Thank you for your support,

Please do not provide any futher information about Joe or Daron.

EliYah is already aware of those things, and I promised him that I would not bring them up in his forum.

Please call me tommorrow at my home, as my e-mail is not working.

Shalom in Yahweh,

I find it very interesting that you actually label another poster here as 'cultish'. I don't know if you're aware but most of main stream christianity thinks that the ideas we agree upon here (though they are few ) are also cultish. In fact my family and friends are convinced that I am being deceived by the devil and probably possesed. With this in mind I don't see how you calling yourself Yahwehwitness are not also called cultish!

Perhaps we should not look at each other with physical eyes and try to see the person inside like Yah does. When I read KYMAK's posts I see myself as when I read you're posts also Lee and Daron and EliYah - people searching for truth. I don't think of any of us as cultish but eager for knowledge and understanding. The problem comes when we close our eyes to the truth as KYMAK quoted from the Messiah's words in Matthew 13. We then become suceptible to deceit.

If I were the man I was a few years ago and before I accepted the truth about the sacred names I would consider you all cultish. But with truth and understanding I now know better.

As for the topic of discussion - I have no belief one way or the other but questions... A friend and I was discussing death a few months ago and he shocked me when he said he believes in reincarnation because he is a christian. And as a former christian the thought of reincarnation is unthinkable. But I'll say this it does answer many questions I've always had.

Just curious. Could you post the link of the new age cult awareness groups that show Darons ministry right under the name Dr. Joseph Jeffers "Yahweh's New Kingdom Ministry". Thanks.

You wrote:
I find it very interesting that you actually label another poster here as 'cultish'.

I have already provided many scriptures, proofs and links that you could verify. Reincarnation teachings are very new age and cultish, but Kymak went much further than just that.

#1 KYMAK announced That He was ordained an Ambassador of Yahweh by Dr. Joseph Jeffers.

#2 If you look within KyMak's posts, you will see that he still proclaims himself as that ordained Ambassador of Yahweh to this day. Dr. Joseph Jeffers is "A well recognized long time new age cult leader".

#3 The word Ambassador means: "An official of the highest rank" or "an authorized messenger or representative of the highest rank".

Only Yahshua is the authorized messenger and representative of the highest rank "his Father Yahweh". Yahweh's children are to be as desciples of Yahshua, and Yahshua is our teacher and master. Only Yahshua came in his Fathers name to represent him, and he will represent us before his Father on the last day.

#4 Dr. Joseph Jeffers is found on many cult watch lists. Here is just one of many that you can verify http://www.bereanfaith.com/hrm.php

If you want more links, I can provide them, but take a look at Dr. Joseph Jeffers Web site http://www.yahwehsnewkingdom.com/ and decide for yourself if they are a new age cult.

KyMak's reincarnation teachings and other teachings that he has shared herein are from Dr. Joseph Jeffers teachings. Maybe you should also look at some of the other teachings and staements he has shared in this topic.

If you don't think it's a problem that people who are ordianed and tied into cult movements should be teaching in this forum, and persistently - intentionally teaching against the Word of Yahweh, then you must think that I'm the bad guy for rebuking him, and for not wanting to have fellowship with him in here.

The true children of Yahweh are supossed to support each other, and work together as members of each other, and with desire to keep his places of fellowship/worship clean and Holy.

Shalom in Yahweh,

Brother Yohanan

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mesobaite:
What can we say happended to Lazarus when Messiah rose him from the dead or the man that fell to his death and was arisen by Peter? If they were already dead how many deaths are they entitled to?

---

Great question, Meso, although that would not be reincarnation. To wit:

There are times when I go to sleep, but the phone or whatever or whomever wakes me temporarily before my "slumber" is actually complete ... and when I finally do "arise" from my rest, and in spite of any "interruptions" to it, I still view the time that has passed as but one "slumber" preceding whatever is next.

Point: Lazarus' slumber was interrupted, but he still had only one judgment after he had slept.

Shalom.

I'm not defending KYMAK other than to defend his right to question. Did you really read my post or are you just attacking KYMAK? I said, just by the Yahweh in your user name most people I know would consider you cultish. Also this web site. I'm not picking a fight with you or defending KYMAK I just wish we would stop using words like 'cult' to defend our disbelief on a matter.

This mind set of labels is far more destructive than anyone can imagine. Don't call me anything but a truth seeker. I'll take that 'curse' any day.

I've heard some of the most outlandish concepts on this forum but I never dispel any of them without study. The concept of reincarnation is a hard pill to swallow but like I said earlier how many deaths are we entitled to?

One more question - when in Revelation it says that Yahweh will send EliYah and Moses in the last days who is to say that these won't be the actual literal men themselves? Wouldn't that be a form of reincarnation? Yeah, yeah, I know what maninstream christianity teahces about that - that Eliyah represents prophesy and Moses the ten commandments but why should I beleive them and they don't even call on the name of Yah? Who is to say that Eliyah and Moses themselves won't walk on this earth again?

If reincarnation is a truth it doesn't mean that it is going to be a reality for everyone. Some (or most maybe) may die just once. Again I'm not agreeing with it but I'm not rejecting it either.

lee,

Point well taken.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zarah_Lion:
Amie

Just curious. Could you post the link of the new age cult awareness groups that show Darons ministry right under the name Dr. Joseph Jeffers "Yahweh's New Kingdom Ministry". Thanks.

In Yahshuah
Zarah

---

Shalom Zarah,

I have asked Amie not to bring up Daron or his Web sites / forums again.

