bedeyah,

You are oppening my eyes brother!!!
Why in the world did the Pharasees ask Yahushua that question? But what is most important... Could the Yhaushua's answer dispell the uncertainty on the matter?

Yahshua answered, "Neither this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of Elohim should be manifest in him."

The Pharisee's in John chapter 9 couldnt have been refering to reincarnation since, reincarntion didn't crop up into small jewish sects until the 8th century. Reincarnation has never been a doctrine of mainline Judaism and does not seem to be typical of most modern Jewish thought. The Karaites were the first Jewish sect to adopt the notion of reincarnation in the eighth century, apparently at least in part in an attempt to account for the suffering of innocent children. The argument was that they must have sinned previous life in order to deserve such hardship. (See John 9 again for Yahshuas explanation) Saadia Gaon called the idea of reincarnation "nonsense and stupidity." The Jewish philosopher Jewish Albo also rejected the idea of the "transmigration of souls" in the fifteenth century.

Haven't been around for awhile, but my O my, this thread has surely taken on a life of its own, and we are still growing!

Just so that I can make a few points against the reincarnation position, I would that we look at the words of Hebrews:

"For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham" (Hebrews 2: 16). Speaking of Yeshua Mashiach here, Shaul is telling this, so that the Hebrews to whom he wrote, would see what it is about the Mashiach, that makes Him the One! And, saying that He took of the same seed as Abraham, tells those who would want to look and see the truth, that Yeshua was actually just like those He came to save, excepting, He did not sin, so much as even in thought. Now, this is the point that's being made, and I would that we would all wonder how many lives did Yeshua have?

If, as Shaul says, Mashiach took of the seed of Abraham, the apostle to the Gentiles, is telling the Hebrews that Yeshua Mashiach is just like us in every way but one - He did no sin! So, He must also be a product of reincarnation, seeing KYMAK teaches that all mankind are such products.

Now, is Mashiach a perfect Mashiach, from the very first life? Or, did He have to live many lives, until He came to be perfected? If being equal in every way but sinning, to you and me being of sinful nature, then He too must have worked His way up through the various lives, until He became perfect!

Sad thought is that had He one single sin in His very first incarnation, He could not be our Saviour. He needed only to be a perfectly sinless One, once, and actually could not be a sinful One, ever, so the life that Yeshua Mashiach lived that lasted thirty-three and one half years, either was the only life He lived, or previous to that life, He lived perfectly sinless lives near ad infinitum. So the question is, why is it that Mashiach only lives one perfect life, and we all must live many lives? Again, the moment someone tries to answer this question, that one takes away all that is written in Scripture about our receiving salvation, not through works [that is, working through meticulously keeping every word of torah for salvation], but as it has been given by the Creator, by our acceptance of the holy history of Mashiach, as our own holy history, for this is the walk of faith.

quote:

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Originally posted by BarYah:
... I would that we would all wonder how many lives did Yeshua have?

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Not me, and to even entertain that thought for the sake of rhetorical argument against it is to entertain evil.

Jim, I understand your intent here, but people like you and me simply must stop loving to hear ourselves talk so much. Reincarnation is nonsense, and there is no mere intellectual discussion or "exchange of ideas" that is going to change toward the truth the mind of anyone who believes otherwise.

Peace to you ...

I am not officially a member of any Church or group other than the one I joined when I was a child of eleven years old. I have visited around but do not now attend anywhere on a regular basis.

A lot of Christians, Jews and Moslems (all believe in the Bible) believe or are open minded about the idea of reincarnation yet because there is so much hostility to it, they simply avoid discussion of it in a general forum. I think a person’s reaction to any controversial issue goes to show their maturity and ability to make intelligent judgments on matters of faith and practice. This discussion has exposed those who can only resort to slanderous accusations, defamation of character, ridicule and heckling rather than reason and logic to maintain their position.

