The way I understand it…

“Physical Israel” are those that seek to keep the “Physical laws”.

Spiritual Israel, are those that seek to keep the spirit/inner laws.

Those that seek to keep both, are also spiritual Israel.

For heaven and earth (physical/flesh) shall pass away…
But my words shall never pass away.

Now… the REASON “Physical Israel” are the last to enter… is because THEY ARE THE WITNESS >> TO >> the spirit laws.

If it were not for them keeping them in the physical…. We would never have come to understand them spiritually!

For every “physical” or “outer” law… there is an “inner” one.

The “New Covenant” or “New Promise” or the “new deal” IS:

Yah will write His laws on our INNER parts.

So one may seek to obstain from swine in the physical, but not seek to keep themselves from condemnation.

One may seek to harbor no condemnation, but not seek to keep themselves from physical swine.

One may be in the process of doing both. But if they are… it is usually that they are used to doing it in the physical, and are just now seeking it in their heart and mind.

And it is not out of the question… that this one will one day experience eating physical pork… and be attacked by Satan, with condemnation, the very thing he is truly not to eat.
But Yah has overcome the world… And He shall justify all that put their trust in Him to make them whole.

Physical Israel may not build steps up to the altar.
And they shall not make an altar with hewn stone. (carved out by man)

Spiritual Israel may not exalt themselves before Yah, when they go to offer their prayer.
They must not offer the works of their own hands as Cain did.
But offer the works of Yahs hands as Abel did.

There is an “outer law”, and an “inner law”.
The “inner law” is the new covenant.
The outer law is the old.
The outer law is “witness” to the inner law.

As the inner law takes place the outer law shall fade.
But the outer law cannot fade until all have come into the fold.

Therefore the first are last, and the last are first.

The first are last because it has been put in their charge to witness to the inner law.
After the time of the fullness of the gentiles is come (which I “think” is already)
Then physical Israel shall be grafted in, and they too will enter.

And it is because of them, that we were able to enter.
They shall receive the greater reward if there is a "greater reward" not sure i understand it context fully. but if there is one... they are gonna get it. and rightfully so!

If it were not for them keeping it in the physical,
What would one have to “look at” for a “witness” to even ask…
“O’ Yah, what does this thy law mean? How does it take place in thy spirit?
How does it take place in the hearts and minds of man?

And because man asks Yah about the works of His hands… Yah reveals HIMSELF to him.
For the heart of a man, and the spirit of a man… are indeed… the work of Yah.
For He and He alone, is the creator… there is no other.

Heb 8:7: For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Heb 9:1: Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary. {ordinances: or, ceremonies}

Notice in the above scriptures that the word “covenant” is in italics. This means that the translators inserted them. These insertions are VERY misleading. The subject of the Book of Hebrews from Chapter 1 THROUGH 10 is the PRIESTHOOD. In the above verses the word “first” refers to the Priesthood, NOT the Covenant.

There are many scriptures that affirm that the Covenant (Law) is perfect, able to convert the soul. Even the Law concerning the priesthood. It is MAN and his actions that make the Law of no effect; and that is exactly what Paul is referring to in these first chapters of Hebrews- and foremost among those men are the priesthood, the mediators of the Law. (rabbis, preachers and judges today)

It was the job of the priests to “write the law” upon the hearts (inner being) of the people. Out of greed, power, envy and lust, the priests perverted the law and thus all of Israel fell out of favor.

Thus, a “new” (actually means renewed) priesthood, one which predated the Aaronite priesthood needed to be reactiviated. This priesthood was established in the time of Abraham and was instituted with bread and wine (just as Messiah “renewed” it the night before the passover).

This Melchizedec Priesthood has ransomed and redeemed all of mankind starting with the elect, the called out ones, the brothers of Messiah, who will eventually be fellow priests and kings and judges under Messiah (the high priest). Although we will administer the law, we won’t have to teach the law, because of Messiah’s sacrifice we now have no further need of other shepherds, or rabbis, guru’s; but we who are studying the scriptures are assurred of a “comforter” who will guide us to truth and write His law in our hearts. (Just as with the elect of our “fathers”) as long as we obey the law.

So Paul relates to us in essence the “new” covenant is a renewed covenant MINUS the levitical priesthood (it hasn’t been around for 2000 years) and animal sacrifices (because the temple hasn’t been around for 2000 years) but with a “better” (more serviceable) priesthood. And this final sacrifice has enabled us who draw near to Yahuweh to become PERFECT (contrary to contemporary religious teaching)

Jay

Hope your Shabbat was a blessing unto you and yours!

Excuse me, sister, if I have not read the complete thread, and maybe this has already been addressed! Tonight is one of my "fly-by's," and I must get to sleep, [as in snoring] that my mind will have the time to receive into long-term memory that which I learned and acknowledged today in short-term! That's the theory anyway!

You have said these words:

"If they were the first to “conceive”… it seems they would be the first to manifest, or be brought forth. Somehow though I think there is more to it.
Because I am of the mind that David is one of the 144,000. And Isaiah."
There is no way that I am able to locate enough of this to quote to you both Chapter and verse, but I would that you recognize that David came under the power of the evil one [the power of death (that is, sleep . . . again! Now, seemingly a timely topic)], which is that power of death. Now, sleep is something that Yahweh allows, that we not be overpopulated on this little planet, as a place for fleshly decay to rest, of both the just, and the unjust!