Sister Amie used to work with us a couple of years ago, and she was not aware that I have recently spoken with EliYah with my promise not to bring up these past situations or Daron up again in this forum. I will say that everything that Amie said was the truth, and that EliYah has already taken actions towards resolving that matter. http://www.eliyah.com/forum2/Forum10/HTML/001472.html

I hope you all can understand why I do not want to keep those things alive in this forum.

I trust in Yahweh, and know that his truth always prevails.

Brother Yohanan

I have nothing against you. My posts said that Dr. Joseph Jeffers and his Web sites are found on many top cult lists, and that he is recognized as a new age cult leader. A look at his Web site sure confirms that.

Re: Moses & EliYah two witnesses.

I have not studied that for a long time. I thought it was "the spirits" of Enoch and EliYah that the two witnesses would come with. Maybe it was Moshe, but I can remember right now.

Spirits doesn't mean their souls. It could simply mean the same spirits that Enoch and EliYah had in them when they were here, will also be in the two witnesses. Scripture says that Yahweh gives each of his children a certain gifts of his spirits, and scripture says that Elokim has seven spirits. So the way I see it, it might be two spirits of Elokim that are also the same two spirits that Enoch or Moshe and EliYah have. We are all members of the one Holy body. When we are born again, the spirit/s in us are of Yahweh.

Hard to understand, but should be a good study towards learning more truths.

Shalom in Yahweh,

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yahwehwitnesses:
I will say that everything that Amie said was the truth ...

---

Yohanan: The things you and Amie have said about me are lies, even if you happen to believe them to be true.

Nevertheless, peace to you ...

Joe

I was expecting a better reply then that, For two reasons

1) You did not try to disprove the statements that was quoted by JOSEPHUS
2) YOu did not try to disprove the letter I posted that showed that many jews believed in reincarnation
3) You still did not disprove the scripture I quoted, here it is again read it carefully

john 9 verse 2

9:2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?

they asked if the man had sinned which caused him to BE BORN BLIND , WHEN DID THE SIN TAKE PLACE In order for him to be born blind as the disciples believed ?

DID you read it carefully the answer you gave me could have been correct if it was stated as who did sin HIS PARENTS but it says THIS MAN and HIS PARENTS , TWO CHOICES, so please explain to me how THIS MAN can be referring to the sins of his past relatives,

Also why ignore the fact that the pharisees believed in it , and Shaul was one of them, Can u prove that the PHarisees and early jews did not believe in reincarnation?

4)Consider this if you read some of the article it is truth Yahweh said that he was going to send eliyah , not someone who is similar to eliyah, Yahshua said that john was Eliyah, AND Even yahshua asked his disples who do people say that I AM
MATT

16:13 When came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

16:14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, EliYah; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

SO the people felt that he was either John THE BAPTIST who was just killed , ELIYAH ,JEREMIAH ( which yahweh said nothing about) Or some othere Prophet.

So you going to tell me they didnt believe in reincarnation, sorry it is plain as day. AND THE FACT OF the statements of Josephus and early jews and these scriptures prove beyond a doubt that reincarnation was a belief system among the jews.

It is up to you to disprove 1) 2) 3) 4) Yahweh shalom

#1 It was you that suddenly came into the post that I made to Daron before he even had a chance to reply.

#2 It was you that suddenly decided to come into this post, "and totaly off topic", and that started this disruption that was hurled against me. If you had not done so, then none of this would have come about between us once again.

Here is where the disruption started, and where you came into this post off-topic towards me:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote: Originally posted by leejosepho:
Yohanan: Are you aware of how often you switch audiences, subjects and topics within just one post? If you want to talk with a fellow poster, then do that. And when you want to speak to the rest of us, then do that instead. And when you feel compelled to either voice or defend some kind of "position" or whatever, then do that. But as one who can at times be quite a grandstander myself, I would report to you that at least in my own case its overall effect is seldom helpful to anyone.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Confirmation:

#3 Another member even asked you to take your disruption somewhere else, before I even had a chance to reply to you.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote: Originally posted by JayAr:
Lee could you please settle your problem with Yonatan outside this forum. Such discussions are worthless and very disturbing. We are looking only for intelligent and worthy exchange of ideas.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

#4 I have aksed you to forget these things, or to stop posting to me, and you said that you can't.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote: Originally posted by Yahwehwitnesses:
I obide by the Rules and Policies that EliYah has made for all of us that wish to post here with our desire to seek, and share the Word of Yahweh.
Can you please drop this once and for all, or stop posting to me?

Quote: Originally posted by leejosepho:
No, I cannot, for this is about matters of character. To wit:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

#5
Quote: Originally posted by leejosepho:
Yohanan: The things you and Amie have said about me are lies, even if you happen to believe them to be true.

My Reply: Joe I really don't appreciate you proclaiming that I or Sister Amie is the liar in this forum. So howabout we make a deal to put a final end to this matter? since you have refused to drop it, and have refused to stop posting to me with your fruitless efforts?

If I can prove that the following statements that Amie made are true, then howabout you leave this forum, or that you openly applogize to me an Sister Amie?

The following is what Sister Amie had stated:
Let it be known to members of this forum that Lee and has had an outside relationship with Daron [former Trooper] in his own forum for over a year, and that Daron's ministry has attacked several members of this forum over the years. When Yohanan tried to put a stop to it, Daron and Joe teamed up against him. Brother EliYah is apperantly aware of Daron, and also I see that Lee is under current warning.

There are only two ways that I can prove this.

I can either ask EliYah if he would like to be the witness to confirm the above statements as being truths, or I can ask EliYah to give me permission to prove them myself by openly sharing the proofs in his forum . The reason why I must ask Eliyah is because he is aware of the trutht, and because I personally spoke with him and said that I would not willingly bring these past things back up in his forum.

