Now please don't mis-understand me and think that i'm accusing you or implying anything toward you at the end of my post here, as this is for those for whom it fits, and whomever they are, for they know to themselves if this fits.

You said

quote:

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In all this striving over words (2 Timothy 2:11-14) we seem to forget that in order to know these things we have to violate Jeremiah's admonition to "Learn not the way of the heathen." If our language is so corrupt that all the worship given to the Most High in it actually goes to satan, then it seems the only logical recourse would be to learn and worship in Hebrew. Before you put it off as a pipe dream remember that you can go to any Orthodox synagogue in the world and all the prayers and readings are in Hebrew. Then you wouldn't have to strive over words and subvert the hearers but rather worship with a clear conscience.

My two cents,

Shlomoh

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The post ABOVE was not about how corrupt our language is or has become, as Brother Larry has already shown is NOT the point, and learning Hebrew does not suddenly switch a light bulb on in the mind to learn and know all true worship of YAHWEH.

So let's not draw the readers attention away from the true meaning and purpose of thee above post as it proves the connection of the FIRST Gentile ruling beast Kingdom of Babylon and its Babylonian deity of fortune( Strongs 1408=GAD=GOD=GAWD, variation of 1409= GAWD, from 1464=GUwD, akin to 1413, Isaiah 65:11) with the Roman 4th beast Kingdom and its idol deity of Greek= Zeus and Roman= Jupiter which are all the one and the same, as Iron Rome absorbed all these previous Kingdoms and their idol deities.

The purpose of the post ABOVE was [b]NOT to

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learn the way of the heathen

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quote:

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strive over words

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All the Gentile world ruling kingdoms started with Babylon through to Rome ( See the Book of Daniel)and as each successive kingdom overthrew the preceding one before it, that next kingdom merely absorbed the preceding kingdoms before it and its religious practices and deities, as this is why the Greek deity of Zeus and the Roman Deity of Jupiter become to be known and mean the same in Roman religious mythology.

The purpose of the post was to show and prove that the Roman beast=4th kingdom( Dan.7:23-24), and John's 1st Beast( Rev.13:1) and their deity was Jupiter /Zeusand that the same Babylonian idol of GAD=1408=GAWD, 1409=GAWD, 1464= GUWD( Isa.65:11) is the same name of Blasphemy on the Babylonian mother and her harlots( Rev.17:5) which is also the name of the idol image of the(Roman) beast( Rev.13:15-17) is the ONE AND THE SAME idol that satan has deceived the whole world( Rev.12:9)including the common people into calling upon this idol title / name deity of JUPITER/ ZEUS/GOD=GAWD today in substitute place of YHWH= YAHWEH( 1 Kings 18:24; Joel 2:32; Acts 2:21; Rom.10:13), and in turn satan has caused through deception of the mother and her harlots that all them that dwell upon the earth to WORSHIP HIM- ie-satan and the beast ( Rev.13:3-4; Rev.13:8) through centuries of deception.

For those who have ears to hear and eyes to see.

This is NOT about how[b] corrupt pagan words became in the English language as you assume Shlomoh, so please don't mis-understand my post.

Brother Larry is definately and absolutely correct when He says that the idol title/ name of " GOD=GAWD "( Isa.65:11) does NOT HONOR the true Creator YAHWEH, however in fact it dis-honors Him and honors the beast and satan( Rev.13:3-4; Rev.13:8) through the false teachings of the Babylonian mother and her harlots( Rev.17:5) and have become a habitation of devils( demons)( Rev.18:2) exactly as Shaul( Paul) wrote in( 1 Tim.4:1-2), and also as Kepha( Peter) said in ( 2 Peter 2:1-3) speaking about the latter days.

Also, if people will do further investigation and research concerning the History and influence of the peoples behind the translators of King James and his translators they will SEE what Brother Mesobaite was talking about also.

Brother Mesobaite wrote....posted 01-12-2006 10:56 PM

quote:

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I keep telling you people this has nothing to do with paganism. Like I said above it would probably be impossible to speak english without uttering pagan words or phrases. Babylon (the world system including its languages) is steeped in paganism beyond our understanding......

