Once one has entered into the New Covenant, will they ever sin again? If they do, what happens to them?

I'll be back later to jump into this sub-topic but feel free to jump on in.

I believe once the New Covenant is in full force and has been fully agreed to by the House of Israel (including the House of Judah, see Eze. 37) that the laws of YHWH will be so much a part of the make-up of the people by the placing of them into their hearts, that they (for the most part) will not sin ever again. Not even one little sin.

Note I said "for the most part". Why do I say that? Well I think that some may actually rebel later and turn from the New Covenant. It could be when satan is released from his 1000 year captivity and once again goes to deceive the nations. It seems that one would have to be an utter fool to have walked in the new spirit of the New Covenant, having the laws of YHWH engrained in their very being to become deceived and turn on YHWH but it might just happen.

This is where I see Hebrews chapter 10 coming in, especially the second half of the chapter. I think that it is written to the Israel of the New Covenant in the future after the fullness of the covenant has been realized.

Some highlights of the chapter:

Hebrews 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith YHWH, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

Once one has sinned after fully accepting and entering into this New Covenant, there is no further offering for later sins should they be committed.

19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Y'shua,

20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

21 And having an high priest over the house of YHWH;

The people of this New Covenant will be able to actually enter the "Holy of Holies" by a new and living way (Y'shua, the High Priest). I think this will be much more literal than we understand today.

Next, I think the writer of Hebrews is discussing how we should be preparing for those future days:

22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised ; )

24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

The day is approaching but has not arrived. So we assemble and exhort one another, etc. in the meantime.

Next, the writer tells what happens to those who enter the New Covenant and then become deceived and begin to wilfully transgress YHWH law:

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Verse 27 is referring to the second death, the lake of fire. Those who enter the New Covenant, then begin to transgress, will go to the lake. It will have to be deliberate rebellious sin, wilful sin, for our natures will be so opposed to sin that we just will not transgress at all unless we are extremely determined to do so. Those who wilfully sin at this stage are going to be lost forever without hope of any redemption whatsoever. Woe unto them!

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of YHWH, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was set apart, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of favor?

30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith YHWH. And again, YHWH shall judge his people.

It will be a "sorer punishment" than the punishment for breaking the first covenant. AGAIN YHWH shall judge His people. Seems incredible that people will transgress this New Covenant but I believe they will after satan is released for his final run of deception.

These who deliberately turn from the New Covenant, were they once in the group described by Jeremiah?

Jeremiah 31:9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.

It says "they shall not stumble". I think this means those who are not looking to rebel against YHWH in those days, they will in no way stumble. The ones who decide to rebel aren't really "stumbling", they are charging headlong into outright rebellion, being led by satan himself. Woe unto them!

Earlier in Hebrews (chapter 6) we read what I think is a parallel passage:

Revelation 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel

If physical Israel were to be cut off, why would the names of the forefathers of each of the tribes be written on the angels of the gates?

Will there be another Israel? A different Israel? Not the same as the previously existing physical Israel?

And will this new and different "spiritual Israel" (a term I do not find in scripture by the way) still go under the divisions of the tribes of the previous physical Israel under the names of each of the physical tribe's patriarchs?

If this new "spiritual Israel" is not actually made of Israelites but instead made of Gentiles (the nations outside of Israel), why then isn't there gates and angels named after the tribes of the gentile nations?

Why is Israel's name even mentioned at all?

When King David is brought into this "new" Israel, will he be engrafted into this Gentile nation which goes by the name of the nation he once ruled? Would he not feel like a foreigner?

Replacement theology has lot's of "splaining" to do on these and many other questions.

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torah4today wrote: “The Jews did not crucify Messiah. The ROMANS did. They were Gentiles. SOME Jews consented to this. But THE Jews did not. Neither did THE Israelites.”

