quote:

---

Trooper wrote: “Dave, thank you for answering the questions. Believers receive two spirits. One of the father and another of the Son. Do I understand you correctly?”

---

No, we all have our own spirit and then when we are baptised with the Holy Spirit it is Yahweh coming to dwell in us for we are His temple (1Co 3:16). Yahshua was a human so he too had his own spirit and was filled with the HS as Yahweh dwelled in him as He does us. However, there are several verses that indicate there are two Holy Spirits, one from Yahweh the Father and one from Yahshua the Son.

Ro 8:9 If so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Messiah, he is none of his.
Ga 4:6 Because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Php 1:19 For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Yahshua Messiah,
1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Messiah which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Messiah, and the glory that should follow.

This would seem to indicate the Holy Spirit comes from Yahshua. And it does, sort of:

Joh 15:26 When the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you FROM THE FATHER, even the Spirit of truth, which PROCEEDETH FROM THE FATHER.
Joh 14:16 I will pray the Father, and HE SHALL GIVE you another Comforter.
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom THE FATHER WILL SEND IN MY NAME.
Joh 16:7 It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Joh 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Ac 2:33 Being by the right hand of God exalted, and HAVING RECEIVED OF THE FATHER THE PROMISE OF THE HOLY GHOST.
Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights.

Everything Yahweh the Father is doing is through and for His Son. The HS was given before the resurrection directly by Yahweh but now all things proceed through the Son. Just as no one can approach unto the Father but through Yahshua the Son, so nothing is given unless it is given through the Son.

Is it now Yahshua’s spirit, is it Messiah’s Holy Spirit? Yes, for Yahshua said, “All things that the Father hath are mine” (Joh 16:15). Why does Peter and Paul call the Holy Spirit the “Spirit of Messiah?” Because the Holy Spirit is now given in the name of Messiah, “The Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name” (Joh 14:26).

Is there then more then one spirit?

NO!

1Co 12:13 For by ONE SPIRIT are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into ONE SPIRIT.
Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by ONE SPIRIT unto the Father.
Eph 4:4 There is one body, and ONE SPIRIT, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Php 1:27 Stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

quote:

---

Trooper wrote: “The fullness of the ElHead does not dwell in any believer "bodily." Col 2:9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Elhead bodily.

---

In the past Yahweh dwelt in the temple but now is very pleased to dwell in His Son. Not figuratively or partially, but fully, totally and completely. “Godhead” is only used three times in the NT and each time it is translated from a different Greek word. Here it is translated from #2320 theotes, the KJV translators coined the word “Godhead,” no doubt thinking in terms of the Trinity, rather then using divine or divinity as they did in other places. Theotes is from #2316 theos – God, its meaning pertains to Yahweh’s quintessence, which is the heart or core of Yahweh’s complete essence or being that dwells bodily in Yahshua, “For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell” (Col 1:19).

However, despite what others might force this to say we must admit it says the Father DWELLETH in the Son. He didn’t become the Son or the Son didn’t become Yahweh. “Dwelleth” is a translation of #2730 katoikeo from #3611 oikeo-dwell. Yahweh dwelt in the temple (1Ki 8:27, Mt 23:21), although that was much different and so we can easily accept and understand the meaning of “dwelleth” when it relates to the temple or other believers, but seem to lose the meaning of the word when it is used in Col 2:9. This verse carries much the same meaning as Mt 1:23 and 2Co 5:19, Yahweh being spirit, was and is dwelling without measure in His Son. In Lu 11:26 eight unclean spirits dwelleth (2730) in a man and Ro 8:11 and 1Co 3:16 says God dwells in us. Now we know that doesn’t make any of us Yahweh any more then the temple was Yahweh, so why do people use Col 2:9 to tell us the Messiah is the Father? The Son epitomizes the purest and most concentrated form of Yahweh because he is the most typical example or representation of God. In the Son lodges Yahweh’s pure character, His divine nature, His honourable presence, His glorious power, His executive authority and much more.

quote:

---

Trooper wrote: “It is either Yahuah did it with someone or alone and by Himself. So which is it? By himself or was a second person needed?”

---

The scriptures couldn’t be more clear on this point.

Ne 9:6 Thou, even thou, art Yahweh ALONE; thou hast made heaven.
Isa 44:24 I am Yahweh that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth BY MYSELF;
Isa 45:18 For thus saith Yahweh that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am Yahweh; and there is NONE ELSE.

The Bible specifically points out that the name of the creator is Yahweh.

Am 9:6 It is he that buildeth his stories in the heaven, and hath founded his troop in the earth; he that calleth for the waters of the sea, and poureth them out upon the face of the earth: Yahweh is his name.

It appears Yahweh didn’t so much build the universe with His hands or with hard labour but simply told it to become what He said and it did.

