17:11 And Yahushua answered and said unto them, EliYah truly shall first come, and restore all things.

17:12 But I say unto you, That EliYah is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

17:13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

Greetings.

: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

re·in·car·na·tion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rn-kär-nshn)
n.
Rebirth of the soul in another body.
A reappearance or revitalization in another form; a new embodiment: “The brownstone had already endured one reincarnation: In the 1940's, it was converted into eight studio apartments” (Ben Lloyd).

I donot think that reincarnation is scriptural. John (Yochanan) was different from EliYah. They were created individually with different genes. The common characteristics was they were the servants of Yahweh to proclaim the coming back of Yahweh's children to Him before the coming of the Savior, and the coming of the Great Judge, Yahshua our coming YahShidkenu.

We are all created uniquely, individually, totally different genes from the other. When Yahshua is called created El from Yahweh, the Elohim of All, the Son is completely the MONOgene (begotten) None like Him ever created to be like an El (Michael).

Many times that what had happened in the ancient will eventually be pictured from many brethren, as righteousness and wickedness keep on repeating as accepted role by any individual. Might be a role of any of these people/brethren, but totally different person, time, genes, places...

Thanks Abba Yahweh to give us the chance to accept the role of the different patriarchs,great men and women in the scripture through the guidance of His righteous spirit. Pitiful for those who turn back to sins and wickedness.Sins and deliberately transgressions make a person foolish and dull. Wisdom are for those who revere Him fully Psalm 111:10.

All our roles we pictured can be a figure of speech in the ancient times. Sometimes we can be a proverb of many actions...huh, or a symbol of the 7 seven assemblies in Asia.

Abba Yahweh bless all through Yahshua, our loving redeemer.

Sister Ana

All that is needed is to look in the origianal language of the Bible using Hebrew and Greek lexicons for all the words translated rising, rise, arose, awake, ressurected etc., from the dead. In most cases the words could be translated reincarnation. The difference is that while reincarnation is to a mortal or temporal body (a new body), resurrection denotes reincarnation or reunion of spirit to the same bodies to immortal conciousness whether for good or evil for eternal joy or eternal misery. Only those who have received the Holy Spirit will have eternal life in the true sense of the word life.

Conciousness is the same as the mind or mental component of the soul which consist of body, mind and spirit as I noted early on.

In Yahshua,
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An Ambassador of Yahweh

quote:

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Originally posted by KYMAK:
... resurrection denotes reincarnation or reunion of spirit to the same bodies to immortal conciousness whether for good or evil ...

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KYMAK:

Peace to you.

Whatever the sources of, and/or definitions of the related words might be, where in Scripture, if at all, and as I suspect not, is the idea of "reunion of spirit" to *any* body "... for ... evil ..." found?

THere is no scripture that says eliyah coming is in a spiritual way.

>>> 1)THe fact that THe pharisees believed in reincarnation and the ressurection. which the pharisees were in the rule and yahshua said to follow their teachings but to not do what they do. <<<

The pharisees' belief of reincarnation is not proof enough that it is the truth. When Yahushua said "to follow the Jews" does this mean the "pharrisee's belief of reincarnation"? By the way, whose Jews was the messiah referring to? Certainly there are other Jews in Israel other than the Pharisees, e.g. The Saducees.

>>> 2)THE fACT that SHaul believed in reincarnation.<<<
>>> 3)THe fact that his disciples believed in reincarnation.<<<

Where is your proof that the disciples believed in reincarnation? That is only a mere assumption. Paul believed in reincarnation? See Hebrews 9:27 "men dies ONLY ONCE".

>>>> 4)THe fact that Yahshua never condem it when the topic came up but actually promoted it.<<<

Yahushua did not comdemned it because reincarnation is not the topic.

