Peace to you.

The questions I had asked were intended to investigate the validity of a given rhetoric, or belief, and they came from a man who was not already claiming to know their final answers. Personally, I do not enter rhetorical arenas, and so, I usually make a lousy sparring partner.

You had written, “Spirits in prison died without ever having heard the gospel or the need for repentance. They did not commit a sin worthy of death ...”

And of course, “The final judgment is to death or to life.”

Unless you are speaking of some other plane, I am not one who might allegedly die unworthy of death without ever having heard the gospel. And so, reincarnation is simply not needed in my life, as neither would it do anything for you.

I often wonder about what ultimately happens to people who seem to have never heard “the gospel”, and the best I can do when talking with my contemporaries about that is to remind them of the absolute sovereignty of the One who created us, and that He who is righteousness is also completely just.

So then ...

What purpose do you allege reincarnation might hold in Yah’s overall reconciliatory work?

As it was, this thread started off on a wrong note anyways, but rather than just leave it alone like it is, I believe that someone [by Yahweh's grace], should come and bring forth a teaching to set the thing straight. By His grace, I believe this teaching is clear, and can be also filled with agape, the very Essence of Yahweh, the outcome being fruitful for the entire Universe!

Yahweh could have easily left those who have lived here on planet earth, and fought against the wooing of the Holy Spirit, in the grave, never to return - never to resurrect! That is, if our Yahweh were sometimes as we are. He is not like man, and has chosen to allow that everything be perfectly proven, so that none within His Universe will still think evil of Him, had He left these in the graves.

At the end of the Millennium, which the children of Yahweh live in Heaven, reigning with Mashiach for that entire period, Mashiach and His brothers and sisters [us] will move from the Third Heaven, back to this Earth, that has been in a thousand years of utter darkness since Yeshua left this place with His family, a thousand years before. This is absolutely the greatest moving episode that has ever occurred! The New Jerusalem with us all inside it, will be moved by Yeshua from Heaven to this Earth. At the time of our reaching the atmosphere, Yeshua's voice shall bring forth from their graves, the wicked of all the ages in the second resurrection. This is that time then, when Satan "shall be loosed for a little season" (Revelation 20: 3).

He shall content those who have risen with the thought that they will attack the New Jerusalem, and take it by storm, because it should rightfully belong to him, and to those who follow him, both angelic and human sinners. We know not the period of time it will take for the wicked to trample across the earth, and come up aroung the New Jerusalem, and appear about to take it, but just before the call to advance by Satan, Yeshua will cause all to halt, and before the minds eye of all there, the life of Yeshua Mashiach will be seen.

All of those outside the New Jerusalem will see the story of His life, see the story of His second death. All upon seeing this, will fall down before Him, and " . . . every tongue should confess that Yeshua Mashiach is Lord, to the glory of G-d the Father" (Philippians 2: 11). Even Satan and his angels who fell from their first estate, will do this with all of the wicked of humanity, who failed of receiving the righteousness of Mashiach as their own righteousness, learning how to become among the group inside that City New Jerusalem!

But wait! Rather than remain on their faces before Yeshua Mashiach, Satan comes to his feet, and with that same arrogance he presented in heaven and upon the newly made earth seven thousand years before, he bends forward, and calls all the hosts outside the City to follow him to overwhelm all of those in the City, that it become theirs. All follow him!

It is shown here in the plainest manner, that although all of these have sincerely knelt before Yeshua, and each spoken the words above from Philippians, their speech has no effect on their desires - their behavior! Although they all know that Yahweh has done a righteous work, in giving the Saviour to all of mankind, as its Substitute and Surety; although each recognizes he should have listened to that voice of the Spirit which ceaselessly spoke to the mind and heart throughout every day of his sojourn on earth, they will never recant of their love for selfishness! Father Yahweh sends fire down from Heaven, and that fire destroys the wicked angels and humans, and the world is made anew. Sin, and sinners are all consumed and taken out of existence, Yahweh having shown the whole Universe, that although the wicked have spoken to the truth of the righteousness of Yahweh, they still want to have life their way, and because of this consistent sinfulness, they must be destroyed!

this is from the book Of Wisdom
Wisdom chapter 8
19: As a child I was by nature well endowed, and a good soul fell to my lot;
20: or rather, being good, I entered an undefiled body.

matches exactly what the disciples asked

john 9 verse 2

9:2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?

