Greetings.

Gen 1:27 So Elohim created man in his own image, in the image of Elohim created he him; male and female created he them.
So in fact man was not created in their image and their likeness, but in HIS image.
Should the following scriptures really read.....??
Gen 1:31 And Elohim saw every thing that they had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day Elohim ended his work which they had made; and they rested on the seventh day from all their work which they had made.
Gen 2:18 And Yahweh Elohim said, It is not good that the man should be alone; We will make him an help meet for him.
Gen 6:7 And Yahweh said, I will destroy man whom We have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that We have made them.

My view: can be accepted or rejected.

1Cr 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is the Messiah; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of the Messiah [is] Yahweh.

the word Head means the following (sacredname inserted, Messiah insteadd of Ch-st)

1) the head, both of men and often of animals. Since the loss of the head destroys life, this word is used in the phrases relating to capital and extreme punishment.
2) metaph. anything supreme, chief, prominent
a) of persons, master lord: of a husband in relation to his wife
b) of Yahshua : Master of the husband and of the Assembly
c) of things: the corner stone
This is the Order of Creation. Yahweh Elohim created Yahshua and was the first born of all. Yahshua created Man according to their image of His Father, and woman created after the image of man, but the differences is the Hair. So when the verse says, Gen 1:27 So Elohim created man in his own image, in the image of Elohim created he him; male and female created he them. ".
The created Man was done by "Yahweh through His Son", that is why created He him; male and female created He them."Pro 8:30 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights [were] with the sons of men.
Pro 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what [is] his name, and what [is] his son's name, if thou canst tell?

Question: When did Yahshua became the Son of Yahweh? if He was not with the Father.

Thanks for sharing,

quote:

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Originally posted by AHAVAH:
Roy_G_Biv
Have you not heard of a Kinsman redeemer? Do you not see the Messiah in the Book of Ruth? Do you not know that a man can redeem another man. The laws of Kinsman redeemer requires another MAN to redeem him, to restore what His brother has lost, or cannot pay. Yeshua our Redeemer has paid the price we could not pay. HaShem set this law and it cannot be changed even by Him. He doesn't change!!! "Can a Man redeem another mans soul? The price is too High". [look it up]. It does not say it is impossible!!! But Yeshua paid it at the HIGHEST COST. Blessed be He forever and ever and GLORY to Elohym in the HIGHEST!

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Answer: John 17
1 ¶ These words spake Yahshua, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Yahshua Messiah, whom thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6 ¶ I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 ¶ And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 ¶ Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 ¶ Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 ¶ Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

Gen 1:27 So Elohim created man in his own image, in the image of Elohim created he him; male and female created he them.

So in fact man was not created in their image and their likeness, but in HIS image.

Should the following scriptures really read.....??

Gen 1:31 And Elohim saw every thing that they had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day Elohim ended his work which they had made; and they rested on the seventh day from all their work which they had made.

Gen 2:18 And Yahuah Elohim said, It is not good that the man should be alone; We will make him an help meet for him.

Gen 6:7 And Yahuah said, I will destroy man whom We have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that We have made them.

In the void of their separation from the Temple, they have substituted new rules and new Torot (instructions) based upon foreign and pagan models of connecting with the divine. They have forgotten that it is not they who determine what HaShem accepts or does not accept, as payment for the sins or men. They would have done better to recall that HaKodosh, Baruch Hu (the Holy One of Israel, Blessed be He) determines what is necessary, or sufficient as a sacrifice. We do not.

Their rallying cries in the defense of the G-d/Man principle have often been, "No mere man can die for the sins of men, and make a way for salvation! Human blood could never suffice! Rather only the blood of G-d alone can atone for sins!" Never mind that the Torah teaches that it is impossible for G-d to have blood, let alone the fact that their ideas completely obliterate the balance of the Torah's undisputed teaching, which declares just the opposite, that it is precisely MAN who must die to atone for his own sins and those of his nation, through blood.

Hence the promise was delivered, that a very special and unique Man would be sent, who would be called "Mashiach" -- anointed to G-d, and he would save his people from their sins.

However, the criteria was that this man had to fit the pattern of what had already been revealed to Moshe. A much later Hellenistic substitution, based upon idolatry, would never do. For this reason the Temple Service was given, so that all things future, might be measured by its standard, which was not determined by the design of men, but by the design of HaShem Himself.

