quote:

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Originally posted by Follower, Sar Shalom:
Originally posted by bedeyah:
** THat is why today they still have the custom of leaving a empty seat in a synagogue for elijah.

I'd like to see someone from a "jewish" background answer this. To my limited knowledge, since Eliyah was taken up in a whirlwind, I think that many believed that maybe he never died and thus would return back at some point it time. This would help explain the meaning for the prophesy of Eliyah to return to the scribes, since the scribes and Pharisees did not accept John (Yah'chanan) the Immersor as being the fullfillment of the Eliyah to come to restore all things. The belief in this legend of him physically returning, does not necessarily equate to reincarnation, which would teach that Eliyah would come back as another person.

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There are several Jewish thoughts on this. Some based on the scriptures themselves and some from the mystics (i.e. Kabbalists and Zoharists). I will list them.

• There is one view that Eliyahu as you mentioned did not die like everyone has in history. It is believed that he was for lack of a better word "translated" by The Creator, blessed is He. This means that when he was taken in the world-wind that Elohim, placed Eliyahu somewhere beyond the physically realm and that he did not die. This is basic reason for the extra seat. In this view he never died so this is not a re-incarnation issue. As far as why some Perushim (Pharisees), notice I said some and not all, felt that Yokhanan (John) was Eliyahu because Yokhanan came from the desert, the same place that some people went looking for Eliyahu when he was taken up.
• There are some kabbalists and zoharists (mystics) that believe in a form of re-incarnation, but not like what is being discussed so far. Their belief is that there was a Jewish soul as they would call it that existed before the creation of the earth and before the creation of the Torah. They believe that this collective soul(s) in a since was present at Sinai which is why every Yisreali and Jew is responsible for the Torah. Under this view for the 600,000 whom heard and accepted the Torah there were Yisraeli and Jewish souls there that would appear throughout the history of time. So basically, this soul(s) passes throughout the generations of Yisraelis and Jews and at times if something happens that forces a Yisraeli or Jew to give up his/her faith that this sould can return in one of their descendents. This school of thought beleives that this soul comes through a Jewish mother, and the tribe designation comes from the father. Now here is the kicker, this schools only believes in this form of "re-incarnation" for Jews. They don't believe it takes place for non-Yisraelis or non-Jews. This also becomes a problem if the mother is not-Jewish which is why in modern times in legal terms a person is considered Jewish if their mother is Jewish, and even more Jewish if all the mothers in their line were Jewish.
  

The IMPORTANT thing to remember that in this MYSTIC view this kind of re-incarnation only exists for Benei Yisrael (i.e. those descended from the people that were on Mount Sinai when the Torah was given.) They don't believe this exists for non-Benei Yisrael.

Now it must be remembered that this mystic view has only been around in the complete form I mentioned for about 500 years or less. Also, there were/are Jews who against the mystic views such as Zohar and Kabbalah. Those against them fealt that they were pagan in origin and that they did not reflect the true intent of the Torah.

Now as a side note, I don't hold the mystic view. I do believe that Elohim, blessed is He, keeps track of things and that He awakens whom He will when He will if there is a break. Hold to the first view that Eliyahu did not die, and at the same time the prophecy based on what Yeshua` Ha-Mashi'ahh said was represented by Yohhanan the Immerser whom was a prophet like Eliyahu, but was not Eliyahu in the flesh. If I am wrong may Elohim correct me.

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Eloah immakhem,

Shimson bar-Tzadoq

Perhaps the model of reincarnation as defined by other religions is fallous. But this does not take away from the possible reality of the notion.

"To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them" (Isa.8:20).

The Scriptures clearly commands us to prove all things (Rom.12:2, 1Thess.5:21) and warns us not to be believe every spirit (1John4:1), love believeth all things (1Cor.13:7) which are true (Phil.4:8) because it rejoices in it (1Cor.13:6), but it hates unrighteousness (Heb.1:9), which includes lying and falsehood (Eph.4:25,1John2:21).

Those who believe a lie are cursed, not blessed, by YHWH.

"Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause ELOHIYM shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness" (2Thess.2:9-12).

Shalom,

YbG.

quote:

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Originally posted by Yahchov:
Unless you can prove your point/s by Scripture (which interpret other Scripture) then your point/s are proven to be false. And you obey not the Truth but unrighteousness.

