My responce to your last question is: read the scriptures and pray to the Heavenly Father through Yahshua. Ask that the spirit of truth guides to you proper understanding in your works and reading of the scriptures.

Seek the Father will all your heart and all your soul.

Shalom in Yahweh,

Brother Yohanan

You wrote What does the message Yahshua deliver to the people?

He delivered the truth and the truth will set us free.

Shalom in Yahweh

You wrote:
Although I havent came to the conclusion that Yahshua was actually created, you could be right. And yes If he was then it would have been before the time of creation. The way I see it is that Yahshua was given authority, over the world.

My Reply

According to a few scriptures shown above, Yahshua was created. And Yes Yahshua was the beginning of creation as shown in scriptures above. Yes Yahshua was given certain authorities (1 Pet 3:22), however the Father also gave Yahshua commandments of what to say and what to speak to us. (John 12: 49-50)

1 Corinthian 15:28 And when all things have been subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subjected to him that did subject all things unto him, that Elohim may be all in all.

Yahweh is the authority over all things.

Shalom in Yahweh

You wrote:

Please answer this.

Are there two Ruwachs?

Does Yahshuah have a separate Ruwach of His own that makes him a separate being from the Father?

How many Ruwachs were in Yahshuah?.

Clearly it must be that Yahshua, as a man, had a human spirit, He said, prior to His sacrificial death:

"And when YAHSHUA had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost" Luke 23:46) (See also Acts 7:59).

The Holy Spirit descended upon Him while He was on this earth:

"And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him" (Mark 1:10).

Fulfilling the ancient prophecy:

"Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles" (Matt.12:18).

This then, would conclude that Yahshua as a man, had a human spirit, as well as being full of the Holy Spirit, and in this regard, human beings must become like Him.

Thus Paul wrote:

"The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of ELOHIYM" (Rom.8:16).

Some things to think about:

Clearly a lot of conversations were going on between the Father and the Son. The Son once said that "The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise" (John 5:19). The modalists (those who believe the Father and the Son is the same person) always comes up with the Scripture from John 14:9 "he that hath seen me hath seen the Father" , choosing to interpret this literally, i.e. the Son IS the Father (where in creation do you see that the Father and the Son is the SAME person? Truly a "mystery")! Rather, they were so totally in harmonious unity, that anyone who saw the Son through Him saw His Father!

But the same modalists seem to avoid Scriptures like this one:

"But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape" (John 5:36-37).

If they had seen the Father when they had seen the Son (and were still alive!), why would Yahshua say something like this? If the Father had NOT a bodily form, why would Yahshua say like this?

Also the there are two witnesses that Torah requires, if Yahshua only testified on His own behalf, it would not be valid, but His Father were testifying for Him as well.

Remember, there is only ONE Scripture that seem to say "ELOHIYM is a Spirit", however if you go to the original Greek writings, you will not find the word "is". And it would hardly contradict the many Scriptures which clearly describes the Father with a spirit, soul and a body (which makes up a person).

Here are some Scriptures from the Tanakh proving this:

head & hair: Dan.7:9
eyes: Prov.15:3; Dt.11:12; Ps.34:15
eyelids: Ps.11:4
ears: Ps.17:6; 34:15
nose (smell): Lev.26:31; Amos 5:21; Phip.4:18
nostrils: Ex.15:8; Job 4:9; Ps.18:8,15
mouth: Dt.8:3
tongue: Isa.30:27
lips: Job 11:5; 23:12; Isa.30:27
breath: Ps.33:6
voice: Gen.3:8; Dt.4:12; Isa.6:8; 30:30
face / countenance: Ex.33:20; Ps.13:1 Num.6:26; Ps.4:6
arm / hands: Dt.33:27; Isa.51:5 Gen.49:24; Ex.15:17; Isa.5:12
finger: Ex.8:19; 31:18; Lk.11:20; Ps.8:3
back: Ex.33:23
feet: Ex.24:10; 2Sam.22:10; Isa.60:13; Nah.1:3
a general bodily form ("image"): Num.12:8; Jas.3:9; Rev.4:3 Gen.1:26-27 with 5:3
heart: Gen.6:6; 8:1; Hos.11:8
spirit: Gen.1:2; 1Cor.2:11
soul: Isa.1:14; 42:1; Jer.5:9, 29

YHWH created man in "His image", if He was just an invisible Spirit, then man would be so too.

