It was asked of me “what if, when it comes time to stand before YHVH you find out that Yeshua is G-d”. You see I have a problem with a G-d in the “flesh” and a G-d who is “Spirit”, because, this makes TWO G-ds. One that could be touched and one who could not. I see TWO thrones, not a double decker. And if He is THREE were is the other throne? ELOAH has COMMANDED me to “Have no other Elohym before HIM”. “(Shema Yisrael Adonai Elohanu Adonai Echad)." ....

For fourteen years I have studied the scriptures to see if “these things be true”, and I have studies the scriptures to see if “THEY” be true! Below are just some samples of what is wrong with what has been presented as scripture, but in fact were not in the Original translations, or, are deliberate insertions to propagate a theological dogma. I suppose that there may be someone that will say “you cannot add to, or take away from scripture”. Let me tell you , I haven’t, someone else did. Any scripture you can use to justify a three in one, I can repudiate. Anyway, look at just these three New Testament scriptures.

Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and , lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world [AGE]. Amen.

Something missing? This was inserted..............”baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” : [Not in original]

AND.....
1John5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, [even] Yeshua HaMaschiach; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness , because the Spirit is truth. 7 ............................ 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Something missing? Again, this verse seven, was inserted..........”For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one”. The passage is not authentic! These words only appear in five later manuscripts and are not found in any of the earlier new testament texts.

There is no other scripture so clear as to fortify the FACT that Yeshua is G-d in the flesh, as this................

1Tim3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh , justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

If this is what is written, I have no other option except to believe that Yeshua is G-d.

But I have another option. This is the ORIGINAL........”And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: He was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory”.

Some manuscripts have “Who” was manifest in the flesh”....... Who was? “The mystery of godliness appeared in the flesh” Yeshua was godliness,..... not G-d.

You see I have a leg to stand on when I stand before HaShem. I can say “You are my G-d and there is no other”.......... For thou [art] great, and doest wondrous things: thou [art] God alone. Psa 86:10

I can stand justified by presenting in my defense, the PLAIN scripture, and not scriptures that are questionable. Least of all, a mystery of how three can be one. Yeshua is my savior, my redeemer, my King, and my High Priest, but, ELOAH is my EL. And I will have no EL before Him, above Him, or with Him. You can call me a Heretic if you like, but I am a guardian of my soul, and rely on the Spirit to teach me. I do not accept the doctrines of men. This is not something that I think is right. It is not my opinion. It is the truth, and that is what makes it so wonderful............... If I am right, who is in peril ? “They exchange the truth for a lie, and worship the Creation rather then the Creator”.

There is one more from the New Testament that I will give you. Some may already be aware of it..........

Rom 10: 4 For Messiah [is] the end [#5056] of the law For righteousness to every one that believeth.

Again ....to propagate a theological dogma....... “the END of the LAW”.

Greek ..Telos #5056“to set for a definite point or goal”

Rom 10: 4 For Messiah [is] the GOAL [#5056] of the TORAH For righteousness to every one that believeth.

Messiah, Yeshua, is the way Eloah has provided for the righteousness of men, as he declares it in the Torah..

I could go on with examples of scriptural manipulations, but this is not my purpose. My purpose is to get you to question what you present as truth from the New Testament. If you are sincere about Eloah you owe it to yourself to find out what is TRUTH. A place to start would be found in these books.

The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture by Bart D. Ehrman
One God & One Lord by Graeser, Lynn, & Schoenheit
The Doctrine of the Trinity: Christianity's Self-Inflicted Wound by Anthony Buzzard
& Charles Hunting
The faith of Christianity stands or falls principally on the doctrine of the Trinity, a fact which the Catholic Church itself repeatedly admits in its official Catechism. There is, of course, no doctrine of the Trinity to be found in the Bible. What may surprise some Christians is that in most of the writings of the earliest fathers of the Christian church the doctrine of a Trinity is not merely missing; it is plainly contradicted. If you are not aware of this your studies are incomplete.
Many Trinitarians have accepted that the Trinity is not a Bible doctrine:
the Apostolic church did not teach it; nor did their immediate successors, the 'Apostolic Fathers':
the doctrine of the Trinity is really a product of the 4th century, and was formulated only after considerable opposition at a series of sometimes unrepresentative and poorly run church councils, and established as official church policy by edict of the Roman Emperor:
and that most of the biblical passages commonly used to support the doctrine of the Trinity only appear to do so if they are read with the Trinity already in mind. Taking the passages in their context, and with regard to the intentions of the writers and the understanding of the original readers, no such meaning was intended?