That is clear as day to get rid of the Forefather thing

Fact 1 the Pharisees way before Yahshua and during his time believed in reincarnation

Fact 2 JOHN 9 verse 2 has nothing to do anything with forefathers

Fact 3 Yahshua said who JOHN Was AND asked who did the people think He WAS

Why does believing in the 1st and 2nd resurrection considered to be automatic grounds for believing in reincarnation? Do you believe that some are reincarnated into animals or bugs? What about those that came forth from the graves at Yah’shua’s resurrection? Don’t you believe that they just came alive within their own bodies? Do you believe that the dead in messiah will arise into a new spiritual body? I don’t believe at the resurrection we will be given someone else’s body, but a new spiritual body prepared from Yhwh for us. After Yah’shua’s resurrection, he was still identifiable and was not reincarnated into someone else’s body or into a child. He is the first-born among many brethren, so for those that are in the resurrection, they shall follow the same pattern of spiritual rebirth that he set. Even if Yah’shua knew that some thought that he was Moses or Eliyah come back from the dead, I don’t believe that automatically meant that he was agreeing to reincarnation. He was allowing Yhwh through the Ruach HaKodesh to disclose to the brethren who he was according to his works and fulfilling of prophesy to open up the people’s understanding, and thereby he normally never blatantly told people who he was. I do understand that all things are possible with Yhwh, but I don’t see any scriptural basis or purpose behind reincarnation.

1)Why didnt then Yahshua say that teaching was wrong, If u knew somebody believed in something that is wrong then one would say something, just like everybody is doing on this forum saying that reincarnation is not truth, but for some strange reason yahshua who is your high priest would not even condem that teaching but yall will. HMMM thats real strange,

2) SO something he didnt believe in he just said nothing about , but he did He said who do people think that I AM, He never said that their way of thinking is wrong. ANd as pertaining to the Pharisees Yahshua agreed more with them he told the people to do what the pharisees say but to not do what they do, the leaving of the pharisees was the hypocrisy which in turn created SIN, YAhshua condemned the hypocrisy of the pharisees pertaining to the law,

3) also to add THe people who were ressurected when yahshua died, that in itself with other ressurection accounts prove that ONE IS NOT APPOINTED TO DIE ONLY ONCE.

4) In the last ressurection will they have the same body, NO , so why do we think we must have the same body in order to be the same person, the body is only a vessel.

quote:

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... far out and wacky stuff [for] which it seems the scriptures have to really be stretched to try to support...[/B]

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Yes, and that is almost always one of the very first things I have learned to watch for whenever any idea or teaching that is new to me comes along. Scripture certainly does include types and shadows and parables and so on in need of revelation before anyone can understand, but obscurity-driven extrapolation does not come from YahSpirit Scripture.

Shalom.

quote:

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Originally posted by bedeyah:

3) also to add THe people who were ressurected when yahshua died, that in itself with other ressurection accounts prove that ONE IS NOT APPOINTED TO DIE ONLY ONCE.

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They were not "resurrected", they rose from the dead. That's a wide difference!

Now, if men are reincarnated, which one of the manifold bodies given man will be judged according to its works on the day of judgment? What about the rich man in Luke 16?

Shalom,

YbG.

PS. Any news from HOY? Their website is reduced with 85% of its content

Do you not understand that both you and I could come together, and we could write thousands of pages of material, all of it false, and demonic, and not one of those things that we write about, was mentioned by Yashua as something that was not to be believed in.

