'... In heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth ...'

This text concerning the heavenly witness is not contained in any Manuscripts written earlier that the Fifth Century, c.e. It is not cited by any of the Greek or early Latin writers, even when the subject they wrote of would naturally have led them to appeal to its authority; therefore, this had been ADDED by the later translators, and is NOT the Inspired Word of Yahweh.

Have there been active conversations between Yahuah and His people?

You also said:
......So what you have been saying is the vessel, image of Yahuah was created at the beginning, but the only Ruwach in that Vessel is Yahuah, and not two separate beings (Ruwachs)in that vessel. Is this correct?

Exodus 31:2-3 See, I have called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah: And 'I have filled him with the "spirit of God"', in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,
Numbers 11:17 And I will come down and talk with thee there: and I will take of the spirit which [is] upon thee, and will put [it] upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with thee, that thou bear [it] not thyself alone.
Numbers 11:25 And YHWH came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that [was] upon him, and gave [it] unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, [that], when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.
Numbers 24:2 And Balaam lifted up his eyes, and he saw Israel abiding [in his tents] according to their tribes; and the spirit of God came upon him.
Numbers 27:18 And YHWH said unto Moses, Take thee Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom [is] the spirit, and lay thine hand upon him;
Judges 3:10 And the Spirit of YHWH came upon him, and he judged Israel, and went out to war: and YHWH delivered Chushanrishathaim king of Mesopotamia into his hand; and his hand prevailed against Chushanrishathaim.
...there are many more verses but I will stop for now.

Didn't YHWH speak with Moses when Moses had the spirit of Elohim upon him?What spirit was upon Moses?...was it different than the spirit which was put upon the seventy elders, Balaam, Joshua and Othniel? Did these men have more than one spirit? From what I understand, you are saying that anyone who has the spirit/ruach of God is God, am I correct in my understanding of what you are saying? Please correct me if I am not.
I would like to say I strongly believe that anyone who has the spirit of Elohim by no means implies they are YHWH.

Greetings.

Study deeper what Ruach is meant for Abba Yahweh and Yahshua's Son. The power,the spirit and compare many translations. The title "Elohim", "Eloah"
when does a Person becomes Elohim, El, Eloah? The translation of these Titles to G-d created much problem of the Superbeings. Review also the figure of speech when these titles are applicable to a certain passages. There are much to gain if we continue to dig deeper rather than arguing without basis of deeper studies.

I like to recommend the the Companion Bible (Dr. Bullinger) Appendix for figure of speech and read some words referred to Ruach. In every verses used in terms of spirit, power, title of El, Elohim, we could have clearer position.

Be sure that the goal of this discussion is not for who ever wins, but whoever have the right and true explanation and which of these views are scriptural.

Thanks for sharing. I love to dig deeper too.

ABYH

Genesis 41;43-44 "And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, I [am] Pharaoh, and without thee shall no man lift up his hand or foot in all the land of Egypt. And he made him to ride in the second chariot which he had; and they cried before him, Bow the knee: and he made him [ruler] over all the land of Egypt.

This in no way implies that Joseph is Pharoah just as YHWH giving His power to Yahushua does not imply that Yahushua is YHWH. Joseph still had to ask Pharoah permission for things just as Yahushua asked things of His Father in prayer:

John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Also, from what I understand, and I may be wrong, Elohim is plural and Eloah is singular. If you have a more clear understanding of this could you explain it to us?

My personal belief is that the Word is YHWH, and that all things were put under his son Yahshua, as he was created by his Father in heaven, and sent here by his Father. I believe the name that Yahshua was given was also of his Father, and therefor Yahshua was made as "The Word OF YHWH", even before he was sent here, as he came in his Fathers name.
[b]I agree
Yahshua came here to make his Father "The Word" known, so that the lost might be saved through him. Yahshua is the mediator, and the door. And the WORD was the Father in him "Holy Spirit". If we obey and follow the words that Yahshua was commanded to speak, then we have obeyed the Father, will have the spirit of the Father in us too.
Otherwise if we believe in Yahshua's name "the Word OF YHWH" we can be saved, for the words that Yahshua spoke was the Father in him, and the doctrine that Yahshua taught was not his own, he was taught by his Father, and he was also commanded by his Father. Yahshua did nothing without the Father. I agree

YHWH is greater than Yahshua. I agree
Yahshua, and even the children of YHWH have the Holy spirit in them, that does not make us YHWH, nor does it make Yahshua YHWH. I agree

We are one within the Word, but we are not the Word. We will be judged by the Word, I agree and we are not to judge. I do not agree because Paul states we are to judge those within the assembly and Yahushua says that judgment is one of the weightier matters of the law and that we are to judge with a righteous judgment We are to obey the Word for we are commanded, and we are to make his name "the everalsting living Word" known to others. For the Word is the breath of life, and the bread that was sent down from heaven. I agree

Those who don't know Yahshuah well know Him as the Son of Elohim only. Those that know him well should know Him as the Father and the Son. For if you ask Yahshuah to show you the Father and if you should know Him well, He will respond, Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me?