Shalom,

YbG.

[This message has been edited by Yahchov (edited 01-24-2003).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yahchov:
Greetings TRM,

You wrote:

[b]Please answer this.

Are there two Ruwachs?

Does Yahshuah have a separate Ruwach of His own that makes him a separate being from the Father?

How many Ruwachs were in Yahshuah?.

Clearly it must be that Yahshua, as a man, had a human spirit, He said, prior to His sacrificial death:

"And when YAHSHUA had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost" Luke 23:46) (See also Acts 7:59).

The Holy Spirit descended upon Him while He was on this earth:

"And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him" (Mark 1:10).

[/B]

---

Thank you for you reply.

Does your answer apply to a pre existences of the son?

Just for the sake of understanding: is there only one of you, or are there more? Are you a family, or to get to the point: Why is your alias plural?

Anywho: Just to begin with, I will show you a few texts from the Scriptures, and then explain them:

"Who is the image of the invisible Elohim [by the way, Elohim isn't invisible, as we can see from Daniel 7: 9-14], the firstborn [Greek "prototokas" meaning "first in rank"] of every creature" (Colossians 1: 15, KJV, notations mine);

"And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn [Greek "prototokas," meaning "first in rank"]from the dead [we know that Yahshua wasn't the first from the dead, for we read these words: "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses [i.e., the first death from which there has been no resurrection! Take also into consideration Lazarus of Bethany, and others who came forth from the grave before Yahshua . . .], even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come" (Romans 5: 14, KJV, notations mine)]; that in all things he might have the preeminence [i.e., that in everything Yahshua might be preeminent] (Colossians 1: 18, KJV, notations mine);

"To the general assembly and church of the firstborn [Greek "prototokas" as above], which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect" (Hebrews 12: 23, KJV, notations mine).

We may as well go to another text that proves more than you desire to, for this one is also used in an erroneous manner: "These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning [i.e., Yahshua is the Source of all creation, not the first One created] of the creation of Elohim" (Revelation 3: 14, KJV).

When we go to that first chapter of John, we read these words:

"In the beginning was [whenever the beginning was, Yahshua was there at the beginning] the Word, and the Word was with Elohim [the Word, Yahshua Messiah (see verse 14), was not an afterthought to Yahweh], and the Word was Elohim [the Word, Who was with Elohim from the beginning, was/is/always will be, Elohim!]" 2: The same was in the beginning with Elohim. 3: All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made [this is patently incorrect, unless the truth is that Yahshua was never made, for how can One make everything that was made, and at the same time make Himself? This is incorrect, for it doesn't mention that He made not Himself, therefore, we are to assume [without bringing any other Scripture to bear], that He is Elohim]" (John 1: 1-3, KJV, emphasis & notations mine).
4: In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5: And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6: There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7: The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8: He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9: That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10: He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11: He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12: But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14: And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

You wrote:

"Does your answer apply to a pre existences of the son?".

This requires a lengthy answer, I enclose this link from YNCA as answer:

http://www.ynca.com/Mini%20Studies/preexist.htm

Shalom,

YbG.

The question was as follows:

Q:Are there two Ruwachs?

Does Yahshuah have a separate Ruwach of His own that makes him a separate being from the Father?

How many Ruwachs were in Yahshuah?.

A: Clearly it must be that Yahshua, as a man, had a human spirit, He said, prior to His sacrificial death:

"And when YAHSHUA had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost" Luke 23:46) (See also Acts 7:59).

