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DavidB Posts: 271 |
posted 02-24-2003 08:40 PM
  
Shalom Dave52 Nice to see somebody from Canada speaking. Whereabouts in Canada are you.... If you want to say. Check my profile. Your friend in YHWH  ------------------ 2 Corinthians 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. [This message has been edited by DavidB (edited 02-24-2003).] |
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Roy_G_Biv Posts: 505 |
posted 02-24-2003 08:44 PM
Peace be with you all, Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Mark 14:24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many. Luke 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. 1 Corinthians 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. 2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 2 Corinthians 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. IB ------------------ |
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brmarty Posts: 112 |
posted 02-24-2003 09:11 PM
Shalom and Peace to All, Hi Roy G. Biv. Interesting name. I used this acronym in school to remember all of the colors in the light spectrum.... I would suggest you take some time to research the origin of the Greek texts that have been used to render the translations with the word "new" used in tandem with "testament" or "covenant". I believe you could also benefit from going back to Page 1 of this thread and reading a rendition of an original posting I made discussing this very issue. The New Testament is littered with mistranslations from corrupt texts. I have done a study on this very topic and would be happy to mail you a copy of this information. I have absolutely no agenda and this information can be verified fairly easily. This offer extends to anyone who wishes to review this data and information pertaining to the NT and the Greek texts and their origins, not to mention specific data to support that the word "new" did not exist in the original texts in association with "testament" in the Passover accounts and most probably the 2 or 3 times it shows up in Paul's writings as well. May YHWH bless and keep all who seek His FAce, your brother marty |
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Dave52 Posts: 667 |
posted 02-25-2003 10:21 AM
quote: I can see we’re into a lot of speculation and expanding theories and I see nothing wrong with that.
quote: But I think you hit the nail dead centre when you said, “We haven't been given that information as yet.” What we’re discussing on this thread I also believe has yet to be clearly revealed but the fact it is being discussed and looked into might be an indication Yahweh will soon begin to shows us more. |
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Dave52 Posts: 667 |
posted 02-25-2003 10:28 AM
Hello Brother DavidB, good to have you aboard and pleased to have your input. I’m in Nova Scotia if you’d like to drop by you’re always welcome. Peace and blessing in Yahweh. |
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Dave52 Posts: 667 |
posted 02-25-2003 02:00 PM
quote: John 15:1 I (Yahshua) am the true vine, and my Father (Yahweh) is the husbandman. This is a parable, and take note that in this parable Yahweh is but the gardener and not related to His Son whatsoever. However it is never said that we are grafted into Yahshua, why do you insist that the word “grafted” is in this passage? We are grafted as branches into the olive tree that is Israel. Jer 11:16 Yahweh called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken. 17 For Yahweh of hosts, that planted thee, hath pronounced evil against thee, for the evil of the HOUSE OF ISRAEL and of the house of Judah, which they have done against themselves to provoke me to anger in offering incense unto Baal. Israel is classified as an olive tree in scripture. Isa 11:1 There shall come forth a shoot out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots. Yahshua is a single branch in the olive tree that is Israel, albeit the RIGHTEOUS BRANCH. Ro 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? Remember the New Covenant was not made with Yahshua but with Israel. In order to partake of the New Covenant we must be grafted into Israel (the party the covenant is made with) by faith in the mediator Yahshua.
quote: Who said anything about pre-empting Yahweh? And look what you said about families. When was anyone ever grafted into a family? We are adopted into Yahweh, not grafted. Eph 1:5 (God the Father) Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Yahshua Messiah to himself (Yahweh), according to the good pleasure of his will. |
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brmarty Posts: 112 |
posted 02-25-2003 02:36 PM
Shalom and Peace to All, Hi Dave, you said, "This is a parable, and take note that in this parable Yahweh is but the gardener and not related to His Son whatsoever. However it is never said that we are grafted into Yahshua, why do you insist that the word “grafted” is in this passage? We are grafted as branches into the olive tree that is Israel." I think you will find that calling Israel an "olive tree" is a symbolic reference just as a parrable can be. I am going to have to disagree that Israel is the root of this tree. Here is why, "KJV John 15:1 I(YAHSHUA) am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me(YAHSHUA) that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it ABIDE IN THE VINE; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing" Notice the language here Dave. " I am the vine, you are the branches....without me you can do nothing." In my view, there are no branches period that do not stem from YAHSHUA, whom is basically the expressed image of His Father YAHWEH. YAHWEH, through YAHSHUA, is the root of this tree. All branches stem from YAHSHUA. Also, I believe this is talking specifically about the "spiritual family of YAHWEH" being the FIRSTFRUITS ONLY. Again, you continue not to address the fact that Noah, Enoch and others who lived prior to Israel being formed are Firstfruits. How can this be? It is because YAHWEH is the root, through YAHSHUA, and we will become family members of His Family. Spiritual Israel and the rest of the spiritual Firstfruits will become family members of YAHWEH, not the other way around, in my view. Thus, we see that the Firstfruits are not grafted into the family of Israel. They are grafted into family of YAHWEH by the only true vine(or root) being YAHSHUA. These verses should truly support exactly what I have stated above, "KJV Romans 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and IF THE ROOT BE HOLY, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with the PARTAKEST OF THE ROOT and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest NOT THE ROOT, BUT THE ROOT THEE. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in."