I don't want to be envolved with the repeated disturbances that you and Daron have started in this forum against me and certain others. I did absolutely nothing wrong towards you, Daron or KyMak to deserve any of this. The main reason these fruitless disruptions started a while back, is because Daron snuck back into this forum and came against me and others, and you backed him up in many posts, and even responded for him in some. Now you seem to be trying to finish what Daron started, even though you are under current forum warning status, as you and Daron did have a relationship outside of this forum, and way before any of these problems ever started 9 months ago against me and others here.

I have better things to do in this forum than having to debate with you daily and needing to defend myself, and my ministry against your intentional disruptions. I would have need to contend with these things if you didn't start and cause them between us.

My fellowship purpose of being in this forum is to learn and share the Word of Yahweh, in his truth, love and grace.

Joe, do you agree with my above proposal?, or if not, how would you like this matter to be handled towards final resolve?

Shalom in Yahweh,

Brother Yohahan

You wrote:
1) You did not try to disprove the statements that was quoted by JOSEPHUS.

My Reply:
I did provide many scriptures and my personal thoughts to show that I disagree with reicarnation.

2) YOu did not try to disprove the letter I posted that showed that many jews believed in reincarnation

My Reply:
Many people of all cultures believe in reincarnation, so that's thier own choice. Does being a Jew or being called a Rhabbi mean that you ae saved?

3) You still did not disprove the scripture I quoted, here it is again read it carefully.

My Reply: I and many others have already shared scriptures that I feel do disprove reincarnation. If you want to know more, study the Word and pray that Yahweh gives you more insights of his truth. I have said everything that I wish to say about this reincarnation topic. However if you want to start a post about the two witnesses, I will be glad to learn and share with you.

Shalom in Yahweh,

Brother Yohanan

Peace to you.

You have written, “It was you ... that started this disruption that was hurled against me.”

Yohanan, please try to clearly show:
1) What alleged “disruption” has been hurled against you;
2) What is/was actually being disrupted;
3) Who else is allegedly involved;
4) How I allegedly started the disruption being alleged.

You have written, “Joe I really don't appreciate you proclaiming that I or Sister Amie is the liar in this forum.”

Question: Is that an implication that I am “the liar” here? If so, Yohanan, you are continuing to dig quite a hole for yourself. But either way ...

I have not called either you or Amie a liar. Rather, I have said, “The things you and Amie have said about me are lies, even if you happen to believe them to be true.” For in my mind, you see, one who in either ignorance or mis-belief simply says something s/he happens to believe is true is not truly a liar until s/he ultimately learns the truth of the matter.

Yohanan, you and/or Amie have written the following false statements about me:

1) “You are the only one in this post who is off topic ...”

> I have already made a post showing otherwise, but what would that matter anyway?

2) “... you're once again casting stumbling blocks against me ...”

Please show where I have allegedly ever done that in the past.

3) “... you're ... casting stumbling blocks against me ...”

Please show where I have allegedly done that here recently, and as an aside, please also show where either of us might ever have any “proper cause” to cast any stumbling block against the other anyway, as in contrast to “... casting stumbling blocks ... *without* proper cause” (my emphasis).

4) “I will say that everything that Amie said was the truth ...”

Please either prove that or come to know the truth of the matter, and here are the things Amie has said to me:

5) “Maybe you don't recognized the dangers associated with new agers and this
particular cult ...”

I do.

6) “... you suddenly came into this post against Brother Yohanan ...”

No, I suddenly came in to hopefully help stop a personal attack on a fellow poster here on this board.

7) “... you copied only partial statements of what Yohanan posted, in attempt a tricky to make your point.”

No, I simply addressed one thought at a time, and I did that while keeping things in context ... just as even here in this post.

8) “... this post had nothing to do with you ...”

This is an open forum, and I like to get involved.

9) “... you are out of line to come against Yohanan for sharing the truth.”

Except in cases of things said for or in personal attack, I do not “come against” anyone for sharing truth, and even then, I do not “come against” (attack) even the attacker.

10) “Lee and has had an outside relationship with Daron [former Trooper] in his own forum for over a year ...”

I have no “outside relationship” with Daron at all, and I specifically addressed that re-allegation here on this board not at all long ago.

11) “... Daron and Joe teamed up against [Yohanan].”

I have never “teamed up” with Daron for any purpose.

12) “The last time you had a problem with Yohanan is when you suddenly came into defend Daron.”

I do not recall ever “defending” Daron, but I would gladly consider any evidence anyone has to substantiate that allegation – as if there would automatically be something wrong with defending Daron, if I even did – and how that might equate to my allegedly having a related “problem with Yohanan” over whatever was the root of the matter in the first place.

13) “You are a deceiver ...”

Quite an allegation!

14) “... you ... are trying to attack Yohanan ...”

Not true.

Yohanan, you have asked, “If I can prove that the [above] statements that Amie made are true, then howabout you leave this forum, or that you openly applogize to me an Sister Amie?”

Great approach to trying to help someone who is allegedly in error, eh?! But anyway, you could not possibly prove those things ... although I am sure you believe otherwise, and I can imagine there are others nearby who wittingly or otherwise love rhetorical spin and who would agree with you.

Overall, here are the two biggies:

3) “... you're ... casting stumbling blocks against me ...” (from you);
13) “You are a deceiver ...” (from Amie).

Yohanan, because I have no interest in trying to tread water with a millstone around my neck, I would ask that you do either of these two things:

1) Prove just those two serious allegations, then help me out of them;
2) Come to know and acknowledge the truth of those matters.