"""What makes the words( title/ names) God and Lord bad are not necessarily their 'pagan' origin. What makes them bad is the intent of their originators when they were first placed in the King James bible instead( in substitute) of Yahweh( and His Name). I say the originators desired to divert the praise and honor meant for Yahweh to their own elohim( deities). This is what makes the use of God and the Lord bad. Its the FACT that when you use these words( title name deities) to 'try' to represent the Father Yahweh you are actually calling on demons

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http://www.eliyah.com/forum2/Forum10/HTML/002662-9.html

This is similar as Shaul( Paul) wrote in ( 1 Tim.4:1)

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1. Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils( demons);

2. Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron.

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Also as Kepha( Peter) said""

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1. But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Messiah that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.( 2 Peter 2:1-3)

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The false preachers and teachers in modern Babylon LOVE THEIR MONEY and have not seen to the physical nor the spiritual needs of the sheep, as they only covet their-the sheep's money or funds, so they tell their flock of people that YAHWEH and Messiah's real true Names does not matter or make no difference in their relationship with the FATHER AND THE SON, then in reality the sheep suffer for lack of true scriptural and spiritual knowledge( Hosea 4:6), and its YAHWEH and MESSIAH Yahushua through their spirit who are the real true KEY to the door of His Sheep and the true KEY to the spiritual knowledge of scriptures(Luke 11:52), that Messiah admonished the Pharisees for hindering those who thirsted to enter for that KEY of knowledge, which they forbid the common people and taught them to FORGET YAH'S NAME for their own traditions, and neglecting the weighter matters of the Torah or Law.

Yahweh bless,

Elyahc=Eljah C.

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Originally posted by GaryPap:
Hello all,

I understand many believers do not want to use the word "God" because it is Anglo-Saxon and was used to refer to pagan daities. Such believers usually prefer to use the Hebrew El or Elohim.

But please consider this. In the Bible El/Elohim is also used of pagan deities. In fact, El was the name of the chief Caananite god.

So, what makes "God" a bad word and "El" a good one?

Blessings,
Gary

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The definition of God is: 1.supreme being. --capitalized-- in this sense.
2.being with supernatural powers.

I would say yes to #1 but no to #2.unless #2 said (2.being with ALMIGHTY supernatural powers.

------------------
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.John 6:63 Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.Psalms 32:2

[This message has been edited by Yeshua (edited 01-22-2006).]

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You said...

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Before you put it off as a pipe dream
[quote]
That's my Dream!

Zep 3:9 “For then I shall turn unto the peoples a clean lip, so that they all call on the Name of YHWH to serve Him with one shoulder. Footnote: lip = language.

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I wholeheartedly believe that scripture above, however, I also believe these scriptures too.

And does people really realize, understand and KNOW that YAHweh Himself says this to people ?

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And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee( YAHweh): for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us,( WHY?) because of our iniquities( ie-sins-ie- the transgressions of the Torah(Law).( Isa.64:7).

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This scripture above fits perfectly with Kepha's( Peter's) first REPENTANCE OF SIN MESSAGE AND CALLING UPON THE NAME OF YAHweh( Joel 2:32; Acts 2:21-38)for to be saved, as also this scripture fits with Shaul( Paul's)in ( Rom.10:9-14).

Also, this scripture proves absolutely [b] that calling upon YAH-weh's Name, to take hold of Him( YAH ), for Him to take away our sins or transgression( 1 John 3:4), is detrimental to our being saved.

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So will [b]I( Yah see Psalm 68:4) make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am YAHweh, the Holy One in Israel.( Ezek.39:7)

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Well, if we do not know His true Name as many claim today, then, how will we KNOW His true Name of YAH-weh in the midst of us, and NOT pollute His sacred Name anymore, and how shall the heathen(Gentiles) KNOW that He is YAH-weh ??

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14. Simeon hath declared how YAH(El) at the first did visit[b] the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

15. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

16. After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: ( See also Amos 9:11)

17.That the residue of men might seek after YAHweh, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith YAHweh, who doeth all these things.( Acts 15:14-17) ( See also Amos 9:12 for verification of YAHweh's Name).

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Well, if the true Name of YAHweh cannot correctly be known today as people claim, then, how can our El YAH take out of the Gentiles a PEOPLE FOR HIS NAME, and how can ALL THE GENTILES UPON WHOM HIS-YAHweh's NAME IS CALLED, even be called by His Name today ??

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For all people will walk every one in the name of his elohim(deities), and we will walk in the name of YAHweh our El for ever and ever.( Micah 4:5).