How about the Ouiji boards that are being used by those who know that Satan and his devils are using them to take people captive to the spiritist occultic powers that such a board will trap the users into, and finally, if these continue to come and ask questions, will become possessed by familiar spirits? You may say that those knids of things are covered in Deuteronomy 18 - and you'd be correct, but the actual board game, now if Yashua had used the very words, would He not have caused a great number of people not to have lost their eternal lives by getting fully engrossed in them?

How about the god Baal, from Tanakh. It's easily seen by many/most of us, this is the god that mainline Christianity is following, and had Yahshua only spoken a few more words about the false gods followed by Israel three millennia ago, He would have pointed the finger at something that also would be even now, aiding people to see truth from error, no? Alas, Yahshua did not do that, but what has been done in a general spiritual fashion, is that throughout Scripture, we have been given the ability by the Spirit of Yahweh, so long as we see His words as brilliant diamonds, that we are ever studying, and digging into the veins of gold and silver which He has provided us between Genesis and Revelation, we can add line unto line, line unto line, and here a little, there a little, and come to the understanding through prayerful study of the Whole of His Word.

Brother bedeyeh, we can never, ever try to make a point, from the lack of something, appearing in Scripture, for that is an erroneous methodology to prove anything by. Remembering there are approximately 1700 names of those who come here to read, and write [although I can't tell you they all come every month or so], it is reasonably obvious to most, that reincarnation is rather of Hinduistic and and Buddhist "salvation by works" systems. Because of this factor [salvation by works], what is dreamed about, is some day [b]making it to that place where we have been separated from the ceaseless new lives, because over the course of them, we have learned enough throughout them all, to work our way, finally to enter unto Brahma/Nirvana, wherein we rest with the gods in ceaseless understanding and togetherness with all that is. Because it is a salvation by works mentality, there is a catch-all if we find ourselves steadily making a total mess of our lives [which is surely the way of all who try to attain rest, by the works of the flesh]. When we can see we are so very far away from being as the gods would have us be, we shrug our shoulders, and keep at it, knowing that we may, in the end of this incarnation/reincarnation, have another kick at the can.

1)THE pharisees beilieved in it and so did the apostle Shaul. ThaT CANNOT BE DENIED. SO Shaul himself didnt condem it. but his followers 1000 of years later will?

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2) SCRIPTURES in John has nothing to do with anything dealing with forefathers. SO what is going to be the next explanation for that passage.

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3)YASHUA did talk about reincarnation which the people believed in and his DISCIPLES but he never condem or told his disciples that reincarnation is wrong but you will. I cant see how that is possible how one can condem something that ones teacher didnt.

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4)NOT one single place does the scripture show that JOHN being elijah is a spiritual concept and not physical one but because of passed on traditions we needed to explain away passages.

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5)IF it wasnt for the church the apocrypha would still be a part of the scriptures matter of fact the original king James of 1611 had the apocrypha in it so why did they remove it? THe same king james that many are still reading.

I myself once was against reincarnation and tried to place my or what I was taught against it to answer the questions of the things I saw, But if you ask yourself the real questions like why didnt yahshua condem a false teaching that was widespread even amongst his followers? You will see that there is only one conclusion. It cant be explained away.
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I just have to say it again, If I was in a room with u brothers and I brought up the topic of reincarnation , immediately I would be told it is wrong, But where did you get that teaching or example from It is definately not your teacher who did not speak ONE word against it. I guess some people know something that yahshua didnt want to say.

quote:

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Originally posted by bedeyah:
... But Not even your head has said one thing against it ...

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Bedeyah:

So? What does that prove?

Where did he speak against abortion?

The thing is most of 'christianity's main stays' are accepted and upheld on this forum by most of the posters.

If the topic of abortion CAME UP I am sure he would have said something about it but it did not so we use from the law that it is against nature and considered under murder.

BUT

THe topic of reincarnation DID COME UP IN his talk with the people and he did not condem it.