You have asked, “Joe, do you agree with my above proposal?”

As truncated, it will be just fine ...

“... or if not, how would you like this matter to be handled towards final resolve?”

The word there would be “resolution”, Yohanan, and my proposed amendment just above is my response to that question.

So then, and once again: Let us simply clear these falsehoods stated against me, and after that you can go back to whatever it is you were doing before I again began making an issue of your occasional lack of righteous character:

1) “... you're ... casting stumbling blocks against me ...” (from you);
2) “You are a deceiver ...” (from Amie).

Nonsense.

Joe

quote:

---

Originally posted by leejosepho:

Yohanan: Are you aware of how often you switch audiences, subjects and topics within just one post? If you want to talk with a fellow poster, then do that. And when you want to speak to the rest of us, then do that instead. And when you feel compelled to either voice or defend some kind of "position" or whatever, then do that. But as one who can at times be quite a grandstander myself, I would report to you that at least in my own case its overall effect is seldom helpful to anyone.

Shalom.

Joe

---

James 3:5 ...Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!
How easy it is to misunderstand someone and get offended.

This reminds of a story I once read, and I think it would be profitable to share it here, it may not apply in all points or to all.

The Unquenched Spark

-By Leo Tolstoy (1828-1910)
(Translated from Russian by Louise Maude)

There once lived in a village a peasant by the name of Ivan Shcherbakov. He lived well; he was the best worker in the village, and he had three sons, all of them able to work. The eldest was married, the second about to marry, and the third was a grown-up lad who was old enough to tend horses and was already beginning to plow. Ivan’s wife was a clever woman and a good housekeeper. His daughter-in-law turned out to be a peaceable person and a good worker. There was no reason why Ivan should not have led a good life with his family. The only idle mouth to feed was his old, ailing father who had been lying in a warm place on the brick oven for seven years, sick with asthma.

Ivan had plenty of everything: three horses and a colt, a cow and a yearling calf, and fifteen sheep. The women made the shoes and the clothes for the family and helped work in the fields; the men worked on their farms.

They always had enough grain to last until the next crop and sold enough oats to pay the taxes and meet all their other needs. An easy life, indeed, might Ivan have led with his children. But next door to him he had a neighbor, Gavrilo the Lame, Gordyey Ivanov’s son. And there was an enmity between him and Ivan.

So long as old man Gordyey was alive, and Ivan’s father ran the farm, the peasants lived in neighborly fashion. If the women needed a sieve or a vat, or the men had to get another axle or cart wheel for a time, they sent from one farm to another and helped each other out in a neighborly way. When a calf strayed into the threshing ground, they would just drive it out and only say: “Don’t let it get in again, for the heap has not yet been put away.” And in those days it was never thought of to hide anything of their neighbor’s or lock it up in the threshing floor or in a shed, or to revile each other.

Thus they lived so long as the old men were alive. But when the young people began to farm, things went quite differently.

The whole thing began from a mere nothing. A hen of Ivan’s daughter-in-law started lay-ing early, and the young woman began collect-ing the eggs for Passion Week. Every day she went to the shed to pick up an egg from the wagon box. But one day when the young woman heard the hen cackle, she said to herself: “I have no time now, I must get the hut in order for the holiday; I will go there later to get it.”

In the evening she went to the wagon box under the shed to fetch the egg, but it was not there. The young woman then went to ask her mother-in-law and her brothers-in-law whether they had taken It: but Taraska, her youngest brother-in-law, said: “Your hen laid an egg in the neighbor’s yard, for she cack-led there and flew back from that yard across the wicker fence.”

So the young woman went to her neighbor’s, and Gavrilo’s mother came out to meet her. “What do you want, young woman?”

“Granny, my hen has been in your yard to-day,” the young woman said, “did she not lay an egg there?”

“I have not set eyes on her. We have hens of our own, and they laid several hours ago. We have gathered our own eggs, and we have no need of other people’s eggs. And we don’t go looking for eggs in other people’s yards, young woman.”

The young woman was offended and said a word too much. Her neighbor answered back with two, and the women began to scold. Pres-ently Ivan’s wife came up carrying a pail of water. She stopped to take a hand in the mat-ter. Gavrilo’s wife rushed out and gave her neighbors the rough side of her tongue, re-gardless of what was fact or what was fiction. She reminded them of things that had happened and mentioned things that had not happened at all. Then the tongue-lashing began. All shouted at once, trying to say two words at a time, and not choice words, either.

“You are such and such a one; you are a thief, a sneak; you are simply starving your poor old father-in-law; you are a tramp!”

“And you have worn my sieve to shreds, you everlasting borrower! And it’s our shoulder yoke you are carrying your pails on. You just give back our yoke!”

They grabbed the yoke, spilt the water, tore off each other’s kerchiefs and began to fight. At this moment Gavrilo drove up from the field and stopped to take his wife’s part. Out rushed Ivan with his son and joined in with the rest. Ivan, being a sturdy peasant, scattered them all and yanked out a piece of Gavrilo’s beard. People ran up to them to see what was the matter, and with difficulty they pulled the fighters apart.

That’s the way it began.

Gavrilo wrapped the piece of his beard in a petition and went to the Township Court to enter a complaint.

“I did not raise a beard for pockmarked Ivan to pull it out.”

In the meantime his wife went bragging to the neighbors that they would now get Ivan sentenced and sent to Siberia. And so the feud began.