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8.And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith YAHweh, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, YAHweh is my El.( Zech.13:9)

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Well, if it is as people say today ""

quote:

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that no one knows His true Name for certain.[/b]"" Unquote. Then, HOW SHALL WE CALL ON HIS NAME OF YAH-weh, and He will hear us and say, IT IS MY PEOPLE, and how shall we say, YAH-weh IS OUR EL??

[quote]16.Then they that feared YAHweh spake often one to another: and YAHweh hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared YAHweh, and ( them )that thought upon his name.

17. And they shall be mine, saith YAHweh, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.

18. Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth El and him that serveth him not.[b]( Mal.3:16-18)

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Well, if YAHweh's Name is not KNOWN for certain today as many claim, then, [b] how shall we that FEAR YAHweh, which we also speak often one to another of Him and His Name, and YAHweh hearkened or listened and heard it of us, then WHY would a BOOK OF REMEMBRANCE be written before HIM of them that THOUGHT UPON HIS NAME ??

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6. Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I.

7. How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy El reigneth!( Isa.52:6-7)
( See also Rom 10:9-15)

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Well, if we cannot know YAHweh's Name for certain as people claim today, then, how shall His people KNOW HIS NAME??

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12. Saying, I WILL DECLARE THY NAME( What Name?) unto my brethren, in the midst of the Assembly will I sing praise unto thee.
( See also Psalm 22:22 )

[quote]21. Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.

22.I WILL DECLARE THY NAME UNTO MY BRETHREN: in the midst of the Assembly will I praise thee. ( See also Heb 2:12)

23 YOU THAT FEAR YAHweh, PRAISE HIM; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.( Psalms 22:22-23).

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13. And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which El( YAH) hath given me. ( Heb.2:12-13)
( See also 2 Sam 22:3; Isa 8:18).[/quote]

quote:

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3. The El( YAH) of my rock; in him will I trust: he is my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my high tower, and my refuge, my saviour; thou savest me from violence. ( See Heb 2:13 )

4.I WILL CALL ON YAHweh, who is worthy to be praised: so shall I be saved from mine enemies.( 2 Sam.22:3-4).

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quote:

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16. Bind up the testimony, seal the law(Torah) among my disciples.

17.AND I WILL WAIT UPON YAHweh, that hideth his face from the house of Jacob, and I will look for him.

18. Behold, I and the children whom YAHweh hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from YAHweh, which dwelleth in mount Zion.
( See also Heb 2:13 )

19. And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their El( YAH)? for the living to the dead?

20.TO THE TORAH( LAW) AND TO THE TESTIMONY: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light( truth- See-John 17:17; 1 John 2:2-5) in them.( Isa.8:16-20)

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Have we not spoken according to the words of the Torah(Law) and the Testimony?

Well, for those who say that no one knows His correct Name and how to pronounce it today, then, I ask that they start answering ALL THEE ABOVE QUESTIONS that are asked after those scriptural verses quoted above with other scriptures trying to dis-prove the questions and with scriptures?

No matter how many arguments people have over the long form, however, there can be no arguments over this short Name for YHWH of YAHH( See Psalm 68:4) that is undeniable even in pronounciation as " AH " as in " Y-AH ", and even page 47 of Strongs Concordance Hebrew Dictionary number 3050 will easily prove this.

The Name of " YAH " ( Strongs Hebrew number 3050) pronounced as " ahh " as in " Yah " that is used 49 times in the scriptures, and the first place this short Name YAH appears in original texts is in ( Exodus 15:2)by Moshe( Moses) when He and the Children of Israel were singing to Yah.

Also, see ( Psalms 68:4) N.K.J.V. of YAH ? There is no mistake in pronounciating this short Name of YAHH.

One thing is for certain, the idol title/ name " BAAL-GAWD=GOD "( Isa.65:11) is NOT His name, as this idol title/ name is connected to the idol image of the Beast kingdom( Dan.7:23; Rev.13:1-17)which is " JUPITER/ ie ZEUS "( see Acts 14:12-13) of ROME, and is the name of blasphemy on and in the foreheads or minds of the Babylonian mother and her harlots( Rev.17:5).

YAH( Exod.15:2; Psalm 68:4) bless.

Elyahc= Eljah C.