I can understand your statement if reincarnation was never mentioned at all by his disciples or in the scriptures but his discples and the people talked about it and it is documented that he did not condem it in the scriptures and was in agreement with it. THeres a difference if something is mentioned or not and abortion is not mentioned but reincarnation is.

as pertaining to the church teachings why did Protestants remove THe apocrypha from the KING james version?

quote:

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Originally posted by bedeyah:
The topic of reincarnation DID COME UP IN his talk with the people and he did not condem it.

I can understand your statement if reincarnation was never mentioned at all by his disciples or in the scriptures but his discples and the people talked about it and it is documented that he did not condem it in the scriptures and was in agreement with it.

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-Where does it explicitly say that in Scripture?

Ever realised that Scripture must interpret Scripture and that you should read all Scripture in their entire context.

I have earlier, two times in this thread asked questions pertaining "reincarnation" and the final judgment. None has answered them. Please check these questions out and give Scriptural references when answering them. Thank you!

quote:

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Originally posted by bedeyah:

...as pertaining to the church teachings why did Protestants remove THe apocrypha from the KING james version?

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-In this regard I agree with you fully. The so called OT "Apocrypha" should be part of the Bible. The answer to your question however lies in the fact that NON-MESSIANIC JEWS removed these books at the concilium at Jamnia ca 120 AD.

Among the Messianic believers, and the early "church" they were not questioned until Jerome and Augustine (who were co-working with non-messianic jews in Jerusalem and were inspired by them regarding the translation of the Bible and its canon) in the 300s. Since then have they been the subject of much contention. Yahshua and the Apostles quotes the OT Apocrypha numerous times. It is no doubt that it was without question part of the Bible of the first believers as much as the other books.

But where in the OT Apocrypha do you find support for reincarnation?

Shalom,

The Hebrew word "Sheol, " refers to the grace or the abode of the dead (Psalm 88:3,5). Through much of the Old Testament period, it was believed that all went one place, whether human or animal (Psalm 49:12,14,20), whether righteous or wicked (Eccl 9:2-3). No one could avoid Sheol (Psalm 49:9; 89:48), which was thought to be down in the lowest parts of the earth (Deut 32:22; 1 Sam 28:11-15; Job 26:5; Psalm 86:13; Isa 7:11; Ezek 31:14-16, 18).

Unlike this world, Sheol is devoid of love, hate, envy, work, thought, knowledge, and wisdom (Eccl 9:6, 10). Descriptions are bleak: There is no light (Job 10:21-22; 17:13; Psalm 88:6, 12; 143:3), no remembrance (Psalm 6:5; 88:12; Eccl 9:5), no praise of YHWH (Psalm 6:5; 30:9; 88:10-12; 115:17; Isa 38:18)—in fact, no sound at all (Psalm 94:17; 115:17). Its inhabitants are weak, trembling shades (Job 26:5; Psalm 88:10-12; Isa 14:9-10) who can never hope to escape from its gates (Job 10:21; 17:13-16; Isa 38:10). Sheol is like a ravenous beast that swallows the living without being sated (Prov 1:12; 27:20; Isa 5:14). Some thought the dead were cut off from YHWH (Psalm 88:3-5; Isa 38:11); while others believed that YHWH's presence reached even to Sheol (Psalm 139:8).

Why didnt Yahshua condem reincarnation in which the people believed in , When he asked them who do the people say that I am? If you dont believe that the people believe in reincarnation then all the outside facts shown to u from JOSEPHUS TO THE APOCRYPHA went straight over ones head or is being ignored purposefully.

and

When his disciples asked him about the blind man , please explain to me WHy someone will ask someone a question with 2 choices to pick from , that will lead to the SAME conclusion, In the assumtion that they were thinking of the sins of the forefathers.

Who sinned the man or his parents that he was born blind? what teaching is that from " the sins of the forefatheres"

I dont want to force anything but I can see as clear as day that all the real facts are being ignored.

so Yahweh shalom

Oh to the other question the pharisees believed in reincarnation and the ressurection.