John 14:8-9 Philip said to Him, "Master, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us." Yahshuah said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

Yes you will say, "are you saying that I do not know Him well just because I don't know Him as the Father and the Son? This is absurd"

But as you see Phillip did not know, but should have! And Yahshuah seems to think Phillip's question was a bit absurd, because Phillip had been with Yahshuah all that time. So take it up with Yahshuah and ask him to show you the Father and He will say again but only if you should know him well, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known My Father?" NO, He said Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me?

This means we have to teach these scripture along with the other scriptures. These scriptures do not do away with the scriptures where Yahshuah speaks of his Father, nor does those scriptures do away with Yahshuah stating what He did.

We must teach that Yahshuah said He was the Son and we must teach His reply to Phillip who asked show us the Father.

"Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father;

Shalom and Yahuah bless you!!

John 5:12 Man who said to you, ‘Take up your bed and walk’?” 13But the one who was healed did not know who it was, for had moved away, a crowd being in that place. 14Afterward found him in the Set- apart Place, and said to him, “See, you have been made well. Sin no more,o so that no worse matter befalls you.” 15The man went away, and told the Yehudim that it was who made him well. 16And because of this the Yehudim perse- cuted , and were seeking to kill Him, because He was doing these healings on the Sabbath. 17But answered them, “My Father works until now, and I work.” 18Because of this, then, the Yehudim were seeking all the more to kill Him, ‘because not only was He breaking the Sabbath, but He also called Elohim His own Father, making Himself equal with Elohim.’ 19Therefore responded and said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son is able to do none at all by Himself, but only that which He sees the Father doing, because whatever He does, the Son also likewise does. 20“For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all that He Himself does. And greater works than these He is going to show Him, in order that you marvel. 21“For as the Father raises the dead and makes alive, even so the Son makes alive whom He wishes. 22“For the Father judges no one, but has given all the judgment to the Son, 23that all should value the Son even as they value the Father. He who does not value the Son does not value the Father who sent Him. 24“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me possesses everlasting life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.25“Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of Elohim. And those having heard shall live. 26“For as the Father possesses life in Himself, so He gave also to the Son to pos- sess life in Himself,

John 8-9."heard that they had cast him out, and when He had found him, He said to him, “Do you believe in the Son of Elohim?” 36He answered and said, “Who is He, Master, that I might believe in Him?” 37And said to him, “You have both seen Him and He who speaks with you is He.” 38And he said, “Master, I believe,” and bowed before Him. 39And said, “For judgment I have come into this world, that those not seeing might see, and those seeing might become blind.” 40And those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these words, and said to Him, “Are we blind, too?” 41 said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin, but now you say, ‘We see,’ therefore your sin remains
36“If, then, the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed. 37“I know that you are the seed of Abra- ham, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38“I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have heard from your father.” 39They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40“But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has spoken to you the truth which I heard from Elohim. Abraham did not do this. 41“You do the works of your father.” Then they said to Him, “We were not born of whoring, we have one Father: Elohim.” 42 said to them, “If Elohim were your Father, you would love Me, for I came forth from Elohim, and am here. For I have not come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43“Why do you not know what I say? Because you are unable to hear My Word. 44“You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you wish to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has not stood in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks of his own, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45“And because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me. 46“Who of you proves Me wrong con- cerning sin? And if I speak the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47“He who is of Elohim hears the Words of Elohim, therefore you do not hear because you are not of Elohim.” 48The Yehudim answered and said to Him, “Do we not say well that You are a Shomeronite and have a demon?” 49 answered, “I do not have a demon, but I value My Father, and you do not value Me

The reasons that Yahshua was impaled on the Tree because the Jews thought He had 1)Broken the Sabbath b)He blasphemed Yahweh by calling the Elohim His Father, and accepting that He is the Son of Elohim.

In other words, Jews who donot believed Yahshua as the Son of Yahweh, and was with Yahweh during the Old Testament, as He was the Word of Yahweh, the Voice of Yahweh, the Representation of the Father to the people, the image of Invisible Elohim, for None has ever heard, seen, talk with the Father (except Him) delivered Him to Death. The Jews were the pushers of His Death while the Gentile Romans were the accomplished. So come to think about these things.

