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Originally posted by bedeyah:
** THat is why today they still have the custom of leaving a empty seat in a synagogue for elijah.

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I'd like to see someone from a "jewish" background answer this. To my limited knowledge, since Eliyah was taken up in a whirlwind, I think that many believed that maybe he never died and thus would return back at some point it time. This would help explain the meaning for the prophesy of Eliyah to return to the scribes, since the scribes and Pharisees did not accept John (Yah'chanan) the Immersor as being the fullfillment of the Eliyah to come to restore all things. The belief in this legend of him physically returning, does not necessarily equate to reincarnation, which would teach that Eliyah would come back as another person. Throughout the scriptures that teach clearly about death and the resurrection, the scriptures teach that the dead in Messiah are “asleep” until Yah’shua returns. At his “second coming”, the dead in Messiah will be raised from the dead first, then those who are still alive in the faith will also meet Yah’shua in the air. With all of the scriptures that teach that death is similar to being “asleep”, and that those already dead are waiting as if “asleep” until Yah’shua returns, I see no belief or teaching of reincarnation in these scriptures. Not that reincarnation is not possible with Yhwh, all things are possible with Yhwh, but Yhwh says that he will do nothing unless he has first declared his secret to his prophets. I see all of the prophesies pointing to those who have died awaiting until the 1st or 2nd resurrection, with no mention of coming back multiple times as another individual, or in another individual’s body.

To me, it doesn’t mean that the disciples were believing in reincarnation when they asked if the man born blind had sinned, or his parents. Those seemed like the only possibilities to the disciples that the man was born blind, that it could have only been the result caused by someone’s sin. If looked at as a multiple choice question, the first choice for the one being born blind to the disciples probably would have been an obvious "wrong" answer. It is kinda similar to asking in today's society if someone has been born "gay" or not. However, as in many other cases, Yah’shua knew much more and had much more understanding than the disciples. In fact Yah’shua said that neither had sinned, and that the man was born blind so that the works of Yhwh might be made manifest.

The majority of the Pharisees did not even believe that Yah’shua was the Messiah, so are we to take the verse where Yah’shua said do everything the Pharisees say, but don’t follow their hypocritical example, as literal proof that we are to believe every single exact belief of the Pharisees, to the minute detail? No, I believe Yah’shua said this to be taken in a more general sense. The Pharisees still had a lot of wrong teachings, among the wrong teachings were the commandments or ideas of men! Simply because many or some of the Pharisees believed something, didn’t make it true. Yah’shua is the truth and his words were life!

I don’t believe that Yah’shua had a condemning or judgmental attitude whereby he would scold anyone who asked what many might consider “a stupid question”. As long as they had a desire to learn and accept the truth, he was willing to overlook some of the misunderstandings of his disciples. So, it is a very assuming presumption to believe that Yah’shua was agreeing with reincarnation since he did not rebuke the disciples for this question. It is also an assumption that both Yah’shua and his disciples had reincarnation in mind when this question was asked. Nicodemas did ask if a man could be born again in his mother’s womb. This would have been a perfect opportunity for Yah’shua to explain all about reincarnation, since the topic came up, if this was the intended plan of Yhwh. However, Yah’shua’s answer was that a man has to be born of water and of the spirit, with emphasis on the spiritual rebirth, not a physical rebirth. This was not promoting reincarnation. John (Yah’chanan) the baptiser/immerser stated that he wasn’t Eliyah reborn. However, per Yah’shua’s statement, Yah’chanan the immerser was the “Eliyah” to come prophesied as the voice crying out in the wilderness, to prepare the people for Yah’shua..

Personally, I would rather believe the scriptures that clearly speak of the dead in Messiah waiting until they are resurrected when Yah’shua returns, than believe in reincarnation based on presumptions of what the disciples were “thinking” when they asked a question or by using the lack of evidence for condemning a belief as proof of evidence to promote it. Also, don’t forget, Yah’shua set the pattern. He showed us what occurs to us when we are resurrected, since he is the first-born among many brethren. It seemed that Paul/Shaul spent a lot of time just trying to convince some of the brethren that there would even be a resurrection from the dead. So, if you want to go by assumptions and try to read in-between the lines, then I would presume from this that many people of that time simply believed that the grave was peoples' final resting place. Therefore, Shaul and others had to explain about the resurrection, and explain how Yah’shua was resurrected and how that the believers will also be resurrected at his return. I don’t see any explanation of reincarnation in these prophesies and explanations.

