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Originally posted by leejosepho:

KYMAK:

In one simple sentence, if you can, tell me what ...

Joe

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http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Luk/Luk016.html#31

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Originally posted by leejosepho:

KYMAK:

In one simple sentence, if you can, tell me what in-character purpose of Yah's would allegedly be served by reincarnation ...

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Well, KYMAK, I see you cannot.

Maybe I asked too much there, or maybe my "condition" was too restrictive, but either way, I cannot even imagine what good purpose reincarnation might serve anyone.

Peace to you ...

What do you think of Mathew 17: 10-13.

It seems to me that Yahushua was comfortable with the idea of atleast some form of re-incarnation in that He did not rebuke the desciples for their conclusion.

I think the confusion of the possiblity comes into effect when you consider some religions of the world have their own scope on reincarnation.

Perhaps reincarnation is a reality in some form or fashion. And if it is, it doesn't necesarily have to conform to man's religious notions of it.

The possibilities are evident in scriptute in my opinion.

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Originally posted by Mesobaite:
How do you come to a conclusion or opinion without thought? Action, decision and belief require thought. Your thought is the 'heart' spoken so eloquently of in scripture. Without it you are dead!

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Could it be that YHWH's thoughts are a little bit higher than ours??

Matthew 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of ELOHIYM, but those that be of men.

We are to trust YHWH's Word. not our own hearts.

Jer.17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

And how about the will of the natural man?

Gal.5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Shabat shalom,

john 9 verse 2

9:2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?

they asked if the man had sinned which caused him to BE BORN BLIND , WHEN DID THE SIN TAKE PLACE In order for him to be born blind as the disciples believed ?

I have no walls before my faith. True faith (as was alluded to earlier) BELIEVES ALL THINGS. Can you fathom what that means?

So far I have seen no scripturally based evidence to refute anything put forward by KYMAK, bedeyah or myself on reincarnation.

Greetings!

First, I would say in relation to myself essentially the same as you have said to Yahchov: “I have no walls before my faith. True faith (as was alluded to earlier) BELIEVES ALL THINGS.” And yes, I truly can fathom what that means.

However, I also well understand Yahchov’s parallel and complementary thought: “People who think their own thinking, understanding, decisions and will are ‘divine’ are (easily) deceived.”

So then, the overall question becomes something like this: Shall I/we “believe all things” and either draw or accept conclusions apart from simultaneously considering my/our own vulnerability as founded in ignorance and arrogance? And to that, of course, I say “No!”

You have written, “So far I have seen no scripturally-based evidence to refute anything put forward by KYMAK, bedeyah or myself on reincarnation.”

Possibly so, but one does not need “scripturally-based evidence” to know it is not okay to murder a baby in its mother’s womb (or anywhere else).

>> Conclusion: Sometimes “common sense” is sufficient.

You have written, “I do not have any belief on reincarnation. But a healthy discussion on the matter seems profitable to me.”

To a point, I agree ... and so, I have been asking: What purpose of Yah’s would reincarnation allegedly serve? And just as soon as anyone can give a brief and reasonable answer to that question, I would likely join in on the discussion. But for the moment, the discussion (as I see it) needs to instead be about why we might even bother to discuss the idea of reincarnation.

You have written, “And I am even more enticed when I see the wave of antagonistic replies against it. I ask, why?”

That is a great point: Yelling “against” something can at times draw even more attention than its advocates! And it was in part for that reason that I did what I did in an attempt to silence, or to at least quiet an earlier poster. And as to the “Why?” of that: Some folks still have self-thought walls around their “faith”.

You have asked, “Hey lee, what do you think of Mathew 17: 10-13? It seems to me that Yahushua was comfortable with the idea of at least some form of re-incarnation in that He did not rebuke the disciples for their conclusion.”

Personally, I do not have any “thought” concerning the verses mentioned, for I am one who must listen to others to learn. However, I can tell you I am not at all comfortable with some of the conclusions being drawn from there, for I have yet to hear of any legitimate purpose for reincarnation.

Shalom.

9:3 answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of Elohim should be made manifest in him.

He didnt condem their belief but he stated that is was none of the choices and that it was planned by Yahweh.

The point is I would love somebody to explain what the disciples were thinking when they asked that question.

As pertaining to a purpose for reincarnation, The purpose is life and that is what everything is about.LIFE LIVING , Yahweh is not the father of the dead

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Originally posted by bedeyah:
As pertaining to a purpose for reincarnation, The purpose is life and that is what everything is about.LIFE LIVING , Yahweh is not the father of the dead.

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Bedeyah:

Peace to you.

Truly, I am not qualified to perfectly "interpret", comprehend and discuss what the Messiah and/or His followers "thought" or "meant" by each and every word spoken, although if I was, I would definitely have the reincarnation discussion with you (or anyone else). But either way, and personally, I do not believe it is ultimately accurate to say "everything is about.LIFE LIVING". To wit:

"Let us hear the conclusion of the entire matter:
With awe regard the One Almighty and Sovereign who created us,
and obey Him in worship, as this is the whole duty of man.
For every work doth He bring into judgment, and every hidden
thing, whether it be good or bad" (Ecclesiastes 12:13-14).