The old man on the oven tried from the first to persuade them to make peace, but the young people paid no attention to him. He said to them, “Children, you are doing a foolish thing. For a foolish thing you have started a feud. Think of it — the whole af-fair began from an egg. There Is no great value in one egg. With God’s aid there will be enough for all. Suppose your neighbor did say an unkind word — put it right; show her how to use better words. If there has been a fight —well, such things will happen. We are all sinful people. But go and make peace, and let there be an end to it! If you nurse your anger, it will only be worse as time goes on.”

The young people did not heed the old man, for they thought that he did not understand the matter but was just babbling in old man’s fashion. Ivan would not humble himself before his neighbor.

“I never pulled his beard,” he said. “He jerked it out himself; but his son yanked off my shirt button and has torn my whole shirt —just look at it!”

Ivan, too, took the matter to court. The case was heard before a Justice of the Peace and in the Township Court. While they were busy suing each other, Gavrilo lost a cou-pling pin out of his cart. The women in Gav-rilo’s house accused Ivan’s son of having taken it.

“We saw him in the night,” they said, “making his way under the window to the cart, and a neighbor says he saw him at the tavern, offering the pin to the tavern-keeper.”

Again they started a suit. And at home not a day passed but that they quarreled, nay, even fought. The children, too, cursed one another — they learned this from their elders — and when the women happened to meet at the brook where they went to rinse the clothes, they did not so much strike the mallets as let loose their tongues, and every word was a bad one.

At first the men just slandered one anoth-er, but later they began to steal things that lay about loose. And the women and the chil-dren followed their example. Their life grew worse and worse. Ivan Shcherbakov and Gavrilo the Lame kept suing one another in the Town-ship Court and before the Justice of the Peace until all the judges were sick to death of their quarrels and tired of them. Now Gavrilo got Ivan to pay a fine, or he sent him to the lockup; then Ivan did the same to Gavrilo; and the more they did each other harm, the more furious they grew.

“Just wait, I will get even with you!” they said one to another.

Thus it went on for six years. Only the old man on the oven kept telling them again and again: “Think of it, my children, what you are doing! Drop all your accounts, stick to your work, don’t show such malice toward others, and it will be better for you. The more the rage, the worse it will be.”

But they paid no attention to the old man.

In the seventh year the matter went so far that Ivan’s daughter—in-law at a wedding ac-cused Gavrilo before people of having been caught stealing horses. Gavrilo, who was drunk at the time, flew into a rage and gave the woman such a blow that she was laid up for a week. Ivan rejoiced at this and at once set off to the prosecuting magistrate with a petition.

“Now,” he thought, “I will get even with my neighbor; he shall not escape the peniten-tiary or exile to Siberia.”

The magistrate did not accept the petition for when they examined the woman, she was up and around and there were no marks upon her. So Ivan went to the Justice of the Peace, but the justice sent the case to the Township Court. Ivan bestirred himself in the township office, treated the clerk and the Elder of the District Court to a gallon of liquor, and got Gavrilo condemned to be flogged. The sen-tence was read to Gavrilo in the court.

The scribe read: “The Court has decreed that the peasant Gavrilo Gordyey shall re-ceive twenty lashes with a birch rod at the township office.”

Ivan listened to the decree and looked at Gavrilo, wondering how he would take it. Gavrilo became as pale as a sheet, turned round, and walked out into the hall. Ivan followed him out, meaning to go to his horse, when he heard Gavrilo say: “Very well, he will beat my back and it will burn, but some-thing of his may burn worse than that.”

When Ivan heard these words, he returned at once to the judges.

“Righteous judges! He threatens to set fire to my house. Listen, he said it in the presence of witnesses.”

Gavrilo was called in.

“Is it true that you said so?”

“I said nothing. Flog me, if you wish. Evidently I must suffer for the truth, while he may do anything he pleases.”

Gavrilo wanted to say something more, but his lips and his cheeks quivered. He turned away toward the wall. Even the judges were frightened by the looks of him.

“It would not be surprising,” they thought “if he actually did some harm to his neighbor or to himself.”

Then an old judge said to them: “Listen here, my friends! You had better make peace with each other. Was it right of you, brother Gavrilo, to strike a woman? Happily God was merciful to you, but think what crime you might have committed! Was that right? Confess your guilt and beg his pardon, and he will forgive you. Then we shall change the de-cree.”

Gavrilo would not listen to him. “I am fifty years old less one,” he said, “and I have a married son. I have not been beaten in all my life, and now pockmarked Ivan has brought me to being beaten with rods; and am I to beg his forgiveness? Well, he will... Ivan will remember me!”

Gavrilo’s voice quivered and he could not talk. He turned around and went out.

It was seven miles from the township of-fice to the village, so that it was quite late when Ivan reached home. He unhitched his horse, put it up for the night, and entered the hut. The room was empty. The women had already gone out to drive the cattle in, and the boys had not yet returned from the field. Ivan went in, sat down on a bench, and began to think. He recalled how the decision was announced to Gavrilo, how he grew pale and turned to the wall; and his heart was pinched. He thought of how he should feel if he were condemned to be flogged, and he felt sorry for Gavrilo. He heard the old man on the oven, coughing; then saw him turn over, let down his legs, and sit up. The old man dragged himself with difficulty up to the bench be-side Ivan and coughed and coughed until his throat was cleared. Then leaning against the table he said: “Well, have they condemned him?”

Ivan said, “Yes, to twenty strokes with the rods.”

The old man shook his head, “Ivan, you are not doing right. It’s wrong, not only wrong to him, but to yourself. Well, will it make you feel easier if they flog him?”

“He will never do it again,” said Ivan.

“Why not? In what way is he doing worse than you?”

“What, he has not harmed me?” exclaimed Ivan. “He might have killed the woman; and he now even threatens to set fire to my house. Well, shall I bow to him for it?”