Now, the Plan that has been in existence from before the foundation of the world [the everlasting gospel, or Plan of Salvation of Yahweh], shall show its full power in the days just before the Second Coming of Yahshua Messiah. The "full power" of the Plan of salvation, is to be able to save "man from his sins!" that is, that sin no longer has power anymore in a person's life, for that one has become as one with Yahshua, so that the one and Yahshua are no longer separated, but as one, even as Yahshua and Father Yahweh are one! This power is gotten and kept only by the indwelling understanding and faith in the "everlasting gospel [see Romans 1 & 1Corinthians 1, speaking of the "power of Elohim"]!"

When Yahshua is alive and well in the soul, so that "His glory" is truly perceived, then there is nothing any longer to fear from His appearing, for we are "as He is [see 1John 4: 17]!"

Now we already have Scriptural assurance that David has not as yet ascended into the heavens, correct! So, we know that David is asleep, awaiting the Second Coming of Yahshua, that His voice will bring him into his sinless and perfect body, forever. Thus, David will not be awake through the time of trouble, and this Time of Trouble, is that which actually flushes the dross from the 144,000 [we could say, the Time will perfect the faith of the 144,000, and only Messiah will finally be seen and heard as one in and through them]. These will show that the Plan is a full success, and not only is Yahshua perfect, but He is that Unique One Who has never sinned, and His grace has produced a first-fruits of those who will be taken into glory, which is the 144,000! Father, upon the perfecting of these saints, tells Yahshua it's time to come for the saints who are still in the ground sleeping, for the first-fruits from the earth [not the grave], have been accepted, and the rest are to come!

I pray this makes sense, for I see this in my soul, and sometimes, so clearly, I believe we are even "at the doors!" My prayer is that regardless what each will receive of the Gift of Yahweh, there will be no arguing [it's not to be part of the New Earth], but simply peace and joy forever! Really, I know this will be the case - I just have trouble sometimes in awaiting it!

------------------
2Corinthians 4: 6
Yahweh's promises
are enablings!

quote:

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brmarty wrote: “Yes, this can be difficult if you are trying to use Revelations alone as your source for “resurrection verses”. However, Eze. 37 is very clear in it’s intent that there will be a physical resurrection of the “whole house of Israel”.

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What is even more difficult is taking Eze. 37 and having the rest of the Bible conform to it. Let’s examine that chapter.

Ezekiel was carried out by the spirit and set down in the middle of a valley which was full of bones. The bones came together, skin covered them and breath came into them and they lived and stood up upon their feet. This (verses 1-10) was a vision, it did not actually happen, it was a vision of something that was going to happen.

Then Yahweh says these bones represent, “The whole house of Israel.” Now then does this mean every Israelite that ever lived? Does it? Or does it mean only those that fell short of making the spiritual resurrection? If that is the case then it is not the whole house of Israel.

Next, and take note of this, is proof that verses 1-10 was but a vision and the valley represented the world.

Eze 37: Eze 37:11 These bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord Yahweh; Behold, O my people, I WILL OPEN YOUR GRAVES, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

Is any consideration ever given to the context of this chapter? Ezekiel is captive with Israel in Babylon under Nebuchadnezzar and that is why their hope is lost and they are cut off. “I will open your graves,” does that refer to the bones in the valley? If Ezekiel is prophesying to the captive Israelites in Babylon, does it not have a bearing on their return to the land with Nehemiah?

quote:

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brmarty wrote: “This physical nation is not going to be tossed into the Lake of Fire. It is resurrected to “serve YAHWEH” forever. As far as the Firstfruit Resurrection, that will occur upon the return of Yahshua and prior to the beginning of the Millennium in my view and prior to the physical resurrection of the “whole house of Israel”.

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Because of this difficult and obscure chapter are we just guessing they will just be physical and that they won’t be judged and that they are not the faithful Israel as in Hebrews 11 and that this is a completely separate resurrection from the two in Revelation? Since it is so ambiguous where is our scriptural support?

quote:

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brmarty wrote: “I suggest to you that these men (Moses, Daniel, Peter, Paul) were members of the Spiritual family of YAHWEH through the Holy Spirit regardless of their physical lineage, which pre-empts any physical ties to genealogy.”

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Of course they are because of one single thing – FAITH.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is.

So the physically resurrected in Ezekiel did not have faith, did not please Yahweh for they did not believe in Him. If they did they would be as you say, “Members of the Spiritual family” along with Moses, David, Daniel etc.

quote:

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brmarty wrote: “I know that YAHWEH said that the physical nation of Israel turned to follow their own man made Gods and quit following Him time after time after time. I also know that YAHWEH said that blindness has happened in part to Israel because of these deeds and that they would not enter into His Rest, the Firstfruit Resurrection in my view. There was and will be again a Physical Nation of Israel. And, there has existed a Spiritual Family of Firstfruits unto YAHWEH, to include those chosen physical children of Israel such as David, since He began calling and choosing them from the creation of Adam.”

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My question was: Is physical Israel just the unfaithful bad Israelites who are being given a second chance and the Jews and other Israelites who believed won’t be a part of physical Israel? People seem to be speaking of two Israels, one spiritual (faithful Moses, Daniel, Peter, Paul etc.) and the second physical (the unbelievers).

quote:

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brmarty wrote: “Is YAHSHUA the true branch? And if so, was He not pre-existing with the Father prior to the creation of man and His physical creation as a human being? And if this is true, what tree are we grafted into, the nation of Israel or the Family of YAHWEH?”

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Yahshua is never referred to as the “true branch” but is called the “righteous branch” a few times. What does “true branch” mean to you?

No, Yahshua never pre-existed before Bethlehem otherwise he would not be the Son of God.