Tertullian.;160-200 C.E. approx...is the first I can find that presented any thing close.
His Trinitarian teaching is inconsistent, being an amalgamation of the Roman doctrine with that of St. Justin Martyr. Tertullian’ formula for the Holy Trinity, tres Personae, una Substantia. The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are numerically distinct, and each is God; they are of one substance, one state, and one power. [So far the doctrine is accurately Nicene]. But by the side of this appears the Greek view which was one day to develop into Arianism: that the unity is to be sought not in the Essence but in the origin of the Persons. He says that “from all eternity there was reason (ratio) in God, and in reason the Word (Sermo), not distinct from God, but in vulva cordis. For the purpose of creation the Word received a perfect birth as Son. There was a time when there was no Son and no sin, when God was neither Father nor Judge”. In his Christology Tertullian has had no Greek influence, and is purely Roman. Like most Latin Fathers he speaks not of two Natures but of two Substances in one Person, united without confusion, and distinct in their operations. If you believe this, then this is the “root” of your faith. The saints knew nothing of the doctrine of the Trinity: it was rather a capitulation of the biblical revelation to a foreign system from which Christianity has not yet escaped.
I will ask one question then leave you alone. If Yeshua was G-d would not James and Jude have known, or at least said something about his divinity? After all they were the brothers or half brothers, of G-d. I know I would have said something like “Hey, my brother was G-d”!

Jude 1:1 Jude, the servant of Yeshua HaMashiach, and brother of James,
Jame 1:1 James , a servant of G-d and of Adoni Yeshua HaMashiach, 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God ;
Matt 13:55...[the brothers]

Don’t go away, I’m not finished.

Now to THE NAME.....YHVH

I have seen on this site every variation that could be thought of, and NONE do it with any reverence! Do you not know that His name is HOLY,[Psa 103:1] and “ let all flesh bless his Holy Name for ever and ever”. Islam has more reverence for the name of Mohamad than some do for Eloah. It is good to want to know the name of our EL, it is even better to be in awe of it. All variations are speculations. There is only one clear, and I believe one that we could use, and that is YAH, [Blessed be His Name], [but with utmost respect]........... “Sing unto EL, sing praises to his name: extol him that rideth upon the heavens by his name YAH , and rejoice before him”.Psa 68:4. Seriously think on what I am saying please........”Teach me thy way, O ELOAH; I will walk in thy truth: unite my heart to fear thy name. I will praise thee, O Eloah my EL, with all my heart: and I will glorify thy name for evermore”.

Because the false teacher is profane, he cannot discern the difference between what is truly of EL, and what is not. He holds both the revealed truth and his own thoughts in equal esteem. The distinguishing mark of a true man of EL is not merely that he speaks truth to the church, but that he speaks only the truth to the church.

To me a Messianic Yeshua HaMashiach, that Is GOD, is no different than a Christian Jesus Christ.

Josyau: I agree with you AHAVAH that there has been insertions made into Scripture during the time that the Trinitarian position was wanting to stomp out those who denied Yahshua's preexistence or being G-d. The ones you brought up are indeed true and shows a troubled position trying to win against the true original postion.

Josyau: I agree with your presentation on 1 Timothy.
I would say that 1 John 4:2
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:and every spirit that confesseth not Jesus is not of God: and this is the spirit of the antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it cometh; and now it is in the world already.

Who was John speaking against? There had to be some position he was targeting when he made this statement. It could not be against Jews for they knew full well Yahshua came in the flesh. They rejected his claim of being the Meshiach. However any Trinity, Bi-Enity, or anything else that makes Yahshua G-d would be indeed denying he came in flesh. That word sarx is flesh, human being, human nature. It is impossible for G-d to dwell within the confines of something that is 100% Human.


There is one more from the New Testament that I will give you. Some may already be aware of it..........

Rom 10: 4 For Messiah [is] the end [#5056] of the law For righteousness to every one that believeth.

Again ....to propagate a theological dogma....... “the END of the LAW”.

Greek ..Telos #5056“to set for a definite point or goal”

Rom 10: 4 For Messiah [is] the GOAL [#5056] of the TORAH For righteousness to every one that believeth.

Josyau: This is also done with scriptures stating that creation was made "through" or "by" Yahshua when the words "dia" and "en" could have been translated into all kinds of various words in those questionable verses. It comes together when we see it being said that YHWH alone created the universe and in Revelation where it is He not Yahshua spoken of as creating anything. Yahshua himself never states nothing about creating anything either.

The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture by Bart D. Ehrman
One God & One Lord by Graeser, Lynn, & Schoenheit
The Doctrine of the Trinity: Christianity's Self-Inflicted Wound by Anthony Buzzard
& Charles Hunting

Josyau: Both books are very good!