Wasn’t it the pagan belief that Nimrod was reincarnated through his son Ninus? Maybe that’s where this reincarnation belief started...By the way bedeyah, are these beliefs some of the new “truths” being taught at the HOY, or are you coming up with all of these “new revelations” on your own? Yisrayl Hawkins would probably love this belief, not only could he say that he is one of the 2 witnesses, he could say that he is “Yah’shua” or "Moses" reincarnated. He couldn’t get much higher in human esteem and worship than that now, could he? What else could he do to get his followers to follow his every whim. If we have been called to follow Yhwh, but choose to live wickedly on this earth now...no worry...just come back reincarnated and make it to obtaining salvation in one of the next times around! Is this what the scriptures say? You have not told us what your scriptural basis for reincarnation is, other than for life. Isn’t that what the resurrections are about? I read about 2 resurrections in Revelation, any other types of accounts seem to be talking about someone coming back from the dead, only to die again and return back to the grave, as Lazareth did. If someone only wants to believe in what they want to believe, they can twist and misuse scriptures out of context to practically support "any" belief.

Yhwh Shalom.

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Originally posted by BarYah:
What's happened, brother? Are your thoughts adrift, or are you just sick to death of having to speak the truth over and over again, with seemingly none listening?

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Neither ... and in fact, there even seems to be an ever-growing list of people who wish I would shut up!

But in any case, I simply had no answer as to what each of Messiah YahuShua's and/or his disciples' specifically-mentioned words might mean, and I do not enter what I call "rhetorical arenas" unless there is a significant reason for doing so:

1) To teach ... and I have nothing significant to say about reincarnation;
2) To learn ... and I have yet to see any true need for reincarnation.

Shalom.

leejosepho@hotmail.com

You are too controversial on other topics to not be intrigued by the issue of reincarnation.

Again I stress, I am neither for or against the idea.

Why does the very thought seem to 'freighten' you?

Yah can do what He wants!!!!!!!!!

And our puny little lives have littlte bearing on the big picture.

My personal "issue" with reincarnation, and my second reason (with the first being that of some of my own simple ignorance) for not "digging in" here is simply as I have shared: I see no purpose for reincarnation, and I see nothing to be gained by any discussion that does not seem (to me, anyway) to magnify Yahuah. And of course, I here mean for that to be heard apart from any judgment of anyone who might say or do otherwise.

In any case, I can honestly say I am not in any way "intrigued by the issue of reincarnation." If I have ever "been here before", I certainly have not even the slightest recollection of that*, and it does not seem to me as if much would have changed, as I "still" nearly drank myself to death this allegedly-next time around!
(*Note: Wanna talk about "de-javu", or however you spell that?! The discussion from my end will likely be brief, but I have heard an interesting theory ...)

Meso, "the very thought" of reincarnation does not in any way 'frighten' me. If that is what was, what is and what will be, then so be it. However, I am pretty convinced that kind of thing -- eternal being -- belongs only to Yahuah, exclusively, and as promised to us.

In any case, we definitely agree, Meso: Yah can do what He wants, and our comparatively "puny little lives", as such, have little if any bearing on the big picture. And so, I would ask, why bother having anyone at all if all are simply being "sent around" again and again and again?

Peace to all ...

Joe/Lee/Yoseph (one, and the same)

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Originally posted by leejosepho:
Hey, Meso, and all ...

In any case, we definitely agree, Meso: Yah can do what He wants, and our comparatively "puny little lives", as such, have little if any bearing on the big picture. And so, I would ask, why bother having anyone at all if all are simply being "sent around" again and again and again?

Peace to all ...

Joe/Lee/Yoseph (one, and the same)

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Greeting's Brother Yoseph,

I don't know the answer to this one either, if it is, or is not, but I do find it intriguing.

The first thing that pops to my mind, a reason for going round and round, or again and again, as you put it, is perhaps it is folly to trust the gift’s of heaven with unlearned dirt. Could be a very dangerous combination, heck, look at what we’ve done to the earth.

Something else that is interesting to take note of is how history seems to repeat itself. Different time, same story. Eerie…

What about how Father always said, “I am not giving you something new, but that which I gave you in the beginning”: or don’t concern yourself with the death of the body, it is a temporary dwelling place, but concern yourself with the death of your soul, it has the potential to achieve immortality/everlasting life.