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Lu 24:20 And how THE CHIEF PRIESTS and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and HAVE CRUCIFIED HIM.
Jn 19:14 He saith unto the JEWS, Behold your King! 15 But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar. 16 Then delivered he him therefore UNTO THEM TO BE CRUCIFIED.
Mt 27:25 Then answered ALL THE PEOPLE, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.
Ac 2:22-23 Ye MEN OF ISRAEL, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth ….YE HAVE TAKEN, AND BY WICKED HANDS HAVE CRUCIFIED AND SLAIN.
Ac 2:36 Therefore let ALL THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, WHOM YE HAVE CRUCIFIED, both Lord and Christ.
Ac 3: 12-15 Ye MEN OF ISRAEL, …the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye DELIVERED UP, …AND KILLED the Prince of life.
Ac 4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to ALL THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, WHOM YE CRUCIFIED.
Ac 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now THE BETRAYERS AND MURDERERS.

We are told from the Bible that the Jews, the chief priests and all Israel crucified Yahshua, not the Romans. The Romans was only the instrument Israel used as Peter put it, “By wicked hands (Romans) have crucified.”

Zec 12:10 I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon him whom they have pierced.
Joh 19:37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced, and they shall mourn for him.

Are the Romans going to look upon him whom they pierced and mourn for him?

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torah4today wrote: “All of the twelve Apostles and the first several thousand believers (and according to some accounts many many tens of thousands of later believers prior to and after the 70 AD destruction) were Jews. So how can you say the Jews rejected Messiah?”

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Paul speaking of Israel tells us, “Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace” (Ro 11:5). If these thousands of Jewish believers in Messiah made up 1% or 50%, to Yahweh they are but a remnant.

Mr 12:10 Have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner.

Yahshua prophesied the Jews would reject him.

Ro 9:31 Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Isa 8:14 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

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Dick wrote: “I am sorry, but people who claim that they are part of the so-called SPIRITUAL Jisrael TODAY are not being true to themselves. The spirit may be dwelling in you as unto a human fetus, but you are not yet re-born fully as SPIRITUAL and IMMORTAL being. You are still made of flesh and blood, and therefore can only be part of the PHYSICAL Jisrael--at least for now.”

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So now we are just “walking in the spirit” but after the resurrection we will be spirit, as you say a “SPIRITUAL and IMMORTAL being.” So a Gentile believes on Messiah and becomes part of physical Israel? Is that how you see it? And then after the resurrection all are spirit and then there will be no physical Israel but all will then be spiritual Israel? Could you comment on these two questions?

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Dick wrote: “If you believe that TWO SEPARATE covenants were mediated by Moses, how come only the "first" one was dedicated with blood. How can the "second" covenant given (as you claim) be IN EFFECT without blood? Are you saying that the "second" covenant given to Moses was inferior and superficial when compared to the "first"? Covenants (or agreements) are supposed to supersede one another sequentially, as in any legal transaction of man, right?”

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If the second covenant at Moab was dedicated with blood we are not told about it. And yes, the second covenant with Moses at Moab was not as important as the covenant at Sinai.

Covenants do not necessarily sequentially supplant each other. Noah’s covenant wasn’t superseded by Abraham’s and Abraham’s wasn’t superseded by Moses’ and Moses’ wasn’t superseded by David’s.

De 29:1 These are the terms of the covenant, Yahweh commanded Moses to make with the Israelites in Moab IN ADDITION TO the covenant he had made with them in Horeb (NIV).

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Dick wrote: “If you claim that the first covenant given to Moses was dedicated with blood and that it can not be changed, why was there a "second" covenant given to Moses? If ever there was indeed a "second" separate covenant, shouldn't the "first" covenant be superceded by the "second", in the same way that the old covenant is being made obsolete by the new covenant mediated by Jehoshua Messiah?”

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It is categorically stated that the Old Covenant was to be supplanted by the New Covenant.

Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 10:9 He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

However, these two covenants had different promises. Sinai promised eternal life but Moab promised earthly prosperity.

