quote:

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Originally posted by Lynn:
Shalom Trooper,

Not sure who you were addressing your post to, so I will give it my best reply.
However I think we already went over most of this before.

You wrote:[b] Isa 44:24 Thus saith Yahuah, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am Yahuah that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

My Responce: All things were put under Yahshua by the name "authority" given to him of his Father whom created him. Yahshua is a part of his Father and the first born of all creation. Yahshua made it very clear that he did nothing of himself, and several scriptures show that they work together. The authority - power that Yahshua has, is of the Father in him.

[/B]

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Hi Lynn

Since you are posting to me again, can you go back to the last three questions I asked and answer them. I am sure you know what they are. Or just tell me you not interested. I will get to each point you made in your last post to me, one point at a time.

Now for this post and 1st point.

Did Yahuah and Yahshuah work together (as you say) when Yahuah (please note what He said) stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;? Or was it Yahuah alone and by Himself?

Shalom

Churchill on mankind..."Man will often stumble over the Truth, but then He will pick himself up and continue on".
Show me ONE prerequisite for your salvation that includes believing that Yeshua is G-d. And I will show you scripture that forbids it. "Thou shalt have No OTHER G-ds before Me, [with Me or Above Me] I am G-d and the is NO OTHER, I alone am G-d".

This scripture [following]you guys used is a fabrication. Exactley what we have been telling you about. The original undoctored scripture says "HE was manifested in the flesh", NOT G-d OR Elohym. Whoever posted this sould be ashamed of themselves. You are propagating a false premise. Who was manifest? 'THE MYSTERY OF godliness". godliness is not capitalized, it is what we all should have, Greek "eusebeia" godliness....means reverence toward G-d. The mystery of godliness is G-d having reverence towards Himself? Come on now!!Look at this twisting of WORDS. Of course He was manifest in the Flesh, so am I. Skin and Bone. And can He not send you or me into the world. Your King James keeps you all tied to your Mother, the catholic church.

1 Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of righteousess: Elohim was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.

Read this with the proper translation."And without controversy great is the mystery of "eusebeia" reverence toward G-d, piety: He [Yeshua] was manifested in the flesh,"

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Originally posted by RichieMaGoo:
I have posted this question on several forums, whenever this issue comes up:

If Yahushua is not Elohim, then how can His blood atone for our sins? If He were just a man, and lived a sinless life, then He would have merely not incurred the death penalty upon Himself- how would that atone for the sins of millions of people?

Those of you who dont believe that Yahushua is El, may as well just convert to the religion of Judaism......as a mere man can not save you from your sins. -and Messiah will do you know good if you deny the very thing about Him that atones for your sins.

Think about it.

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Hmmm......(smile). This brings us to another point.
We need to understand what Atonement or Salvation is, and what it is not. We need to establish what sin and sinner is, why the need for salvation. What is life and what is death? Why did Yahshuah die? In short what the problem is and the solution for it.

To summarize the grand concept of salvation is not easy due to the many crucial thought concepts, which the enemy of souls has sown and they could not understand his speech.
Salvation is benevolent. Salvation is from sin. Sin is whatever is not of faith. Faith is, trusting Yahweh in so that I receive his judgment as mine. In this manner his righteousness is mine. Yahweh's righteousness is based on faith. Yahweh's righteousness is full of grace, mercy, goodwill, and longsuffering. Yahweh's righteousness is life giving. It enobles, nurtures, and lifts ever higher and higher. It is everlasting as the life he gives is. Yahweh's righteousness delights to forgive transgression and sin and iniquity (those who oppose themselves against Yahweh) and to save them from their folly, sin, their righteousness, death. It is the gift of Yahweh. It is his glory.

Sin is fall from faith, that is: rejection of Yahweh's judgment and assertion of ones own judgment. This by nature is and can only be opposed to Yahweh's judgment. In this manner self-righteousness is established. Sin therefore is a righteousness, which has established itself in opposition to Yahweh, is at enmity with Yahweh and wars against Yahweh. This righteousness is legalistic in nature; that is, it is accusative and condemns others in order to self-justify. This righteousness, Sin, is graceless, merciless, self-seeking. It is debasing, demeaning and destructive. The wages of this righteousness is death. It thinks that the ultimate righteousness is reached when a transgressor is brought to 'justice' and full payment is made in death. It is the curse of the law.