you said, "Remember the New Covenant was not made with Yahshua but with Israel. In order to partake of the New Covenant we must be grafted into Israel (the party the covenant is made with) by faith in the mediator Yahshua." Again, Dave, my view is that the "new Covenant" will not be made with the Firstfruits, which include some of Israel. The "new covenant" will be made with the physical nation of Israel resurrected after the Firstfruit resurrection, and created to inhabitat the earth to serve YAHWEH forever. The Covenant of Faith or Promise existed at the creation of Adam and up until YAHSHUA returns. There are no scriptures that state Enoch or Noah needed to grafted in Israel. Israel did not exist period. Yet they are Firstfruits. This fact in itself, discludes any notion that Spiritual Israel represents all of the Firstfruits. There are many Firstfruits who lived prior to the formation of the family of Israel.
May YHWH bless and keep all who see His Face, your brother marty |
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Roy_G_Biv Posts: 505 |
posted 02-25-2003 08:42 PM
I gather you are trying to tell me that the word 'new' is false. I don't believe in that kind of tearing down the scripture. Please clarify if I'm wrong about what you're point is. IB ------------------ |
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DavidB Posts: 271 |
posted 02-25-2003 08:48 PM
quote: Shalom Dave52 ------------------ 2 Corinthians 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. [This message has been edited by DavidB (edited 02-25-2003).] |
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Dick Posts: 247 |
posted 02-25-2003 10:58 PM
Brethren Dave52, I cannot answer all your questions in detail, but I have decided to give you questions that LEAD to answers instead: What is the New Covenant? Who are Jisraelites? If I am a Gentile, how do I become a citizen of the Commonwealth of Jisrael? Why did Jacob adopt the sons of Joseph? What is the Promise? Why does the Scripture say that all of Jisrael shall be saved? Saved from what? Is there a second spiritual resurrection? Why does it seem that the eschatology of Ezekiel differ from that of Revelations? These questions are the essence of what I believe in. Ask the Holy Spirit or mail me at dick.cueto@siemens.com if you want the answers and references to Scriptures. I do realize that my beliefs represent a radical departure from conventional eschatology, but I stand by it. I thank JHVH for all the revelation and understanding. All glory belongs to JHVH. [This message has been edited by Dick (edited 02-26-2003).] |
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brmarty Posts: 112 |
posted 02-26-2003 09:11 AM
Shalom and Peace to All, Hi Roy G. Biv. In reference to your comments, I believe you would benefit greatly from the information I have gathered about this specific topic, to include the origin of the Greek Texts used by the Translators for our so-called "new testament". If you are interested, please feel free to email me at mawilsons@cs.com, and I will be more than happy to get your address and mail this to info to you. You can verify this information easily. It is a eye opener to anyone who has not really spent anytime looking into the origins of the Greek Texts. As far as your comment about "tearing down" of the scripture, that is the farthest thing from my mind. In fact, it does not exist. My goal is to "prove all things" and "hold fast to that which is good". If you are using the King James Version or similar thereof to prove YAHWEH's word, you have a rude awakening ahead of you, brother.:0) Of course, this information is available to anyone who would like to contact me via email so that your addresses can stay anonymous. May YAHWEH bless and keep all who seek His Face, your brother marty |
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torah4today Posts: 1113 |
posted 02-26-2003 10:52 AM
Shalom Dick, Wow that's a good list of questions! You don't ask much do you? T4T |
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Dave52 Posts: 667 |
posted 02-26-2003 12:12 PM
quote: Could you please answer these questions:
quote: So Yahweh you say is the root and Yahshua is the vine. However, the passage you keep using (Jn 15:1-6) does not say Yahweh is the root but says Yahweh is the husbandman. It’s quite a leap to make the husbandman part of the plant. Can you give me a single verse where Yahweh is called the root?