Leejo… has demonstrated an ability to reason dispassionately even though he has expressed a prejudice against the topic of discussion. I greatly commend and appreciate the courage of those others who maintain an open mind and a reasonable attitude about the matter. When I was attending the House of Yahweh in Odessa, TX I found them to be open minded to the idea; they were of the Messianic (Pharisaical) persuasion. I think it was the Sadducees who did not believe in reincarnation, wasn’t it? I think the Essenes (as do the Ambassadors of Yahweh and John’s disciples) also believed it.

I continue to let the Holy Scriptures be my guide in this and all matters of faith and practice.

quote:

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Originally posted by KYMAK:
Rising from the dead (as the Greek word is translated) can be either resurrection or reincarnation ...

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KYMAK:

Peace to you.

In that statement I have quoted, how are the terms "resurrection" and "reincarnation" being defined, or meant to be understood?

See, if somebody who knows no better happens to call resurrection "reincarnation", I see no great need to get all excited about just that. But if "reincarnation" means more than one "end-of-life appointment unto judgement" or whatever, and if that kind of multiplicity was a reality, then Scripture would mention it just as clearly as it mentions resurrection, salvation and any of the many other crucial things we surely *know* to be true.

I certainly will not accuse you of intending to confuse words, but you will find my alleged prejudice can quickly disappear when we pay close attention to the words we use, and to the messages they convey.

So then, how many times will any single individual -- spirit, soul or whatever -- face judgement?

As long as the answer there is one, call that "reincarnation" if you insist. For after all, one's spirit would again be being "put into revived flesh" for his or her one and only judgement, eh?

Which one of the bodies taken by the soul and spirit of man will be judged according to its works then? And what about those who sinned against the Ruach ha Quodesh? And where's the next body for the rich man in Luke 16 to reincarnate into? Seems like the man is stuck where he is.

I would say that the Scriptures does never preach against the Scriptures, but the Scriptures does interpret one another, without taking away a single tittle or jot. I don't personally believe in the raisins-in-the-cake theology or the pick-and-choose religionism. Yet I respect all faiths.

Shalom,

Wished I'd stayed away, and not mentioned anything last time I visited!

Anyway, that's not the case, and so now, I feel I've two people with whom I have to speak!

quote:

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Jim, I understand your intent here, but people like you and me simply must stop loving to hear ourselves talk so much. Reincarnation is nonsense, and there is no mere intellectual discussion or "exchange of ideas" that is going to change toward the truth the mind of anyone who believes otherwise.

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That one who spoke the above words, must'nt compare others with himself ever, for when doing this, he must understand that he speaks of himself as being among those who ". . . [measure] themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, [and they] are not wise" (2Corinthians 10: 12).

The very obvious reason for my speaking as I did, was that when we speak of reincarnation among believers in Yeshua Mashiach, we cannot hold unto this pagan doctrine, and walk in the faith of Yeshua Mashiach at the same time. When we say that Yeshua was perfect, and that He was of the same nature as Abraham, He too must have also been a product of reincarnation [and none should believe that]! Walking by the faith of Mashiach, and reincarnation, cannot mix, and so we either take away the "fact of faith," or we must take away the "ruse of reincarnation." Which will it be for you? For me, I will take away the travesty of reincarnation as a possibility for believers to accept.

As to my speaking just to like to hear myself talk, I would that you understand that I have a very blessed and able vocal ability that Yahweh has given me, but I have yet to "hear" anything that I have written "here." I understand your intent, Joe, but you are totally wrong, both literally and specifically.

quote:

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Originally posted by BarYah:
I would that you understand that I have a very blessed and able vocal ability that Yahweh has given me ...

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Understood, my friend, and although our specific uses of that kind of blessing differ according to His purpose, the same is true here ... and in saying that, there is no comparison or measuring going on. Rather, we each simply have a similar gifting we enjoy using, and we sometimes wittingly or otherwise use it to please ourselves. Or at least, I do ... or have, or whatever.