We are grafted into the nation of Israel. The “Family of Yahweh” is not mentioned in the Bible where do you get it? Although we could consider the nation of Israel as the family of Yahweh.

Hi Dave. I am having a difficult time understanding what you mean by asking me if I am sure about the scriptures of YAHWEH meaning what they say. Of course I am sure the scripture means what it says. The question is, whether or not we understand the meaning of what is being said in context, not whether or ot we believe them to be accurate or not, wouldn't you agree.:0)

Are you suggesting that it is impossible to prophecy through scripture using symbology and figurative gestures of speech? I have seen others "picking and choosing" because of a "lack of understanding" or failure to believe that YAHWEH means what He says in all the scriptures everytime He said it. The answer is not to discount Eze 37 because it contains symbolic language that perhaps does not make sense to us, but rather to pray for understanding of what it is saying.

you said,

"Because of this difficult and obscure chapter are we just guessing they will just be physical and that they won’t be judged and that they are not the faithful Israel as in Hebrews 11 and that this is a completely separate resurrection from the two in Revelation? Since it is so ambiguous where is our scriptural support?"

That is not a suggestion. Ezekiel 37 says this beyond any shadow of a doubt.

"KJV Ezekiel 37:6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am YAHWEH. "

And further along in the chapter, it is clear that they are taken back to the land to serve YAHWEH FOREVER.

"KJV Ezekiel 37:14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I YAHWEH have spoken it, and performed it, saith YAHWEH.

KJV Ezekiel 37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their ELOHIYM."

These humans will not be sinning. They have been cleansed and saved. This is one of the many verses that suggest that human beings can live sinfree, but only at this time and because YAHWEH has performed it. That time is in the future, not for humans now, for we know that it is impossible for us to be without sin.

The Firstfruit Resurrection is not a Physical Resurrection. It is a resurrection immediately into a Spiritual body, not physical. In fact, the Firstfruits, after being resurrected, are brought back to earth with YAHSHUA,

"KJV 1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that YAHSHUA died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in YAHSHUA will YAHWEH BRING with HIM. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of YAHWEH, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the YAHSHUA shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For YAHSHUA himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of YAHWEH: and the dead in YAHSHUA shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet YAHSHUA in the air: and so shall we ever be with YAHWEH. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

So, we see very clearly that there is another resurrection spoken of in Ezekiel 37 that is absolutely different than the Firstfruit Resurrection. And,in my view, occurs before the White Throne Resurrection, which occurs after the Millinniem setting, and is purely a judgement resurrection of all those who will be cast into the Lake of Fire.

What may be ambiguos to you makes perfect sense to me. Are we to discount scripture because of our lack of understanding, and I include myself, how it could fit in to our pre-conceived ideas of what and how the resurrections are to take place?

Dave, I am not saying that I am right. I am saying that because you may not see my view, that is now reason to discount scripture to fit your view, if in fact you do not share this understanding.

you said,

"So the physically resurrected in Ezekiel did not have faith, did not please Yahweh for they did not believe in Him. If they did they would be as you say, “Members of the Spiritual family” along with Moses, David, Daniel etc."

Are you agreeing with this statement? I cannot tell whether you do or do not believe in what you are talking about in reference to this chapter. You make statements that it is "ambiguous", yet you seem to agree with other statements that I have made. Help me understand.

you said earlier,

"Then Yahweh says these bones represent, “The whole house of Israel.” Now then does this mean every Israelite that ever lived? Does it? Or does it mean only those that fell short of making the spiritual resurrection? If that is the case then it is not the whole house of Israel."

In my view stated earlier, the Firstfruit Resurrection into the spiritual family of YAHWEH has already taken place. Thus, any remaining Israelites will constitute the whole, physical house of Israel remaining. This understanding does not leave any room for misunderstanding, nor does it suggest that YAHWEH somehow does not know how to discern the "whole house of Israel."

you said,

"Yahshua is never referred to as the “true branch” but is called the “righteous branch” a few times. What does “true branch” mean to you?"

I am not sure what your point is here either. Are you suggesting the YAHSHUA is not the True and Righteous Branch of YAHWEH, among other things?

KJV Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the spirit of YAHWEH shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of YAHWEH; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of YAHWEH: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:

KJV Jeremiah 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith YAHWEH, that I will raise unto David a righteous BRANCH, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

KJV Jeremiah 33:15 In those days, and at that time, will I cause the BRANCH of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land.

KJV Zechariah 3:8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH."

Are we not saved through YAHSHUA our MASTER? Figuratively speaking, is He not the True and Righteous Branch we are grafted into? The above verses, along with the following verse, seems to give me that indication,

KJV John 15:1 I(YAHSHUA) am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

"KJV John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. "

Every BRANCH in who? YAHSHUA. I will not argue over NT wording of "vine" and OT wording of "branch". To me, it is the same. Yes, I feel with certainty that YAHSHUA is the True and Righteous Branch or Vine we are grafted into.

you said,

"We are grafted into the nation of Israel. The “Family of Yahweh” is not mentioned in the Bible where do you get it? Although we could consider the nation of Israel as the family of Yahweh."

I am at a complete loss as to what you may be trying to say. Are you suggesting we are not grafted into the Family of YAHWEH? That is what the Firstfruits are all about. There were only few Israelites recorded that will become Firstfruits. You cannot seem to shed this idea that Israel was the only "family" chosen unto YAHWEH. What about Enoch and Noah and Abel and countless others who existed and are mentioned as Firstfruits unto YAHWEH in Hebrews 11? YAHWEH was forming a Firstfruit harvest long before Israel came along.