quote: Now you have Yahshua as the root and not Yahweh. And in another place you wrote, “The only true vine (or root) being YAHSHUA.” Now in this passage Yahshua is called the vine, not the root, and Yahweh is called the husbandman and not the root, yet you have them both at some point called the root which makes things rather confusing.
quote: In the Bible Messiah is called firstfruits (1Co 15:20), Israel is called the firstfruits (Jam 1:18) and the second group of 144,000 are called firstfruits (Rev 14:4).Abel, Noah and Enoch etc. were saved through faith in Yahshua and will be included in the first resurrection as spiritual saints. Since the term “firstfuits” is so limited in scripture in regards to the resurrection (only three times) and those references give us next to noting to go by I tend to shy away from using it.
quote: Do you look at words like “adoption” (Ga 4:5, Ep 1:5) and “baptized into” (Ro 6:3, Ga 3:27) as if Paul was saying “grafted”? I find if I misrepresent words or use other words in their place it sets me back in my understanding. The Bible tells us we are grafted into an olive tree but never says we are grafted into Yahshua, Yahweh or a family. If you want the olive tree to represent Yahweh or His family I think it will mislead you in your understanding.
quote: So are there two New Covenants, the one you speak about with physical Israel and the one Yahshua made? Mt 26:28 For this is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. That covenant was made with Peter, Paul and James and they don’t expect to remain physical but be resurrected spiritual.
quote: Can you give me more info on this “Covenant of Faith or Promise” for I have not heard about it? |
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brmarty Posts: 112 |
posted 02-26-2003 01:24 PM
Shalom and Peace to All, Hi Dave, Again, let us step throught the scriptures. you said, "So Yahweh you say is the root and Yahshua is the vine. However, the passage you keep using (Jn 15:1-6) does not say Yahweh is the root but says Yahweh is the husbandman. It’s quite a leap to make the husbandman part of the plant. Can you give me a single verse where Yahweh is called the root? Dave, I believe the problem you are having is failing to understand that YAHSHUA IS A YAHWEH AND SO IS FATHER YAH. Together they are ELOHIYM, a plural title. Individually they are ELs, which is a singular title. "KJV John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with YAHWEH(the Father), and the Word was YAHWEH(the Son). "KJV Proverbs 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?" YAHSHUA WAS FATHER YAH'S SON FROM THE BEGINNING. When we talk about YAHSHUA, we must remember that He was the expressed image of the Father, "KJV Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son (YAHSHUA), whom he (FATHER YAH) hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he (FATHER YAH) made the worlds; 3 Who(YAHSHUA) being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his (FATHER YAH'S) person, and upholding all things by the word of his(FATHER YAH'S) power, when he(YAHSHUA) had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on hig (FATHER YAH);" All of these verses agree with eachother. So let us continue. I said previously, ""KJV Romans 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and IF THE ROOT BE HOLY, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with the PARTAKEST OF THE ROOT and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest NOT THE ROOT, BUT THE ROOT THEE. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in."
Who Is the Root? I am stating for the record, very clearly that YAHWEH THROUGH HIS SON YAHSHUA IS THE ROOT. YAHSHUA, though a different entity, has all of the same characteristics and Spirit as the Father. If YAHSHUA DID OR DOES SOMETHING, IT IS AS IF THE FATHER PERFORMED IT. "KJV Matthew 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. KJV Luke 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him." you said, "So Yahweh you say is the root and Yahshua is the vine. However, the passage you keep using (Jn 15:1-6) does not say Yahweh is the root but says Yahweh is the husbandman. It’s quite a leap to make the husbandman part of the plant. Can you give me a single verse where Yahweh is called the root?
Now you have Yahshua as the root and not Yahweh. And in another place you wrote, “The only true vine (or root) being YAHSHUA.” Now in this passage Yahshua is called the vine, not the root, and Yahweh is called the husbandman and not the root, yet you have them both at some point called the root which makes things rather confusing."