Yahweh’s Son, Yahshua, never claimed to have any part in creation, in fact he told us his Father did the creating.

Mt 11:25 Yahshua answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth.
Mr 10:5 Yahshua answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. 6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.
Mr 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

quote:

---

Trooper wrote: “Those who believe in a Twinity or Trinity have the same arguments and will teach that all things were created by the Father through the Son. Yet the person spoken about in Col 1:14-18 teaches all things were created by Him and through Him and for Him. The context of this scripture places "By Him and through Him" on ONE person and not two. The scriptures continue and say about this same person is that He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.”

---

Pr 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what [is] his name, and what [is] his son's name, if thou canst tell?

This verse is stating that whoever “Hath established all the ends of the earth,” has a name and has a son, which makes him a father. Here we see the Father credited with creating everything and almost as an after thought it mentions His Son.

There are 143 (possibly more) verses in the Bible that speak of the Heavenly Father Yahweh as the Creator.

Ge 1:1, 11, 16, 21, 25, 27; 2:4, 7, 19, 22; 3:1; 5:1, 2; 6:7.
Ex 20:11, 31:17.
De 4:32.
1Sam 2:8.
2Ki 19:15.
1Ch 16:26.
2Ch 2:12.
Neh 9:6.
Job 9:8; 12:9, 10; 26:7, 8, 10, 12; 28:25, 27; 37:15, 16, 18.
Ps 19:1; 24:1, 2; 95:5, 6; 96:5; 102:25; 104:2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 19, 24; 115:15, 16; 119: 89, 90; 121:2; 124:8; 134:3; 135:7; 136:5, 6, 7, 8, 9; 146:6; 148:5, 6.
Pr 3:19; 22:2; 30:4.
Eccl 11:5.
Isa 17:7; 37:6; 40:12, 22, 28; 42:5; 43:15; 44:24; 45:5, 7, 8, 9, 11, 12, 18; 48:13; 51:13, 16; 54:5; 65:17,18; 66:1, 2.
Jer 5:22; 10:11, 12, 13; 14:22; 23:24; 27:5; 31:35; 32:17, 27; 33:2; 51:15.
Amos 4:13; 9:6.
Jonah 1:9.
Zech 12:1.
Mal 2:10.

Mt 11:25; 19:26.
Mr 10:6; 13:19.
Ac 4:24; 7:49,50; 14:15; 17:24, 25, 26, 28.
Ro 1:20, 25; 11:36.
1Co 8:6.
Eph 3:9.
1Ti 4:3.
Heb 1:2; 3:4; 11:3, 10.
Rev 4:11; 10:6; 14:7.

There is not a single verse in the Bible that tells us the Son, Yahshua Messiah, created the universe. However, many translator’s pre-conceived, indoctrinated beliefs led them to interpret scripture instead of doing their job of strictly translating. This has made a few verses appear to indicate the Son did the creating but at the same time they contradict the 100 plus verses that tell us the Father alone did the creating. Here they are.

Jn 1:10 He (the Light vs 8) was in the world, and the world was made by (1223) him, and the world knew him not.
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of (1537) whom are all things, and we in him; and one Master Yahshua Messiah, by (1223) whom are all things, and we by (1223) him.
Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by (1223) Yahshua Messiah:
Col 1:16 For by (1722) him (Son vs 13) were all things created, that are in (1722) heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by (1223) him, and for (1519) him:17 And he is before all things, and by (1722) him all things consist.
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by (1722) [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by (1223) whom also he made the worlds.

#1223 dia; a primary preposition denoting the channel of an act. AV - by 241, through 88, with 16, for 58, for ... sake 47, therefore (+ 5124) 44, for this cause (+ 5124) 14, because 52, misc 86; total 646. Definition: by, by the means of, through, the ground or reason by which something is or is not done, by reason of, on account of, because of for this reason, on this account.

#1519 eis; a primary preposition indicating the point reached or entered. AV - into 573, to 281, unto 207, for 140, in 138, on 58, toward 29, against 26, misc 322; total 1774. Definition: into, unto, to, towards, for, among,

#1537 ek; a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause). AV - of 366, from 181, out of 162, by 55, on 34, with 25, misc 98; total 921. Definition: out of, from, by, away from

#1722 en; a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively). AV - in 1902, by 163, with 140, among 117, at 113, on 62, through 39, misc 265; total 2801.

Jn 1:10, 1Co 8:6, Eph 3:9, Col 1:16 and Heb 1:2 in the KJV read as if the universe was created “by him,” that is the Son. “By” is translated from the Greek word “dia” and properly could be inserted in all these verses if that was what the context of the particular verse required, as well as the context of the entire Bible required. In the following verses try to insert “by” in place of “for” without destroying the true original meaning.