This design was transmitted to Moshe in the form of "Tavnit HaMishkan" (the mold or pattern of the Tabernacle), and was entirely a copy, true to the original, shown to Moshe (Shm'ot [Exodus] 25:9) on the Mountain (Sinai), which eternally exists only in G-d's Heaven.

From this mold, our ONLY Heaven-authorized example, did we begin to learn how to approach HaShem, through live, real time demonstrations that were given to the Jewish People, in order to illustrate how redemption works for mankind, through the offices of the HUMAN Priesthood. The Temple service was TO G-d. It was never initiated BY Him.

The Priesthood was never, ever demonstrated in terms of "G-d coming down to earth in the Body of Messiah, reducing Himself to human form. G-d can never become one of US. Rather, Yeshua elevates us, to become like him, because he is like his Father.

What magnificent lies have gripped the Church since the day that the The Nicene Creed was concocted and delivered, together with its Torah-antithetical declaration of Yeshua, who supposedly being "Very G-d of Very G-d... came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit..." Thus, Yeshua becomes the antithesis of Moshe, instead of his full realization, and he becomes the bearer of bad news for the Jews, rather than good news.

ANOTHER YESHUA OR ANOTHER VIEW OF YESHUA?

But there is another way to view him. Yeshua is the unique man, who had previously existed in a divine form, or better still, a form of G-d likeness, as part of the plan of G-d (the Tavnit HaMishkan). But he did NOT consider himself as equal with G-d, nor did he conceive an equality with G-d as something he could grasp, or rob from G-d. Rather, once the plan of G-d was created and birthed in human form, he, setting an example for the rest of us to follow, became as nothing, and humbled himself by taking on the very nature of a servant, by his obedience as a Son to his Father, even to the point of death, on a tree (Phil 2:5-8).

Perhaps now we can begin understand why Melech Shlomo/King Solomon brings this proverb:

The first to present his case seems right, till another comes forward and questions him. (Pro 18: 17).

The Gentile Church Fathers have presented their case. Now, the Jews are coming along to question it, because it does not seem right. And they are not alone. Take for instance the following excerpts from Colin Brown's article (Ex Auditu, 7, 1991) entitled "Trinity and Incarnation: In Search of Contemporary Orthodoxy."

Colin Brown (DD.) is Professor of Systematic Theology at Fuller Seminary and general editor of the New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology.
It seems to me to be a fundamental mistake to treat statements in the Fourth Gospel about the Son and his relationship with the Father as expressions of inner-Trinitarian relationships. But this kind of systematic misreading of the Fourth Gospel seems to underlie much of social Trinitarian thinking. Thus statements like "I and the Father are One" (John 10:10) and those about the mutual indwelling of Yeshua and the Father (John 10:38; 10-11, 20; 17:21, 23) are taken to be statements about inner relations of the "persons" of the Trinity. However, the Fourth Gospel itself does not require such a reading. When read in context, the statements are evidently statements about Yeshua relationship with the Father on earth. It is a common but patent misreading of the opening of John's Gospel to read it as if it said: "In the beginning was the Son, and the Son was with G-d and the Son was G-d" (John 1:1). What has happened here is the substitution of Son for Word (Greek: Logos), and thereby the Son is made a member of the godhead which existed from the beginning. But if we follow carefully the thought of John's prologue, it is the Word that preexisted eternally with G-d and is G-d. The same Word that made all things and is the light that enlightens human kind "became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father" (John 1:14; cf. vv. 3 & 8). In other words Son-language in John denotes the Word made flesh in Yeshua who as such speaks G-d's Word to human beings on earth. One is left wondering whether the thorny questions of later ages might have been avoided if the church fathers had kept strictly to the language of John's prologue as their paradigm for speaking of trinity and Incarnation. What preexists is not the Son per se but the Logos. In John the Logos is not begotten or generated. The Logos was with G-d and was G-d, and in the course of time became flesh as the Son.

THE LONG VERSION
With the above in mind, lets now get back into our time machine, and join Yochanan as he begins to think out-loud, the long version and continuation of his prologue. Chapter 1, verse 1...

"HaShem was in the beginning. He spoke WORDS before creation, and through the power of those WORDS, the world was created. Those WORDS were with Him, and they were all divine, because they represented the mind and will of HaShem, our Torah. "
"Good. Now how can I shift focus to help my readers relate to the Torah. I've got it..."
"In the Torah, was life."
"Even Melech Shlomo taught us this is Proverbs 3. 'The Torah is a tree of life to all who take hold of her.'"
"This life was the light of mankind. And that light of Torah shines in the darkness, and the darkness does not suppressed it in any way."