Truly, I do believe you are correct in saying Abba-Father is not the father of the dead, but that fact neither validates nor proves reincarnation as most people think of "reincarnation". Rather, or at least in my own mind, that fact instead substantiates the more believable idea that man destroys himself.

I know a man who is absolutely terrifed of dying, although he will not come right out and admit that, and that man (as I perceive him) is a staunch and needy advocate of alleged "reincarnation" ... and I do hope the same is not true for you.

Please be blessed ...

Yoseph Lee

I understand that your question was addressed to leejoseph, yet lee was vague about his answering you concerning Matthew 17: 10-13, so I thought I would give it a try. First, your question again:

quote:

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Hey lee,
What do you think of Mathew 17: 10-13.

It seems to me that Yahushua was comfortable with the idea of atleast some form of re-incarnation in that He did not rebuke the desciples for their conclusion.

I think the confusion of the possiblity comes into effect when you consider some religions of the world have their own scope on reincarnation.

Perhaps reincarnation is a reality in some form or fashion. And if it is, it doesn't necesarily have to conform to man's religious notions of it.

The possibilities are evident in scriptute in my opinion.

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Now, for the words of Matthew 17: 10-13, just to be sure:

"And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come? 11: And Yashua answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. 12: But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. 13: Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist."

Now, if you went out for dinner, and when you saw me next time, you mentioned "That was a great meal! I ate everything they had!" The last thing - the very last - I would think, is that you were crunching down on some shell-fish. The thought that you meant anything unclean within your wide and general statement, is absurd to me, because I know what you believe. This is the way you have to look at the words of Yeshua, to the disciples.

Reincarnation wasn't even thought of by these men, and when there is a thought of that false doctrine, Cabala is most often the reason why one would think of it. Cabala is a gnostic heretical understanding, that can be associated with Taoism, and Hinduism, and other older understandings/teachings.

What then was Yeshua talking about? We know it wasn't that He approved reincarnation, because there is absolutely no logic to this whatever. When we see that Yeshua's holy history must be received by the believer as his own, then the faith walk of the believer must totally shut down anything that speaks of legalism [a self-working to salvation, the essence of reincarnation]. So we must find what Scripture is telling us by following Isaiah's code for our learning:

Let us start at the prophecy that is bringing about the questioning anyway, and that's in Malachi:

" Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of Yahweh: 6: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse" (Malachi 4: 5, 6). So people were expecting Elijah for centuries before the first coming, and Yeshua states that John is that Elijah. Now, what did John say?

"And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou? 20: And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not Mashiach. 21: And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No" (John 1: 19-21). So, John himself says he isn't Elijah! So JOhn says he is not, and Yeshua says [or seems that He says], he is! What else can we find to answer this mystery?

"But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.
14: And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.
15: For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb. 16: And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their G-d. 17: And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord" (Luke 1: 13-17). There is the answer!

Yeshua wasn't in any way, shape or form, attesting to the validity of reincarnation, and a cursery study would discern that. As a matter of fact, we can see here, a present truth for today, for the prophecy from Malachi 4, speaks also of the dreadful day of the Master as well. There are many who get this prophecy mixed up with the words from Revelation 11 about the two witnesses, saying "Well, we know that Elijah's one of them!" Yet, we have learned this isn't the case at all, but before Yeshua comes back the second time, there shall be either a person, or a people [and the latter makes more sense now, with the entire world filled with hundreds of millions of believers], who will be filled with the Holy Spirit, that they will be in power and spiritual strength, like John the Baptist, who himself, was in power and strength, like Elijah the prophet!

I couldn't have explained it better! This surely should put to silence the notion of reincarnation in the Scriptures.

By the way, I reading all the eight pages of this topic along with the definition of reincarnation: Reincarnation seems to give hope for continuing one’s existence in further lives and thus having a better chance to attain liberation.

Just my thoughts and questions to those who still insist on ever bringing up reincarnation:

1. Did Yishrael learn reincarnation from Babylon? Did they learn many ways of the nations around them? Is it not written that they went a whoring after the many elohims of the nations around them? Which of these nations taught reincarnation?

2. If reincarnation and resurrection are the same word, then what is the purpose of having two words to mean the same thing? Why is ressurection used ALL the time in the Scripture but NOT ONE occurrence of the word reincarnation?

3. If you use the word "reincarnation" then how can you show a Teacher of Reincarnation the DIFFERENCE between their teaching and your "CHRISTIAN" version. Do the preachers of reincarnation make a distinction between the words "resurrection" and "reincarnation"? Or do they consider both words the same and interchangeable?

I observed a statement above which I would like to address:

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True faith believes all things.

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Whoa there. Where do you get this idea in Scripture? It is quite a dangerous idea. If you have true faith do you believe in StarTrek, StarsWars, Matrix, blah blah blah, where will you end up? What is faith? Is it what you believe? Or is it who you believe? True faith does not 'believe all things'. True faith is what we receive from Yahweh and enables us to be His Son/Daughter. 'Believing all things' is the surest way to get lost. And being faithful is not being stubborn. It is being filled with the faith of Yahshua and receiving His Spirit of Sonship whereby we cry 'Abba, Father'.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of YHWH, and the faith of Yahushua.

How about we each examine what the faith of Yahshua is? It is the most important facet of salvation, and the most wonderful and inspiring.

Keep the faith,

IB