You wrote:

quote:

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In all this striving over words (2 Timothy 2:11-14) we seem to forget that in order to know these things we have to violate Jeremiah's admonition to "Learn not the way of the heathen." If our language is so corrupt that all the worship given to the Most High in it actually goes to satan, then it seems the only logical recourse would be to learn and worship in Hebrew. Before you put it off as a pipe dream remember that you can go to any Orthodox synagogue in the world and all the prayers and readings are in Hebrew. Then you wouldn't have to strive over words and subvert the hearers but rather worship with a clear conscience.

---

I reply: To begin with, one of the first arguments I was given against calling upon the name "Yahweh" was in the form of a booklet whose author used the very same cautionary remark you used above. According to him, those who insist that we should call upon the name "Yahweh" instead of "God" are "striving over a word or a letter in a word." I was sent this booklet in 1987 by a well-intentioned friend who was persuaded that I was "going too far." The name of the booklet is Sacred Names: Truth or Error? by Frank M. Walker. Here's the direct quote from his booklet:

"Let me say this in closing, with love. Brethren, "Strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers." 2 Timothy 2:14, 15. There is no profit in this striving over a word or a letter in a word. God condemns such and the blood of souls is going to be upon some of our hands if we continue to do so, while neglecting to teach the Gospel of salvation—teaching faith in the person of Jesus Himself and His Father. Please study this again prayerfully with James 1:5." [Emphasis his]

Just as the author of the above regards the belief that we should call upon the name "Yahweh" instead of "God" as a matter of "striving about words," in the same way, those who believe we also dishonor YHWH by referring to Him with the title "God" are now presented in the same light. It seems to be a matter of whichever person thinks the other is "going too far." Thus, if I feel you go too far with a particular teaching, then I will simply charge you with "striving about words" in an attempt to make you appear overly eccentric or perhaps fanatical. As I have maintained from the beginning, this is not about "striving about words," though; this is about honoring YHWH. I believe the facts speak for themselves.

Secondly, I'm not sure how or why you project the impression that it is wrong to investigate matters to see if they are "the way of the heathen" or not. What does "learn not the way of the heathen" mean to you? The impression you leave me with is something to the effect that we should not even bother to check out the things we've been taught to see if they might just happen to be "the way of the heathen." Are you saying we should not investigate the things we have been taught as being true to see if they really are true? For example, if someone teaches me that Christmas is the time to celebrate the Messiah's birth, should I look into that teaching to see if this "holiday" has the blessing of YHWH, or should I not "go there" out of fear that I might just be "learning the way of the heathen"?

Some of us would prefer to be "Bereans," checking out the things we've been taught to see if they are true. Some of us have investigated the title/name "God," and have found that in whichever way one traces its origin, it is highly suspect at best and "heathen to the core" at worst. Elyahc and I have already demonstrated that a consensus of scholars agrees that "God" was originally the name of a heathen idol. These scholars plainly admit this, in spite of the fact that they continue to use that name in reference to the Creator. It reminds me of of the encyclopedia article we have about Christmas. The author of this Christmas article plainly concedes that Christmas actually stems from the Saturnalia festival, but he then goes into how "Christmas music is loved by all who hear and sing it every year," as well as other neat little tidbits about how to best enjoy and celebrate such a wonderful holiday. In the same way, many renowned scholars concede that "God" is traced to idol worship, yet they have no problem with referring to the Almighty as "our God." They might as well say, "God is traced to idol worship, but Yahweh is my God!" To them, such a remark makes perfect sense.

Others, who understand the obvious irony behind expressing the understanding that "God" is traced to idol worship while simultaneously referring to Him as "God," simply deny that there could even possibly be any connections. Never mind that Leah was raised in a very heathen environment. Never mind that archaeology has proven that God was worshipped in Leah's home town of Haran. Never mind that Jacob tolerated idol worship in his family well beyond the birth of his son, God, and never mind that Jacob had not even committed himself to the worship of YHWH ... in spite of all this, we are supposed to believe that Leah gave prophetic utterance when she named Zilpah's son.

Not even the Hebrew scholars who translated the Septuagint in the 3rd century B.C.E. believed such a thing, as they identified God with its Greek equivalent, Tyche. This was no "prophetic utterance" on Leah's part.

As for Jacob issuing a "prophetic word play utterance" with the name God in Genesis 49:19, this can best be described as his making the best out of an otherwise bad name. It would be no different than someone referring to the disciple named Hermes, saying,"Hermes will bring Yahweh's message to many people!" This would be a word play on "Hermes," as "Hermes" is the Greek "messenger deity." This wouldn't by any means serve as a green light to begin referring to YHWH as "our Hermes"! And yet, this is what we are expected to believe with regard to the name/title "God."