This is very brilliant discussion . I want to extend my thanks to Yahweh's witnesses of these and the rest of those who believes the Pre-Existence of the Son. The proofs are many, even Yahshua told the Jews about Abraham, Solomon of his glory, about the wickedness of their ancient fathers , he described the attitude of Satan, he foretold the resurrection of all dead in the coming great Day. How come Yahshua knew all these things?Was it not because He was the creator of all these humankind with His Father's given authority as the WORD?

Satan's attitude was to demean Yahshua, tempt Him, and even proposed to give the whole glory of the world, if Yahshua will worship him.Could you imagine how the owner of the Univese was tempted, as if he owns the things he is giving to Yahshua! So we as the Body of Yahshua whom He will give the inheritance will be tempted the same, but we Have Him to be our Mediator.

James 2:9, the demons believe Yahweh but are trembling. You can see that satan cannot approach the Father, because he knew and he trembles, so who talked with satan during Job's time? If we do the same attitude of Satan, treating Yahshua as ordinary man, then we are of the same attitude of the Jews whom Yahshua did pronounced to be the children of evil generation whose father was and is satan.

Brethren let us consider one another, let the attitude of Yahshua be in us.Phil 2:1-3.let us not strive to be equal with Yahshua by calling ourselves as Great Treacher from heaven, let us acknowlege these, that Yahshua is the head of every man, and the head of every woman is her husband, as Yahshua did not strive to be equal with His Father. let us not demean Yahshua as satan did.Respect and Obey them that rules over you
, for in them Yahweh is pleased.

Thanks for sharing.

ABYH

I personally will be examining what has been stated here concerning this position. I hope you all are willing to do the same with the opposing position.

To make a quick comment concerning the issue of Yahshua knowing certain things about Abraham, Satan, etc. This in itself does not prove he was creator. The prophets of old were given information concerning things that they did not personally know about as well. Eliyah, Nathan, Ezekiel, etc.

With Eliyah he personally did not know about Ahab's situation with the vineyard but he was able to tell Ahab about it because it was given him from Elohim. Nathan told David about his adultery though he personally did not witness it. Ezekiel was given a vision in which he saw things that others were doing (men bowing toward the sun, women worshipping in the groves, etc.) These things he could have easily went to the people with. They would have been surprise seeing how he did not have regular eyewitness knowledge of these events but was shown by Elohim.

Col 1:15
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Col 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD (not meant as yelling just as hi-lited words); that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Heb 12:23
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Note: These passages are all written by the same author, the question is what did (Paul) mean by firstborn of all every creature.

The reasons that Yahshua was impaled on the Tree because the Jews thought He had 1)Broken the Sabbath b)He blasphemed Yahweh by calling the Elohim His Father, and accepting that He is the Son of Elohim.

In other words, Jews who donot believed Yahshua as the Son of Yahweh, and was with Yahweh during the Old Testament, as He was the Word of Yahweh, the Voice of Yahweh, the Representation of the Father to the people, the image of Invisible Elohim, for None has ever heard, seen, talk with the Father (except Him) delivered Him to Death. The Jews were the pushers of His Death while the Gentile Romans were the accomplished. So come to think about these things.

Josyau: I would question the above thesis on Scriptures. The Jews rejected him being the Mashiach and being the son of Elohim. They went insane when he said he would come on the right hand of power. Nowhere are the Jews told that they are in error for not understanding the idea that Yahshua was in the OT. Nowhere in Scripture do we see the Jews having contention with Yahshua for his claiming to be in the OT. We don't see the Jews making any statements about not understanding Yahshua as being in the OT. John 8:58 does not deal with the idea that he preexisted literally in the OT (I will not post reasons as the Shema Alliance and others sites have lengthy discussions on this passage as well as the book "Doctrine of Trinity" by Charles Hunting.

Could you imagine how the owner of the Univese was tempted, as if he owns the things he is giving to Yahshua!

Josyau: In Revelation Elohim is the one mentioned as being creator of everything. Yahshua is not mentioned as having anything to do with it. Colossians and Phillipians should be reexamined with the understanding of the words "Dia" and "En" which are translated "through" and "by" seeming to make Yahshua apart of the creation process.

James 2:9, the demons believe Yahweh but are trembling. You can see that satan cannot approach the Father, because he knew and he trembles, so who talked with satan during Job's time? If we do the same attitude of Satan, treating Yahshua as ordinary man, then we are of the same attitude of the Jews whom Yahshua did pronounced to be the children of evil generation whose father was and is satan.

Josyau: This logic is not proven from Scriptures itself. If Satan is to afraid to approach Elohim equals that it was Yahshua who he spoke to in Job. How is it then that he even dared to rise up against Elohim to challenge His throne to begin with? Obviously Satan knew just how powerful,mighty, terrible, etc. Elohim was then, what has changed so that he would not simply speak to him?