>>> 5)THE Jews were looking for ELiyah to come , Not in a spiritual sense, but in a physical sense.
THere is no scripture that says eliyah coming is in a spiritual way.<<<

You got it wrong! The Jews (majority) do not believed in reincarnation. It doesn't mean that if some influencial rabbis believed on it then it is the standard. Most rabbi even condemned it. Eliyah's coming is in spiritual sense. Before Eliyah was taken to heaven "by a whirlwind" he gave double of his spirit to Elisha --- does this mean Elisha is Eliyah?

To believed in reincarnation is to believed that SOUL IS IMMORTAL. The scriptures does say that "if man sin he dies" (Ezk. 18:4). "Dying you shall not die" is the basic teaching of Satan. YHWH told Adam and Eve that if they eat of the forbidden fruit "they shall surely die, but Satan told them the opposite "dying you shall not sure die". This is the very essence of reincarnation. Now what is the purpose of resurrection if man cannot die?

In resurrection "the body joins with the mortal body which become immortal", now if reincarnation in correct, whose body would a man join into? Noticed that when Yahushua was resurrected the disciples saw him in the same body but that body was capable of passing through walls, disappearing and rising on air. Lazarus when "brought back to life" did he took a different body? In reincarntion the spirit enters another body.

Peace.

Not a single one of your statements regarding reincarnation have anything to do with the Bible.

When the topic came up, Yahshua didn't approve of reincarnation.

Yahchanan 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 YAHSHUA answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of EL.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit

And btw you have still not answered my questions concerning reincarnation and the final judgment. The principle of the final judgment proves reincarnation to be the falsehood that it is.

It is also up to you to prove that the Scripture teaches that Eliyah was to come back as another man. Here's a Scripture that proves the opposit of your idea:

Luke 1:17 "And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for YHVH"

YbG.

In case of Eliyahu haNavi, if memory serves there is nothing that ever claims he DIED. It only says he was taken up by Elohim, blessed is He. That is why there were those who went looking for him or his body and never found it. This led to a lot of SPECULATION that Eliyahu was taken to "Olam" a place where The Creator exists in a sense, where time as we know it does not matter. This is why the Taught Ones of Yeshua` asked him "it is said" they were privy to the same legends, based on the prophecy. The same legends exist about Hhanoch (Enosh) that he was "translated" and did not die as normal men/women do.

As a side not "Re-incarnaion" has never been a big Jewish belief. Most ancient Israelis at one time thought when one died they were buried and that was it. That was why there was so much fear of She'ol. The worst nightmare of any Israeli/Jew was that they would be left in She'ol even if they were rightous. The prevailing beleif over time became that there would be a "Resurection." Resurection and Reincarnation are two different concepts.

Also, not all Parushim (Pharisees) agreed on such matters. Being a Parush (Pharisee) didn't mean that you agreed with other Parushim. This can been seen in the Beith Hillel vs. Beith Shammai schools of intrepretation. All you have to do is read the Talmud and you will see there was never an overall prevailing unified opinion on a lot of stuff. Yet, I have yet to see anywhere in the Talmud where a Parush or Rabbi believed in re-incarnation, as the word is used and understood today. Their debates were on the specifics of the resurrection which they believed would only happen once for humanity. Except in the situations where I mentioned before where the actual death was questionable. Yet, Mosheh and Eliyahu are the only two I know of that this is even considered for because ot the reason I gave. Yet, this is not a re-incarnation.

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Eloah immakhem,

quote:

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Originally posted by leejosepho:
KYMAK:

Peace to you.

Whatever the sources of, and/or definitions of the related words might be, where in Scripture, if at all, and as I suspect not, is the idea of "reunion of spirit" to *any* body "... for ... evil ..." found?

Or again, and at the actual root of the matter: What purpose of Yah's would reincarnation - (re)union of a single spirit to (the same) multiple bodies - allegedly serve?

---

I think you will find it here:

http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=sons+of+perdition

Anyway, where do people get the idea that they will be conscious of their misery in Hell?