Finally, as I believe Elyahc properly addressed, this is not about learning Hebrew. Even if it were, I can plainly demonstrate that the believers of Old, who fluently spoke Hebrew, did not ever refer to YHWH as their "God," nor did they ever refer to Him with a title that can remotely be traced to the name of a heathen idol. I would like to believe we can at least agree that the titles Elohim, Adonai and even Baal, before corrupted by unregenerate men, were pure titles used for our Creator. Not so with the name/title "God."

One more thing: Back on January 18th you wrote the following:

quote:

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It goes without saying that Gawd has negative cannotations as well. Just not in this case [when Jacob made the word play]. So do El and Adonai, just not when they are used for YHWH.

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I reply: Let's just say, for argument's sake, that in the instance where Jacob made the word play on "God," there were no "negative connotations" associated with that name. Would this, then, prove to you that we honor YHWH by referring to Him as "God"? And when given the choice of referring to Him with a title having no negative connotations (such as "Almighty") versus referring to Him with a title that in various instances does have negative connotations, which title would you choose?

May YHWH bless!

In the love of YHWH through His Son Yeshua the Messiah,
Larry

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The name of Yahweh & Yahoshua is used extensively in the Apostolic Pentecostal pioneers books on the nature of Yahueh in Yahushua. Authors Frank Ewert and Andrew Urshan of which I have copies of thier writings with the use of the name of Yahweh and Yahoshua extensively. There are Apostlic Pentecostal congregations which use the name of Yahweh and Yahshua or Yahushua exclusively. SO I guess I attended different congregations in this vast movement than you did.

I will admit there is a faction that opposes such understandings but this does not represent this movement as a whole. They that are anti-nomian are dualistic ignoring the Elohim of the OT for the one of the NT which is really a figment of their imaginations since the NT stengthens and makes honorable the law of Yahueh.

Even though what you describe about their belief in the make up of Yahueh in Yahushua is Arianism not concurrent Modalistic Monarchianism or Oneness. This belief in the two persons with the Holy Spirit just being the power of Yahueh with no personality is very commonly taught in Saced Name circles not among Apostolic Pentecostals who believe the Holy Spirit is Yahueh Himself and has personality of the one Yahushua the Son of Elohim called "Father".

------------------
David ben Yacob

A cult could just use the sacred name and lead
people to their doom. Just because someone uses
the sacred name dosen't justify them as being a
real teacher of YHWH. People I am not condemning
anyone. Just be careful for there are many cults,
false teachers, and false prophets like Simon Magus
who try to bewitch people and trying to pass them
selves off as some great power. By the way the word
AMEN is considered a pagan name like for example
Amen-RA is an egyptian diety.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By the way the 1611 Authorised Version of the King James Bible.
Is the most reliable copy of the Holy Scriptures we will ever
be in possesion of. All of the other copies of scripture was
considered to be full of errors and tampered with. By the way
do you use a bogus bible?

http://www.remnantofgod.org/B-BIBLES.HTM

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:

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Originally posted by mstevenyr:

By the way the 1611 Authorised Version of the King James Bible.
Is the most reliable copy of the Holy Scriptures we will ever
be in possesion of. All of the other copies of scripture was
considered to be full of errors and tampered with. By the way
do you use a bogus bible?

---

Shalom Steve,

1. The Hebrew text is much closer to the original than the KJV.

2. Are those who say other versions are full of errors speaking from familiarity with the orginal languages? Or like most KJV only people are they armchair quarterbacks who want your tithes?

3. Does this reliability include the archaic spelling and books of the apocrypha that appear in the 1611 edition?

A little history on the K.J.V. and other translations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_James_Version_of_the_Bible

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The King James Version (KJV) is an English translation of the Bible, commissioned for the benefit of the Church of England at the behest of King James I of England. First published in 1611, it has had a profound impact not only on most English translations that have followed it, but also on English literature as a whole. The works of famous authors such as John Bunyan, John Milton, Herman Melville, John Dryden, and William Wordsworth are replete with inspiration apparently derived from the King James Version.(NOTICE!!) Modern Bibles such as the New American Standard Bible and the English Standard Version are largely revisions of its text; it has deeply influenced Bibles such as the New International Version that do not claim to be revisions of its text.