These are a few of those speculation’s that keep the door to this subject wide open for me. The important question here is, does it make a difference and is there are memory channel that we can tap into? Would that make a difference? I think it would bring many things into perspective. At either rate, I believe the full pouring out of the Spirit of Wisdom, in these latter days, is going to reveal it all, it may not be long.

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Originally posted by bedeyah:
There are two passages if I remember clearly that gives hints of the possiblity of reincarnation and there are rabbincal teachers that believe in reincarnation. I think that the reason that concept is looked down upon is because the minute you hear that word one thinks of a specific religion. hinduism,

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That makes me chuckle. The same thing happens when one says the word 'Female', or 'Mother', you are accused of being part of a pagan cult. It's like saying, "Boo!". The fact is, no one should be passing judgment on matters that they have not thoroughly researched. One is a false witness if they did not witness to the evidence at hand. Going on here-say does not apply. It doesn't matter if we agree, or not: whether we do, or not doesn't change the truth, meaning there is in deed a truth to be found and the whole of it isn't summed up into one little book. All things on this earth are part of HIS creation. There is only one supreme El and all belongs to HIM.

We should all stop looking at things as taboo and evil, then not only contemplate and study the literal meaning of the word evil, but we should do as the little book says, "Buy books of knowledge, store them away and do not sell them, study."

The fact is, what are these things that we are being told is evil and taboo? What is it that everyone is afraid of? Is there anyone here qualified and studied in any of these ancient practices.

The fact is, the truth is like a child's fable book, which is turning myth into history and history into myth.

Father made and named all the stars in the heaven. He said there was not a language that did not know the truth of them. Literally, the stars in heaven are the Torah, who knows how to read it? I will give you a clue. The truth is known in all languages and it is the same for everyone.

We need to realize, the thing that was labled as witch-craft, by the Roman Christian's, during the inquisition's, they murdered many an inocent, holy day keeping families in the name of which-craft. What is it that they strove to cover up?

Everyword that get's a witness bares the power of the word,and most of these words have been used destructively. If we would have listened to our mother's of old, we would have never gone to war. What do all thing's boil down to, what do we need to study? I believe the answer is in the garden, before and after the fall, just within those verses. That is all we need to know to know what direction leads back.

This note is to everyone in general.

SonYah

The 'purpose' for reincarnation; (if there is actuallly a purpose) would be entirely up to Yah. We cannot ever assume, as creatures, any responsibility for our claims! Why? Well its simple: we don't know how we got here (life)....and we don't know when we are going to leave (death)!!!!!!!!

All we know is that someone who we respect/trust/know/etc told us what our name was; and what our heritage was.

His ways are above our ways and His thoughts above our thoughts!!!!

Who are we to question the almighty creator?

He says over and repeatedly in scripture that he will bless whom ever He chooses and curse whom ever, the same.

But what we must be vigilant of is our desire to search for HIM!!!!!!!!!

And in that search we must never be derogatory to a thought/theorey that cannot be dispelled with scriptural truth.

All I am saying is that I have yet to see any one here dispell 'SCRIPTURALLY' the notion of reincarnation. And agaian lee, I am not for, or against it. (There are other issues I deem more important at this tme). But what intrigues me is the 'vehement' opposition to the idea.

I look at it like playing with a wigi board. I know enough not to go there!

Agreed ... and with tongue-in-cheek, I would add that you have inspired me to never again even spell it correctly! So from now on, I will continue to find “no reason to study the possibility of” ... reincantination!
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Meso:

Yes, all purposes are entirely up to Yah. So then, and rhetorically:

Does Yah possibly have a purpose for seemingly “leaving us ignorant”, if He has, concerning reincantination? If so, let us never foolishly attempt to violate that purpose, whatever it might be.

You say “We don't know how we got here (life)....and we don't know when we are going to leave (death)!!!!!!!!”

Whoa, my friend. Three problems in that rhetorical:

1) I believe we *do* know how we got here;
2) “How” we got here and “when” we die are issues not related to each other;
3) “When we die” is a matter unrelated to reincantination.
(Note: Yes, I do understand the reincantinationists arguments with what I have just said.)

You have written, “All we know is that someone who we respect/trust/know/etc told us what our name was; and what our heritage was.”

I hear your point there, but that statement is presumptuously dependent upon the alleged existence of reincantination, thereby rendering it (that statement) far too premature in this discussion’s present state ... or something like that.

You have asked, “Who are we to question the almighty creator?”

