3
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him , Verily , verily , I say unto thee , Except 3362 (Unless) a man be born 1080: (to become, be made) again 509: ( over again), he cannot see 1492: (to perceive, notice, discern, discover) the kingdom of God .

REBORN FROM ABOVE : Gennao- Born means both Beget (sired, conception, beginning) bringing forth (gestation) from phsical to spiritual.

DEFINITION OF BORN IN JOHN 3:3
1080 gennaw gennao ghen-nah'-o
from a variation of 1085; TDNT - 1:665,114; v
1a) to be born
1b) to be begotten
1b1) of women giving birth to children
2) metaph.
2a) to engender, cause to arise, excite
2b) in a Jewish sense, of one who brings others over to his way of life, to convert someone
2c) of God making Christ his son
2d) of God making men his sons through faith in Christ's work

So word # 1080 is from a variation of 1085:
1085 ~genoj~ genos \@ghen'-os\@
from 1096
1) kindred
1a ) offspring
1b) family
1c) stock, tribe, nation
1c1) i.e. nationality or descent from a particular people

1d) the aggregate of many individuals of the same nature, kind, sort

And word #1080 is derived from #1096:
1096 ginomai ginomai ghin'-om-ahee
1) to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being
2) to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen
2a) of events
3) to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage
3a) of men appearing in public
4) to be made, finished
4a) of miracles, to be performed, wrought
5) to become, be made

So in John 3:3 the root word and best translated usage of the word "born" is: "BE MADE"

Now let's examine the word "AGAIN" in John 3:3.
The word "again" in John 3:3 is Strong's 509:

509 anwqen anothen an'-o-then
from 507; TDNT - 1:378,63; adv
1) from above, from a higher place
1a) of things which come from heaven or God
2) from the first, from the beginning, from the very first
3) anew, over again

Which is derived from:

507 anw ano an'-o
from 473; TDNT - 1:376,63; adv
1) up, upwards, above, on high
2) of the quarters of the heaven, northward

Which is derived from: #473 anti
The preposition "anti" governs only the gentitive case. The gentitive case is possesive, a separation, or agency. "Anti" denotes over against, or opposite. Hence it is used as "instead of" or "in place of".

So the word "again" in John 3:3 denotes a separation and an agency (a subject of the Kingdom of Heaven) (an ambassador) IN PLACE OF the man that we "buried" at baptism.
Take a look at Strong's # 473. This definition (see above) is the derivation of the word translated "again" (in born again). Being reborn from above places us in opposition to Babylon which includes man's Governments and their "religious accomplises". The same circumstances occurred with the Called out ones VS Rome and the Pharisees.

SO A TRANSLATION OF JOHN 3:3 IS: UNLESS A MAN IS REBORN FROM ABOVE, HE CANNOT PERCEIVE THE KINGDOM OF YAH.

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1 John 4:7 ╢ Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
1 John 5:1 ╢ Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
1 John 5:18 ╢ We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

John backs up Messiah's declaration that we must be reborn from above in 1John 3:2: Beloved, NOW we are the children of Yahweh,
And in Romans 8:16 - The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are (present tense) the children of God. Also Gal 3:26; 1john 3:10; 1John 5:2

In Gal 4:19 (below) Yashua was FULLY formed in the apostles at Pentecost- they were converted & set to do his will, work, and preaching - Today the process is slower because of error in teaching. The apostles were taught by a perfect teacher for three and a half years. Paul is speaking as a parent.

Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed 3445 (5686) in you ,

The word "formed" above is the same as Morphe 3444:
Morphe 3444 "form" differs from 4976 "figure, shape, fashion", as
that which is intrinsic and essential, from that which is
outward and accidental.

THE PROCESS OF BEING REBORN FROM ABOVE IS YAHWEH'S SINGULAR ACT OF CREATION.