Satan is the author of sin, self-righteousness. Sin originated in heaven, and it originated there because there was one who turned from faith in Yahweh to himself. Satan broke the relationship of faith in Yahweh and became his own source. He espoused in himself the legalistic righteousness which judges on the outward (actions) and not the inward (spirit). To justify himself he has to oppose Yahweh. When man listened to him he became partaker of that same righteousness.

'For all have sinned and come short of the glory of Yahweh'.

Salvation is not legalistic. Salvation is not from penalty of Yahweh's law.
Let us consider the atonement doctrine commonly held and espoused in the crucial thought concepts of 'Substitute' and 'Risk'. But these are hinged in the doctrine, for the question remains as to why a Substitute and Risk is necessary. There are also crucial thought concepts like 'Penalty', and 'Satisfying the demands of Yahweh's righteousness'.
In order that we arrive to truth and not presupposed understanding, we need to carefully examine our comprehension/thought. One principle that should be an early warning sign is if we use vocabulary that is not in the scripture. Sometimes the expression may be a summary of many ideas. Then we must examine whether the contents of these ideas are consistent with the bible.
Please note that none of the above words are found in the scripture. The reader is invited to check the Strong's Concordance.
The above words are not found/used in scripture. Yet it is significant to note that they are crucial thought concepts in the doctrines they espouse. In fact, let's think for a moment, without them the doctrines could not exist! Yet they are not in the scriptures?

We need to first state the most commonly held understanding of the atonement doctrine.
In the atonement doctrine, that is commonly held, we have the problem of dealing with sin and man. The problem starts with man having sinned, disobeyed, done a wrong deed, or an imperfect deed. Yahweh now has to deal with man. In Yahweh's righteousness he cannot forgive, and his law requires the penalty of death. This is unavoidable. The conflict that Yahweh has is that he loves man and wants to save him. The solution to the problem is found in Yahweh providing a Substitute sacrifice that has to be equal to Yahweh. There is the necessity of Risk, which is that; the Substitute would also need to live a substitute righteous life, hence the necessity that he could commit sin. This is to prove that the law could be obeyed and that Yahweh did not ask an impossible thing. That is to say that it was possible not to transgress. (In reality this all serves to justify Yahweh and condemn the sinner). In order for the sacrifice to be enough to satisfy, expiate, and appease the penalty, wrath, and righteous requirements of the law immutable, it has to be something equal to that same law or Yahweh demanding it. On the other hand in the order to be able to commit sin, it has to be something equal to man. So we have concepts like fully Yahweh and fully man. There is the need of a sacrifice (body) equal to Yahweh to be slain, which is a predicament since Yahweh cannot die because his body is immortal, and there is also the need for the ability of sin, so we need the mind of man. Since the mind of man is tied to the flesh, there is the need for the human body, but this does not satisfy the sacrifice demand. So what is it that dies and what is it that lived? (It should be noted that the scriptures teach us that Yahshuah had the 'mind of Yahweh' and that he was born of the seed of David according to the flesh - human, carnal flesh (Rom.1;3-4). And, that we are called to have that same mind in this carnal flesh. Phil 2;5. Eph. 3;17-19)

Going past the cross, the sacrifice then takes the office of a priest that stands between man and Yahweh. The man needs to believe that Messiah (the sacrifice) has lived and died as a substitute for him, and must claim that life and sacrifice for himself (for his own account, to be applied to his record). Messiah then pleads the merits of his blood for that man before Yahweh, satisfactorily appeasing the penalty, wrath, and righteous requirements of the law immutable. Now Yahweh can 'forgive' man and 'accept him in the Substitute'. So it is that Yahweh demanded and Yahweh gave. (In this way Messiah becomes the saviour from Yahweh and his demands on man. Horrors!)

While there are many variations to the above most commonly held understanding of the atonement doctrine, it will be seen that they all espouse some or all of the above fundamental principles. These we will now address from the scriptures.