To me a Messianic Yeshua HaMashiach, that Is GOD, is no different than a Christian Jesus Christ.

Josyau: That's how I feel, saying Yahshua is YHWH or G-d but in some different fashion is no different than what Xtians do. People may not call it Trinity but it's still calling the Mashiach G-d which the Jews rightly reject. No Scriptures in the Tanach points to the Mashiach being G-d but human from the seed of David.

Here's one I will put out here for people to ponder.
2 Thess. 2:3-4
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of LAWLESSNESS be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called G-d, or that is worshipped; so that HE AS G-D sitteth in the temple of G-d, shewing HIMSELF THAT HE IS G-D.

In Xtianity Jesus commits both of these crimes. Jesus says, you don't need to follow Torah today for I have done away with it. He also claims to be G-d the second person of a G-dhead. He usually steals the majority of worship and focus in churches today. He is definetly thought about, spoken about, prayed about, worshipped, and exalted more than the Father. Saying Yahshua is YHWH does not diminish the Mashiach of violating Crime #2 which would go against Crime #1 anyway.

quote:

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Originally posted by ana_yncaphil:
Yahweh the Father gave His Name to His Son in old Testament as Yahweh the Son, in the New Testament as Yah the Saviour.
.]

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Here's another example of something that has nothing to do with Scriptures. This concept is nowhere found in the Scriptures but is found in people's logic and ideas. The Apostles sure never concluded such a concept by putting a bunch of Scriptures (that of themselves do not prove the idea that is trying to be stated) and come out with that which is stated above.

Concerning the whole Mount Horeb event: The Scriptures themselves already make it clear that they did not see anything. So just because no one can see G-d does not mean in this particular event that they saw Yahshua. It is already made clear that no one saw any form or figure.

Concerning YHWH's voice who says that it was Yahshua speaking for him? I don't find this nowhere in the Scriptures I read. I do read it saying that in these last days He has spoken through his son.

quote:

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Originally posted by ana_yncaphil:
Yahweh the Father gave His Name to His Son in old Testament as Yahweh the Son, in the New Testament as Yah the Saviour.
.]

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Here's another example of something that has nothing to do with Scriptures. This concept is nowhere found in the Scriptures but is found in people's logic and ideas. The Apostles sure never concluded such a concept by putting a bunch of Scriptures (that of themselves do not prove the idea that is trying to be stated) and come out with that which is stated above.

Concerning the whole Mount Horeb event: The Scriptures themselves already make it clear that they did not see anything. So just because no one can see G-d does not mean in this particular event that they saw Yahshua. It is already made clear that no one saw any form or figure.

Concerning YHWH's voice who says that it was Yahshua speaking for him? I don't find this nowhere in the Scriptures I read. I do read it saying that in these last days He has spoken through his son.

Sorry for the double, I did not know I could not delete my own post.

------------------
J.R Allen
www.shmabelievers.org

quote:

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Originally posted by josyau:
Here's another example of something that has nothing to do with Scriptures. This concept is nowhere found in the Scriptures but is found in people's logic and ideas. The Apostles sure never concluded such a concept by putting a bunch of Scriptures (that of themselves do not prove the idea that is trying to be stated) and come out with that which is stated above.

Concerning the whole Mount Horeb event: The Scriptures themselves already make it clear that they did not see anything. So just because no one can see G-d does not mean in this particular event that they saw Yahshua. It is already made clear that no one saw any form or figure.

Concerning YHWH's voice who says that it was Yahshua speaking for him? I don't find this nowhere in the Scriptures I read. I do read it saying that in these last days He has spoken through his son.

Sorry for the double, I did not know I could not delete my own post.

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AHAVAH, I have been studying the Scriptures for over twenty-five years myself, and I have been on the positive, and the negative side of so many doctrines, that I've amazed myself, for on many occasions, I felt I was surely right about this and that, only a little while longer to change my mind, because Yahweh is always bringing forth newer ways of looking upon Scripture that I have thought I'd plumbed the depths of. So long as we are prayerfully desiring the truth, and we are in obedience to that truth that we have found, Yahweh will continue to bring forth light! This "New Light," is also called "Present Truth," because it is only at present, that we recognize it to be true!

When you look at the fact of the word "one," in the Schema, that does not need to represent "number," as in the number of Persons there are in the G-dhead!

That word, one, is representative of a oneness among Equals, but because you've been studying about these things, you already know this. Over the last few days here at this forum, I have noted to a woman who I don't believe knew this, that a curse was noted in the Mishnah, against anyone who would study the Daniel 9: 24-27 prophecy, so millions haven't studied it over the centuries.