"To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them" (Isa.8:20)...

Shalom,

YbG.

[This message has been edited by Yahchov (edited 12-08-2003).]

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Here's another point: Amos 3:7, "Surely Yhwh Almighty does nothing Unless He reveals His secret counsel To His servants the prophets."

If reincarnation is part of our heritage, then to what prophets and what accompanying secret counsel has been revealed concerning this?

Therefore, the burden of proof has to come from the law, the testimony and prophets. If there is no clear evidence in all of this, why endorse it? Why emphasize doctrines that are not emphasized by Yah'shua or the prophets who told us if we want to have eternal life, keep the commandments and be willing to sell all that we have and give to the poor? Yah'shua's answer to the lawyer wasn't to keep being reincarnated until you can get it right. When a righteous man turns from his righteous ways unto evil ways and idolatry, all of his righteousness will be forgotten and he will be considered the same as a heathen at the time of judgement.

Reincarnation teaches the same lie that the adversary deceived chawah (eve) in the garden of eden with, that she would never die, or that is that she would have an eternal soul. The soul that sins (or lives wickedly), he or she will die, not be reincarnated. That soul will be raised from the dead at the great white-throne judgement. That is what the law and the testimony teaches through the prophetic revealed counsel. At this time, we only have the “earnest” (similar to a token or pass that can be redeemed at a future time) for immortality, as Paul/Shaul said, not as though he had “already” attained it, and he also wrote that “they” (those who had already died in the faith and were “asleep” in Messiah awaiting the resurrection) without us, would not make it.

When we attended the HOY in Abilene, Yisrayl Hawkins and his elders would choose their belief that would uplift themselves and their own efforts, and then find obscure scriptures to twist and change the meanings of the scriptures to support their belief. I hope no one here in this forum follows this same pattern. The original meaning of the scripture may be interpreted a dozen different ways. However, simply because we believe we “think” we may know what the author or person was thinking, that doesn’t make our presumptions correct. The scriptures speak for themselves, and it makes no sense to try to twist the meanings out of context by the use of possible meanings of etymological roots to substantiate our beliefs. Our beliefs should come from the teachings in the scriptures, and we should not be doing as Yisrayl Hawkins has done to try to twist the scriptures to fit our own belief or agenda in order to further convince others of what we believe. All of this said, I do have to admit though that I believe a large portion of the scriptures have been mistranslated. However, I believe that the overall meaning and basic truth is still there if we compare line upon line, here a little and there a little under the direction of prayer and of the Ruach HaKodesh in order to find the harmonious truth. Which prophets can you quote from that prophesied of reincarnation? Notice that I mentioned earlier that I’m not interested in seeing anyone bring out any obscure root word meanings which if we just “twist” the word meanings just a certain way to fit our own beliefs, then maybe it would mean “this” or “that”...

In Rev. 20 verses 4-15 it talks about the resurrections. Notice it states concerning those in the first resurrection in verse 4 that “they came to life and reigned with Messiah for a thousand years” and for those who were not in the first resurrection in verse 5, it states that, “The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed.” How could the prophesies speak of “coming to life” from “the dead” if these people were already alive via reincarnation?

You said : the fact is is that the early disciples, the people and the
Pharisees all believed in it.

I disagree with that. You are assuming many things when you speak for all those of the past that you do not know. I'm not aware of any reincarnation teachings in the scriptures, and I have seen & researched most everything that you and Kymak have provided so far.

As far as I'm concerned, you have both failed to show any evidence to
support your beliefs on this.

There is only one way unto salvation, and the misleading reincarnation things you shared are not of Yahweh.

Blessings to all in Yahshua Messiah [The Word of Yahweh]

My main point was to answer the question of Hebrew 9:27 as I did on page one of this topic. Let's drop it.

In Yahshua,

An Ambassador of Yahweh

I agree with that!

quote:

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Originally posted by KYMAK:
Not even Yahshua could tell his disciples all the mysteries of the Kingdom of Yahweh.

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KYMAK:

Peace to you.

At the moment, I find it impossible to believe YahuShua was not inherently capable of understanding and explaining "all the mysteries of the Kingdom of Yahweh." So ...

Are you sure that is a fact, and if so, why so?

Thank you,

Joe