The old man heaved a sigh and said: “You, Ivan, can walk and ride about the world, while I have to lie the year round on the oven; so that perhaps you think that you see everything and I nothing. But no, my son, it is not so. There is very little that you see, for malice has blinded your eyes. Another man’s sins are before you, but your own are behind your back. You see his badness, but you do not see your own. Who was it pulled the hair out of his beard? Who was it over-turned his rick when stacked? Who is dragging him to the courts? And yet you put all of the blame on him. You yourself live badly; that’s why it is bad. Not thus did I live, and no such thing, my dear, did I teach you. Did I and the old man, his father, live this way? Do you call this living? It is a sin! You are a peasant, a head of a house. You will be responsible. What are you teaching your women and your children? To curse. The other day Taraska, that young greenhorn, cursed Aunt Anna, and his mother only laughed at him. Is that right, I ask you? Think of your soul. You say a word too much and I answer back with two; you strike a blow and I strike back twice, is that right? No, no, my son, Christ taught us something quite different. If a harsh word is said to you —keep quiet, and let conscience smite him. That’s what Christ has taught us. If they slap your face, turn the other cheek to them and say ‘Here, strike it if I deserve it!’ His own conscience will rebuke him. He will soften and will listen to you. That’s what Christ has commanded us to do, my son. If any one has offended you, for-give him in godly fashion, and things will go better with you, and you will feel easier at heart.”

Ivan kept silence.

“Listen, Ivan! Pay attention to me, an old man. Go and hitch the roan horse, drive straight to the office; quash there the whole business, and in the morning go to Gavrilo, make peace with him in godly fashion, and in-vite him to your house for tomorrow’s holiday Have the samovar prepared and make an end to these sins so they may never happen again; then command the women and the children to live in peace.”

Ivan heaved a sigh and thought, “What the old man says is true,” and his heart melted. The only thing he did not know was how to be-gin to put matters right with his neighbor.

The old man, as though guessing what was in Ivan’s mind, began once more, “Go, Ivan, do not put It off! Put out the fire at the start, for when it spreads, you cannot control it.”

The old man was going to say more, but before he could do so, the women entered the room chattering like magpies. The news had already reached them about how Gavrilo had been sentenced to be flogged, and now he had threatened to set fire to the house. They had heard all about It and had again had a row in the pasture with the women of Gavrilo’s house. They said that Gavrilo’s daughter-in-law had threatened them with the examining magistrates

The magistrate, they said, was receiving gifts from Gavrilo. He would now upset the whole case, and the schoolmaster had already written another petition, to the Czar himself this time, about Ivan, mentioning all the affairs, about the coupling pin, and about the garden —and they said half of Ivan’s homestead would be theirs soon. As Ivan lis-tened to their talk his heart was chilled again, and he changed his mind about making peace with Gavrilo.

In a farmer’s yard there Is always plenty for the master to do. Ivan did not stop to talk with the women, but went out of the house to the threshing floor and the shed. Before he had fixed everything the sun had set, and the boys returned from the field, where they had been plowing a double tilth in readiness for the spring corn. Ivan asked them about their work, helped them to put up the horses, and laid aside a broken horse collar for repairs. He was about to put some poles under the shed, when t grew too dark to see. So he left the poles until the mor-row; and instead he threw some fodder down to the cattle, then opened the gate, let out the horses Taraska was to take to the night pas-ture, and again closed the gate and barred It.

“Now to supper and to bed,” thought Ivan, going to the hut. By this time he had entire-ly forgotten about what his father had told him. But just as he took hold of the door handle and was about to enter the porch, he heard his neighbor on the other side of the wicker fence scolding someone in a hoarse voice.

“A curse be on him!” Gavrilo was crying to someone. “He ought to be killed!”

These words made all the old anger toward his neighbor burst forth in Ivan. He stood awhile and listened to Gavrilo’s scolding. Then Gavrilo grew quiet, and Ivan went into the hut.

Light was burning within. The young woman was sitting in the corner behind the spinning wheel; the good wife was getting supper ready, the eldest son was making straps for the bast shoes, the second was at the table with a book, and Taraska was getting ready to go out to pasture the horses for the night.

Ivan was sullen and cross when he entered the room; he knocked the cat down from the bench, scolded the women because the vat was not in the right place, then sat down, frown-ing, to mend the horse collar. He could not forget Gavrilo’s words, with which he had threatened him in court, and what he just had said about someone, speaking In a hoarse voice, “He ought to be killed.”

The good wife was bustling about to get Taraska something to eat. When the boy was through with his supper he put on his old sheepskin, took a piece of bread, and went out to drive the mares down the street. Ivan got up too and went out on the porch. It was Itch-dark outside and a wind had risen. He stepped down from the porch and helped his young son to get on a horse, shooed the colts after him, and then stood looking and listening while Taraska road down the village, here he was joined by other lads with their horses. Ivan waited until they all road out of hearing. As he stood there by the gate he could not get Gavrilo’s words out of his mind. “Something of yours may burn worse.”

“He would not hesitate to do It,” thought Ivan. “It Is dry and a wind is blowing. He will come up somewhere at the back, set fire to the house, and go scot free, the villain! If I could but catch him in the act, he would not get away with it!”

This thought troubled Ivan so much that he id not go back to the porch, but walked straight out into the roadway, then round be-hind the gates.

“I will examine the yard —who knows what else up to.”