This prophecy, coming from the Hebrew Scriptures [if you will], tells us, and tells them, that in 27 A.D., a thirty year old man was baptized, becoming "The Annointed One" of Yahweh. That man's Name was Yeshua. Now, this is so incredible that Satan was working against the Jews from inside their own faith, but we are all able to see that, just in reading what happened to Yeshua in the works of John and the three biographers. We haven't the slightest idea Who Yahweh is, other than that He is sitting on a Throne, and He supposedly doesn't have a body! Some time ago, He created everything, but before He did that, He always was! So what was He up to, during the time between when He was, and He began to create?

Sometimes, I get a piece of 8 and 1/2 by 11, and I put two small circles side by side on the paper, and when the person with whom I am speaking, asks, what that is, I tell him it's two, two dimensional people on a piece of paper, walking down the street, although you've got to imagine that it's a street there, because two dimensional creatures, only have height and width, with no depth. So then, I make a straight line between the two people on the paper, and tell the one I'm speaking with, that that's a fence, and now, neither of those former friends can ever see one another again, because that fence is obscuring their vision of one another, and the guy look strangely at me!

I can hear those two down there, wondering why the other is totally out of sight! But . . . no, they aren't saying that really, because, they don't know what being out of sight is, because neither of them has any depth!

Now, when I wrote, "Neither of them has any depth!" did I mean, they had no reasoning powers, in and of themselves to come to such a conclusion, or did I mean that they're too thin to have any depth? Now, if you want to talk this puzzle over with me, you're probably too thick!

One of the craziest things any two of us who are in this three/four dimensional world [depending on whether you want to use time as a dimension or not], can do, is sit down and begin comparing our knowledge of Yahweh, the Creator and Sustainer of this Universe, because, in comparison with those two little circular creatures on that piece of paper, we are infinitely more unable to understand Yahweh, than those creatures are unable to understand me, their creator! Yahweh has an infinite number of dimensions, because He is infinite in all that He is and does! We're only one dimension up from the paper creatures!

So, please don't get yourself down on paper, telling me, or anybody else, how long you've been studying the Scriptures, because when you think you've got some really good understandings, all you have to do, is wait a few minutes, and you'll come to the greater understanding, that you only thought you'd had some really good understandings. Anybody remember these words?

You know, I have heard many attempts to explain the relationship between the Father and the Son. Some say that maybe the best way to simulate it is identical twins. Some say more like siamese twins. Some say there is no relationship because they are the same person. Some say that it is impossible to understand because it is a 'mystery'. Well, get real. When the Bible dictates 'Father and Son', why do people have to say 'identical twins'? When the Bible says '...gave his only begotten son', why do people say 'self-existent'? When the Bible says 'unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven', why do people say that the relationship is a mystery and cannot be understood?

Roman Catholic officials are at least honest in admitting that the Trinity doctrine was not founded on the Scriptures, as declared: "Our opponents (Protestants) sometimes claim that no belief should be held dogmatically which is not explicitly stated in Scripture....... But the Protestant churches have themselves accepted such dogmas as the Trinity for which there is no such precise authority in the Gospels...." - Life Magazine, October 30, 1950.

1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Yahshua Messiah, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Well, BarYah, I don't see any third person in the above verse. I understand that you may be thinking of verses like 1 John 5:7, but any scholar will tell you that 1 John 5:7 is not in the original manuscript. But I think that you know that already.
Please understand, I do not deny the divinity of Yahshua. The Father put all things under his feet and set him at His right hand. Your thought that 'Yahshua is Yahweh in the flesh' is not really possible any more than one could say of my that I am my father in the flesh. While the thought has a grain of truth in it in that I am begotten of my father, it is not true that my father and I are the same person. The Bible says that they are one 'in Spirit'. And I can say the same of my father and myself. Although we are earthly and not divine we partake of the same spirit and are not divided. (spiritually now, not physically) I pray that we may all have that relationship and partake of the spirit that the Son imparts to us.

Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Galatians 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Please note how Yahshua addresses his Father in his prayer in Gethsemane.

John 17
1 ¶ These words spake Yahshua, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Yahshua Messiah, whom thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6 ¶ I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 ¶ And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 ¶ Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 ¶ Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 ¶ Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

"The Theophanies." A Theophany is an appearance of G-d to a human being or group of human beings. It is a divine manifestation, if you will, and of course we find a number of them recorded for us through-out the pages of Scripture. When we come across such occurrences in the Biblical narrative, the question we must ask ourselves, and the temptation that presents itself is, "Are these appearances of G-d "Yeshua" in his "pre-incarnate" form?

Are the Theophanies in the Tanakh actually pre-Incarnate appearances of a "divine Yeshua?"