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Dick wrote: “I respect your beliefs. However, these contradictions tend to give favor to the concept that there was ONLY ONE covenant given to Moses (Exodus), and that it was only re-inforced before entering the promised land (Deuteronomy). I stand by my position that the two covenants found in Exodus and Deuteronomy are one and the same, a single old covenant that was given in 2 phases.”

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Dick wrote: “Brethren T4T said: "There will always be a physical Israel. There is no replacement theology. The physical commonwealth of Yisrael is open to all, no doubt. All can be engrafted to this nation, this physical nation of Yisrael."

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But Brother Dick you had written, “You are not yet re-born fully as SPIRITUAL and IMMORTAL being. You are still made of flesh and blood, and therefore can only be part of the PHYSICAL Jisrael.”

So you and T4T are saying physical Israel will always be physical and will not be made spiritual bodies. Who then will be made “SPIRITUAL and IMMORTAL beings.”

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Dick wrote: “True, at this time the Jews are out of the olive tree, but let us help them be re-grafted in.”

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So are you saying the Jews are no longer Israel? They are out of Israel (olive tree)? So how do they get back in? What do you say?

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Dick wrote: “The truth of the Scriptures is, PHYSICAL Jisrael is alive and well today, and the gentiles can be grafted in through the door that is J'shua Messiah. In fact, all of the dead Jisraelites of the past shall be resurrected in the flesh when King Jehoshua arrives and declares the new covenant to all 12 tribes! As it is written in Ezekiel 37:”

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Okay, I should have asked this a while back, what is physical Israel? What makes up physical Israel?

1] Are Jews who do NOT believe in Yahshua still physical Israel?
2] Or are only Jews who have received Messiah physical Israel?
3] Or are both physical Israel?
4] Are Gentiles who believe in Messiah physical Israel?

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Dick wrote: “I believe this PHYSICAL resurrection shall literally be fulfilled to Jisrael. Even the patriarchs had known about this event that is why the chose their bones to be placed in Canaan.”

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This was a vision given to Ezekiel for he was not actually at this resurrection physically. Do you believe this valley that was full of bones represents the whole earth or only a certain actually valley somewhere in the Middle East? By quoting Jacob and Joseph and pointing out there desire to be buried next to their fathers and grandfathers (as is the custom in all lands to this day) indicates you think if a person was not buried in that place they will not be resurrected. Many, many Israelites were not buried there we know from scripture, including Moses, so this valley has to represent dead Israelites everywhere.

I note that you have removed some of this passage. Let's read verse 23 in full now:

23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of YHWH, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Y'shua was delivered by the determinate counsel of YHWH. The religious rulers were instruments of what YHWH had determined and had foreknowledge of. The Romans were also instruments. Yes there were most likely at this feast many rulers present to hear Peter chastise them. But again, this was not an assembly of the MASSES of Israel which back then must have numbered in the millions when you count the dispersion.

Ac 2:36 Therefore let ALL THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, WHOM YE HAVE CRUCIFIED, both Lord and Christ.

Peter is saying in effect, Let ALL OF THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL be notified that Y'shua was made their Master by YHWH and that their leaders (the phony baloney apostates who had no heart for YHWH whatsoever) have killed Him. This does not imply guilt on the part of every Jew and Israelite in the world at that time (nor those after that time).

Ac 3: 12-15 Ye MEN OF ISRAEL, …the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye DELIVERED UP, …AND KILLED the Prince of life.

Here is a case you can make that the people referred to here is other than the rulers for it is clear in verse 17. However, these people again do not represent ALL of the House of Israel worldwide.

It was a few thousand Jerusalamites, probably most of which were not found among the group who were praising the King on His triumphal entry, yet who were not beyond salvation and repentance. Five thousand of them became believers in Y'shua. They were still Jews and were not replaced by a spiritual Israel. They were reconciled to YHWH's physical nation of Judah which will one day be re-joined to Israel and shall again be one commonwealth of Israel.