My point here is that there is no longer time for us to sit around entertaining ourselves and each other with our wordy intellectual exchanges, and that is true no matter the issue being addressed. Many of us have in the past enjoyed moral and philosophical -- religious -- debate and discussion, and we certainly still need to address those kinds of issues amongst ourselves and while trying to help still others. But to ask a rhetorical question about how many lives someone might have is to "bait" someone else into a discussion where one can later hear himself answer his own question, and that kind of thing does not follow the Messiah's own example of immediately and exclusively placing all focus on our Heavenly Father and His truths. And lest anyone think I am here casting stones, please know I have already had to edit this very post to avoid doing that myself.

So then, when someone asks whether Scripture speaks of one thing or another as factual or truthful or righteous and so on, or when someone suggests it does when we already know it does not, let us first simply state the fact of the matter ... then discuss and resolve all ego-, fear-, pride- and/or ignorance-driven objection(s) to the truth.

To the flesh, that kind of approach might seem dry and boring, or some folks might even perceive it to be arrogant and offensive ...

[Question deleted]

Peace to all ...

Joe

quote:

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Originally posted by leejosepho:

KYMAK:

Peace to you.

In that statement I have quoted, how are the terms "resurrection" and "reincarnation" being defined, or meant to be understood?

So then, how many times will any single individual -- spirit, soul or whatever -- face judgement?

Yoe

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Spirits in prison died without ever having heard the gospel or the need for repentance. They did not commit a sin worthy of death. The final judgment is to death or to life.

The meaning of terms is subject to translation from the original languages. Sometimes translators make interpretations based on their own biases. I see that one word in Greek is often translated with several, even dozens of different English words. The same is the case when they translate “resurrection” from the word that means to awake from sleep or death.

Technically resurrection is a permanent reincarnation into an immortal body. It makes sense that such an event would have well been preceded by many lifetimes of experience; but only those who get it right the first time in the flesh (their second estate) by knowing and choosing the way, the truth and the life in Yahshua-ha-Masiac would be qualified for reincarnations prior to the final resurrection.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/1068659796-4177.html

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1068659872-6162.html#2

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/1068659884-6357.html

http://scriptures.lds.org/abr/3/26#26

http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/93/36#36

The Sadducees rejected this idea, while it was accepted by the Pharisees and the Essenes.

Those who reject it now remain faithful the the Catachism of the Catholic Church from a doctrine developed by Chruch Councils hundreds of years ago; this is mainly for babes in Christ. I wish you well.

In Yahshua,
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An Ambassador of Yahweh

AS was stated JOSEPHUS said that the PHarisees believed in Reincarnation , what time period was that? its not the present or even near it is the same time period as yahshua. THAT IS ONE FACT THat nobody has tried to disprove and second

THe scripture i quoted says his, parents and the man ,so why then TWO choices if the sins are from the forefathers of the past, there would be no need to ask for a choice between the man and his parents.IT WOULD FALL AUTOMATICALLY ON HIS PARENTS there would be no need to mention the man.

+Also something else to consider every single day an infinite number of life forms are born and then die on this planet , humans are a minority on this planet, THE SCRIPTURES SHOWS that all life forms have spirits , so then what happens to all those other spirits of the dead animals are they someplace in waiting and waiting for what or are the spirits of animals created for one time period and thats it.

WHO DO MEN SAY THAT I AM ? YAHSHUA asked that question and that question was to the jewish people , he asked if they felt he was a former prophet , that is reincarnation.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------GREAT INFORMATION FROM A WEBSITE I found
The Science of Reincarnation
based on the teachings of
His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada
Founder-Acarya of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness

Reincarnation in Judaism, Christianity, Islam
Hints of reincarnation are also common in the history of Judaism and early Christianity. Information about past and future lives is found throughout the Cabala, which according to many Hebraic scholars represents the hidden wisdom behind the scriptures. In the Zohar, one of the principal Cabalistic texts, it is said, "The souls must reenter the absolute substance whence they have emerged. But to accomplish this, they must develop all the perfections, the germ of which is planted in them; and if they have not fulfilled this condition during one life, they must commence another, a third, and so forth, until they have acquired the condition which fits them for reunion with God." According to the Universal Jewish Encyclopedia, the Hasidic Jews hold similar beliefs.