YAHWEH's plan, in my view, included choosing and calling some to Firstfruit, spiritual family status, and creating a physical nation to serve Him on earth. In my view, the Spiritual Firstfruits are not the Physical Resurrected house of Israel created and given a "new covenant" of everlasting peace and to be YAHWEH's people forever talked about in Eze., Isa, & Jeremiah. The Firstfruits are totally spiritual beings, not physical human beings.

you said,

"I see quite a few people have cut two things out of Ezekiel 37, [1] A physical resurrection for ALL of Israel and [2] A replanting of Israel back into their land. The context seems to be overlooked and other passages dealing with the resurrection compromised. Please be patience with me for I could be way off but I have yet to see anyone conform Ezek 37 with the rest of prophecy. "

Listen Dave, I could be way off in the pea patch as well.:0) What I am doing and strive to do is to let scripture interpret scripture, rather than skipping here and there because I can not make them fit what I think. All of scripture must agree or else YAHWEH messed up somewhere. I do not think that is an option.:0)

Many have these ideas of what the millinneum and resurrections entail. That's fine. I do not believe it is a salvational issue. However, I do believe one can be given understanding to a point as to what will happen. Am I saying my understanding is the right one? No Sir, and I hope I never come to that point. I can be as wrong as wrong can be. What I am trying to accomplish is to develop and understanding through praying for YAHWEH'S SPIRIT and Guidance, that I may be able to make all of the chapters fit a given scenario. Like yourself, I to believe that if an understanding is developed, it cannot contain direct conflict of scripture to support it. They all must fit. I am still learning myself, everyday.

One of the huge disadvantages we all have, is that we are at the mercy of the Translators who had an agenda. When they did not understand certain aspects or scriptures, they took great liberties to translate their belief structure into the texts. The New Testament is litterred with corrupt translations from corrupt text. The "New" or "Better" aspects of the so-called "New Testament" is one of the greatest deceptions, in my view, that has lingered throughout the past several hundred years. I hope to talk more about this aspect in the upcoming days, but I do want to stay in the Old Testament a while so that we can see that there is plenty of scripture that talks about the physical nation of Israel being brought back into the land, serving YAHWEH with a "new" and "everlasting" covenant that is not the same contract or covenant of faith or promise that the Firstfruits were and are given until the return of YAHSHUA.

Dave, I commend your interest on this topic as so many have already closed their minds to this subject because of years of indoctrinations from past organizations and groups. I pray YAHWEH opens our minds and pours His Spirit in us, giving us understanding because we want to learn and we have the desire to understand His Scriptures without letting ourselves get in the way.:0)

May YAHWEH bless and keep all who seek His Face,

your brother marty

Glad you made it back! I'm enjoying and learning from the current dialog between you and Dave. I think it's obvious I lean more to the way you have come to understand these issues, even though you and I may still not see things exactly the same. That's fine. I'm like you in that I don't claim nor want to be right (let YHWH be right and true). If anything any of us says happens to be right, it is not because WE are right, it is because YHWH is right.

Shalom Dave,

I just reiterate to you what I said above. I don't care who's right here in this forum because in the end YHWH will be right. In the meantime, this thread is helping me and hopefully others come to see some truly good news for the future. I think there is a greater hope in store for mankind than most religious folks in the world can fathom. I once was of the opinion like so many christians that the "good news" was that 90 plus percent of the population past and present were doomed and us few special righteous christians were going to live in paradise (knowing all the while that those who didn't measure up to where we were, those friends and family members who were just out there totally lost in this world are now either burning in agony or are just burned up and gone).

You have asked me a lot of questions and I have been away quite a bit. I would love to answer to the best of my ability all that I can find scriptural answers to. I have also presented much from scripture (and not just Eze 37) along with some of what admittedly are my ideas (whether revealed insight or not, I am not sure), to which you have not addressed.

I will hopefully be able to get at some other of your responses during the upcoming week so don't think I'm dodging. Some of what you say I agree with although you may not think I do... it's just different ways of looking at it.

Anyway, as to this response you gave to BrMarty, I had a few thoughts and just wanted to toss it in here...

You said: My question was: Is physical Israel just the unfaithful bad Israelites who are being given a second chance and the Jews and other Israelites who believed won’t be a part of physical Israel? People seem to be speaking of two Israels, one spiritual (faithful Moses, Daniel, Peter, Paul etc.) and the second physical (the unbelievers).

I respond: Yes I think it's entirely possible that YHWH will bring up the whole House of Israel, the good bad and ugly.

YHWH's arm is not limited that it cannot save. Who are we to decide who He saves? Paul said all of Israel will be saved. All of us from now back to Adam are guilty of transgressions. When you violote the law, you are guilty of all. So who is more worthy to live than another?

Y'shua's sacrifice (and the true and full revelation of exactly what it is and how it is applied to Israel) will be offered to all of Israel (and in fact to everyone of course, but to Israel first).

All of Israel to me means every Israelite who ever lived. I may be wrong I freely admit.

Some who are enlightened to the truth in the future physical resurrection may not accept the terms of the new covenant.. that will be a decision that person makes after once and for all being shown the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but truth. Nothing will hinder their decision but themselves.

I think most of Israel will accept the new covenant if not all. But later I do see that some will once again be deceived by satan when he is released from his chains. These will rebel against YHWH with a high hand, and of course they will be defeated and cast into the fire.

I have to run now. There is obviously a whole lot of ground to cover here. In fact it seems more and more to me that the essence of the bible is exactly what we are discussing here so it wouldn't surprise me if this thread goes on for a long long time!

Shalom and rest in YHWH's merciful arms!