THE TENSE OF THE WORD "BORN" IS AORIST WITHOUT REGARD TO PAST, PRESENT, OR FUTURE - IT IS BEING DONE

In phrase "BORN AGAIN" the word "AGAIN" is the same word as "above" in Galatians 4:26 below:
Galatians 4:26: But Jerusalem which is above <507> is free <1658>(1) freeborn
1a) in a civil sense, one who is not a slave
1b) of one who ceases to be a slave, freed, manumitted
2) free, exempt, unrestrained, not bound by an obligation
, which <3748>( who) is <2076> (5748) the mother <3384>(the source of something, the motherland) of us <2257> all <3956>.

If we are "reborn from above" then our mother is the heavenly Jerusalem which is our mother country, which places us in a status of freeborn and we are released from the obligations of this society (babylon) because Yashua has redeemed (bought us with his life) us.

3:5 Except a man be born of water <5204>(baptism) and of the Spirit , he cannot <3756> <1410> (to be able, have power , or of a state of mind, or through favourable circumstances, or by permission of law or custom) enter <1525> (5629) (used only in present tense, to come (fall) into or unto) into the kingdom of God.

Verse 3:5 above states: Unless a MAN (not a ressurected spirit) be reborn of water (baptism signifies burying the old MAN) and of the Spirit (we can't do it without Ya's holy spirit) he cannot have the power and permission to enter (this word is ONLY used in the present tense) into the Kingdom.

John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. (THE POWER OF YAHWEH IS EVIDENT BY THE SOUND OF IT; SO IS IT BY CHANGING AND RENEWING OF US, BUT WE CANNOT SEE IT.

Rom 8:14 For <1063> as many as <3745> are led <71> (5743) by the Spirit <4151> of God <2316>, they <3778> are <1526> (5748) the sons <5207> of God <2316>.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Vs 10 - dead = born again = reborn from above

1john 3:9 Whosoever <3956> is born <1080> (5772) of <1537> God <2316> doth <4160> (5719) not <3756> commit sin <266>; for <3754> his <846> seed <4690> remaineth <3306> (5719) in <1722> him <846>: and <2532> he cannot <3756> <1410> (5736)(he is able to not) sin <264> (5721), because <3754> he is born <1080> (5769) of <1537> God <2316>.

1John 3:9 above the word cannot is mistranslated and means able not to sin and is in the present tense. The word SEED is important also. Yahweh's SEED remains in US. The word "remaineth" is in the present tense.

Who's seed???
4690 sperma sperma sper'-mah
1b) metaph. a seed i.e. a residue, or a few survivors reserved as the germ of the next generation (just as seed is kept from the harvest for the sowing)
2) the semen virile
2a) the product of this semen, seed, children, offspring, progeny
2b) family, tribe, posterity
2c) whatever possesses vital force or life giving power
2c1) divine energy of the Holy Spirit operating within the soul by which we are regenerated of

All three of the above definitions apply to us!

This doesn't mean that the comfortor immediately gives us every understanding of what is the true doctrine (faith) delivered.
We are all at different levels of understanding

We started (each of us at different times) as begotten babes or fetuses of Ya
We are in the process of being formed into the image of the Messiah
We become born of the spirit -
Able to walk & Live spiritually on our own in the Messiah (Members of)

Zech 4:6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might ( ability, efficiency, force, army), nor by power <03581>(strength, produce, wealth ), but by my spirit , saith the LORD of hosts.

Zerubbabel was building a temple. (WE ARE THE TEMPLE OF YAHWEH)
IT WILL BE BUILT BY HIS SPIRIT
(1. At times they built their own houses:instead of Yahweh's. (2. They had to be on guard (Satan) (3. Armour of Yahweh (Eph 6). (4. Most of the people of Israel chose to stay in Babylon. (5. Only those whom Yahweh called went back to Jerusalem.

Rom 7:4 Wherefore , my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
5: For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

4. These two verses are better translated as follows: In the same way, my brothers, through the body of the Messiah, you were buried by baptism into the Law, that you might belong to a different One, to Him Who was raised from the dead, that you might bear fruit to Yahweh!
5. For when we were in the flesh; our mere physical lives, the longing to transgress the Law which is to be kept, did constantly work in our members, that we might bear fruit unto death.

The phrase "buried by baptism into the Law" and in vs 5 "when we were in the flesh" indicate that we are reborn from above.