In the third century A.D., the theologian Origen, one of the fathers of the early Christian Church, and its most accomplished Biblical scholar, wrote, "By some inclination toward evil, certain souls ... come into bodies, first of men; then through their association with the irrational passions, after the allotted span of human life, they are changed into beasts, from which they sink to the level of plants. From this condition they rise again through the same stages and are restored to their heavenly place."

There are many passages in the Bible itself indicating that Christ and his followers were aware of the principle of reincarnation. Once, the disciples of Jesus asked him about the Old Testament prophecy that Elias would reappear on earth. In the Gospel of St. Matthew we read, "And Jesus answered them, Elias shall truly first come, and restore all things. But I say unto you, that Elias is come already, and they knew him not. Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist." In other words, Jesus declared that John the Baptist, who was beheaded by Herod, was a reincarnation of the prophet Elias. In another instance, Jesus and his disciples came across a man blind from birth. The disciples asked Jesus, "Who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?" Regardless who had sinned, Jesus replied, here was a chance to show a work of God. He then cured the man. Now, had the man been born blind for a sin of his own, it must have been a sin done before his birth—that is, in a previous life. And this was a suggestion that Jesus did not dispute.

The Koran says, "And you were dead, and He brought you back to life. And He shall cause you to die, and shall bring you back to life, and in the end shall gather you unto Himself." Among the followers of Islam, the Sufis especially believe that death is no loss, for the immortal soul continually passes through different bodies. Jalalu 'D-Din Rumi, a famous Sufi poet, writes,

I died as a mineral and became a plant,
I died as a plant and rose to animal,
I died as animal and I was man.
Why should I fear? When was I less by dying?
The timeless Vedic scriptures of India confirm that the soul, according to its identification with material nature, takes one of 8,400,000 forms and, once embodied in a certain species of life, evolves automatically from lower to higher forms, ultimately attaining a human body.
Thus, all of the major Western religions—Judaism, Christianity, and Islam—have definite threads of reincarnation throughout the fabric of their teachings, even though the official custodians of dogma ignore or deny them.

Peace to you.

You have written, “Spirits in prison died without ever having heard ...”

1) Do you know that to be a fact?

2) Either way, what part might their being in prison play in all of this?

In essence, you have also stated, “Spirits ... [who] did not commit sin worthy of death [nevertheless] died ...”

3) If those spirits did not have death coming, then why did they die?

Overall, you have at least in part implied, “Spirits ... [who] did not commit sin ... died without ever having heard the gospel or the need for repentance.”

4) If that is so, then what need or purpose would reincarnation serve for them?

Candidly: The issue here is not actually that of reincarnation, but of its alleged need or purpose in the light of the sovereignty and character of the One who created us.

1)people keep translating the question the disciples asked and saying it means the sins of the forefathers but how can it.

2)The apostles did not ask yahshua if it was the sins of the mans forefathers.
AND if they were asking if it was because of the sins of the forefathers it would make no sense to ask a question with TWO choices that would lead to the same thing. Its like duh

Scripture doesn't say a word about those who haven't heard anything about the Law, not sinning! There isn't one person who has been born into this sinful world, who went out of it having grown to the adult stage, without having heard the Voice of the Spirit of Yahweh, speaking to him and bringing into the mind and heart the concept of his not being the god of this world, and this solar system, and galaxy. What is it that David tells us:

"The heavens declare the glory of G-d!" There is far more than Scripture that speaks to there being a Creator, and there is more than the law as in torah, that points out sinfulness or lawlessness. How often does a fella have to speak up from the first and second chapters of the Epistle to the Romans, bringing only a few texts together to cause all of these personal feelings to be thrown down to the ground? Shaul tells us this:

"Because that which may be known of G-d is manifest in them; for G-d hath shewed it unto them. 20: For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and G-dhead; so that they are without excuse:

21: Because that, when they knew G-d, they glorified him not as G-d, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22: Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23: And changed the glory of the uncorruptible G-d into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things [this not only speaks to idolatry, but it tells us that the error of Darwin didn't begin with Darwin, but the thought that mankind has come up through the animal species {evolution of the fittest}, is about as old as the Earth itself].