In discussions about the deity of Yeshua, the question quickly arises of the theophanies in the Tanakh. There are a number of instances where G-d appears to people in the form of a human being, or of an angel. This being is either called by the L-RD's name or some other divine title, or allows people to worship him, or speaks in the first person in the name of G-d, as though G-d himself were the one speaking. So it is tempting to jump to the conclusion that this being is one and the same heavenly "Son of Man", "G-d in the flesh", eternal "G-d/man" who later makes his definitive appearance as Yeshua the Messiah in what we call "the Incarnation".
It is tempting, this jump, but it is erroneous, as can be shown upon a more careful examination of the phenomenon of theophanies, and upon a more careful reading of the relevant scriptural texts. Let's begin by listing the main examples of theophanies in the Tenakh, and then we will examine them, comparing and contrasting the experiences with the incarnation of Yeshua.
1. Avraham pays tithes to Melchi-tzedek (Gen 14)
2. Avraham entertains the 3 "men" (Gen 18)
3. The Angel of the L-RD stops Avraham from sacrificing Yitzchak (Gen 22)
4. Ya'acov wrestles with a man/angel (Gen 32)
5. Moshe meets the L-RD at the burning bush (Exodus 3-4)
6. Moshe sees G-d's "glory" on Mt. Sinai (Exodus 33)
7. Yehoshua meets the "Captain of the L-rd's Armies (Yehoshua 5)
8. Gid'on meets an impish Y-H-W-H under an oak tree (Judges 6)
9. The Angel of the L-RD announces the birth of Shimshon to his parents (Judges 13)
We will look briefly at each of these events, then analyze them all together.

II. Nine examples of Theophanies in the Tenakh

1. Melchi-tzedek is actually not a theophany per se. If we only knew what we know from Genesis 14, all we see is a local king, the King of Salem ("City of Peace", presumably Jerusalem, but then Jerusalem was not yet called Jerusalem until it was later conquered by David and made his capital). His name means "King of Righteousness", and he is the priest of the Most High G-d (El Elyon). Avraham also knows G-d as El Elyon and El Shaddai (Almighty G-d). But then our friend Mel could simply have been the local priest of the highest "El" (god) in the Canaanite pantheon. There is no hint that Melchi-tzedek might be divine until later in the Psalms (110) and in the NT (Heb 7). At this time, all we see is a local priest/king making the wise move of bringing refreshment and extending friendly greetings to a nomadic warrior who is returning from an impressive victory in battle. And Abe's tithe could be nothing more than paying tribute as a courtesy to the king of the region he is passing through or temporarily settling in. Genesis 14 shows us a meeting between 2 statesmen. Whatever we learn later about Melchi-tzedek may have historical or midrashic value in somehow prefiguring Yeshua, but we cannot say from this or any other passage in scripture that Melchi-tzedek IS Yeshua.

2. In Genesis 18 we are told much more clearly that Y-H-W-H appeared to Avraham at his tent. As the story unfolds, we meet 3 "men" whom Avraham takes in and offers them hospitality. One of these "men" turns out to be called Y-H-W-H, and the other two are called "angels" when they go on to Sodom. Now before we get too excited, let's remember that we know very little about angels at this point, and we do know that men can also be called by the same Hebrew word (mal'akh), which means messenger, worker, servant (the Prophet "Malachi" being one example). So we're not necessarily dealing with glowing white figures whose wings are tucked carefully under their robes. Nor is Abe having lunch with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Let's be careful what conclusions we jump to just because of some apparent concurrence of details.
Now we're still left with the question, "who is this man/angel called Y-H-W-H?" We are also left with the bizarre fact that Avraham shows no awareness that he may be talking face to face with G-d Himself, in the flesh, so to speak. Throughout the entire scene of the announcement of Yitzchak's birth, and the cards-on-the-table bargaining session over the fate of Sodom and Lot, Avraham is talking to this man as he would to any other. Likewise, the man/angel/whatever does not do anything especially divine -- no miracles or signs, no flashes of smoke or fire, no fancy entrance or exit. This is about the most tame of all the theophanies in the Tanakh! The text may call him Y-H-W-H, but he does not mention this name to Avraham, nor does Abraham call him by this name. We really have no reason to see this fellow as anything other than a representative -- angelic or human -- of the L-RD who came to deliver a message. And we have even less reason to think that this could have been Yeshua.

3. In Genesis 22 we are introduced to the figure called the "Angel of the L-RD". This is the figure who stopped Avraham as he was about to sacrifice his son Yitzchak in the Land of Moriah. Here he is clearly a heavenly being and not a human. He speaks in the name of Y-H-W-H. BUT, a) he is not human and does not look human... he is an angel of some sort; and b) he speaks both times from heaven, and never actually appears on the earth. Once again, if we have no preconceived agenda, there is no reason to think that this could have been Yeshua. Yeshua is NOT an angel. Scripture is quite clear that he is a man.