"Ok, now at this point, I must find a way to introduce Yeshua, who will be the subject of the rest of my account. But rather than jump right in, I'll cover some history first. I should tell my readers about Yochanan the Matbil, who just prior to Yeshua's appearing, began to call all Israel to repentance, through the Mivkeh (ritual bath). Yochanan came to testify about the Torah, which was the light to mankind."
"A man was born, who was sent forth from G-d; his name was Yochanan the Matbil.
Now, he came to testify, to bear witness concerning the light of Torah, so that as many as possible might repent, and return to G-d, and to His instructions, in order that through the delight of our Torah, everyone might put their trust in G-d and then become faithful to HaShem.
Of course Yochanan himself was NOT the light of Torah. Rather, he came in order to testify concerning that light. The Torah was the true light which enlightens each and every human being entering into the world, and Yochanan simply announced it. In the world, the Torah existed. In fact, the world actually came into being through the Torah, which were the WORDS of G-d, expressing the very mind and will of G-d for the world. The only problem is that the world did not realize this, and it rejected His wisdom, though some accepted it, when He gave it to His Chosen People, Bnei Israel. G-d chose Bnei Israel to bring the Torah to the whole world. So, to those whom the Torah belonged , it came, in the course of history. But even those to whom the Torah was given, did not accept it all together as an entire nation. But whenever an individual in our nation did take it, and put their trust in it, to the very same, the Torah gave power to that person, to be born again, and emerge as a child of G-d; even to those who were believing in the Name of the Holy One of Israel. None of this came as a result of one's bloodline, or some physical impulse or even human intention , but because of G-d Himself."

"Alright. I've now laid enough foundation from the beginning of beginnings. I've explained G-d. I've explained the Torah, and I've explained Yochanan the Matbil [Immerser]. This would be the time to introduce Yeshua, as the Torah which took upon itself flesh."

"One day, G-d brought about an event where the WORDS of His Torah would be realized, just as He has promised, in a man, who was created and born, for this very purpose. This man, then dwelt or tabernacled among us. What G-d did was clothe His WORDS, our Torah, in flesh, in the act of sending His unique Son to the world. And we saw with our own eyes, through this man's life, G-d's Shíkhinah (glory), this self-same unique Shíkhinah which comes only from the Father . And it was full of Hesed v'Emet (grace and truth). The Son literally exemplified the full Shíkhinah (glory) from His Father, since the Name of the Messiah came before all other created things, as part of G-d's mind and will for His creation. Yochanan testified concerning this man. He cried out saying:"This is the MAN I was talking about when I said, 'The one after me comes before me, because his name existed prior to my existence. Yes, even though Yochanan was born before the Son , the Son preceded Yochanan, because He was the plan of G-d from the beginning. For G-d announced it as such in the fullness of the Tenach.'" Extending out the Torah's fullness through the arrival of this Man, there is now no doubt that we have all received a double portion of grace. Literally grace on top of grace. This is because the written Torah, through Moshe, was something that was only handed down to us passively. We couldn't really experience it or watch it in live action. But Hesed v'Emet (grace and truth), through Yeshua HaMashiach, was actually born and lived actively for all to behold, for Yeshua was the very essence of Torah. "

"Thus, G-d's plan came full circle. But I still need to capture the special relationship between the invisible Father and His visible Son, so that no one will be tempted to think that there is more than one G-d. Hmmm, lets see... the only way I can do that is to reveal what makes the Son so special and unique. Yes, of course... in one final sentence...

"Now everyone knows that no one has ever seen G-d , ever, and yet lived to tell about it. No one except for ONE PERSON, in the history of man, that is. And that one person was G-d's only and unique Son, who was in the intimacy of the Father's mind, before G-d even created the world. And G-d has declared him and explained him, through the Torah."