Ac 4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to ALL THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, WHOM YE CRUCIFIED.
Ac 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now THE BETRAYERS AND MURDERERS.

Again, this serves as notice to the people of Israel at large that their rulers were murderers. Note the wording here which shows who he is talking to:

Be it known unto you all, AND to ALL THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL,

This is saying (similar to the case above) essentially, that the "YOU" is the guilty party which he is serving notice upon, and at the same time is serving notice to ALL of Israel just what their leaders have done.

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I agree with you on the remnant aspect, and it is this remnant which I think makes up the firstfruits. What the percentage of the people made up or currently make up as far as firstfruits to those who repent and enter into the Kingdom of YHWH and His nation, Israel... I can only speculate but I think it is very minute.

Shalom,
T4T

[This message has been edited by torah4today (edited 02-21-2003).]

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I was just briefly scanning your response to Dick and it occurred to me that one of the things we are talking about may be just different understandings of a concept.

I'm referring to "physical Israel". I believe that one can be spiritual, yet have a physical body, just like Y'shua did after His ressurection. He was physical and was handled by Thomas, and He ate food. Yet He is spiritual and immortal.

Same for the future fullness of Israel in my humble opinion. Physical Israelites of the future will be both spiritual and immortal. Sorry I didn't clarify my position earlier. Dick may feel the same about this but I'll let him speak for himself.

11: He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12: Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

It was the will of the Father that Yah'shua live a sinless life and then die. Ultimiately, the Father did this work so that this new convenant be given first to Judah, then Israel, then the rest of the called throughout the nations.
I believe everyone is in agreement that only a remnant of Judah has accepted Yah'shua as Messiah. Eventually, the law will be written in their hearts and they will be re-birthed in the new covenant.

1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Y'shua the Messiah, to the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of Yahweh the Father, set apart by the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Yahshua the Messiah: favor to you and peace be multiplied.

Peter is addressing living breathing physical Israelites of the dispersion here. They have not been cast off. They are in fact "elect". Peter doesn't say they are spiritual Israelites (but he does say they are "set-apart by the Spirit"). They are his blood kinsmen.

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of YHWH: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Compare to what's in book of Hosea:

Hosea 1:9 Then said Elohim, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your Elohim.

10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living El.

11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.

The children of Judah and the children of Israel will be gathered together. No mention of whether they are spiritual or physical. They will be both, at least eventually.

Hosea 14:4 I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely: for mine anger is turned away from him.

5 I will be as the dew unto Israel: he shall grow as the lily, and cast forth his roots as Lebanon.

6 His branches shall spread, and his beauty shall be as the olive tree, and his smell as Lebanon.

7 They that dwell under his shadow shall return; they shall revive as the corn, and grow as the vine: the scent thereof shall be as the wine of Lebanon.

Back to the NT to check in with James...

James 1:1 James, a bondservant of YHWH and of the Master Y'shua the Messiah, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad : greetings.

James (Yaacob) didn't seem to think that these scattered believers no longer had a part of their tribal heritage or else he wouldn't have made special note of them being of 12 distinct physical tribes.

No doubt he was writing to those who had already converted to belief in Y'shua as Messiah, but that didn't take away their tribal Israelite heritage.

I am curious however as to the gentiles who fellowshipped together and believed in Y'shua along side of those who were of the tribes... which of the tribes will each gentile believer be engrafted into? Judah perhaps? Through lineage of Y'shua?

Thoughts?

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torah4today wrote: “I'll try to briefly answer regarding the verses you quote, to show that no way do these verses say that ALL of the Jews killed or were even a party to the killing of Messiah.”

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You’re missing the point. Of course only a few hundred Jews maybe participated verbally or physically in Messiah’s death but every Jew alive who did not accept him as Messiah were implicated in his death and suffered the consequences.