4. Ya'aov's experience in Genesis 32 has him wrestling all night long with a "man" on the night before he is to meet his brother Esav. As usual, there are more questions than answers. The man has to go when the sun comes up, but we don't know why. Ya'acov refuses to let him go until he blesses him. Why does Ya'acov want a blessing from him? It doesn't say. So the man cheats, and shorts out Ya'acov's sciatic nerve. Then he gives him a blessing anyway, changing his name to Israel, because "you have wrestled with G-d and with man, and have prevailed". Ya'acov asks the man what his name is, and he won't say. The man leaves, and Ya'acov names the place Penu'el (the face of G-d), because he has seen G-d face to face and survived.
Here we have the first hint that seeing G-d face to face can be fatal. Yet Ya'acov shows no fear during the match. In fact, he is quite bold. So all we know is that he was either wrestling with a man, or with some angelic being that he was able to defeat. I doubt he would have been able to defeat G-d, despite the blessing he received! But we have already seen G-d "appear" in the person of human or angelic messengers who were authorized to speak and act on His behalf. There is no reason to see this person as Yeshua either. If he was an angel, then he wasn't Yeshua. And if he was a man, well, we would have to imagine that Yeshua got impatient and wanted to play games with his creation before his turn was to come some 1700 years hence. Did he have nothing better to do than to come have a wrestling match with Ya'acov?

5. At the burning bush (Exodus 3-4) we have some new features that we have not yet seen in the biblical theophanies. First, it is clearly the L-RD (Y-H-W-H) who is speaking to Moshe. No mention of an angel or any other figure other than the bush itself, is made. But it is not the bush that is speaking. Second, Moshe's reaction is to try to hide, because he was afraid to see G-d. So here we see what was hinted at in Ya'acov's case, and what later becomes standard in theophanies. Then, Moshe is told to take off his sandals, because the ground is holy. We hardly know what holy ground is yet, but we can surmise that it is holy because of G-d's presence. A complete conversation ensues, and G-d commissioning Moshe to lead Israel out of Egypt, giving him signs to perform to validate his mission, and answering Moshe's objections. Then Moshe goes on his way, and presumably, so does G-d.
This is the first bona fide appearance of G-d Himself on the scene, not through an intermediary man or angel. The one in the bush is not called the Angel of the L-RD, but always G-d or Y-H-W-H. With the higher stakes, it is not surprising to see Moshe's fear and attempt to hide, and we are also not surprised to find the holy ground. But once again, we DO NOT see any sign of Yeshua or any incarnation of G-d.

6. Back on Mount Sinai (Exodus 33:17 - 34: 9), after the Golden Calf incident, Moshe has returned to plead for the people. Wanting his own assurance that G-d would be with him if he continues to lead the people to the promised Land, Moshe asks G-d to "show me your glory". We have already been told that G-d is speaking to Moshe face to face, not like he has spoken to anyone else. Yet throughout the Sinai event G-d emphasizes over and over again that the Israelites never saw any kind of form or image associated with G-d when He appeared to them. Now he tells Moshe to hide in a crack between the rocks, and when G-d passes by him, he will cover the crack so Moses cannot see His face, but as He passes by He will remove His hand so Moshe can see His back. When this happened, Moshe was quick to bow down and worship at the sight, but the text gives us no clue as to what he saw. There is no hint that he saw any human form, despite the reference to G-d's "hand." He may have seen nothing but an intensely bright light. Was that Yeshua? Yet again, no reason to believe so unless we have a preconceived agenda to find him lurking behind every rock in the Tenakh.

7. Just before Yehoshua/Yoshua attacks Yericho, he meets a strange character standing opposite him with his sword drawn (Yehoshua 5:13ff). Yehoshua asks, "Are you with us or with our enemies?" And the "man" (this time it is a human form) says he is Captain of the Y-H-W-H's armies. Yehoshua bows down to the ground and immediately submits to him without question. Maybe he recognized the voice or something about the experience from being around Moshe when it happened to him. The text doesn't say why; it just says what he did. The "man" then tells him to take off his sandals because he is on holy ground. Yehoshua does so, and the story ends as abruptly as it began.
Now we have some similarities to Moshe's experience, and some differences. The figure appears in human form and is not called by G-d's name or title. Yet he says the ground is holy, suggesting that G-d is somehow present. Yehoshua is not afraid, but he is sufficiently awed to bow down prostrate on the ground and ask for orders from the man. An awesome experience, but was it Yeshua? Yet again there is no reason in the text to suggest this. We would have to leap with no evidence to identify every supernatural phenomenon with Yeshua somehow, just because we want to find him in the Tenakh. But that is very poor scholarship.