The Holy Spirit descended upon Him while He was on this earth:

"And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him" (Mark 1:10).

Fulfilling the ancient prophecy:

"Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles" (Matt.12:18).

This then, would conclude that Yahshua as a man, had a human spirit, as well as being full of the Holy Spirit, and in this regard, human beings must become like Him.

Thus Paul wrote:

"The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of ELOHIYM" (Rom.8:16).

Some things to think about:

Clearly a lot of conversations were going on between the Father and the Son. The Son once said that "The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise" (John 5:19). The modalists (those who believe the Father and the Son is the same person) always comes up with the Scripture from John 14:9 "he that hath seen me hath seen the Father" , choosing to interpret this literally, i.e. the Son IS the Father (where in creation do you see that the Father and the Son is the SAME person? Truly a "mystery")! Rather, they were so totally in harmonious unity, that anyone who saw the Son through Him saw His Father!

But the same modalists seem to avoid Scriptures like this one:

"But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape" (John 5:36-37).

If they had seen the Father when they had seen the Son (and were still alive!), why would Yahshua say something like this? If the Father had NOT a bodily form, why would Yahshua say like this?

Also the there are two witnesses that Torah requires, if Yahshua only testified on His own behalf, it would not be valid, but His Father were testifying for Him as well.

Remember, there is only ONE Scripture that seem to say "ELOHIYM is a Spirit", however if you go to the original Greek writings, you will not find the word "is". And it would hardly contradict the many Scriptures which clearly describes the Father with a spirit, soul and a body (which makes up a person).

Here are some Scriptures from the Tanakh proving this:

head & hair: Dan.7:9
eyes: Prov.15:3; Dt.11:12; Ps.34:15
eyelids: Ps.11:4
ears: Ps.17:6; 34:15
nose (smell): Lev.26:31; Amos 5:21; Phip.4:18
nostrils: Ex.15:8; Job 4:9; Ps.18:8,15
mouth: Dt.8:3
tongue: Isa.30:27
lips: Job 11:5; 23:12; Isa.30:27
breath: Ps.33:6
voice: Gen.3:8; Dt.4:12; Isa.6:8; 30:30
face / countenance: Ex.33:20; Ps.13:1 Num.6:26; Ps.4:6
arm / hands: Dt.33:27; Isa.51:5 Gen.49:24; Ex.15:17; Isa.5:12
finger: Ex.8:19; 31:18; Lk.11:20; Ps.8:3
back: Ex.33:23
feet: Ex.24:10; 2Sam.22:10; Isa.60:13; Nah.1:3
a general bodily form ("image"): Num.12:8; Jas.3:9; Rev.4:3 Gen.1:26-27 with 5:3
heart: Gen.6:6; 8:1; Hos.11:8
spirit: Gen.1:2; 1Cor.2:11
soul: Isa.1:14; 42:1; Jer.5:9, 29

YHWH created man in "His image", if He was just an invisible Spirit, then man would be so too.

Shalom,

Image amd likeness doesn't always mean that the person is an exact replica though. We have many of the attributes of Yahueh but not all of them. For instance Yahueh fills all thing.

As far as the Old and New Testament they have equal weight and the old tired arguement about the Greek is being aptly proven wroing in that an Aramaic text as well as some Hebrew originals are coming to light in our time.They say the same thing as the Greek in most cases and there is only a slight variation in meaning when they are different.

They proclaim that Yahushua is Yahueh just as the Messianic prophecies of the Tanach do. Not the two Yahuehs but the one Yahueh too.

8:22
The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
8:23
I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
8:24
When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
8:25
Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
8:26
While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, F32 nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
8:27
When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass F33 upon the face of the depth:
8:28
When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
8:29
When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
8:30
Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

Compare it with John 1:1-4, 14.

How beings were referred here?

If this being is the Word referred in John 1:1-4, 14, then how could he appear JUST in the 1st century?

JayAr