THE SHORT VERSION
Now with a bit of editing, I'll shorten the prologue to the following......
Verse 1 In the beginning was the Torah, and the Torah was with G-d, and godlike was the Torah.
Verse 2 It (the Torah) was with G-d in the beginning.
Verse 3 All things came to be through it, and without it nothing made had being.
Verse 4 In it was life, and the life was the light of mankind.
Verse 5 And that light shined in the darkness, and the darkness not suppress it in any way.
Verse 6 There emerged a man sent forth from G-d; his name was Yochanan (HaMatbil).
Verse 7 He came to testify, to bear witness concerning the light (of Torah), in order that through it everyone might put his trust in G-d and be faithful to Him.
Verse 8 Not that Yochanan himself was the light of Torah, but that he came in order to testify concerning the light.
Verse 9 The Torah was the true light that enlightens each and every human being entering into the world.
Verse 10 In the world it was (existing), for the world actually came into being through it, but the world did not realize it.
Verse 11 To that which was its own, it came, and those who were its own, did not accept it.
Verse 12 But whoever did take it and put their trust in it , to them it gave power to emerge as children of G-d; to those who were believing in His Name;
Verse 13 not as a result of one's bloodline, physical impulse or human intention, but because of G-d.
Verse 14 And the Torah emerged as a human being. And HE dwelt (tabernacled) among us -- and we beheld with our eyes, His Shíkhinah (glory), the self-same unique Shíkhinah from the Father, full of Hesed v'Emet (grace and truth).
Verse 15 Yochanan testified concerning him. He cried out saying: "This is the MAN I was talking about when I said, 'The one after me comes before me, because he (his name) existed prior to me (my existence).'
Verse 16 Likewise, extending out its (the Torah's) fullness, we have all received grace on top of grace.
Verse 17 For the Torah, through Moshe, was something given (passively); but Hesed v'Emet (grace and truth), through Yeshua HaMashiach, actually came into being (actively)."
Verse 18 Now, G-d -- nobody has ever seen Him, ever. However, the only and unique Son, who is at the Fatherís side (in intimacy) can and has, for G-d has declared and explained him.

óYochanan 1:1-18

It would appear so far that it never entered Yochanan's mind to introduce us to G-d the Son, nor a pre-existent Son (beyond the Name or plan of the Mashiach, which existed before creation), nor a G-d/Man, nor anything else besides a begotten, created, unique Man and Son of the living G-d, whose was named Yeshua. In fact no New Testament writer ever suggested that Yeshua was G-d, at any time. Rather, they teach that he is a unique Man, begotten (created) from G-d's most intimate contemplations of His plan for the world.
Naturally, as our course progresses, we'll continue to bring to light and correctly explain each of the verses which Trinitarians desperately tangle and mangle from the Torat HaShlichim and from the Tenach, in order to find support for their positions. As we advance, the light will shine, and everything now in the fog, will slowly become clear.
In the meantime, consider what Sha'ul says in 1 Cor 15:27-28, and ask yourself, "Is Sha'ul suggesting that Yeshua was G-d, or perhaps a G-d/Man? Or was he instead indicating that Yeshua was the Unique Man, the Messiah of Israel?"
...for "He (G-d) put everything in subjection under his (Mashiach's) feet." [quote from Ps 8:7]. But when it says that ìeverythingî has been subjected, obviously the word does not include G-d, who is himself the one subjecting everything to the Messiah. Now when everything has been subjected to the Son, then he (the Son) will subject himself to G-d, who subjected everything to him (the Son); so that G-d may be everything in everyone.
As we reflect on these words of Sha'ul above, and upon the message of Yochanan, in chapter 1 of his Gospel, which we have looked at in this lesson, we cannot help but ask ourselves, "Where does this idea that 'G-d comes down to earth to manifest Himself in Flesh, in order save the world,' come from?"
Yochanan, in his Gospel, certainly does NOT support this idea, as we have seen. So where in the Bible is this taught?
The Trinitarian is quick to flip to 1 Tim 3:16 in his KJV, and cries..."You see, it says it right here!"
And without controversy, great is the mystery of godliness: G-d was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.
"G-d was manifested in the flesh!" You see! The Word of G-d says it right there! Only a heretic would deny the clear Word of the L-RD to say that G-d did not come in the FLESH to save us!"
Of course, one would have to agree if one actually believed that the King James translation of the Bible was infallible. But, most rational people realize that this is not the case. So, what does 1 Tim 3:16 really say, in Greek?