Israel is not the giver or grantor of Salvation. YAHWEH the FATHER IS THAT ENTITY THAT GRANTS SALVATION AND ONLY THROUGH HIS SON YAHSHUA. There is no other way to obtain it. you said, "The Bible tells us we are grafted into an olive tree but never says we are grafted into Yahshua, Yahweh or a family. If you want the olive tree to represent Yahweh or His family I think it will mislead you in your understanding." Dave, whether you believe I am mislead or I believe you to be mislead is irrelevant. You have an understanding. Live your faith. I have an understanding, and I will live my faith. I have been hoping that you will see that this plan is not about the Family of Israel, but the Family of YAHWEH. The CHILDREN OF ISRAEL were physical human beings, not YAHWEHS. Many of them will not be Spiritual Firstfruits. They, in themselves, could do nothing. Had YAHWEH not chosen this family, they would be as dead as the rest of the world. This plan was partly about creating and expanding the YAHWEH fAMILY, NOT THE ISRAEL FAMILY. Noah and Enoch were not part of the ISRAELITE FAMILY. "KJV 2 Corinthians 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith YAHWEH the Almighty. KJV Matthew 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. KJV Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. KJV Matthew 6:1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. KJV Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven."
you said, "Can you give me more info on this “Covenant of Faith or Promise” for I have not heard about it? " Have you not been reading my posts Dave. I have mentioned these covenants several times and my view of their relationships. In my view, there were several covenants YAHWEH made with men, some dealing with salvation some not. The Covenant of Faith or Promise, defined in Hebrews 11 and other places, is for the Spiritual Firstfruits. The "new covenant" talked about in JEREMIAH is for a physically resurrected nation of israel in the future after the Firstfruit Resurrection. May YAHWEH bless and keep all who seek His Face, your brother marty |
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Dave52 Posts: 667 |
posted 02-26-2003 01:27 PM
QUOTE]Dick wrote: “I cannot answer all your questions in detail, but I have decided to give you questions that LEAD to answers instead:”[/QUOTE] Doesn’t sound fair but I’ll try and answer a few.
[A.] A contract between Yahweh and those who believe on His Son. What is the major difference between the New Covenant and the Old Covenant? [A.] The blood Wasn't the Holy Spirit present in the Old Covenant? [A.] Yes Who is the mediator of the New Covenant? [A.] Yahshua What is the promise of the New Covenant? [A.] Eternal life Why was there a need for a New Covenant? [A.] Old one was weak in the flesh. Is the New Covenant exclusively for Jisrael? [A.] Yes [A.] Believers in Yahshua What is Jisreal? [A.] One of the parties that made the New Covenant Does the so-called "Spiritual" Jisrael exist? [A.] What is “Spiritual Israel”? Are Jews Jisraelites? [A.] Only if they believe in Yahshua In modern times, how are Jisraelites classified in Scriptures? [A.] What are “modern times”? Does Ezekiel 37:19 mention two groups of people (Jisrael and Judah)? Or are there actually three groups (including Joseph) holding two sticks? [A.] Just two [A.] Through Messiah Yahshua Do I become part of the New Covenant in water baptism? [A.] That’s part of it How does the Messiah graft us into Jisrael physically? [A.] How is “physical” different from “spiritual”? To what tribe shall a Gentile be classified into once he/she becomes a Jisraelite? [A.] It won’t matter Has the New Covenant been accepted by all of Jisrael at this time? [A.] Yes, because one has to go in through Messiah to be Israel Who are the elect few who have agreed to the terms of the New Covenant? [A.] All those who accept the blood of the mediator When will the elect few who have accepted the New Covenant be rewarded? [A.] When the mediator returns Is the Promise of Eternal Life part of the New Covenant--is it a prerequesite or is it a REWARD? [A.] Yes, part of the NC (Heb 9:15) and it is a reward (Jn 10:28, Rom 6:23) Is Jehoshua Messiah the Seed of Promise? [A.] Yes Is the Seed of Promise (that is, the True Vine and Olive Tree) different from the tree of Jisrael? [A.] The True Vine is different then the Olive Tree (Israel) since the True Vine is part of Israel Are you saying that the Olive Tree mentioned in Romans is NOT Jisrael? [A.] I am saying it is Israel Could it be the "fruitfull bough" mentioned in Jacob's blessing to Joseph? [A.] I don’t know Who are the Children of Promise? [A.] Believers in Messiah Is the PROMISE truly ETERNAL LIFE, as stated in the New Covenant? [A.] Yes Are all Jisraelites Children of Promise (that is, Children of Eternal Life)? [A.] Only if they enter in the door (Jn 10:9) If we become Children of Promise (that is, Children of Eternal Life), are we still part of Jisrael? [A.] Two promises, the promise to Abraham was Messiah, the promise of the NC is eternal life (Heb 9:15, 1Jn 2:25) Why does the Scripture say that all of Jisrael shall be saved? Saved from what? [A.] Lake of Fire Is the first resurrection spiritual, physical or both? [A.] Spiritual
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