8. Gid'on has an encounter with the Angel of Y-H-W-H that is perhaps the most bizarre theophany in all of scripture, and maybe in the entire genre of religious experience (Judges 6:11-24). The Angel sits and waits for him under an oak tree. He sort of sneaks up on Gid'on and greets him, and tells him to go defeat the Midianites. From verse 14 the Angel is called only Y-H-W-H, and is not referred to as an angel again until the end of the story. He proceeds to discuss Israel's plight with Gid'on and to convince him to go out and fight. Gid'on begs him to wait and receive a gift -- not a sacrifice, but rather a nice meal of roast goat, bread and soup. "The L-RD" instructs him to put the meat and bread on a nearby rock and pour the soup over it. Then "the L-RD" reaches out with his walking stick and touches the mixture, incinerating it instantly with fire that came out of the rock. Before Gid'on's astonished eyes, the Angel then disappears, and Gid'on understands that he has indeed seen the Angel of the L-RD. The L-RD continues to speak to him (from who knows where!), to assure him that he will not die.
In this case, the "Angel" is far more playful than in previous cases. The ground is not holy. Gid'on is not afraid until the end when he realizes who he was talking to. So we have here yet one more example of the strange things that can happen when G-d decides to make contact with His creation. But was it Yeshua? If we take "angel" literally, then, no, because Yeshua is not an angel. If it means "messenger", then it could have been. But again, there is nothing in the text to suggest this, nor is this incident identified with Yeshua anywhere else in the scripture.

9. The last example we will examine is that of Shimshon's (Samson's) parents' encounter with the "Angel of Y-H-W-H", called interchangeably throughout the story the "man of G-d" (Judges 13). This time the angel does not look like a man. Rather, Shimshon's mother gives her graphic description of how his appearance was "very fearsome", like an angel of G-d (v. 6). Another oddity is that the primary appearances are to the mother, and not the father of Shimshon. The second time, she has to run and get her husband and bring him to the angel. Manoach, not realizing who he is, wants to present him with an offering, and the angel says he will not accept it, but he should offer it to the L-RD (v. 16). Manoach asks his name, and the angel gives him some double-talk that either means his name is too wonderful for them to comprehend or know, or that his name is "Pele", which means "wonderful" (as in Isaiah 9:6). So Manoach brings a goat and a meal offering and makes his sacrifice on a rock, and as the sacrifice is consumed by the fire, the angel jumps into the flames and ascends to heaven with the fire of the offering. Manoach now understands this was the angel of the L-RD, and assumes they will die after having seen him. It is his wife who reasons that, if the L-RD wanted to kill them, He would not have given all the instructions about the birth of their son Shimshon.
This example is similar in some way's to Gid'on's. The angel is once again a little playful with them, especially when he goes up in smoke with the offering. He is clearly an angel, yet he is also called a man, and Manoach sees him as a man (despite his wife's earlier description!) until the smoke trick. No holy ground, once again, and no fear until Manoach realizes who the "man" was. So, was it Yeshua? I see no reason in the text to think so.

In the Shema web sites they deal with theophanies as well. Your post is exactly what they come to. Your post presents what people need to do and stop doing. People (including myself as I continue to learn) need to study and reexamine these issues without bias and without insertions of manmande concepts, ideas, doctrines, etc. that are not found in scriptures themselves.

We also need to stop putting insertions of wonderful ideas, conclusions, biased, concepts into Scriptures. I will probaly do an article about how erroneous doctrines usually carry on the same traits. They usually are not a theme in Scriptures and that in itself is troubling when we are dealing with issues that are believed today that then would have been a revolution in thought but they are never dealt with.

They usually only have verses here and verses there that support it's claim though much human insertion is needed to prove the point. They usually put plain Scriptures in contradiction to one another or to the doctrine being claimed. These plain scriptures are usually thrown out as non-issue. They are usually under the clause of being complexed or hard to be understood though these suppose mysteries are never spoken about.

The worst thing that is done is to claim that the doctrine is a mystery so we will never understand and that's why it is true regardless of our not being able to see it plainly in Scriptures. This is especially true if the emissaries themselves don't teach nothing about a certain truth being a mystery. If we allowed this to be a reason to accept a doctrine then many doctrines would be acceptable that are not clearly taught in Scriptures.

Isa 45:18 For thus says Yahuah, Who created the heavens, Who is Elohim, Who formed the earth and made it, Who has established it, Who did not create it in vain, Who formed it to be inhabited: "I am Yahuah, and there is no other.