Mr 2:27 He said unto them, The sabbath was made for (1223) man, and not man for (1223) the sabbath.
Jn 15:21 But all these things will they do unto you for (1223) my name's sake.
Ac 21:35 When he (Paul) came upon the stairs, so it was, that he was borne of the soldiers for (1223) the violence of the people.
1Co 11:9 Neither was the man created for (1223) the woman; but the woman for (1223) the man.
1Ti 5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for (1223) thy stomach's sake.
1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for (1223) you.
Rev 6:9 I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for (1223) the word of God, and for (1223) the testimony which they held.

Would you accept the doctrine you’ve been taught if you had to believe that the Sabbath was made BY man or that woman was created BY the man? Would you acknowledge that Yahshua was manifested BY you or that the saints were slain BY the word of God and BY their own testimony? Of course you would not because it would conflict with what the rest of the Bible teaches.

Try and replace “because” or “because of” with “by” and see what happens.

Jn 12:30 Yahshua answered and said, This voice came not because of (1223) me, but for (1223) your sakes.
Ac 16:3 Him (Timothy) would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because (1223) of the Jews.
Heb 7:24 But this man (Yahshua), because (1223) he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Messiah, who through (1223) the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this cause (1223) he is the mediator of the new testament.
Jas 4:2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because (1223) ye ask not.

This small sample from many, effectively shows how “dia” is often translated “because” or “because of” or “for this cause.” The definition of “dia” is based on two primary causes: 1. Indicates the path of the action, often translated by, through, with; 2. The reason of the action, translated for, on account of, because of etc.

Now when we read Jn 1:10 we see The world was made FOR or BECAUSE of (1223) him.. 1Co 8:6 shows us there is “One Master Yahshua Messiah, FOR (1223) whom are all things, and we BY or THROUGH (1223) him. Looking at Eph 3:9 it should read, “Hath been hid in God, who created all things FOR or BECAUSE of (1223) Yahshua Messiah.

Any Father builds his business or empire to leave to his son and Heb 1:2 reveals this is what Yahweh has done. Yahweh (vs 1)“ hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, FOR (1223) whom also he made the worlds.” The Son is the heir not the creator, the Son inherits, as do all heirs, he does not bequeath. The Creator Yahweh created everything in order to bequeath it to His Son. The entire Bible is agreed that the Father creates and gives to the Son who accepts and receives, (Dan 7:14, Mt 28:18, Lu 1:32, Jn 13:3 & 16:15, Ac 2:36, Ro 8:17, 1Co 15:27, Ep 1:10 & 22, Phi 2:9-11, Col 1:19 and Heb 2:8). Read them and rejoice.

Let’s now look at how the translators treated the Greek word “en” (1722). The writers of the KJV translated it 1902 times as “in” and 163 times as “by.” But in Col. 1:16, where “en” appears twice in the first sentence, they take the opportunity to make the Son the creator when they use the word “by” the first time (by him were all things created), but then have to revert back to “in” seven words later (that are in heaven).

Col 1:16 For by (1722) him were all things created, that are in (1722) heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by (1223) him, and for (1519) him:17 And he is before all things, and by (1722) him all things consist.

Yahweh saw fit to unfold and accomplish His design in Yahshua, just look for yourself at Jn 13:31-32; Ac 10:43; 2Co 1:19-20, 5:21, 13:4; Ep 1:4; Phi 3:9; Col 1:19, 2:6-10; 2Th 1:12; and 1Jn 2:5 where all things are in (en) him, not by him.

Yahweh is glorified IN HIM.
Sinners believe IN HIM.
Yahweh’s promises are yea IN HIM.
We are made righteous IN HIM.
We are weak IN HIM.
We are chosen IN HIM.
We are found IN HIM.
All fullness dwells IN HIM.
We walk IN HIM.
We’re rotted and built up IN HIM.
We are complete IN HIM.
We are glorified IN HIM.
We are IN HIM.

So Col 1:16, in order for it to conform to the NT theme, must also most definitely read: For IN him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created because of him, and for him: And he is before all things, and IN him all things consist.

Paul said almost the exact same thing in Eph 1:10, “That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he (Yahweh) might gather together in one all things in (1722) Messiah, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him.”

quote:

---

Trooper wrote: “All of this only discribes One Person and a Person of this stature and preeminence can only apply to Yahuah. Even the following scriptures prove it applies to Yahuah, for He has preeminence in all things.
Col 1:18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
Now since this Person wants to have preeminence in all things and if He is a second person and not Yahuah, how is it any different than Satan wanting to have preeminence also? Is this not a sin?”