Ivan walked softly down along the gate. He had just turned around the corner and booked up the fence, when it seemed to him that something stirred at the opposite end, as though it got up and sat down again. Ivan stopped — he listened and looked. Everything was quiet, only the wind rustled the leaves in the willow tree and crackled through the straw. It was pitch-dark, but when his eyes got used to the darkness, Ivan could see the far corner, the plow and the penthouse. He stood and looked a while, but there was no one there.
“I must have seen wrong,” thought Ivan, but I will, nevertheless, go round,” and he stole up softly along the shed. When he came to the corner, behold, something flashed by ear the plow and disappeared again. Ivan felt as if struck to the heart, and he stopped. As he stopped he could see something lashing up, and he clearly saw a man with cap on his head, squatting down with his back toward him, setting fire to a bunch of straw n his hands. Ivan’s heart fluttered within him like a bird. Straining every nerve, he approached with great strides, hardly feeling is legs under him.

“Ah,” thought Ivan, “now he won’t escape! I‘ll catch him in the act!”

Before Ivan had walked another two lengths of the fence, a flame licked up in the straw of the penthouse and was climbing toward the roof, and there beneath it stood Gavrilo so that his whole figure could plainly be seen.

As a hawk swoops down on a bark, so Ivan rushed up against Gavrilo the Lame. “I will twist him up,” he thought, “and he will not escape me.”

But Gavrilo must have heard his steps, for he ran along the shed with as much speed as a hare.

“You will not get away,” shouted Ivan, swooping down on him.

He was about to grab him by the collar, but Gavrilo got away from him, and then Ivan caught him by the skirt of his coat. The skirt tore off, and Ivan fell down.

Ivan jumped up.

“Help! Hold him!” and again he ran.

Meanwhile, Gavnilo had nearly reached his own yard, but Ivan caught up with him. He was just going to take hold of him, when somet-hing struck him a stunning blow, as though a stone had come down on his head. Gavrilo had picked up an oak post lying in the yard, and when Ivan ran up to him he hit him with all is might on the head.

Ivan staggered, sparks flew from his eyes, then all grew dark, and he fell down. When he came to his senses, Gavrilo was gone. It was as bight as day, and from his yard something roared and crackled like an engine at work. Ivan turned round and saw that his back shed was all up in flames and the side shed was beginning to burn; the fire, the smoke, and the burning straw were being carried toward the hut.

“What is this? Friends!” cried Ivan, raising his hands, then striking them down on is thighs. “If I could only have pulled it out from the penthouse, and put it out! What is this? Friends!” he repeated. He wanted to shout, but he nearly strangled —he had no voice. He wanted to run, but his feet would not move — they tripped each other up. He tried to walk slowly, but he staggered, and he nearly fainted. He stood still again and new breath; then started to walk. Before he reached the fire, the side shed was all ablaze, flames were leaping out of the hut, and it was impossible to get into the yard. People came running up, but nothing could be done. The neighbors dragged their own things out of their houses and drove the cattle out of their sheds. After Ivan’s house, Gavrilo’s caught fire; a rising wind carried the fire across the street. Half the village burned down. All they saved from Ivan’s house was the old man who was pulled out; and the fami-ly jumped out in what clothes they had on. Everything else was burned except the horses in the pasture; the cattle were burned, the chickens on their roosts, the carts, the bows, the harrows, the women’s chests with heir clothes, the grain in the granary —everything was burned.

It. burned for a long time, all night long. Ivan stood near his yard and kept looking at it and saying, “What is this? Friends! If I could just have pulled it out and put it out”

When the ceiling in the hut fell down, Ivan rushed into the burning place, took hold of a brand, and tried to drag it out. The women saw him and began to call him back, but he pulled out one log and started for another, then he lost his footing and fell among the lames. Then his son rushed after him and dragged him out. Ivan had his hair and beard singed, his garments burned, his hands blistered, but he did not feel anything.

“His sorrow has bereft him of his senses,” people said.

The fire died down, but Ivan was still standing there and saying, “Friends, what Is this? If I could only have pulled it out.”

In the morning the village elder sent his son to Ivan.

“Uncle Ivan,” said the boy, “your father is dying, he has sent for you to bid you good-bye.”

Ivan had forgotten all about his father and did not understand what they were saying to him. “What father?” he said, “Send for whom?”

“He has sent for you to bid you good-bye. He is dying in our house. Come, Uncle Ivan!” said the elder’s son, pulling him by the arm. Ivan followed the boy.

When the old man was being carried out of the hut, some burning straw had fallen on him and burnt him badly. He had then been taken to the village elder’s house in a distant part of the village, which the fire did not reach.

When Ivan came to his father, there were only the elder’s wife and some little children lying on the cot. The rest were all at the fire. The old man was lying on a bench looking toward the door. When his son Ivan entered, he stirred a little. The old woman went up to him and said that his son had come. He asked to have him brought closer to him. Ivan went up, and then the old man said:

“What did I tell you, dear Ivan? Who has burned the village?”

“He, Father,” said Ivan. “He — I caught him in the act. With my own eyes I saw him put the fire into the eaves. If only I could have caught the burning bunch of straw and put It out, nothing would have happened.”

“Ivan,” said the old man, “my death has come, and you, too, will die. Whose sin is it?”

Ivan stared at his father and kept silence; he could not say a word.

“Speak before God; whose sin is it? What did I tell you?”

It was only then that Ivan came to his senses and understood everything. Then he snuffled and said, "Mine, dear Father.” And he fell on his knees before his father and wept, saying, “forgive me, oh my father I am guilty before you and before God.”

“Glory be to thee, 0 Lord! Glory be to thee, 0 Lord!” the old man said, turning his eyes again toward his son.

“Ivan! Oh, Ivan!”

“What is it my father?”

“What is to be done now?”