Romans 7:25 confirms this: Thanks be to Yahweh, I have deliverance through Yahshua Messiah our King! So then, with this same mind, I myself serve the Law of Yahweh, while in the flesh that is yet subject to the law of sin.

The phrase "with this same mind" indicates that the Holy Spirit is in our minds to enable us to serve the Law of Yahweh.

Romans 8 starting at vs 6: For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7. Because the carnal mind is enmity against; bitterly opposed to, Yahweh; for it is not subject to the Law of Yahweh, nor indeed can be.

Romans 8:8: So then, those who are of the flesh cannot please Yahweh.
8:9: But you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if the Spirit of Yahweh truly dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have this Spirit as the Messiah, he is not His; Yahweh's

That spirit is the same spirit that we need to be reborn again!

Romans 8:13 shows that we also have an obligation to live a new way. (Rom 8:12)

8:13: For if you live according to the commandments of men, you will die; but if, through the Spirit, you put to death; put an end to, the evildoing of mankind, you will live. (See Rom 6:16)
8:14: For as many as are led by the Spirit of Yahweh, they are the sons of Yahweh! (See Rom 8:2,4)
Rom 8:12 tells us we have an obligation to live this way.

1Cor 3:1-3: Paul is here admonishing the Corinthians for aligning themselves with men instead of Yahweh, through the Messiah's foundation.

Vs. 1: Now brothers, I could not speak to you as though you were spiritual, but as to carnal; (governed by mere human nature not by the Spirit of God ) - as to babes (childish, untaught, unskilled) in Messiah.
Vs 2: I have fed you with milk, and not with meat; for until now you were not ready to accept it, and even now you are still not ready.
Vs 3: For you are still carnal! For since there is jealousy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal, and walk as men?

Here he is urging them to rid themselves of their mere human nature. To live by the SPIRIT.
BEGOTTEN = BABE
BORN = FULLY DEVELOPED

REV 2&3: In the Messiah's message to the Churches, He admonishes every one of them to OVERCOME, or their names will not be written in the Book of Life.

Overcome
3528 nikaw nikao nik-ah'-o
from 3529; TDNT - 4:942,634; v
AV - overcome 24, conquer 2, prevail 1, get the victory 1; 28
1) to conquer
1a) to carry off the victory, come off victorious
1a1) of Christ, victorious over all His foes
1a2) of Christians, that hold fast their faith even unto death against the power of their foes, and temptations and persecutions
1a3) when one is arraigned or goes to law, to win the case, maintain one's cause

john 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world

According to the messages to the Congregations in Revelation, overcoming includes:
1. We cannot bear those who are evil.
2. We must try those who say they are apostles, and see if they are liars
3. We must endure
4. We must not leave our first love (Zeal)
5. We must identify and discard the deeds of the Nicolaitans (means victory over the people)
6. We must identify and expose those of the Congregation of Satan (not only so called "churches")
7. We must endure prison and even DEATH
8. We must identify Satan's Seat
9. We must rightly divide Yahweh's law from Balaam's (Babylonian)
10. We must understand the depths of Satan
11. We must watch (impossible without knowledge of Satan's Babylonic System)
12. We must not deny (reject) His name (by keeping the World's Laws when they conflict with His)
13. Our lives must be hot (of fervour of mind and zeal )
14. We must prefer the security of Yahweh when it is in conflict with the security taught in this world.

Rev 3:20: Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice, and opens the door, I will come in to him, and will eat with him, and he with me.

THIS IS THE PROCESS OF BEING REBORN FROM ABOVE

This is the opposite of Rev 2:14, to eat ( metaph. to devour, consume) things sacrificed to elohim.

IF WE ARE BORN AGAIN WE ARE ABLE TO STOP SINNING NOW!

John 6:46: For no one knows the Father, except he who is born of Yahweh - he knows the father
1john 2:29: If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is begotten of Him. (reborn from above)
1John 3:1: Behold, what manner of love the Father has bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of Yahweh! Therefore, the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.
1John 4:7: Beloved, let us love one another; for love is from Yahweh; and everyone who loves is begotten of Yahweh, and knows Yahweh. (reborn from above)(daily led by the Spirit)
1John 5:4: And whoever is begotten of Yahweh overcomes the world;
1John 5:18: We know that whoever is born of Yahweh does not sin; but he who has been begotten of Yahweh keeps himself, and the evil one does not touch him. Vs 19: We know that we belong to Yahweh, and that the whole world is under the control of the gods.
James 2:26: For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so the faith without works is dead also.