---

Why do you claim “This Person wants to have preeminence in all things.” It never says Messiah sought after any preeminence it only states that it was given to him.

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name.

Yahweh the Father created everything and then after the Son obeyed Yahweh’s will the Father exalted him and bequeathed everything to the Son.

1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

Hi Dave

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dave52:
However, there are several verses that indicate there are two Holy Spirits, one from Yahweh the Father and one from Yahshua the Son.

Is there then more then one spirit?

NO!

1Co 12:13 For by ONE SPIRIT are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into ONE SPIRIT.
Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by ONE SPIRIT unto the Father.
Eph 4:4 There is one body, and ONE SPIRIT, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Php 1:27 Stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

---

Please let me know when you have a sound answer.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dave52:
But wait, you and I can also be honoured in the same way. Yahshua is not the only one having the fullness of God but Paul says, ?Ye might be filled with all the fulness of God? (Ep 3:19). Peter also tells us Yahweh?s promises are that ?Ye might be partakers of the divine nature? (2Pe 1:4). So concerning Yahshua this is what Yahweh intended, He highly exalted His Son (Ps 8:5-6, Dan 7:14, Mt 28:18, Jn 5:26, Ac 2:36 & 5:31, Ro 8:11, 1Co 3:16, Ep 1:20-22, Php 2:9, 1Pe 3:22, 2Pe 1:17, Rev 5:12), but He did not turn Himself into His Son.

---

Are you saying you have been honored with the dwelling of the fullness of the "ElHead" bodily?

Shalom

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dave52:
?By? is translated from the Greek word ?dia? and properly could be inserted in all these verses if that was what the context of the particular verse required, as well as the context of the entire Bible required. In the following verses try to insert ?by? in place of ?for? without destroying the true original meaning.

---

I see your point about by and for. But you can also insert "in, at and on. So your argument is not very strong at all. We have to look at the context of the scripture. The following scripture is speaking about Yahshuah and gives a clue for translation.

Col 1:16-18 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

The scripture is speaking about One who is before all things. Therefore, the One before all things was the One who created everthing. The context of the scriptures gives the clue for translation. And He is before all things Or will you write this scripture off too?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dave52:
Why do you claim ?This Person wants to have preeminence in all things.? It never says Messiah sought after any preeminence it only states that it was given to him.

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name.

Yahweh the Father created everything and then after the Son obeyed Yahweh?s will the Father exalted him and bequeathed everything to the Son.

1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

Yahshua has preeminence over everything except the Father for ?The head of every man is Messiah; and the head of the woman is the man; and THE HEAD OF MESSIAH IS GOD? (1Co 11:3).

---

No, "that scripture" does not state "it was given to him" but it does say "That He might have." Now, I can see your point that that it might be given from your view of Yahshuah being 100% man. But understanding Yahuah is Yahshuah also, it would be something Yahuah sought after to save His people.

BTW:

Which is it?

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us for his Son,.....;

Shalom

Your quote of me:

Posted 06-12-2003 04:21 PM Trooper Wrote: I would like to make only one statement pertaining to the issue

All of what I said in my statement is as follows:

Those who don't know Yahshuah well know Him as the Son of Elohim only. Those that know him well should know Him as the Father and the Son. For if you ask Yahshuah to show you the Father and if you should know Him well, He will respond, Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me?

John 14:8-9 Philip said to Him, "Master, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us." Yahshuah said to him, [b]"Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

Yes you will say, "are you saying that I do not know Him well just because I don't know Him as the Father and the Son? This is absurd"

But as you see Phillip did not know, but should have! And Yahshuah seems to think Phillip's question was a bit absurd, because Phillip had been with Yahshuah all that time. So take it up with Yahshuah and ask him to show you the Father and He will say again but only if you should know him well, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known My Father?" NO, He said Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me?

This means we have to teach these scripture along with the other scriptures. These scriptures do not do away with the scriptures where Yahshuah speaks of his Father, nor does those scriptures do away with Yahshuah stating what He did.

We must teach that Yahshuah said He was the Son and we must teach His reply to Phillip who asked show us the Father.

"Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father;

Shalom and Yahuah bless you!![/b]
----

You quote me again but leave out my points of why I said such a thing in a reply to you:

06-17-2003 02:43 AM Trooper Wrote:
So in fact man was not created in their image and their likeness, but in HIS image.

Here is what I said in reply to you.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lynn:
Shalom Trooper,

You wrote:
[b]Isa 45:18 For thus says Yahuah, Who created the heavens, Who is Elohim, Who formed the earth and made it, Who has established it, Who did not create it in vain, Who formed it to be inhabited: "I am Yahuah, and there is no other.

My responce: Isa 45:12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens; and all their host have I commanded.

However in Gen 1:2 it says within "Let us make man in our image" and in Gen 3:22 it says within "the man has become like one of us".