T4T

Eze 37:11 (ISR Scriptures) And He said to me, “Son of man, these bones are all the house of Yisra’el. See, they say, ‘Our bones are dry, our expectan- cy has perished, and we ourselves have been cut off!’

Transgressors are cut off. It has always been thus. Who in all of the history of the earth did not transgress?

There are many many passages in the Tanak which say that YHWH will forgive His people's sins and remember them no more. Some He is starting with first. They are first fruits. Others He will save later. They are the harvest.

Pardon my initial contact here, but I believe that there is maybe something that allows you mention me not, neither my posts, so if I am again neglected here, I will understand [that this is so], yet know not why.

You have said:

"My question was: Is physical Israel just the unfaithful bad Israelites who are being given a second chance and the Jews and other Israelites who believed won’t be a part of physical Israel? People seem to be speaking of two Israels, one spiritual (faithful Moses, Daniel, Peter, Paul etc.) and the second physical (the unbelievers)."

Yahweh tells us, through the apostle Paul: "Not as though the word of Elohim hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel [it isn't hard for us to be able to see that what is being said, can only mean that those who call themselves literal Israelites (i.e., those with a true genetic descent from Father Abraham), do not all fit into the shoes of those who are the "Spiritual Israel of Yahweh," for what else can be meant here?]" (Romans 9: 6, KJV, emphasis & notations mine). And, what is it that Paul also said concerning the Israel of Yahweh:

"Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved" (Romans 9: 27, KJV)? Now, when we put to the test what Isaiah, and Paul quoting Isaiah, could mean, firstly, we must agree, I believe, for the sake of Scriptural integrity, that they both are speaking of the same thing! Isaiah isn't speaking of literal Israel, and Paul of Spiritual Israel. So what can we receive from these words, other than these each speak of that same thing? Let us reason, according to the words of Isaiah 1: 18!

Regardless if there is being spoken about, Literal Israel, or Spiritual Israel, the point above is this: Whether Literal or Spiritual, there is only going to be a remnant saved, regardless! Now, what of this remnant!

Those who will be saved, receive not salvation, just because they are literal Israelites, for this gives none "Carte Blanche" into the Kingdom of Yahweh! Because of the Justice that is inspired by the Agape of Yahweh, this would never be the case, for do we not hear over and over that Yahweh is no respecter of persons? Surely, this is the case, and He too wants His people to be not respecters of persons!

Having the "mind of Messiah," means that we are even as Messiah in our characters, and there was no caste system within His ministry, although His work was unto the lost tribes of the children of Israel, for those last seven years of the seventy week prophecy of Daniel 9: 24-27! For three and one half years Yahshua preached only unto Literal Israel [Himself], and the rest of that seven year span of that last week [another three and one half years], the Holy Spirit preached unto the Literal Israelites through His disciples, until, at the stoning of Stephen in 34 A.D., Paul was impressed with the words and countenance of Stephen [see Acts 7: 58: "And cast him (Stephen) out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul (this was Saul, who just days later became Paul, he that was sent unto the Gentiles by Yahshua, after the probationary time of literal Israel came to its sad close, forever!)].

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26: And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins" (Romans 11: 25-27, KJV, emphasis & notations mine).

As you see there were few notations, and the reason is this: Just above, we have proven that not all of either Literal Israel, or Spiritual Israel, will be saved, but rather a Remnant has always been the case, with the dealings of Yahweh with His people!

Now, here is the enigma, which when we have the facts, is an enigma no more! When we are sure of the understanding within the prophecy of Daniel 9: 24-27, we are certain that Literal Israel was given a probationary timeline of 490 years, and that was given, even as the probationary time to the Pre-deluvians by Noah, of one hundred and twenty[120] years, meaning that at the end of the probationary time, the die was cast, and both the Pre-deluvians that did not board the ark, and the literal Israelites who did not see and accept Yahshua Messiah as their only righteousness by 34 A.D. [thus put an end unto sinning by faith in Him], were, as a nation, no longer Yahweh's Chosen People, and never would be His Chosen People as a nation, again!

This is clearly the truth, for there are too many separate truths that line up in a perfectly straight row, that this be not the case! Yahweh has a people, who are Spiritual Israel, who will all be saved! Yet, even to this, there must be a caveat added, so that none will misunderstand, and be taken away with a pride of position that marks her/him too, to be forever not His.

Those who are of Spiritual Israel right at this minute, may not be as such, before the end of the age, or by the time each one of our individual lives ends, whichever comes first! There are Spiritual Israelites right at this moment who will not "overcome until the end" [see 2Peter 2:20: "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Yahshua Messiah, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning; and Revelation 2:26: "And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations"].

Those of Spiritual Israel only, who have up to and including this point particularly of earth's history, overcome "the lusts of the flesh, and the lusts of the eyes, and the pride of life," unto the end of their individual lives, not wavering in this, for they have all had the "mind of Messiah leading out in wakefulness through the Spirit's being received daily by a choice of faith toward Yahshua Messiah," and have fallen asleep "in Him," and thus have a crown of righteousness awaiting them, even as Paul said he had: "Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing" (2Timothy 4: 8, KJV), will receive salvation!

It is well that we all receive this, for Thus saith Yahweh: "all Israel will be saved!" yet, those attached caveats to this statement of the Spirit through Paul [as I have stated above], must be understood by all, lest we become among those who "[being]unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction" (2Peter 3: 16c, KJV).