Secondly, even in this life people put on a show as they are truly afraid of something but pretend that they are not. People approach situations all the time as if they are big and bad. People also approach other people (that within they are scared off) but talk all kind of talk (huff and puff) to anyway.

Thirdly, I would reject the notion that those who treat Yahshua as a ordinary man (ordinary only in the sense of being a full human not preexisted, though he is more than just a man as he is Mashiach, King and High Priest, Master over all). So I hope the statement is not directed against those who may not hold to Meshiach preexisting are being G-d in a trinitarian sense. He is indeed an Elohim in the same sense that Moses and the judges of Israel were but not in the co-equal or co-eternal sense that Elohim was.

You can also check out this site along with the Shema Alliance www.yhwhnissi.com/fallingaway.html

Enough said from me.

Where is everyone getting this understanding? It sounds like a wonderful logic to say that:

A:No one can see G-d
B:Children of Israel had something appear to them
C:That must equal Yahshua was the person A+B=C

From "Falling Away"

Did YHWH ever say in the Torah, Prophets and Writings that he would appear in a human body to mankind, so to prepare to expect something he once forbade? Not to my knowledge. Did he at any time forbid them to think of him with a human form? YES! He expressly forbade them through Moses never to make a graven image in the likeness of male or female, or to try to give Him a human form. With that warning in their minds, can any Jew ever be expected to accept that YHWH became a man, and that we are to worship him in the image of a man? I'm not even Jewish, and the idea just sends shivers up my spine! YHWH alone is to be worshipped. That is the truth that resounds throughout the entire Bible!

Please read the following passages carefully:

Deu 4:15 Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that YHWH spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire:
Deu 4:16 Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,
Deu 4:17 The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air,
Deu 4:18 The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth:
Deu 4:19 And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which YHWH thy Elohim hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.

I again don't see nowhere in the OT or NT that Yahshua is mentioned as being the one used to appear to the people in YHWH's stead. I am seeing a lot of formula's being put together and scriptures (that do not state of themselves the idea being proposed) to come to this conclusion that Yahshua did indeed exist in the OT. Why does not Yahshua or Shaul deal with this subject to any extent seeing how it would have been a new thing with the Jews and with the new believers?

Quite an interesting thread, and much of that which is usual, when the "creation" of the Logos is spoken of. It is a good thing for us to look into the Greek "prototokos," or first-born, as is used here, speaking of Yeshua: "Who is the image of the invisible Yahweh, the firstborn of every creature" (Colossians 1: 15).

Now, it would be very good of us to look into the Septuagint, for this Greek word, prototokos, is used for Ephraim, even though Manasseh was truly the firstborn of Joseph. Remember when Joseph brought his father, Israel, to bless the boys. Although Ephraim was obviously the firstborn [first begotten], Israel spoke of Manasseh as being the firstborn of Joseph's progeny, so here and the same occurs when Yahweh is discussing Ishmael and Isaac, for Yahweh calls Isaac, Abraham' prototokos, we see that the Greek word prototokos, could mean something entirely different, even the word, "unique," for unique would be a much better description of Yeshua in every way! Who among the other children of Yahweh, is like Mashiach?

So, using this prototokos, literally proves the exact opposite of what the Arian believers are saying it does regarding Yeshua. All we are able to see here, with honest scholarship, is that Yeshua is called the firstborn, because He is that Son Who is unique, for there is none like Him.

Now, another error is spoken about the Greek word ar khay', meaning the beginning, and most often used to show that Yeshua was the first created Being of Father Yahweh: "These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of Yahweh" (Revelation 3: 14). Again, those who use this as a pretence concerning the fact? that Yeshua was made, created, or came forth [as in being created], by Father Yahweh, haven't bothered to look into the other true meanings of that Greek word. Ar khay' can also mean: "the person or thing that commences; the first person or thing in a series, and also, leader!" When the KJV was translated into English, any one of these meanings of the Greek ar khay' could have been used, as in saying, "These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, that One who began [commenced] the creation of Yahweh," and this would have been more correct to those of us [and there are hundrends of millions of us], who believe that Yeshua is Yahweh!

Just my two cents on the matter! About the Trinity, one must understand that the Papal System's trinity, speaks about there being only one G-d, composed of Three Persons. If that were the case, then if anything happens to any one of the three, then G-d is dead? This is not my idea of the G-dhed, although I believe that there are most definitely Three, and that each has the same desires and character, and their plans for creation is that the Rulership of the Universe, will always be Agape, which will be the case everywhere, after sin and sinners are finally eliminated from the Universe!