1Peter 1:3: Blessed be Yahweh, the Father of our King Yahshua Messiah, Who, according to His abundant mercy, has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Yahshua Messiah from the dead, (THOSE WHO REFUSE TO STOP SINNING)
1Peter 4:6: For this is the reason the message was indeed preached to the spiritually dead, that although they are judged according to men in the flesh; (the dead), they are given the opportunity to live according to Yahweh in the spirit.

Gal 3:27: For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on <1746> (5668)(must become like) Christ.

Titus 2:12: Teaching us that, by denying unholiness and worldly lusts, we must live soberly, righteously, and in holiness IN THIS PRESENT WORLD. vs 14: Who gave Himself on our behalf, in order that He might redeem us from all iniquity, and might purify a special people unto Himself, His own possession, zealous of righteous works.

In Titus 2:12 above, the word holiness or Godly as translated in KJV means as follows:
eusebhj is distinguished from qeosebhj in two ways. It is used
to include the fulfillment of obligations of all kinds, both towards
God and man. It is thus applied to the fulfillment of the duties
involved in human relations, as towards one's parents. Furthermore,
when used in the higher sense, it means not any kind of worship, but,
as the etymology indicates, the worshipping of God aright.

THE GOSPEL (MESSAGE) PREACHED IS THAT THE KINGDOM IS IN OUR MIDST AND WE CAN BE REBORN FROM ABOVE IF WE BELIEVE YASHUA IS OUR SOVEREIGN AND YAHWEH IS THE SOVEREIGN OF SOVERIEGNS AND WE SERVE THEM (LAWS) AND NO OTHER MASTER.

3:5 Except a man be born of water (baptism) and of the Spirit, he cannot (to be able, have power , or of a state of mind, or through favourable circumstances, or by permission of law or custom)
enter (5629) (used only in present tense, to come (fall) into or unto) into the kingdom of God.

Jay

Hi cook,

I must agree to disagree in love with your understanding. Here is why,

1. When we are "born" into YAHWEH'S family, we are actually only given a down payment of spirit or "earnest of the spirit" if you will,

"KJV 2 Corinthians 1:21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in YAHSHUA, and hath anointed us, YAH the Father; 22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts. "

The problem, in my view, with what you are promoting is that we are considered permanent members of YAHWEH's family after baptizm. I disagree. Even after receiving YAH's Spirit at baptism, we can in fact have that spirit removed from us. Thus, rendering us dead in the world and to YAH.

"KJV 1 Corinthians 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. "

Paul understood He could still fall from Grace if he did not continue to strive to run the race in faith and works.

If, and only if, we endure to the end with the downpayment of Spirit given by the Father, we will be changed into incorruptable Spirit beings as YAHSHUA,

"KJV 1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

KJV 1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of YAHWEH; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

We will not be a permanent member of YAHWEH'S FAMILY until we are changed from our vile physical, corruptible bodies, alive or dead, into that of incorruptible Spirit beings.

YAHSHUA is the only permanent, spiritual member of YAHWEH's family presently. He is the First of the Firstfruits. Until the Firstfruit resurrection occurs, YAHSHUA will remain the only Firstfruit truly begotten of YAHWEH.

"KJV 1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the ELOHIM and Father of YAHSHUA, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of YAHSHUA from the dead, {abundant: Gr. much} 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, {for you: or, for us}"

All that we have now, is a downpayment of Spirit helping us overcome our carnal nature. We sin daily whether knowing or unknowing. YAHWEH commands us to repent and admit our sins to him so that we can be forgiven. Not one single human being in this world does not sin. Only YAHSHUA can boast of that feat.

We have a "hope" to live for and a promise of eternal life if we are found worthy of enduring til the end. That requires action by us daily. It does not end with baptizm nor is it any guarantee of eternal life.