There has been, and always will be until that Day of Yahshua Messiah, only a remnant that shall be saved: "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of YAHWEH shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem [please also remember tha tthe Jerusalem that is of this earth in the Middle East, is not the Jerusalem of Yahweh, but rather, The New Jerusalem that is free, which is the mother of us all (Galatians 4: 26)] shall be deliverance, as YAHWEH hath said, and in the remnant whom YAHWEH shall call" (Joel 2: 32, KJV).

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2Corinthians 4: 6
Yahweh's promises
are enablings!

[This message has been edited by JayYah (edited 02-23-2003).]

You had said: "This is how I see how a person is allowed to take part in the New Covenant. They believe in the Messiah Yahshua. That’s it! Only then are they permitted to sign on to the New Covenant."

My response: I think it is more than that. There are many who believe in the Messiah Y'shua, some believe He is YHWH, some believe He is the Angel of YHWH, etc. We've been down that road before. The New Covenant will be offered and the whole House of Israel will know who Y'shua is at that time. Another term to the New Covenant is that they will have to repent.

Apparently they will both repent and accept the true Messiah at the proper time that YHWH has ordained.

Ezekiel 36:8 But ye, O mountains of Israel, ye shall shoot forth your branches, and yield your fruit to my people of Israel; for they are at hand to come.

9 For, behold, I am for you, and I will turn unto you, and ye shall be tilled and sown:

10 And I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, even ALL of it: and the cities shall be inhabited, and the wastes shall be builded:

11 And I will multiply upon you man and beast; and they shall increase and bring fruit: and I will settle you after your old estates, and will do better unto you than at your beginnings: and ye shall know that I am YHWH.

12 Yea, I will cause men to walk upon you, even my people Israel; and they shall possess thee, and thou shalt be their inheritance, and thou shalt no more henceforth bereave them of men.

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Genesis 49:1 And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days.

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Hosea 3:4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim:

(Note: This couldn't refer to the time between Nehemiah and Messiah, for they had kings and sacrifices up to 70 AD. But since 70 AD they have had neither. At least the majority of them have had neither... the firstfruits of course have both a King and an ultimate Sacrifice.)

5 Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek their Elohim, and David their king; and shall fear YHWH and his goodness in the latter days.

As I had said before, I think the New Covenant may be offered to every Israelite. I don't know if every Israelite will accept and repent however, but I do think it will be offered. Those who do accept will constitute the whole House of Israel in my humble opinion.

Gotta run for now... back later.

Shalom,
T4T

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brmarty wrote: “The question is, whether or not we understand the meaning of what is being said in context, not whether or ot we believe them to be accurate or not, wouldn't you agree.”

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Yes, I would agree.

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brmarty wrote: “Are you suggesting that it is impossible to prophecy through scripture using symbology and figurative gestures of speech? I have seen others "picking and choosing" because of a "lack of understanding" or failure to believe that YAHWEH means what He says in all the scriptures everytime He said it. The answer is not to discount Eze 37 because it contains symbolic language that perhaps does not make sense to us, but rather to pray for understanding of what it is saying.”

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Yes, prophecy is often given in symbolism and the key is to understand the symbols. What do the bones symbolise or the valley, the very dry, the graves and the land. Does anyone really know this prophecy’s timeline or symbols?

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I had written: Because of this difficult and obscure chapter are we just guessing they will just be physical and that they won’t be judged and that they are not the faithful Israel as in Hebrews 11 and that this is a completely separate resurrection from the two in Revelation? Since it is so ambiguous where is our scriptural support?

brmarty wrote: “That is not a suggestion. Ezekiel 37 says this beyond any shadow of a doubt.”

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But you are now disregarding symbolism and interpreting it literally.

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brmarty wrote: “So, we see very clearly that there is another resurrection spoken of in Ezekiel 37 that is absolutely different than the Firstfruit Resurrection. And,in my view, occurs before the White Throne Resurrection, which occurs after the Millinniem setting, and is purely a judgement resurrection of all those who will be cast into the Lake of Fire.”

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This is pure speculation placing this resurrection in between the two known resurrections the Bible speaks of. Everyone resurrected must be judged.

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Eze 18:30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord Yahweh.
Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

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I had written: So the physically resurrected in Ezekiel did not have faith, did not please Yahweh for they did not believe in Him. If they did they would be as you say, “Members of the Spiritual family” along with Moses, David, Daniel etc.

brmarty wrote: “Are you agreeing with this statement? I cannot tell whether you do or do not believe in what you are talking about in reference to this chapter. You make statements that it is "ambiguous", yet you seem to agree with other statements that I have made. Help me understand.”

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I am suggesting these Israelites are not exempt from judgement and must accept Yahshua to be saved. Yahweh cannot just arbitrarily raise all the unfaithful House of Israel in a special resurrection and give them back their land and make them obey with His spirit. Not that Yahweh is incapable of it but because He has set in motion a program of judgement and salvation only through and by His only begotten Son and has told us there will be no exceptions to this program.

Joh 14:6 Yahshua said, “No man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Messiah Yahshua.

This is what troubles me with some people’s interpretation of Ezekiel’s passage. It clashes with the basic NT theme that all must come to Yahweh only through faith and that faith must be in Yahweh’s designated saviour. Also they must face this saviour on judgement day and be punished or rewarded for their deeds.

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I had written: Yahshua is never referred to as the “true branch” but is called the “righteous branch” a few times. What does “true branch” mean to you?

brmarty wrote: “I am not sure what your point is here either. Are you suggesting the YAHSHUA is not the True and Righteous Branch of YAHWEH, among other things?”