Look carefully at the word in Greek for "godliness" or "piety," at the end of the first line. The word is "eusebeias." Now, notice the next word, on the second line; the word for mystery. This word is "musterion." If you know even basic words in Greek, you will know that the word for "G-d" is "Ho Theos," or literally "The G-d." "heos" appears NO WHERE in this text! But how can this be? The KJV translators insert the word for G-d, in English, right there in the text, remember?
"G-d was manifested in the flesh."
Nasty unscrupulous translators! Why do you suppose they did that? Well, it is because they had an agenda. They wanted Yeshua to be G-d in the flesh. And they wanted it so badly, that they were willing to play with our Bibles, and add to the Word of G-d, by adding the word "G-d," where it did not exist.

The NIV translators were not quite as nasty. They didn't add the word G-d, but instead, only inserted the word "He," like this...

Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great: He appeared in a body, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory.

At least with the NIV, one can "read into" the meaning of "He," and arrive at the conclusion that either G-d, or Yeshua is the subject being described. But guess what? Even the Greek word for "He," isn't in the text. In such a case, we would have expected to see the word "houtos," or "autah," depending upon how one would construct the sentence. But neither word appears!
The mental picture which Sha'ul is trying to get us to visualize in this passage, comes when we answer the question, "Why is godliness or piety so undeniably fantastic?"
The answer is because something that was once a mystery, unknown, not revealed, kept secret and held at bay since the world was created, has now appeared in a body, has been vindicated by the Spirit, seen by Angels, proclaimed by the Gentiles, believed in the world, and raised up in glory. He is talking about the Mashiach, the plan of G-d from the beginning! Mashiach has now appeared, is now known, is no longer a mystery, is not a secret, and is now loose on the world! Nowhere does the passage even hint that G-d appears in flesh! How ridiculous that is was even suggested!

http://www.torahofmessiah.com/enyjohn134.html

here's a snippet -

Tyndale's translation of John 1:3-4 reads,
John 1:3,4 - All things were made by it, and without it, was made nothing that was made. In it was life, and the life was the light of men.

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Originally posted by Lynn:
Drbar68,

Tyndale used "it" instead of "him."

Most Scholars consider Gen 1:26 where it says within: "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

Otherwise they see YHWH and Yahshua as a He or him, and not an it.

Within the name YHWH means: "He will be" not it will be.

Lynn

[This message has been edited by Lynn (edited 06-17-2003).]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Trooper:
Hello Josyau

Ps 74:2 Remember Your congregation, which You have purchased of old, The tribe of Your inheritance, which You have redeemed--This Mount Zion where You have dwelt.

Rev 13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the [b]Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Acts 20:28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Ruwach HaKodesh has made you overseers, to shepherd the assembly of Elohom which He purchased with His own blood.

What do you think?

Shalom

[/B]

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I would have to say that I don't believe these verses show anything but what the reader wants them to show. This is something I am concerned about, I have yet to see someone show me where the concept is taught or preached in Scriptures. I have yet to see someone show where context deals with the subject clearly. I have seen many verses use that seem to say one thing or another.

This to me is very dangerous as this is exactly the same trait that all erroneous doctrines take that I have had to reject after having first believed them. Acts 20:28 should not be held up as a proof text since again there is no clear concept being taught or proclaimed ever by Yhowshua or the emissaries.

Think about this the Jews thought of preexistence TOTALLY different than how we think of preexistence. The lamb slain before the foundations of the world does not mean he was literally slain obviously. There are other passages that are spoken of in a past tense though they are yet to be fulfilled. I noticed somebody used "give me the glory which I had before the world" that scripture does not prove literal preexistence. Both Shema web sites and the Doctrine of Trinity deals with that issue pretty well so I won't deal with it here. Read them if you truly want to see a different take on preexistence.

I have a question, the Jews expected a full blown non-preexistent human Mashiach. Now you can say "well they were wrong". Okay my question is why is there a lack of both controversy or teachings on the contrary? Surely such a new concept that would have revolutionized the Jews way of thinking (from a literal one=one Elohim and non-preexistent human Mashiach) would have been dealt with. Torah, Sabbath, End Times, Priesthood, Circumcision, Salvation, were all very well dealt with.

If you notice it is pre-tribulation rapture, Sunday worship, no-law, trinity, etc. that uses hint verses here and there and lack a full support of clear teachings by the mouths of Yhowshua or the emmisaries but they don't care if these things are not clearly taught. They don't care that most of the passages they use is based on a biased translation of the words written (that if they researched they would realize says something totally different). They don't care if there's an absence of the concept or a contradicting concept taught.