Isa 8:14 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

You didn’t comment on these. What’s your opinion?

Zec 12:10 I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon him whom they have pierced.
Joh 19:37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced, and they shall mourn for him.

Are the Romans going to look upon him whom they pierced and mourn for him?

Mr 12:10 (Yahshua said) Have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders REJECTED is become the head of the corner.

Yahshua prophesied the Jews would reject him.

Ro 9:31 Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Isa 8:14 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

Paul says “Israel”, not just the leaders of Israel, and Isaiah says “both houses of Israel.”

Mt 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: 35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. 36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

Yahshua is here speaking to the scribes and Pharisees but their punishment will extend onto the whole generation.

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torah4today wrote: “Do you think this (Mt 27:25) meant ALL of the whole population of Israel? All twelve tribes? Even all of those who were scattered in the diaspora? Certainly not. This only referred to ALL who were present, which may have been as few as a hundred apostate anti-messiahs.”

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Mt 27:25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

History begs to differ with you because Yahshua’s blood and “all the righteous blood shed” came crashing down on that generation of Jews and certainly not just on only the few hundred present.

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torah4today wrote: “I'm referring to "physical Israel". I believe that one can be spiritual, yet have a physical body, just like Y'shua did after His ressurection. He was physical and was handled by Thomas, and He ate food. Yet He is spiritual and immortal. Same for the future fullness of Israel in my humble opinion.”

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Is Yahshua still in that scarred body or is he more like John described him in the first chapter of Revelation? When he first appeared to them he was not in his glorified body but was still in his old physical body to facilitate their shock, amazement and unbelief.

Lu 24:37 They were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. 38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. 40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet. 41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?

Was he hungry and needed to eat or ate just to facilitate their questioning minds and reassure them?

Mr 16:12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.

Was this new form the scarred body he had shown the others or was it another body?

Are we going to be resurrected with a body that looks like the one we now have so others can recognize us? Will the burn victims and amputees still be disfigured?

1Co 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, THOU SOWEST NOT THAT BODY THAT SHALL BE, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 IT IS SOWN A NATURAL BODY; IT IS RAISED A SPIRITUAL BODY. THERE IS A NATURAL BODY, AND THERE IS A SPIRITUAL BODY. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as WE HAVE BORNE THE IMAGE OF THE EARTHY, WE SHALL ALSO BEAR THE IMAGE OF THE HEAVENLY. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Paul seems to indicate we will be given something better then this old physical body.

Lu 20:34 Yahshua answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Yahshua tells us those resurrected will not be married and have children but do you believe physical Israel, after being resurrected, will marry and have children.

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torah4today wrote: “Physical Israelites of the future will be both spiritual and immortal.”

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Will they be immortal, spiritual and physical? And maybe you believe physical Israel belong to a different resurrection then what Paul and Yahshua are talking about

It is indeed a pleasure to see some truly seeking and searching for an understanding in reference to this topic of the "new covenant". We as a people have undergone such an indepth indoctrination of what the "new covenant" is over the past many years by organizations of men who have stamped their own labels of understandings to this issue.

I appreciate very much the time and effort everyone is putting into this subject. I am delighted to return to this forum and find a meaningful study and search for the truth.

Let me start by saying that I honor all of your views, though I may not and do not agree with them in part or whole. We all answer to YAHWEH for our individual faiths. Father YAH sees our hearts and our thoughts. He knows our frame and what we are made of and the daily temptations we struggle through. None of us will ever understand YAHWEH's plan exactly. This is an important truth to accept. That is why we must be ever patient with eachother realizing that we could be the party that is not understanding correctly.

I look at scripture as a multi-faceted conduit of understanding. Many scriptures, I believe, contain multi-levels of understanding. We must understand that YAHWEH is in control and opening our minds to understanding, though I do disagree with some that we cannot be taught by a man. There is a gift of teaching through the Spirit, as well as many other gifts.

Okay, let me jump into the fray here awhile with our topic.