][/B]

---

( I had to ask the following twice before you addressed it.)

Hey again

But why does it say in the following scripture that Elohim created man in His OWN image instead of "Their"?

Gen 1:27 So Elohim created man in his own image, in the image of Elohim created he him; male and female created he them.

So in fact man was not created in their image and their likeness, but in HIS image.

Should the following scriptures really read.....??

Gen 1:31 And Elohim saw every thing that they had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day Elohim ended his work which they had made; and they rested on the seventh day from all their work which they had made.

Gen 2:18 And Yahuah Elohim said, It is not good that the man should be alone; We will make him an help meet for him.

Gen 6:7 And Yahuah said, I will destroy man whom We have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that We have made them.

Shalom

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lynn:
Notice the word "WITHIN" in my statement.
You forgot to include it in yours.

---

Shalom Lynn

"Within" does not change any point to your statement. If you do not want to be questioned/tested for what you teach in the face of scripture then so be it. But a true teacher of Yahuah will!!

You wrote:

Scripture says that YHWH created the heavens and the earth, and that all things within the heavens and within the earth where created by/through Yahshua, but note that Yahshua also said he did nothing of himself or without the Father.
----

If Yahuah said He created all things, stretched out the heavens all alone and spread abroad the earth by Himself, then there was no second person when Yahuah created anything!

Isa 44:24 Thus says Yahuah, your Redeemer, And He who formed you from the womb:
"I am Yahuah, who makes all things, Who stretches out the heavens all alone,
Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself;

The scriptures are clear. Yahshuah (image and form of Elohim) created the worlds and all things and without Him nothing was made that was made.

Heb 1:1-3 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;

John 1:3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

Hence no second person before, at or during creation!!

Praise YAH, Yahuah my Yahshuah HaMashiach!!

Shalom

quote:

---

Trooper wrote: “Are you saying you have been honored with the dwelling of the fullness of the "ElHead" bodily?”

---

Eph 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that YE MIGHT BE FILLED WITH ALL THE FULNESS OF GOD.

I am not saying I am, only that the saints “might be filled with all the fulness of God.” Do you agree with this verse? Anyway, how do you see Col. 2:9 and what is it telling you?

quote:

---

Trooper wrote: “The scripture is speaking about One who is before all things. Therefore, the One before all things was the One who created everthing. The context of the scriptures gives the clue for translation. And He is before all things Or will you write this scripture off too?”

---

To describe how Yahshua now holds preeminence over all the universe the Bible uses several phrases to say this:

Higher than the kings (Ps 89:27)
All power is given unto me (Mt 28:18)
Given all things into his hand (Joh 3:35)
The head over all things (Ep 1:22)
Put all things under his feet (1Co 15:27)
Appointed heir of all things (Heb 1:2)
In all things he might have the pre-eminence (Col 1:18)
and of course, Before all things (Col 1:17)

”Before all things” doesn’t mean before, as in time, but before as in superior or above all things.

But who made him Higher than the kings?
Who decreed All power be given unto him?
Who has Given all things into his hand?
Who made him The head over all things?
Who Put all things under his feet?
Who Appointed him heir of all things?
Who allowed that In all things he might have the pre-eminence?
And Who put him Before all things?

1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that HE IS EXCEPTED, which did put all things under him.

What is all this about if you think he has pre-eminence because he is Yahweh and was before all creation.

1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of (1537) whom are all things, and we in him; and one Master Yahshua Messiah, by (1223) whom are all things, and we by (1223) him.

Notice God the Father “ek” all things. “Ek” denotes origin and is never used when talking about Yahshua.

#1537 ek; a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause). AV - of 366, from 181, out of 162, by 55, on 34, with 25, misc 98; total 921. Definition: out of, from, by, away from

quote:

---

Trooper wrote: “Which is it? Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us for his Son,.....;”

---

I never said “en” couldn’t be translated “by” if the context required it. “Spoken unto us for his Son” would not have any support in the rest of the scriptures.

#1722 en ~ AV-in 1902, by 163, with 140, among 117, at 113, on 62, through 39, misc 265; 2801.

Spoken unto us at his Son
Spoken unto us among his Son
Spoken unto us on his Son

If this speaks of Yahshua as the creator of every single thing and the beginning of the beginning there are a few questions that need clarification.

How could he be his own image? How could Trooper be the image of Trooper?
If he was the firstborn then who gave birth to him for there would be nothing around at that time?
If he was the firstborn then he is not eternal but had a beginning.

I think you are looking at “firstborn” or “the beginning” to mean Yahshua existed before anything else which doesn't fit the overall view of scripture.

Col 1:15, “Who (the Son vs 13) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature (2937).”