We agree, Meso.

You have written, “All I am saying is that I have yet to see any one here dispel 'SCRIPTURALLY' the notion of [reincantination].”

Agreed. But, so what? Neither has anyone so proved it!

You have also said, “But what intrigues me is the 'vehement' opposition to the idea.”

Understood, and personally, I usually listen the least to people who do very much of that kind of thing. However, their “vehemence”, as you might have rightly called it, does not in any way inspire me to automatically believe the vehement one is either wrong or right on the matter of alleged reincantination.

Shalom.

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You have written, “All I am saying is that I have yet to see any one here dispel 'SCRIPTURALLY' the notion of [reincantination].”

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That which disels the thought of reincarnation, is that Scripture is very plain in its instruction as to mankind's manner of eternal life:

"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Yashua Mashiach, even we have believed in Yeshua Mashiach, that we might be justified by the faith of Mashiach, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified" (Galatians 2: 16).

This is but one of many of the words of Holy Writ that tells us that we are justified unto G-d, not by works of righteousness that we might produce, but by having faith in the grace that emanates from the Holy History of Yeshua Mashiach. By our believing His Holy History has been freely given to us, that we might not be in debt to Yahweh for His salvation, but recognize that His free Gift of His unique Son, has mended the rift between mankind and our Creator.

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Originally posted by Amie Li:
Hi KYMAK,

Can you please answer or respond to my post?

Blessings in Yahshua Messiah

Sister Amie

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Your questions are either not Scripturally related or are unrelated to my point.

But these Scriptures might be of interest:

http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/88/6#6

http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/122/8#8

In Yahshua,

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Originally posted by BarYah:
Even the end result of [reincantination] is totally different than that which is promised throughout Scripture, so how one could say this hasn't been proven not to be contrary to Scripture, is beyond me.

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Whatever the alleged "end result of [reincantination]" might be, the fact is that truth itself is never relative, although "proof" certainly is, at least for now, in the sense that all men are at least allegedly "free to believe" as each wills, and nobody can always literally "prove" a differing belief is completely wrong. And as an aside here: It is there we can encounter matters such as "believe all things", and religion.

Overall, the discussion here is for now dependent upon what any one or more of us might rightly or wrongly "believe" is proven by/in Scripture, with the "final proof" for all things yet being just ahead -- either in death, or in life after -- for each one of us.

But as one whose "hope" can at times be a bit too dependent upon mere belief, or "religion", and however Scriptural my own "mere belief", as such, might be, I can well understand why so many of us occasionally want to "prove" something right now.

On another board I frequent, I have some discussion going with a man I believe pretty much knows the truth of Scripture, but he is terrifed by that, and is yet quite defiant of it, likely believing that if enough people just "stick together" in defiance of truth they might somehow yet find relief from judgment.

In any case, one thing that is helping toward trying to dispel his nonsense -- whatever the eventual outcome of such effort either might or might not actually be -- is that I presently try to agree quickly when he says I cannot "prove" one thing or another ... and I of course them remind him that neither can he.

Shalom.

Anyone here feels she/he is a reincarnated person?

I donot, and never experienced such. But I have seen vision in the nights that I was in a certain place and time, in the ancient, or in the future.
Believe it or not, I experienced them many times, in my dreams I saw the place and the people, then after few days I was actually going to that place and I saw the actual place and the happenings I had seen in my dream.

Thanks for sharing.

Sister Ana

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Originally posted by ana_yncaphil:
... in my dreams I saw the place and the people, then after few days I was actually going to that place and I saw the actual place and the happenings I had seen in my dream.

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Sister Ana!

Peace to you.

I occasionally experience something similar, but the "dream" or "vision" or whatever actually takes place just a second or two ahead of the real-life setting I am in when I see it all in that "preview dream" or whatever. And sometimes, that even happens as a dream within a dream while I sleep.

But for sure, none of that has anything to do with reincantination.

Joe

Some deceived people here is making the statement that those who do not believe in reincarnation are "immature fundamentalist christians". That statement only goes to show how deceived they are and the spirit of pride in the deception.

Those who believe in reincarnation believes in a lie, to believe the lie is not a blessing.

2Thess.2:

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called EL, or that is worshipped; so that he as EL sitteth in the temple of EL, shewing himself that he is EL.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the ADONAY shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause ELOHIYM shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

1John2:

21: I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

1John4:

1: Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of YHWH: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Shalom,

YbG.