Isa 45:21-23 Tell and bring forth your case; Yes, let them take counsel together. Who has declared this from ancient time? Who has told it from that time? Have not I, Yahuah? And there is no other Elohim besides Me, A just Elohim and a Savior; There is none besides Me. "Look to Me, and be saved, All you ends of the earth! For I am Elohim, and there is no other. I have sworn by Myself; The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness,And shall not return,That to Me every knee shall bow, Every tongue shall take an oath.

Phil 2:10-11 that at the name of Yahshuah every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Yahshuah HaMashiach is Master, to the glory of Elohim the Father.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Elohim, and the Word was Elohim.

John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.

John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

1 Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of righteousess: Elohim was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.

John 14:7-9 Philip said to Him, "Master, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us." 9 Yahshuah said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

Yahushua/Yeshua/Yahshua is the WORD of the almighty YAH! I really think its as simple as that but we try to complicate it.

Consider this everyone - what were you before you were created? A thought, an idea, a purpose a prophesy? What were you? I'm not claiming that I know but I do know this in some way or the other Yahushua was the WORD of YAH before He was incarnate. Yes the actual spoken WORD.

This way He remains YAH and does not replace YAH but is YAH and was not created by Yah but was with Yah from the beginning - HIS WORD! And Yahweh is one!

I thought I would never come to an understanding of the relationship between Yahweh and Yahushua but its all right there in John chapter 1:

"In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with Yah and the Word was Yah" - the word was the same person as Yah.

"...the same was in the beginning with Yah" - the word was there in the beginning so He was not created.

"...all things were made by Him and without Him was not anything made" (NOT ANYTHING, INCLUDING HIMSELF) - the word was not created.

Yahweh is comprised of His mind and His word (for the sake of this argument). But: "...and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us..." Whilst His mind remained in heaven (if you will).

Now I understand how Yahushua could be Yah and still say "...the Father is greater than I..." Beacuse Yahushua represented the Word of Yah spoken to that date and the father represented the mind of Yah. So Yahushua represents the Word of Yah as we know it in the Old Testament. But the mind of Yah was in 'perpetual thought' and knowledgeable of Yahs every intent. So this is why Yahushua would say the Father knows. Yahshua knew what the Father said in the past but the Father knew what was to be said while Yahushua was here with us.

This also explains why Yahushua had to pray constantly. He did this to be constantly updated as to the mind's (the fathers) intent.

The Fatehr gave us His word but we could not live by it. This is why Yahushua had to come because only He could fulfill Himself!

Before I understood this this way I couldn't accept the oneness theorey but I knew the trinity doctrine was heresey so how could it be? Well its like this: "...and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us..."

HalleluYAH!

The storey of man's relationship with Yah goes like this:

When man walked in harmony with Yah all was bliss and JOY. Then man rejected Yah and became sinfull and was deserted to live in DESPAIR.

Yah being loving, forgiving, merciful, faithful and just saw a way to reunite Himself with man. He created a bridge between JOY and DESPAIR. That bridge was His word the 'scriptures'.

But this was not enough for man. Man could read and understand the word but still couldn't cross the bridge to JOY.

So Yah sent Yahshua who was His word made Flesh: the Son of Yah and the Son of Man. To show man how to cross the bridge from DESPAIR to be redeemed to JOY.

Yahshua showed man how to cross the bridge. And now man can cross the bridge from DESPAIR to JOY by repeating Yahushua's steps. In the name of Yahushua man can be reunited with Yah and experience HIs bliss and JOY again.

To the christians: we still have to cross the bridge. Yah did not break it down. He simply sent Yahushua to show us how to cross.

If Yahushua is not Elohim, then how can His blood atone for our sins? If He were just a man, and lived a sinless life, then He would have merely not incurred the death penalty upon Himself- how would that atone for the sins of millions of people?

Those of you who dont believe that Yahushua is El, may as well just convert to the religion of Judaism......as a mere man can not save you from your sins. -and Messiah will do you know good if you deny the very thing about Him that atones for your sins.

No, No!.....you misunderstand!

I don't believe that Yahushua was a mere man!!! I believe that He is the Son of God- my statements were asking the question of those who dont believe in the devinity of Yahushua. In other words, I was saying if Yahushua is not devine, then He was just a man- that is what many believe.

I ask that question of you too- If you dont believe Yahushua is the same one who was known as YHWH in the OT, then what more does He possess than an angel or a man?

For the record: I believe that Yahushua is the Son of God- and is the same one who was revealed as YHWH in the OT. His/our Father has not dealt directly with men, but has revealed Himself through His Son.

Sorry for the confusion! I must post this quick! OOooo-oooo!!!