Ktisis, #2937, is translated creature or creation. Was the Son the first act of creation by the Father? Trinitarians must say no, since they advocate he was with the Father before the beginning, and other pre-existent promoters say he was the creator. Then what does this verse say? It says the Son was the “firstborn,” not the first created. If we say Cain was the firstborn human, how could someone born thousands of years afterwards be so designated? As we study the following verses it becomes perfectly clear.

Ps 102:18 This shall be written for the generation to come: and the people which shall be created shall praise Yahweh.
Ps 104:29 Thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust. 30 Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.
Isa 65:17 Behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Isa 66:22 The new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith Yahweh.
Heb 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come.
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come.
2Pe 3:13 We, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth.
Rev 21:5 He that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.

Yahweh created Adam the first human and this present world, the scriptures state He will also create a new world and newly created beings as well. David said the generation to come are those “which shall be created,” created by Yahweh’s spirit. Yahweh says in Isaiah He will “create new heavens and a new earth.” Hebrews calls it “the world to come,” and in Revelation John hears Yahweh say, “Behold, I make all things new.” This new creation has already been started, with Yahshua the Son the beginning of it. Those at the first resurrection will follow Yahshua and be born again or created into this new world to come.

1Co 15:20 But now is Messiah risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Messiah the firstfruits; afterward they that are Messiah's at his coming.
Jas 1:18 That we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
Rev 14:4 These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

The “firstfruits” of the harvest should always be offered to Yahweh in thanksgiving. Yahshua said, “The harvest is the end of the world” (Mt 13:39) and in Rev 14:15 we see the harvest begin. Read these precious promises:

Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Col 1:18 He is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead.
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven.
Rev 3:14 These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.

Yahshua is “the firstborn among many brethren,” but it says he “is the beginning,” just the beginning. Those who are to follow him and be like him are “written in heaven.” Yes indeed Yahweh’s Son is the beginning of Yahweh’s creation, not the creation that began with Adam but this new creation that has begun with Yahshua. Remember, Paul said Adam was “the figure of him that was to come” (Ro 5:15), meaning Yahshua, and he refers to Adam as “the first man,” calling the Messiah “the last Adam” (1Co 15:45).

Col 1:17 He is before all things, and by* him all things consist.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dave52:
I am not saying I am, only that the saints ?might be filled with all the fulness of God.? Do you agree with this verse? Anyway, how do you see Col. 2:9 and what is it telling you?

---

Yes, I agree with the verse. We should be filled with the fullness of Yahuah. However, I do not believe this pertains to being filled with the fullness of the ElHead bodily. I believe this is two different things and only one is worthy of such a fullness.

Shalom and YAH bless!

quote:

---

Trooper wrote: “We must teach that Yahshuah said He was the Son and we must teach His reply to Phillip who asked show us the Father.
"Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father;”

---

SEEN THE FATHER
Jn.6:46 Not that any man hath seen (3708) the Father, save he which is of Yahweh, he hath seen (3708) the Father.

What is John telling us, that Yahshua literally saw Yahweh with his human eyes? Yahweh has said, “Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live” (Ex 33:20). Yahshua was a man and subject to death so how could he see Yahweh and live?

Jn 15:21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know (1492) not him that sent me. 22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin. 23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also. 24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen (3708) and hated both me and my Father.

Yet here Yahshua appears to contradict himself, for he tells us not only he himself has seen (3708) the Father but the world also has “both seen (3708) and hated” Him. To correctly see (understand) what is what, we must check out the Greek words.

#3708 horao; AV - see 51, take heed 5, behold 1, perceive 1, not tr 1; total 59; Definition: to see with the eyes, see with the mind, to perceive, know, to experience, to take heed, beware, to care for.

#1097 ginosko; AV - know 196, perceive 9, understand 8, misc 10; total 223; Definition: perceive, understand, learn to know, get knowledge of, perceive, feel, become acquainted with.

#1492 oida or eido; AV - know 281, cannot tell + 3756 8, know how 7, wist 6, misc 19, see 314, behold 17, look 6, perceive 5, vr see 3, vr know 1; total 667; Definition: to see or perceive with the eyes or any of the senses, notice, discern, discover, to pay attention, observe, to inspect, examine, to look at, behold, to visit, to know, i.e. get knowledge of, understand.

W. E. Vine: “The differences between ginosko (1097) and oida (1492) demand consideration: (a) ginosko, frequently suggests inception or progress in knowledge, while oida suggests fulness of knowledge.” Example: “Ye (Jews) have not known (ginosko) him; but I know (oida) him” (Jn 8:55). The Jews didn’t attempt to know Yahweh but Yahshua knew Him perfectly.”