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I am stating that Yahshua is never ever called “the true branch.” He is called the righteous branch but is not called the true branch. I am not against you calling him the true branch but since Yahweh never saw fit to have him called the true branch in scripture but only the righteous branch that’s what I’ll stick to. Kind of picky on my part but I believe the less I stray from the actual wording of scripture the less I will tend to stray from its true meaning. After all, maybe Yahweh had a reason why Yahshua was only called the righteous branch and not the true branch.

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brmarty wrote: “Are we not saved through YAHSHUA our MASTER? Figuratively speaking, is He not the True and Righteous Branch we are grafted into?”

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Yes, of course we’re saved through Yahshua but it never says we’re grafted into Yahshua. Paul (Ro 11) and Jeremiah (Jer 11:16-17) tells us Israel is the olive tree and we are grafted into the olive tree. Yahshua himself is part of the olive tree of Israel that we are grafted into.

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I had written: We are grafted into the nation of Israel. The “Family of Yahweh” is not mentioned in the Bible where do you get it? Although we could consider the nation of Israel as the family of Yahweh."

brmarty wrote: “Are you suggesting we are not grafted into the Family of YAHWEH? That is what the Firstfruits are all about. There were only few Israelites recorded that will become Firstfruits. You cannot seem to shed this idea that Israel was the only "family" chosen unto YAHWEH. What about Enoch and Noah and Abel and countless others who existed and are mentioned as Firstfruits unto YAHWEH in Hebrews 11?”

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I am suggesting “the Family of Yahweh” is not mentioned in the Bible and we are only said to be grafted into Israel never said to be grafted into Yahshua or the Family of Yahweh. If anything we would be considered adopted, not grafted, into Yahweh’s family. Minute details maybe, but I find sticking to Biblical terminology helps us grasp a clearer picture of Yahweh’s plan.

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brmarty wrote: “YAHWEH's plan, in my view, included choosing and calling some to Firstfruit, spiritual family status, and creating a physical nation to serve Him on earth. In my view, the Spiritual Firstfruits are not the Physical Resurrected house of Israel created and given a "new covenant" of everlasting peace and to be YAHWEH's people forever talked about in Eze., Isa, & Jeremiah. The Firstfruits are totally spiritual beings, not physical human beings.”

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I question how the physical Israel in Ezek 37 can exist without Yahshua, without judgement, how they fit into the new heaven and new earth because this earth will pass away and “shall not be remembered, nor come into mind” (Isa 65:17, rev 21:1).

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brmarty wrote: “I pray YAHWEH opens our minds and pours His Spirit in us, giving us understanding because we want to learn and we have the desire to understand His Scriptures without letting ourselves get in the way.”

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Just dropped by for a sec... I'm at work and must be brief.

You said to BrMarty:
I question how the physical Israel in Ezek 37 can exist without Yahshua, without judgement, how they fit into the new heaven and new earth because this earth will pass away and “shall not be remembered, nor come into mind” (Isa 65:17, rev 21:1).

My quick response... if you read my posts, you will see that I agree that all of the House of Israel will be offered the New Covenant through Y'shua and yes, they will be judged according to their works and punishments will be given I believe. There will be great mourning and the people will loathe themselves for their transgressions. Yet for YHWH's name's sake He will forgive them and remember their sins no more and will again be their Elohim and they will be His people.

This in no way denigrates Y'shua's position as Mediator of the New Covenant. They will be judged, they will repent, and they will go to the Father through Y'shua and be healed.

Afterwards (maybe even immediately afterwards) I think many will rebel once more and align themselves with satan and be forever destroyed... at least I believe scripture gives strong indications of this but I can't necessarily prove that. I see hints of it in scripture.

Maybe these high handed rebels were offered the covenant and they accepted for expediency sake with rebelliousness in their heart still. Maybe they were never really part of the House of Israel, only temporary squatters or something. Maybe now I am getting too far into speculation and should just go back to work now

Hi Dave, and thanks for clarifying a few details for me.

you said,

"I am suggesting these Israelites are not exempt from judgement and must accept Yahshua to be saved. Yahweh cannot just arbitrarily raise all the unfaithful House of Israel in a special resurrection and give them back their land and make them obey with His spirit. Not that Yahweh is incapable of it but because He has set in motion a program of judgement and salvation only through and by His only begotten Son and has told us there will be no exceptions to this program"

I am suggesting to you that they have already been judged and found unworthy to enter into the Firstfruit Resurrection. He stated beyond doubt that they would not enter into His Rest, the firstfruit resurrection. YAHWEH is not resurrecting this nation because of their deeds, but rather because He swore He would do it because of His Name.

"KJV Isaiah 48:9 For my name's sake will I defer mine anger, and for my praise will I refrain for thee, that I cut thee not off.

KJV Ezekiel 20:44 And ye shall know that I am YAHWEH, when I have wrought with you for my name's sake, not according to your wicked ways, nor according to your corrupt doings, O ye house of Israel, saith YAHWEH."

I agree with you that all peoples will be judged. But I believe you are missing a key piece of information. Not all peoples are the physical nation of Israel. I believe there is a huge misconception that everyone that has ever lived and died up until the return of YAHSHUA will somehow get a chance in the millinneum to be resurrected and to know YAHWEH.

There are no scriptures that state this. In fact, the only scriptures that I find talking about a physical resurrection to serve YAHWEH are the ones referring to the physical nation of Israel, not the whole world.

you said,

"This is what troubles me with some people’s interpretation of Ezekiel’s passage. It clashes with the basic NT theme that all must come to Yahweh only through faith and that faith must be in Yahweh’s designated saviour. Also they must face this saviour on judgement day and be punished or rewarded for their deeds."