24: Wherefore G-d also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25: Who changed the truth of G-d into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26: For this cause G-d gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet [this homosexuality too has been with us from the beginning of sin on this planet, and at other times in other places, it has been accepted and marriage between those of the same sex has been sanctioned, and that with the same arguments that are being used today, that it be allowed].
28: And even as they did not like to retain G-d in their knowledge [here, we see that those who have not known the Creator, are in this condition because they and their parents have CHOSEN TO disbelieve], G-d gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29: Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30: Backbiters, haters of G-d, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31: Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them"
(Romans 1: 19-32).

This is very well documented, and the reason why those who know not the Creator are of this mindset, is because they have rejected the conviction of the Holy Spirit! Regardless how far from so-called civilization a people might live, "The heavens declare the glory of Elohim!"

And also, it has been clarified again by Shaul, that the words above are absolutely Scripturally correct:

"For there is no respect of persons with G-d. 12: For as many as have sinned without law [that is, because they have no understanding of torah] shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13: (For not the hearers of the law are just before G-d, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14: For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another) 16: In the day when G-d shall judge the secrets of men by Yeshua Mashiach according to my gospel" (Romans 2: 11-16).

There is no room whatever for any one of us to come up with an argument about anyone having to be taught the truth of Salvation, after the Second Coming, because Scripture clearly teaches that:
1/ Mankind has chosen to take a stance against there being a Creator, and has used stupid carnal reasonings such as evolution, so that they need not stand before a Holy Elohim, and be called to account. All of those who have chosen this, have already chosen death, that is the second death of eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil and his minions!
2/ The Holy Spirit of Yahweh is ever speaking to the hearts and minds of all of those who have been born on this sinful planet, through the stars in the sky, the sun and the moon, for they call out loudly to all mankind.
3/ Even those who have no sight, have an understanding within their beings, that they have not created themselves. All of us are not here at this Website, because of our being "lucky!" We are here, because we have chosen to receive the truth and to walk with the Saviour, that this life will be a blessed thing for us, for our neighbors and for our G-d!

quote:

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Originally posted by leejosepho:
KYMAK:

Peace to you.

In essence, you have also stated, “Spirits ... [who] did not commit sin worthy of death [nevertheless] died ...”

3) If those spirits did not have death coming, then why did they die?

Joe

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Well, your question was about the final judgement; it was to that point, that is, of eternal damnation that I was referring to. Most Christians seem to take Heb. 9:27 as absolute proof that every one must die once but will then face a final judgment and a second death from which there is no return. The first death was a judgment due to their sin, likewise the second. Why have a second judgment?

You are asking many questions which tend to resist my effort to point out the erroroneous translation of Heb. 9:27 which should be translated "was" past tense rather than "is", e.g., "All men WERE destined to die once"; since, Yahshua had power over death and all who believe on him shall never die: "whoever believes in me shall never die" (John 11:26). Every word in Heb.9:27 eeds to be examined.

It appears that in order to justify the assumption that since death is considered normal for professing Christians then Heb. 9:27 should be translated "is" and Yahshua must not be taken literally in Jo. 11:26. Until people are willing to believe Yahshua meant what he said they will surely die.

I have already quoted Scritpture in earlier posts to answer your questions about spirits in prison; it says they were "decieved by the craftiness of men".

In Yahshua's name,
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An Ambassador of Yahweh