So in Jn 15:21-24 above, Yahshua is saying that the Jews didn’t perfectly know (oida) the Father but because of the extraordinary works that he displayed they couldn’t help but be aware he was of God and so ignorance will not excuse them from this sin of rejecting both the Father and His Son.

HE THAT HAS SEEN ME HAS SEEN THE FATHER
Jn 14:7 If ye had known (1097) me, ye should have known (1097) my Father also: and from henceforth ye know (1097) him, and have seen (3708) him. 8 Philip saith unto him, Master, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9 Yahshua saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known (1097) me, Philip? he that hath seen (3708) me hath seen (3708) the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

It was not an actual bodily sighting of the Father (see definitions above), but a mental awareness of the Father’s characterizes that they were observing (See Ac 8:23 where horao is used). How can we be sure Yahshua is speaking of a mental not a visual picture? Look at this verse, “No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him” (Jn 1:18). In order for us to see the Father, Yahshua has had to declare Him, he didn’t draw a picture or say that he himself was the Father but declared Him in words and deeds. That is why he was able to say “and from henceforth ye have seen him.” Consider it said that the disciples saw Yahweh. To further confirm this, when Yahshua spoke to Philip he used the word know* (1097) four times, he expected they would by now be acquainted and identify with him and his Father, that they would understand the Father and Son. Our English word “see” can also be used to stand in for words such as, distinguish, perceive, understand, observe, grasp, comprehend, refer to, consider, investigate, realize, and get the message (no pun intended).

So in Jn 14:8-10 he isn’t saying what you are looking at is the Father, because even Oneness say that His body was the Son not the Father and Oneness believe the Father is spirit and the Son is the human man. Yahshua doesn’t say He is the Father but ends the passage by saying, “the Father that dwelleth in me” (vs. 10).

Why do some insist this passage says the Son is the Father, one person? We could assume this to be one of the meanings you could draw from it even thought it doesn’t say that. In a large percentage of the uses of horao it is translated, “See thou tell no man” or “see that ye be not troubled,” not in the sense of seeing with the eyes but seeing with the mind. Read this next verse.

Jn 16:25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew* (312) you plainly of the Father.

*#312 anaggello; AV - tell 6, show 6, declare 3, rehearse 1, speak 1, report 1; total 18; Definition: to announce, make known, to report, bring back tidings, rehearse.

Wow, now he says, since they’re slow to grasp his meanings, I’m going to describe the Father plainly, nice and slow and clear. His choice of words is anaggello, a word taken directly from the Greek word for angel or messenger, aggelos. After all he is Yahweh’s messenger, his mission is to manifest the Father. Apparently the disciples had not seen, or should we say understood, of the Father completely but were soon to be shown more of the Father. In Jn 15:24 Yahshua says the world has seen the Father through his words and deeds and we also can say we have seen the Father by listening to the words of His Son.

Yahshua also says, “Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?” Many think for him to be in the Father must make him the Father. Read the next verses.

Jn 14:20 I [am] in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
Jn 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us.
Joh 17:22 The glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
Jn 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one.

We are in the Father, the Father is in us, the Son is in the Father, we are in the Son and so forth, but are we all one? Does this make us all one person? Everybody says of course not! Does it make the Father and Son one person? Oneness, without thinking, automatically says, yes of course!

1Co 6:17 He that is joined unto the Master is one spirit.

Remember there is only one spirit, the Father. If we are in the one spirit and the one spirit is in us we are one, but not one person. The same applies to the Saviour. Go back to “Incarnate or Manifest?” and “The Son reveals the Father,” there you will find more evidence that Yahshua’s goal or mission was to be able to say, “He that hath seen me hath seen the Father,” and to be understood.

quote:

---

Trooper wrote: “Yes, I agree with the verse. We should be filled with the fullness of Yahuah. However, I do not believe this pertains to being filled with the fullness of the ElHead bodily. I believe this is two different things and only one is worthy of such a fullness.”

---

Just for a bit look at the Son in a different light and tell me if it is possible for Yahuah to do this.

Look at the Son as just an image and vessel of honor, for in which Yahuah used, filled and dwelled in. But please remember the image and vessel of honor is not Yahuah, but the only Person inside this image and vessel of honor is Yahuah.

Yahuah wanted to create man in His Image and Likeness. However, He is invisible and has no shape or form to do this. In order for Yahuah to create a being after His Image and likeness He first needs a patteren, a blueprint so to speak. So He first creates himself an Image (firstborn) to create His people by. He then uses this same image to create Adam and breaths into the form He created "in His image" and man becomes a living soul. Now since an image was needed to create Adam in Yahuah's image, Elohim/YAH became plural for the creation of His people. This is why there is but One True Elohim but the meaning is plural, for He can do all things and be any thing He wants to be. Therefore all things are created by/through this same Image, and He (the person) is before all things. In a sense the Image is also before all things because it was created first then the worlds and man was created.