As for the purpose, I think I gave that earlier. Anyway it will not sink in unless you desire to know and then ask Yahweh in prayer. People have mental blocks that can be overcome no other way than a sincere desire to know – otherwise their mind will simply block it out – like water off of a ducks back. This is like the shield of faith but not the kind of faith that is fearless and “believeth all things”. As Yahshua said, let them hear who have ears to hear.

In Yahshua,

quote:

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Originally posted by bedeyah:
The question asked to nicodemus that would be a good one if reincarnation wasnt believed in as one entering a new body. anyways I see that everyone is ignoring alot of the scriptures and facts and there is no need to go on anymore so yahweh shalom

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-Nope. The fact is that you do not have any arguments or Scriptures for your erroneus opinions. Anyone can claim whatever they want from taking a verse out of context and making what they feel is true out of them. And you ignore all those Scriptures that proves the reincarnation theory totally unscriptural. That's the fact.

No hard feelings as for me though. You may believe whatever you want for me. I would advise you just don't call unscriptural ideas "the Faith".

I recommend a closer Bible study. Let Scripture interpret Scripture.

Isayah 8:20:

To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them

Shalom,

quote:

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Originally posted by KYMAK:
This is like the shield of faith but not the kind of faith that is fearless and “believeth all things”.

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Yes, love "believeth all things". But "all things" in this regard is always understood as all truth - not any lie!

1Cor.13:

4: Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5: Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
6: Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
7: Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
8: Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9: For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10: But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Psalm 119:

89: For ever, ADONAI, thy word is settled in heaven.

John 17:

17: Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Believing lies is another issue:

1John2:

21: I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

1John4:

1: Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of YHWH: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2Thess.2:

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom Adonai shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause YHWH shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Shalom,

quote:

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Originally posted by KYMAK:
I think you will find it here ...

I think I gave that earlier ...

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KYMAK:

Either I will, or I will not, and either you have, or you have not ... and "I think" has nothing to do with any of that!

In one simple sentence, if you can, tell me what in-character purpose of Yah's would allegedly be served by reincarnation ... and maybe my alleged "mental block" will slip away!

Joe

As a side note to this, those of us Jews whom don't follow the Kabbistics or mystic influences we don't buy into that. We see the mystic additions to the Jewish faith as basically paganism.

The following comes from Judaism 101 http://www.jewfaq.com.

Resurrection and Reincarnation

Belief in the eventual resurrection of the dead is a fundamental belief of traditional Judaism. It was a belief that distinguished the Pharisees (intellectual ancestors of Rabbinical Judaism) from the Sadducees. The Sadducees rejected the concept, because it is not explicitly mentioned in the Torah. The Pharisees found the concept implied in certain verses.

Belief in resurrection of the dead is one of Rambam's 13 Principles of Faith. The second blessing of the Shemoneh Esrei prayer, which is recited three times daily, contains several references to resurrection. (Note: the Reform movement, which apparently rejects this belief, has rewritten the second blessing accordingly).

The resurrection of the dead will occur in the messianic age, a time referred to in Hebrew as the Olam Ha-Ba, the World to Come, but that term is also used to refer to the spiritual afterlife. When the messiah comes to initiate the perfect world of peace and prosperity, the righteous dead will be brought back to life and given the opportunity to experience the perfected world that their righteousness helped to create. The wicked dead will not be resurrected.

There are some mystical schools of thought that believe resurrection is not a one-time event, but is an ongoing process. The souls of the righteous are reborn in to continue the ongoing process of tikkun olam, mending of the world. Some sources indicate that reincarnation is a routine process, while others indicate that it only occurs in unusual circumstances, where the soul left unfinished business behind. Belief in reincarnation is also one way to explain the traditional Jewish belief that every Jewish soul in history was present at Sinai and agreed to the covenant with G-d. (Another explanation: that the soul exists before the body, and these unborn souls were present in some form at Sinai). Belief in reincarnation is commonly held by many Chasidic sects, as well as some other mystically-inclined Jews. See, for example Reincarnation Stories from Chasidic Tradition.

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Eloah immakhem,