Though often referred to as the Authorised Version (AV), it was never officially sanctioned by the English monarchy or the clerical hierarchy of the Church of England. The name Authorised Version was particularly used in the United Kingdom, where the name King James Version was known only as "what the Americans call it" until the AV's recent decline in popularity in its homeland. It has no worldwide copyright, but its reproduction is perpetually restricted in certain parts of the United Kingdom under the royal prerogative. The King James Version, despite its age, is largely comprehensible to the average reader today. It is considered to be an instrumental founding block of Early Modern English, and remains one of the most widely-read literary works of all time.

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Notice that all other English Translationswere also influenced by the K.J.V.

quote:

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Modern Bibles such as the New American Standard Bible and the English Standard Version are largely revisions of its text; it has deeply influenced Bibles such as the New International Version that do not claim to be revisions of its text.

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Question; WHO suposedly authorized it, the K.J.V.?

[quote]William Tyndale was the first figure in this period. His translation was begun in England but failed to find support from the church. He fled to Hamburg, Germany where he finished his translation of the New Testament. It was published in 1526 in Cologne. Many copies of Tyndale's Bible were seized and destroyed when they reached England. He worked on a translation of the Old Testament but was jailed for his work in Brussels in 1535. He completed further translation work while in jail but did not finish the Old Testament before he was executed in 1536.

William Tyndale (b. 1484) was a priest who graduated at Oxford, was a student in Cambridge when Martin Luther posted his theses at Wittenburg and was troubled by the problems within the Church. In 1523, taking advantage of the new invention of the printing machine Tyndale began to cast the Scriptures into the current English. However, Tyndale did not have copies of "original" Hebrew texts. In fact the quality of the Hebrew documents was poor, since no original Hebrew sources earlier than the 10th Century had survived. He set out to London fully expecting to find support and encouragement there, but he found neither. He found, as he once said, that there was no room in the palace of the Bishop of London to translate the New Testament; indeed, that there was no place to do it in all England. A wealthy London merchant subsidized him with the munificent gift of ten pounds, with which he went across the Channel to Hamburg; and there and elsewhere on the Continent, where he could be hid, he brought his translation to completion. Printing facilities were greater on the Continent than in England; but there was such opposition to his work that very few copies of the several editions of which we know can still be found. Tyndale was compelled to flee at one time with a few printed sheets and complete his work on another press. Several times copies of his books were solemnly burned, and his own life was frequently in danger.

The Church had objected to Tyndale's translations because in their belief purposeful mistranslations had been introduced to the works in order to promote anticlericalism and heretical views (same argument they used against Wycliff's translation). Thomas More accused Tyndale of evil purpose in corrupting and changing the words and sense of Scripture. Specifically, he charged Tyndale with mischief in changing three key words throughout the whole of his Testament, such that "priest", "church", and "charity" of customary Roman Catholic usage became in Tyndale's translation "elder", "congregation" and "love". The Church also objected to Wycliffe and Tyndale's translations because they included notes and commentaries promoting antagonism to the Catholic Church and heretical doctrines, particularly, in Tyndale's case, Lutheranism.

There is one story which tells how money came to free Tyndale from heavy debt and prepare the way for more Bibles. The Bishop of London, Tunstall, was set on destroying copies of the English New Testament. He therefore made a bargain with a merchant of Antwerp, to secure them for him. The merchant was a friend of Tyndale, and went to him to tell him he had a customer for his Bibles, The Bishop of London. Tyndale agreed to give the merchant the Bibles to pay-off his debt and finance new editions of the Bible.

The final revision of the Tyndale translations was published in 1534, and that becomes the notable year of his life. In two years he was put to death by strangling in the Netherlands for the unrelated charges of teaching Lutheranism, and his body was burned. However, Tyndale may be considered the father of the King James Version (KJV) since much of his work was transferred to the KJV. The revisers of 1881 declared that while the KJV was the work of many hands, the foundation of it was laid by Tyndale, and that the versions that followed it were substantially reproductions of Tyndale's, or revisions of versions which were themselves almost entirely based on it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Modern_English_Bible_translations

Elyahc=Eljah C.

quote:

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Originally posted by Acheson:

Finally, as I believe Elyahc properly addressed, this is not about learning Hebrew. Even if it were, I can plainly demonstrate that the believers of Old, who fluently spoke Hebrew, did not ever refer to YHWH as their "God," nor did they ever refer to Him with a title that can remotely be traced to the name of a heathen idol. I would like to believe we can at least agree that the titles Elohim, Adonai and even Baal, before corrupted by unregenerate men, were pure titles used for our Creator. Not so with the name/title "God."