The beginning of the crucial thought concept is in the idea of 'Penalty'. It stems from the presupposed understanding of Genesis 2:17. But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it; for in the day of your eating from it you shall surely die. The presupposition is that this meant that Yahweh would kill Adam as a penalty for disobedience; that the law has such penalties for making wrongs right. Let us stop and consider these two fundamental principles of what is considered to be Yahweh's righteousness.

• That Yahweh has made a law for the purpose that it's transgressors would then be found guilty of transgression and sentenced to death.
• That the law has such penalties for making wrongs right.
  

Let us consider. Is this the kind of relationship that Yahweh had created with Adam? Was Yahweh arbitrarily issuing a command and then vigilantly enforcing "the immutable law"? Is this the way of life in the kingdom of heaven? Is this Yahweh's righteousness? Is Yahweh's righteousness a legalistic righteousness? Is his righteousness a righteousness of the law?
The fundamental problem lies even in this erroneous view and understanding of Yahweh's righteousness.

Is this Yahweh's righteousness? If it is, then Yahweh's righteousness would be of the law, and he would be under the curse. But this is not Yahweh's righteousness! Because the law works wrath (Rom. 4:15)

That very concept is from a sinner's mind: one that is devoid of the knowledge of Yahweh's way, his life, and his righteousness. For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse (Gal.3: 10). Yahweh tells us: "for my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither your ways my ways. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thought higher than your thoughts"
Now the righteousness of Yahweh, without the law, is manifested even the righteousness of Yahweh by faith of Yahshuah Messiah. For all have sinned and come short of the glory of Yahweh. (Rom. 3:21-23) Yahweh's righteousness is not a righteousness of the law but it is a righteousness of faith.
The kind of relationship that Yahweh established when he created man is a benevolent one. Faith was the default relationship in creation. Yahweh counseled and instructed Adam even as a Father his son. The nature of the instruction can easily be seen in the following example: "If you touch that stove you will surely be burned", as opposed to "if you touch that stove I will surely burn you". He gave Adam good knowledge.

The instruction: of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat; for in the day of your eating from it you shall surely die did not mean that Yahweh would have to kill him to satisfy his righteousness. But it meant that Adam would pass from life to death. That he would pass from faith (living by Yahweh's word) to the domain of evil knowledge, which separates man from Yahweh and establishes self as the source and produces a legal righteousness (Sin) that uses the instruction of Yahweh, which was unto life, to produce death. For sin taking occasion by the commandment deceived me and by it slew me. Was then that which is good made death unto me? Yahweh forbid. But sin that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. (Rom. 7:11-13) Messiah has redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us. (Gal.3:13)

Forasmuch then as children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil. And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. (Heb 2:14,15)

We must indeed, each one for himself, ask the question,:
What am I saved from, and, who saves me?
Is your salvation from the 'wages for sin'? Or have you received 'eternal life' - 'the gift of Yahweh' that being dead wherein you were once held, having been 'servants of sin' reaping the 'wages of sin' (the wages that sin pays), have become the servants of righteousness receiving the reward - eternal life. (Rom. ch. 6)
Too many see themselves only saved from the results of committed sinful deeds. (Past, present, future)

Too many think that a 'sinner' is one who simply is 'not perfect'. One, who is perhaps prone to err, and therefore he needs a Saviour who is 'perfect'. Such an understanding of the sin problem does not even come begin to realize the problem.
The scriptures tell us that while we were enemies, we were reconciled to Yahweh...the carnal mind is at enmity with Yahweh.. Let us stop and consider. Who is the enemy of whom?

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Originally posted by AHAVAH:
A futile effort.

Churchill on mankind..."Man will often stumble over the Truth, but then He will pick himself up and continue on".
Show me ONE prerequisite for your salvation that includes believing that Yeshua is G-d. And I will show you scripture that forbids it. "Thou shalt have No OTHER G-ds before Me, [with Me or Above Me] I am G-d and the is NO OTHER, I alone am G-d".

This scripture [following]you guys used is a fabrication. Exactley what we have been telling you about. The original undoctored scripture says "HE was manifested in the flesh", NOT G-d OR Elohym. Whoever posted this sould be ashamed of themselves. You are propagating a false premise. Who was manifest? 'THE MYSTERY OF godliness". godliness is not capitalized, it is what we all should have, Greek "eusebeia" godliness....means reverence toward G-d. The mystery of godliness is G-d having reverence towards Himself? Come on now!!Look at this twisting of WORDS. Of course He was manifest in the Flesh, so am I. Skin and Bone. And can He not send you or me into the world. Your King James keeps you all tied to your Mother, the catholic church.