There have been many covenants or contracts handed down from YAHWEH to mankind. Some have nothing to do with salvation, others do.

My understanding is that YAHWEH created the earth for physical habitation. And, as we all know, it certainly is not needed for spiritual habitation right?

"KJV Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith YAHWEH that created the heavens; ELOHIYM that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am YAHWEH; and there is none else.

KJV Psalm 78:69 And he built his sanctuary like high palaces, like the earth which he hath established for ever. "

Yet, what many have been taught is that physical human beings cannot live forever. I disagree with that premise. Not only can they live forever, but YAHWEH states that he will resurrect a physical nation to serve Him forever,

"KJV Ezekiel 37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their ELOHIYM. 24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. 25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever. 26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. 27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their ELOHIYM, and they shall be my people. 28 And the heathen shall know that I YAHWEH do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore."

Two key points here:

1. These humans will be cleansed of their sins. They will sin no more.

2. They will serve YAHWEH forever.

KJV Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from Father YAHWEH out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of YAHWEH is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and YAHWEH himself shall be with them, and be their YAHWEH. 4 And YAHWEH shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

1. The New City of Jerusalem coming down and placed among MEN, that is the correct Greek noun for humans.

Yet, we know that there will be a "chief" resurrection of the Spiritual Firstfruits before the physical resurrection. Both of these resurrections have eternal inheritance or immortality. However, the HUGE and most IMPORTANT difference is that one is Spiritual and the other is Physical. There is only one Firstfruit harvest, the later harvest can never be Firstfruits.

And, of course it goes without saying, that the Spiritual Resurrections brings with it true YAHWEH status,

KJV 1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of YAHWEH, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. "

The Physical nation of Israel will never be this Spiritual type of being and have inherited Spiritual Sonship and Daughtership with YAHWEH.

In fact, the physical nation of Israel were stiffnecked and are not being resurrected with the Firstfruits for their deeds and complete absence of faith, but rather because of YAHWEH AND HIS NAME AND MERCY,

KJV Ezekiel 20:42 And ye shall know that I am YAHWEH, when I shall bring you into the land of Israel, into the country for the which I lifted up mine hand to give it to your fathers. 43 And there shall ye remember your ways, and all your doings, wherein ye have been defiled; and ye shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for all your evils that ye have committed. 44 And ye shall know that I am YAHWEH, when I have wrought with you for MY NAME'S SAKE, not according to your wicked ways, nor according to your corrupt doings, O ye house of Israel, saith the YAHWEH your MASTER. "

I would like to touch on other comments I have read here, but this is a key understanding, in my view, in order to understand what the "new covenant" really is and the "covenant of faith or promise" which has, is and will continue to be in affect for the Firstfruits of YAHWEH, from Adam, Enoch, Noah and up until the second coming of His Son YAHSHUA.

I look forward to many more discussions.:0)

May YAHWEH bless and keep all who seek His Face,

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brmarty wrote: “Yet, we know that there will be a "chief" resurrection of the Spiritual Firstfruits before the physical resurrection. Both of these resurrections have eternal inheritance or immortality. However, the HUGE and most IMPORTANT difference is that one is Spiritual and the other is Physical. There is only one Firstfruit harvest, the later harvest can never be Firstfruits.”

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I don’t actually see where that is coming from except maybe Rev 20:4-6 for the first spiritual resurrection and verses 11-15 for the second physical resurrection. You point out that even the second resurrection, which is physical, will have eternal inheritance or immortality when in fact it is a resurrection to judgement where many will be thrown in the lake of fire. Are there other scriptures that would make your statements clearer?

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brmarty wrote: “The Physical nation of Israel will never be this Spiritual type of being and have inherited Spiritual Sonship and Daughtership with YAHWEH.”

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So, Moses, David, Daniel and Peter, James and Paul, who are part of physical Israel “Will never be this Spiritual type of being and have inherited Spiritual Sonship and Daughtership with YAHWEH.”