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Larry,

Hebrew speakers did not refer to YHWH as God, Lord, Master,King, Holy one, Set apart one, or any other words, many of which are just as pagan as the sound gawd. That's the whole point: more knowledge of Hebrew would eliminate the need to do word hunts.

You might not be a word hunter, but those addressed by the post to which you replied are.

Chosing the battles wisely,

www.weeblindmice.com

Larry said...

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Hi, Shlomoh:

You wrote: [QUOTE]In all this striving over words (2 Timothy 2:11-14) we seem to forget that in order to know these things we have to violate Jeremiah's admonition to "Learn not the way of the heathen." If our language is so corrupt that all the worship given to the Most High in it actually goes to satan, then it seems the only logical recourse would be to learn and worship in Hebrew. Before you put it off as a pipe dream remember that you can go to any Orthodox synagogue in the world and all the prayers and readings are in Hebrew. Then you wouldn't have to strive over words and subvert the hearers but rather worship with a clear conscience.

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I reply: To begin with, one of the first arguments I was given against calling upon the name "Yahweh" was in the form of a booklet whose author used the very same cautionary remark you used above. According to him, those who insist that we should call upon the name "Yahweh" instead of "God" are "striving over a word or a letter in a word." I was sent this booklet in 1987 by a well-intentioned friend who was persuaded that I was "going too far." The name of the booklet is Sacred Names: Truth or Error? by Frank M. Walker. Here's the direct quote from his booklet:

"Let me say this in closing, with love. Brethren, "Strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers." 2 Timothy 2:14, 15. There is no profit in this striving over a word or a letter in a word. God condemns such and the blood of souls is going to be upon some of our hands if we continue to do so, while neglecting to teach the Gospel of salvation—teaching faith in the person of Jesus Himself and His Father. Please study this again prayerfully with James 1:5." [Emphasis his]

Just as the author of the above regards the belief that we should call upon the name "Yahweh" instead of "God" as a matter of "striving about words," in the same way, those who believe we also dishonor YHWH by referring to Him with the title "God" are now presented in the same light. It seems to be a matter of whichever person thinks the other is "going too far." Thus, if I feel you go too far with a particular teaching, then I will simply charge you with "striving about words" in an attempt to make you appear overly eccentric or perhaps fanatical. As I have maintained from the beginning, this is not about "striving about words," though; this is about honoring YHWH. I believe the facts speak for themselves.

NOTE QUESTION 1. BY LARRY Secondly, I'm not sure how or why you project the impression that it is wrong to investigate matters to see if they are "the way of the heathen" or not. What does "learn not the way of the heathen" mean to you? The impression you leave me with is something to the effect that we should not even bother to check out the things we've been taught to see if they might just happen to be "the way of the heathen." NOTE QUESTION 2. Are you saying we should not investigate the things we have been taught as being true to see if they really are true? NOTE QUESTION 3. For example, if someone teaches me that Christmas is the time to celebrate the Messiah's birth, should I look into that teaching to see if this "holiday" has the blessing of YHWH, or should I not "go there" out of fear that I might just be "learning the way of the heathen"? QUESTION 4.

Some of us would prefer to be "Bereans," checking out the things we've been taught to see if they are true. Some of us have investigated the title/name "God," and have found that in whichever way one traces its origin, it is highly suspect at best and "heathen to the core" at worst. Elyahc and I have already demonstrated that a consensus of scholars agrees that "God" was originally the name of a heathen idol. These scholars plainly admit this, in spite of the fact that they continue to use that name in reference to the Creator. It reminds me of of the encyclopedia article we have about Christmas. The author of this Christmas article plainly concedes that Christmas actually stems from the Saturnalia festival, but he then goes into how "Christmas music is loved by all who hear and sing it every year," as well as other neat little tidbits about how to best enjoy and celebrate such a wonderful holiday. In the same way, many renowned scholars concede that "God" is traced to idol worship, yet they have no problem with referring to the Almighty as "our God." They might as well say, "God is traced to idol worship, but Yahweh is my God!" To them, such a remark makes perfect sense.