1 Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of righteousess: Elohim was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.

Read this with the proper translation."And without controversy great is the mystery of "eusebeia" reverence toward G-d, piety: He [Yeshua] was manifested in the flesh,"

There I said it!!!! ..."Man will often stumble over the Truth, but then He will pick himself up and continue on".

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Hi AHAVAH

I see your point, but the context of the scripture is speaking of Elohim.

1 Tim 3:14-16 These things I write to you, though I hope to come to you shortly; but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of Elohim, which is the church of the living Elohim, the pillar and ground of the truth. 16 And without controversy great is the mystery of righteousness:

But there are other scriptures that teach Elohim came in the flesh, so no problem!!

Now remember the Word was in the beginning with Elohim and was Elohim.

John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

And since the One that was manifested in the flesh was Elohim and was Yahshuah, Yahshuah is not only Yahuah too, but he is Elohim.

Shalom

>>>I believe you will not find anywhere in Scriptures that suggest that someone divine or diety must die in order to atone for our sins. Where does this come from? Who set this rule upon Elohim, himself or human concepts? <<<<

What then were the animal sacrifices picturing?

I guess you don't accept the NT as inspired?

You tell me what the animal sacrifices were about- you know what I think they were about.....but if you do not believe that they foreshadowed the work of Yahushua, and the need for his sacrifice, and a physical picture of heavenly events (etc.).....and you certainly don't believe that the death of animals cleansed the offerer of sin- then I don't know what else is left for you to believe.

Glad to hear that your li'l girl is O-K. Reminds me of the time one of my nephews jumped off the top bunk, trying to fly like Superman, and went through the wall!

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Originally posted by josyau:
Maybe I'll comment a little more on certain things brought up but not for long.

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Hello Josyau

Ps 74:2 Remember Your congregation, which You have purchased of old, The tribe of Your inheritance, which You have redeemed--This Mount Zion where You have dwelt.

Rev 13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Acts 20:28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Ruwach HaKodesh has made you overseers, to shepherd the assembly of Elohom which He purchased with His own blood.

What do you think?

Shalom

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Originally posted by Lynn:
Rich,

Then I'm feeling much better. I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. I will change that post.

Sorry it took me so long to reply. My daughter decided to jump off the top of the stairs, and I had to take her to urgent care to get some x-rays. Looked like she broke her foot bad, but she has a small fracture and will be fine in a week or two. Foot was put in a velcro splint and Doctor wrote perscription for crutches.

When she was lying on the ground crying, she said to me "Daddy I'm so sorry, will you please pray for me". I said of course I will, but after I'm done praying can I yell at you? We both smiled at each other and prayed.

She is alseep right now and with no medication.

Blessings,

Lynn

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Glad to hear she is going to be ok!

Shalom

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Originally posted by Lynn:
Shalom Trooper,

You wrote:
[b]Isa 45:18 For thus says Yahuah, Who created the heavens, Who is Elohim, Who formed the earth and made it, Who has established it, Who did not create it in vain, Who formed it to be inhabited: "I am Yahuah, and there is no other.

My responce: Isa 45:12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens; and all their host have I commanded.

However in Gen 1:2 it says within "Let us make man in our image" and in Gen 3:22 it says within "the man has become like one of us".

][/B]

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Hey again

But why does it say in the following scripture that Elohim created man in His OWN image instead of "Their"?

Gen 1:27 So Elohim created man in his own image, in the image of Elohim created he him; male and female created he them.

So in fact man was not created in their image and their likeness, but in HIS image.

Should the following scriptures really read.....??

Gen 1:31 And Elohim saw every thing that they had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day Elohim ended his work which they had made; and they rested on the seventh day from all their work which they had made.

Gen 2:18 And Yahuah Elohim said, It is not good that the man should be alone; We will make him an help meet for him.

Gen 6:7 And Yahuah said, I will destroy man whom We have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that We have made them.

Shalom