Yahuah's creation of Adam fell into sin. So our Redeemer's image was born into this world with the Ruwach to save His People from their sins. This image was called the Son of Elohim. This image (not person) died on the tree, but the Ruwach in Him raised the body from the dead. Because of all of this, this Image with Yahuah's Ruwach dwells at the right hand of the Father and will forver remain as High Priest for the people He redeemed. This same image will be used in the day and time of the new earth as a way for Yahuah to walk with His people in the same form they are in.

Does Yahuah have the ability to do all of this in the same fashion?

Shalom

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dave52:
So tell us what is "bodily" to you? How does that word make a difference?

---

Hey Dave

It is not just the word "Bodily," but the word Elhead and its meaning used with the word bodily.

For in Him (Yahshuah) dwells all the Fullness of the Elhead bodily.

Meaning, as pure Deity in a bodily form.

Shalom

Yahushua contained the fulness of Eloah according to Collosians 2:9 and verse 10 say "we are complete/full in Him"...

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Messiah.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Eloah bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of Elah, who hath raised him from the dead.

fulness-4138 pleroma (play'-ro-mah);from 4137; repletion or completion, i.e. (subjectively) what fills (as contents, supplement, copiousness, multitude), or (objectively) what is filled (as container, performance, period): KJV-- which is put in to fill up, piece that filled up, fulfilling, full, fulness.

2320 theotes (theh-ot'-ace);from 2316; divinity (abstractly): KJV-- godhead.

If my memory serves me correctly this word "Godhead" is Elah in the Aramaic text

complete-4137 pleroo (play-ro'-o);from 4134; to make replete, i.e. (literally) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow), or (figuratively) to furnish (or imbue, diffuse, influence), satisfy, execute (an office), finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc.: KJV-- accomplish, X after, (be) complete, end, expire, fill (up), fulfil, (be, make) full (come), fully preach, perfect, supply.

Col 4:12 Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Messiah, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of Elah.

John 1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

Yahushua was indwelt with the fullness of Eloah. Paul here is writing against the Platonistic Greek philosophy that was popular among both Greeks and Jews of this day since Philo of Alexandria Egypt used this philosphy to show the "Debar" Greek "Logos" English "the Word" of Yahueh to be similar to the the imination off of Yahueh Plato spoke of.

Gnosticism was on the rise and infilterating all belief systems with this Platonic Greek philosophy. It even in used in the Aramiac Targums refered to as the Memra if my memory serves me correctly. It goes all the way back into the early mystery religions and Jewish mystical writings of the Kabballah.

Gnosticism taught that "Matter" was evil therefor to achieve a higher state one must put off this body of matter. Paul and Yachanon/John in their writing implicitly denied this philosophy and preached against it in their epistles.

"Pleroma" is the word used to express in this Greek philosophy the pure state of spirit being much as the Hindus & "New Age" (sic) use the term "nirvana" coming from the same idea and source; Babylon ultimatly.

Marcion a Gnostic taught that the god of the Old Testament was Satan because he created matter.(Remember Yahueh says it is "good" and "very good".) He taught that only Paul's writings were for us today. Sound familiar? And yet Paul in this passage blows Gnostic basis tenents out of the water because here Paul tells us that we can achieve a higher state in Yahushua alone while in bodies of mater through recieving fulness or completeness in Messiah or the Anointing that Yahushua indwells us with, in our sinful flesh cleansed by the blood of Yahushua to prepare us for this wonderful infilling of the Spirit.

The point I am making is that Yahushua has all authority and is indwelt with the fullness of Yahueh who is the only true Elah. We are not indwelt with this fullness of Yahueh but we are made complete or full in the Messiah( Anointed Anointer) Yahushua as we can be by obeying the glad tidings Yahushua gave to the Apostles to preach passing on this ministry of reconciliation to us in this time who have recieved of this same Spirit to empower us to live above sin and witness to all nations His message of hope.

2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man be in the Anointing, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things are of Elah, who hath reconciled us to himself by Yahushua the Anointed anointer, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that Yahueh was in The Messiah, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

So then Yahushua was not an angelic imination(Hebrew chapter one confirms this)seperate from the Father but the spoken Word of the ultimate creation of Yahueh: a temple which Yahueh in all His fullness dwells. Yahueh in matter or flesh at which Satan and all the demonic host tremble! \o/HalleluYah\o/

This is why that only through Yahushua can one recieve this redemption from Satan and his minions of deception because it is all in Him. The name of Yahushua is the only name of deliverance and salvation! \0/HalleluYah\o/

------------------
David ben Yacob