There will be many who will "fall away" before YAHSUA'S SECOND COMING. One cannot fall away unless one was considered part of the group who had or have the opportunity, meaning received the earnest of the Spirit and eyes opened.

Therefore, in my view, let us not consider ourselves in any way a permanent member of the Family of YAHWEH. Let us rather strive to follow YAHWEH's commandments and run the "race" in hopes that we will be found worthy of that distinction upon the return of YAHSHUA. Let us realize we are in training. And, as in many other occupations, one can either pass or fail depending on how well the training went.

"KJV 2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. "

"KJV James 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which YAHWEH hath promised to them that love him.

KJV 1 Corinthians 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

KJV Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved"

Let us encourage one another to continue to strive and overcome by praying to the Father that He strengthen us by HIS SPIRIT and give to us the measure we need to overcome. And let us recognize that we CAN FAIL, we can FALL AWAY if we do not keep our focus on the example of YAHSHUA and strive after that perfect example daily.

Again, this is my view.

May YAHWEH bless and keep all who seek His Face,

your brother marty

Thankyou for your response to my post on “born again”. I must admit that at one time I believed exactly as you do, but that was before I stopped listening to man’s interpretation of scripture and instead of quoting what some “pastor” told me (I’m not saying that you are), I decided to let Yah guide me through the scriptures.

The main thing I noticed in your response, is that you didn’t comment upon my choice of scriptures, as to whether I was reading something different than what they actually say. Instead you have chosen a completely different set of scriptures to prove that I am in error. In my rebuttal to your post, my tactic will be to attempt to show that you are reading something into your choice of scriptures that is contrary to what they actually say.

Marty wrote: I must agree to disagree in love with your understanding. Here is why,
1. When we are "born" into YAHWEH'S family, we are actually only given a down payment of spirit or "earnest of the spirit" if you will,
"KJV 2 Corinthians 1:21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in YAHSHUA, and hath anointed us, YAH the Father; 22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts. "
The problem, in my view, with what you are promoting is that we are considered permanent members of YAHWEH's family after baptizm. I disagree. Even after receiving YAH's Spirit at baptism, we can in fact have that spirit removed from us. Thus, rendering us dead in the world and to YAH.

Jay’s comment: Above are the key scriptures that religionists use to refute the born again position that I believe. But let’s examine those scriptures to see what it really says.

Vs 21: Now He Who establishes us with you in Messiah and has anointed us is Yahuweh.

There are two key words – “establishes” and “anointed”
Establishes means - to make firm, establish, confirm, make sure
Anointed means - #5548 – this is the set apart and “religious” word for annoint which means CONSECRATED.

Paul is saying that the Father Himself is making sure or confirming that we are set apart and consecrated with MESSIAH.

Vs 22: who also sealed us, and gave the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge
The RSV reads: and He has also set His seal upon us, and has put His Spirit into our hearts as a pledge and foretaste of future blessing.

Key words – “sealed”, “spirit” and “pledge”
Sealed means – a mark to confirm authenticate, place beyond doubt
Pledge means - a pledge or downpayment that the full amount will subsequently be paid

So Yahuweh himself has marked us and authenticated or confirmed us. And the way we know this is that he has put His spirit into our hearts as a pledge or downpayment.

I’m sure I don’t have to convince you that our Father will pay the full amount at Messiah’s return; which is a new eternal body and a permanent place in His house.

So the real meaning is: rather than a little of the spirit as a down payment, Yah has put his spirit in us as a pledge to eternal life. Without it we can’t make it. And on top of that he has sealed us.

But of course, like a dog returning to his vomit, we can always choose to reject it, and return to the beast system, and our former way of life, and then we will be cut off (stop producing fruit and pruned). But the more we yield to Him and UTILIZE his spirit, the more we will receive.

Your next scripture is 1Cor 9:25. Let’s start at 24 and read it in modern english from The Scriptures.