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brmarty wrote: “In fact, the physical nation of Israel were stiffnecked and are not being resurrected with the Firstfruits for their deeds and complete absence of faith, but rather because of YAHWEH AND HIS NAME AND MERCY.”

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I would be happy to address your questions.

Firstly, you said

“I don’t actually see where that is coming from except maybe Rev 20:4-6 for the first spiritual resurrection and verses 11-15 for the second physical resurrection. You point out that even the second resurrection, which is physical, will have eternal inheritance or immortality when in fact it is a resurrection to judgement where many will be thrown in the lake of fire. Are there other scriptures that would make your statements clearer?”

Yes, this can be difficult if you are trying to use Revelations alone as your source for “resurrection verses”. However, Eze. 37 is very clear in it’s intent that there will be a physical resurrection of the “whole house of Israel”. This physical nation is not going to be tossed into the Lake of Fire. It is resurrected to “serve YAHWEH” forever. As far as the Firstfruit Resurrection, that will occur upon the return of Yahshua and prior to the beginning of the Millennium in my view and prior to the physical resurrection of the “whole house of Israel”.

Secondly, you said,

“So, Moses, David, Daniel and Peter, James and Paul, who are part of physical Israel “Will never be this Spiritual type of being and have inherited Spiritual Sonship and Daughtership with YAHWEH.”

I suggest to you that these men were members of the Spiritual family of YAHWEH through the Holy Spirit regardless of their physical lineage, which pre-empts any physical ties to genealogy. There will be Firstfruits who were never part of the genealogy of the physical sons of Israel. And by the way, Enoch and Noah were not descendents of the Sons of Israel (Jacob). It is very clear in Hebrews 11, that they are Firstfruits. This pretty well disproves any ideas that one had to be a physical descendent of Israel to become a Firstfruit.

Thirdly, you said,

“So is physical Israel just the unfaithful bad Israelites who are being given a second chance and the Jews and other Israelites who believed won’t be a part of physical Israel? People seem to be speaking of two Israels, one spiritual (faithful Moses, Daniel, Peter, Paul etc.) and the second physical (the unbelievers). “

David, I know that YAHWEH said that the physical nation of Israel turned to follow their own man made Gods and quit following Him time after time after time. I also know that YAHWEH said that blindness has happened in part to Israel because of these deeds and that they would not enter into His Rest, the Firstfruit Resurrection in my view. There was and will be again a Physical Nation of Israel. And, there has existed a Spiritual Family of Firstfruits unto YAHWEH, to include those chosen physical children of Israel such as David, since He began calling and choosing them from the creation of Adam.

What helps me a lot, is to understand that Israel was a name given to Jacob. Who was Jacob? He was the Son of Isaac. The twelve sons to Jacob become the family of Israel at that point in History. YAHWEH was working with many men and women prior to the formation of Jacob, to include His Father and His Father’s Father Abraham, and many earlier men whom YAHWEH poured His Spirit into and walked with them and said they were righteous men in his sight. And we see in Hebrews 11 and other places, that they will be Firstfruits. So, what we try not to do is confuse Firstfruits with a physical nation of Israel period. It certainly is not a pre-requisite for Firstfruit inheritance. However, we do see many parallels drawn in Paul’s writings that suggest that because of the Faithfulness of Abaraham, YAHWEH specifically promised His Salvation through His lineage, that is Yahshua and not salvation to every single physical descendent of Abraham.

I am working on an article to submit on Romans 11. I feel it has been misunderstood. In this chapter, YAHWEH addresses this very question. I will leave you with these questions and look forward to your comments. Is YAHSHUA the true branch? And if so, was He not pre-existing with the Father prior to the creation of man and His physical creation as a human being? And if this is true, what tree are we grafted into, the nation of Israel or the Family of YAHWEH?

May YHWH bless and keep all who seek His Face,