If the renewed covenant consisted of this new concept that Yhowshua was YHWH in the OT and preexistent but not equal to the Father then it would have been clearly taught. Why the absence beyond current use of verses here and there? I ask that you all please read "DOT" and the Shema web sites or any other for that matter to see a different perspective on what you all are considering proofs of your belief (mainly diety [though not equal] preexistence of Mashiach).

http://home.earthlink.net/~jcordaro7/yahweh_yahshua.html

http://home.earthlink.net/~jcordaro7/yahweh_yahshua.html

http://home.earthlink.net/~jcordaro7/Theo.html

http://www.torahofmessiah.com/shaliach.htm

http://www.torahofmessiah.com/necinference.html

http://www.torahofmessiah.com/preexistence.html

There are many more as well but I will not list all.

I will type up an excerpt from the "Doctrine of Trinity" book where he deals with preexistence later. I truly suggest all by that book! It can be found here:

365 pages
Paperback: ISBN 1-57309-309-2 $25.95

The book may be ordered from Atlanta Bible College at 1-800-347-4261 or 404-362-0052. Box 100,000, Morrow, GA 30260. E-mail info@abc-coggc.org

Like I said I will not be posted to many more responses to this. Why? I feel the Shema sites do a pretty good job with everything here that has been brought up as proof of Messiah's diety/preexistence. The book "Doctrine of Trinity" does a fantastic job in researching this issue. I could post my own take on the issue (that would vary in what angle I approach it or statements, attitude, or even Scriptures used) however the conclusion is the same so why should I make long post here when a person could go to those web sites that have been posted or buy the book?

I again will be examining the Scriptures raised here, I hope others would be willing enough to listen to the other perspective presented in the web sites and book. I believe they deal extensively with the ideas, concepts, and scriptures posted in this thread.

May we all continue to learn as this will be a life long journey of continously learning and reexamining things we held (are maybe even things we now hold) as truth. I know that I want to be in a position to always be willing to reexamine something that I may have already studies or believe I arrived at the truth with.

His spirit be with us to teach us,

Greetings.

Created in His own image, because there was only One Image,original is the Father. Father created In Own image the Son. The Son created man/woman in His own image through the power of Yahweh. One Pattern of creating, according to its kind, elohimkind, mankind, animalkind.

Greetings.

I wonder why you spelled the Saviour's name YHOSHUA. How do you read this of course with vowels? Yahshua, or Yahushua? Yah Hoshua, Yah Ho Shua.

I read on this eliyah webpage, "Comments about Trinity" try to download the homepage on this certain topic, it is good writings. But I am still on process of making the article more in plain truth as far as the figure and parts of speech is concerned.

The "he" that was used for the Holy spirit, is a third person singular masculine gender, which should be "IT" in some other Translation. Holy spirit is a common abstract noun, the same with some attributes of the Heavenly Father and the Son. KJV has a poor rendition of the Holy spirit as the third person, it must be third pronoun that replaces the common abstract noun.

The titles of Yahshua in the old testament are all in common nouns, adjectives that modifies His being, some adverbs that modifies of His descriptive being.
Example is His Being and angel. His being the king of Salem. His being the one who is like Elohim ( michael),.

thanks for you sharing.

Sincerely,

This topic had been discussed before but it is worth reading them over and over again.

I will ask this quesiton again:

What were you before you were conceived in your mother's womb?

Genisis attests to the fact that after the creation Yahweh said "...it is perfect..." (my words). How can you add to perfection? So if you are here now you must have been here then. But what were you? In what form were you before your conception?

I don't know all the scriptures which 'may' answer that mystery but I do know this: Yahushua the Messiah was/is the word of Yahweh! The actual WORD first formulated in HIS mind and then uttered from HIS mouth. This is the way He describes Yahushua to us so that we can understand.

In this way, like I said earlier, Yahushua was not created but existed with the Father from the beginning. Just like it says in scripture: "..the same was in the beginning with YAH..."

He you would think about it various agents of Elohim were 100% Man though they did things that your everyday man can't do. This is because they did not do it of themselves but Elohim moved through them. That applies to Mashiach. Concerning forgiving sins again I suggest you read the other perspective presented. This is my last post on this subject. I will observe whatever future post may be added.

Concerning Mashiach's name I used both Yahshua and Yhowshua. I know that people have their take on the spelling and all: Yahshua, Yehshua, Yhowshua, etc. etc. I will study this out a little more. But for now I use both.