24: Do you not know that those who run in a race indeed all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way as to obtain it. 25 And everyone who competes controls himself in every way. Now they do it to receive a corruptible crown, but we for an incorruptible crown. 26 Therefore I run accordingly, not with uncertainty. Thus I fight, not as one who beats the air. 27 But I treat my body severely and make it my slave, so that when I have proclaimed to others, I myself might be rejected.

It sounds to me that above is confirming the fact that faith without works is dead. That we just cannot claim that we are saved and do nothing. That if we turn back from plowing we loose. That we must combine a little “will power” with Yah’s Spirit.

Marty wrote: YAHSHUA is the only permanent, spiritual member of YAHWEH's family presently. He is the First of the Firstfruits. Until the Firstfruit resurrection occurs, YAHSHUA will remain the only Firstfruit truly begotten of YAHWEH.

Jay's comment: Although they are now currently asleep, would you deny that Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David are not guaranteed to be and in reality are SEALED members of Yahweh's family?

Marty wrote: If, and only if, we endure to the end with the downpayment of Spirit given by the Father, we will be changed into incorruptable Spirit beings as YAHSHUA,

Jay’s comment: Yes, I agree, we must keep truckin on. Yes, the end of the race is to have an new eternal body and a crown; and we are assurred of it through the Spirit as a down payment. We will receive full payment at the return of Messiah.

Marty wrote: KJV 1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of YAHWEH; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."
Jay’s comment: My sons are now born and alive. They are now living in their future inheritance. But they won’t receive their inheritance until I bestow it on them. We are now Born from Above, but we won’t receive our inheritance until Messiah’s return, but we are brothers of Messiah and members (called out ones) of the Kingdom of the Israel of Yahweh.

Marty wrote: We will not be a permanent member of YAHWEH'S FAMILY until we are changed from our vile physical, corruptible bodies, alive or dead, into that of incorruptible Spirit beings.

Jay’s comment: 1John 3:1: Behold, what manner of love the Father has bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of Yahweh! Therefore, the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.

I believe a SON is a member of his father’s family. There are many scriptures that show that we are NOW Sons of the Father above.

Marty wrote: There will be many who will "fall away" before YAHSUA'S SECOND COMING. One cannot fall away unless one was considered part of the group who had or have the opportunity, meaning received the earnest of the Spirit and eyes opened.

Jay’s comment: Yes, I believe the “great falling away” is occurring right now. There have been many friends of mine who no longer believe as I do. Messiah describes this condition in the parable of the seed that falls on rock, fertile ground etc. When most of those friends encountered hardship to where they had to make a choice between Yah’s Law and Man’s Law, they made the wrong choice.

Anyway, one of us is right, or both of us are wrong, but no hard feelings, OK?

Jay

[This message has been edited by cook (edited 03-09-2003).]

Hi Cook,

As far as my reply to your post, remember, I am just agreeing to disagree with your understanding. I did not say you were wrong or in error. ;o)

We both could be wrong, or vice versa. That is not what is important for now, in my view. We should live our faiths and be true to our understandings as they are formed and reformed, not worry about being right and convincing other likewise.

If your understanding works for you, great. Live it. And to me likewise.

I saw no arguement, per say, with your rebuttal of my comments. I would consider Noah, Enoch and all of the physically dead Firstfruits as Spiritual beings in waiting. But my statement is absolutely correct in that YAHSHUA is the only "begotten" Firstfruit of YAH the FAther. Until the Firstfruit resurrection occurs, it is only a symbolic representation that they are full fledged members of YAHWEH's family, of which I would agree.

In fact, when reading your responses, I did not get the impression that you disagreed with any of my comments. You just happen to view the word "born" differently than I evidently. Sobeit.

We do not have an automatic pass into YAHWEH'S KINGDOM, in my view, just because he has called us out of the world and given us a earnest or downpayment of His Spirit.

Many are called, but few are chosen. You agree that many are falling away as we speak. I also agree with that statement. These people were given YAH'S spirit, they were called, they simply have left their first love of the Father and are now, and will continue to be, falling away.

I pray YAHWEH gives us the strength to keep running the race, to keep a humble attitude and to remember that it is His Will we are trying to accomplish, not our own.

May YAHWEH bless and keep all who seek his Face,