Again Dave, the physical nation of Israel was judged and will not be part of the Firstfruit Resurrection. However, it is only that nation of Israel that will be physically resurrected, not because of their deeds but because of YAHWEH's name as I stated above. Also, there are no scriptures in the New Testament that talk about alot of issues. Does that mean they will not happen? Where are the scriptures in the NT that define why Gog and Magog have been allowed to be created? Are these peoples who were remaining after the great tribulation? Why do they need to exist if they are still not following YAHWEH?

In other words, you may not find scriptures in the New Testament that talk about specific issues dealt with in the Old Testament. Does that make those scriptures invalid? By the way, let us remember that YAHSHUA did not teach by the NT books we have, rather through the OT books.

I believe this physical nation of Israel will be cleansed and used as an example for all of the remaining humans of the earth. I think those peoples remaining, not of the physical nation of Israel, will have an opportunity to change their ways. Those people have yet to be judged for they lived through the tribulation and did not die all over the world.

I will leave you with these last verses to ponder for now. I will try to get back here later today.

"KJV Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of YAHWEH is upon me; because YAHWEH hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of YAHWEH, and the day of vengeance of our ELOHIYM; to comfort all that mourn; 3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of YAHWEH, that he might be glorified. 4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations. 5 And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers. 6 But ye shall be named the Priests of YAHWEH: men shall call you the Ministers of our ELOHIM: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves. 7 For your shame ye shall have double; and for confusion they shall rejoice in their portion: therefore in their land they shall possess the double: everlasting joy shall be unto them. 8 For I YAHWEH love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them. 9 And their seed shall be known among the Gentiles, and their offspring among the people: all that see them shall acknowledge them, that they are the seed YAHWEH hath blessed. 10 I will greatly rejoice in YAHWEH, my soul shall be joyful in my ELOHIYM; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels. 11 For as the earth bringeth forth her bud, and as the garden causeth the things that are sown in it to spring forth; so YAHWEH YOUR ELOHIYM will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations."

May YAHWEH bless and keep all those who seek his Face,

Also in Isaiah we should note some things about a familiar passage which I will emphasize with bold type and underline:

Isaiah 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of YHWH revealed?

2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of Elohim, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and YHWH hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Who is the "we" Isaiah refers to here; Israelites or the gentile nations? I would say he included himself in that "we" and that the passage is primarily concerned with the nation of Israel.

He notes ALL of us has gone astray and also in the same sentence that YHWH laid the iniquities of ALL of us upon Y'shua.

Back to work now... SHALOM!

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JayYah wrote: “Pardon my initial contact here, but I believe that there is maybe something that allows you mention me not, neither my posts, so if I am again neglected here, I will understand [that this is so], yet know not why.”

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Yes, you are correct I have ignored some of your posts and please excuse me for doing that. But I have to be perfectly honest with you in many of your posts you tend to speculate, hypothesize and have what I consider a vivid imagination. This is difficult to respond to if one is intend on sticking to scripture. We got into this back when you and I were exchanging posts on, I think it was pre-existent Yahshua. Regardless of how I perceive your posts you do have a resilient spirit and a tolerant nature.

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JayYah wrote: “Yahweh tells us, through the apostle Paul: "Not as though the word of Elohim hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel [it isn't hard for us to be able to see that what is being said, can only mean that those who call themselves literal Israelites (i.e., those with a true genetic descent from Father Abraham), do not all fit into the shoes of those who are the "Spiritual Israel of Yahweh," for what else can be meant here?”

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My belief is that Israelites through the bloodline (direct physical descendants) are no longer counted as Israel but only those Israelites having faith in Abraham’s seed (Yahshua) are considered Israel. I quote the next verse in Romans.

Ro 9:6 For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham (bloodline), are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh (bloodline), these are NOT the children of God: but the children of the PROMISE are counted for the seed.

The Jews and other physical Israelites are no longer considered descendents of Abraham. They must again become children of Abraham through the door that is Yahshua.

Ro 2:28 For he is NOT a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

By faith in Messiah Gentiles also become a son of Abraham, grafted into the olive tree that is Israel (Ro 11:17), made a citizen of the commonwealth of Israel (Ep 2:12 & 19), no longer a Gentile but part of the "Israel of God" (6:16).

So even Gentiles become “heirs according to the promise” so that “the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law (Jews), but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham” (Ro 4:16).

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JayYah wrote: “For three and one half years Yahshua preached only unto Literal Israel [Himself], and the rest of that seven year span of that last week [another three and one half years], the Holy Spirit preached unto the Literal Israelites through His disciples.”

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Da 9:27 He shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease.

Yahshua confirmed the New Covenant with many (all of Israel) for the last week, extending, as you said, three and a half years after his death. After this week ended Israel as a whole was not reached out to. However, this does not mean individual Jews did not receive Messiah after that week.

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JayYah wrote: “"Blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26: And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer.”

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How will “All Israel be saved?” First of all how is anyone saved? There’s only one way to be saved, faith in Messiah. Who then qualifies as an Israelite? There is now only one way to be classified as an Israelite, through Abraham’s seed (Messiah).

Ro 9:8 They which are the children of the flesh (bloodline), these are NOT the children of God: but the children of the PROMISE are counted for the seed.

So, since you have to have faith in Messiah to be an Israelite and also have to have faith in Messiah to be saved then all Israel will be saved since only Israel believes in Messiah.

This doesn’t help us understand Ezekiel 37 but it does help us with Jeremiah 31.
Jer 31:33 This shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith Yahweh, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.