Ivan was weeping. “I do not know how we re to live now, Father!” he said.

The old man closed his eyes, moistened his Iips a little as if to gather all his strength, and once more opened his eyes and said, "You will manage. So long as your life be with God, you will manage.” The old man was silent awhile. Then he smiled and said: "Remember, Ivan, you must not tell who start-ed the fire. Cover up another man’s sin. Forgive, as God has commanded us to do.” And the old man heaved a sigh, stretched himself and died.

Ivan did not tell on Gavrilo, and no one found out how the fire had been started.

And Ivan’s heart was softened toward Gavr-ilo, and Gavrilo marveled at Ivan, because he did not tell anybody. At first Gavrilo was afraid of him, but later he got used to him. The men left off quarreling, and then their families left off also. While they rebuilt heir houses, the two families lived under the same roof. When the village was built again, with the farmhouses built farther apart, Ivan and Gavrilo again chose to be neighbors, liv-ing In the same block.

And Ivan and Gavrilo lived neighborly together, Just as their fathers had lived. Ivan Scherbakov remembered his father’s injunction and God’s command to put out the fire in he beginning. If a person did him some harm, he did not try to have his revenge on the man, but to mend matters; and if a person called him a bad name, he did not try to answer with worse words still, but to teach him not to speak badly.

In like manner he taught the womenfolk and his sons to do.

Thus Ivan Shcherbakov got on his feet gain, and began to lead a more godly life, and prospered as he had never done before.

Yohanan wrote:
If I can prove that the following statements that Amie made are true, then howabout you leave this forum, or that you openly applogize to me an Sister Amie?

*** Sister Amie wrote:
Let it be known to members of this forum that Lee has had an outside relationship with Daron [former Trooper] in his own forum for over a year, and that Daron's ministry has attacked several members of this forum over the years. When Yohanan tried to put a stop to it, Daron and Joe teamed up against him. Brother EliYah is apperantly aware of Daron, and also I see that Lee is under current warning. ***

Joe has stated that Amie's above statement are all lies.

HERE ARE SOME OF THE PROOFS ---------->

#1 Amie said above that leejosepho has had an outside relationship with Daron in his own forum for over a year.
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Reply Quote: By leejosepho
I have no “outside relationship” with Daron at all, and I specifically addressed that re-allegation here on this board not at all long ago.
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Proof: This will confirm that leejosepho has lied and not Amie.

The following are only two of many registerd posts by leejosepho in Darons "TRM" own forum. Notice the post that he made to Daron over a year ago.

Daron forums post By Leejosepho on Saturday, Nov 9, 2002

Darons forum another post By Leejosepho

#2 Fact: Daron's ministry "TRM" A.K.A "Trooper" did launch attacks against several members within this forum including myself.

EliYah has already verified those things, and has banned Daron for such. EliYah is also aware that Daron has copied certain member posts from this forum, and posted them in his own Web sites for purposes of fraudulently slandering them. That's the same Web Site where Joe posts with Daron.

EliYah has banned Daron TRM /Daron/Trooper at least twice from this forum for such reasons.

EliYah wrote: (Trooper - After being banned some time ago, he returned in an attempt to deceive me and others. The deception naturally will raise questions about his honesty and integrity.)

#3 Also Verified Fact: Lee and Daron did communicate via e-mails about certain members of this forum that included "Moshe, Angie, David, JayYah, Raymond" Etc.

It was Lee who opened the first post claiming that he talked with either Moshe, Angie, or their brother David about some very strange stuff.

I never knew any of those people, and I don't want to. They sent me many e-mails and repeated phone calls trying to get me involved in that mess, but I latter found out that it was as set up against me and my ministry.

Many e-mails were being sent to me from Joe and/or Daron, or from Daron with Joe's statements, and with intent to get me involved in a big mess that Joe was dealing with. Daron even called my office several times with bad ideas and against this forum, members, and bad mouthing EliYah by e-mail.

Most here will recall that Lee attempted to back up Daron "Trooper" just a few weeks ago in a post that I made to Daron. Joe also called me a couple a wrong names and insulted me without proper cause with his intent to defend Daron.

As anybody can clearly see from above & by Joe's own statements, he has lied about his relationship with Daron in his own forum, and everything that Amie has stated is truth.

The reason why Lee suddenly has came into this post against me "and he was totaly off-topic", and right after he got back from vacation, is because he is trying to make me constantly defend myself or fall off balance, so that others in here will think that I'm the problem, and because he knew that Daron was banned again two weeks ago.

However Lee now claims that he came in here to defend KyMak "other poster" that he says I insulted. KyMak made it known that he was ordianed as an ambbassodor by a known cult teacher, and that he is sharing some those same new age cult reincarnation teachings in this forum, and more. I can't imagen that anybody here that is a child of Yahweh would want to defend Darom or a new age cult associate that is teaching against the Word of Yahweh in this forum.

This really is sad. Joe is the one who started the problem along time ago, and with with me in this topic by coming in here off-topic against me with his forum advices.

Joe had lied to everybody here about his outside envolvements with Daron. Joe was even going to help edit Darons Anti-Christain book "Snake Oil" over one year ago, and that's one other main reason why my ministry and Daron don't get along.

I have only stated "a few things" that was needed to be shown to defend myself.

Hopefully Lee will now admit his errors, and I'm sure we could then all get along just fine.

If anybody is still not sure, feel free to ask EliYah to verify what I have stated is true or flase, as he has already verified most of this himself.

Otherwise it will be impossible for me to stay here, if Lee keeps this alive with a grudge on his shoulder against me for his Bro Daron getting banned.

Shalom in Yahweh

Brother Yohanan