Others, who understand the obvious irony behind expressing the understanding that "God" is traced to idol worship while simultaneously referring to Him as "God," simply deny that there could even possibly be any connections. Never mind that Leah was raised in a very heathen environment. Never mind that archaeology has proven that God was worshipped in Leah's home town of Haran. Never mind that Jacob tolerated idol worship in his family well beyond the birth of his son, God, and never mind that Jacob had not even committed himself to the worship of YHWH ... in spite of all this, we are supposed to believe that Leah gave prophetic utterance when she named Zilpah's son.

Not even the Hebrew scholars who translated the Septuagint in the 3rd century B.C.E. believed such a thing, as they identified God with its Greek equivalent, Tyche. This was no "prophetic utterance" on Leah's part.

As for Jacob issuing a "prophetic word play utterance" with the name God in Genesis 49:19, this can best be described as his making the best out of an otherwise bad name. It would be no different than someone referring to the disciple named Hermes, saying,"Hermes will bring Yahweh's message to many people!" This would be a word play on "Hermes," as "Hermes" is the Greek "messenger deity." This wouldn't by any means serve as a green light to begin referring to YHWH as "our Hermes"! And yet, this is what we are expected to believe with regard to the name/title "God."

Finally, as I believe Elyahc properly addressed, this is not about learning Hebrew. Even if it were, I can plainly demonstrate that the believers of Old, who fluently spoke Hebrew, did not ever refer to YHWH as their "God," nor did they ever refer to Him with a title that can remotely be traced to the name of a heathen idol. I would like to believe we can at least agree that the titles Elohim, Adonai and even Baal, before corrupted by unregenerate men, were pure titles used for our Creator. Not so with the name/title "God."

One more thing: Back on January 18th you wrote the following:

quote:

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It goes without saying that Gawd has negative cannotations as well. Just not in this case [when Jacob made the word play]. So do El and Adonai, just not when they are used for YHWH.

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I reply: Let's just say, for argument's sake, that in the instance where Jacob made the word play on "God," there were no "negative connotations" associated with that name. NOTE QUESTION 5. Would this, then, prove to you that we honor YHWH by referring to Him as "God"? And when given the choice of referring to Him with a title having no negative connotations (such as "Almighty") versus referring to Him with a title that in various instances does have negative connotations, which title would you choose? NOTE QUESTION 6.

May YHWH bless!

In the love of YHWH through His Son Yeshua the Messiah,
Larry

quote:

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

quote:

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Originally posted by Elyahc:

How would more knowledge of Hebrew eliminate the need to do word hunts, or, rather, would not more knowledge of Etyemology title/ name meanings in one's own language coupled with more knowledge of Hebrew eliminate the practice of [b]syncrenizing and substitutionof the Creators true Name YAHWEH with idols?
[/B]

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So rather than try to reply to any specific posts, i will try to give some info & perspectives that may not have been mentioned to date. I will say upfront that i'm with Larry, Elyahc, and others who believe that the term "God" is not appropriate as a name or title for Yahweh.
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Someone said that calling the Father "God" with a capital "G" was the highest form of honor. Whoever that was, if you should decide to call me a scumbag, please be sure to spell "Scumbag" with a capital "S", so i'll know you are actually honoring me.
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I think that Leah's case when she bore Gad could be argued either way. My interlinear says that she said "with fortune"; and when Asher came, she said "my happiness". BTW, "Asher" is Yahweh's middle name (Ex.3:14 - "AHYH AShR AHYH" ). Interestingly, Leah explicitly gave "YHWH" the credit for the birth of her 1st, 2nd, & 4th sons; and she mentioned "Elhoim" during the 5th & 6th, for what that's worth. Anyway, unless she was hallucinating, there's no record that they were about to be attacked by a troop when Zilpah bore Gad, so "a troop cometh" doesn't make sense to me. Her saying could be similar to what Eve said when she bore Cain - "I have gotten a man from YHWH", only Leah was giving credit to [Baal-]God instead. Perhaps when she stopped bearing after the 4th son, she thought YHWH had "deserted" her, so she resorted to "God" to give her more sons, like when King Saul resorted to "Endora" when he couldn't get an answer from YHWH.
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An objection was raised that if pagan names like Apollos, Hermes, or G-d were so bad, how could YHWH allow them to be on the gates of the New Jerusalem or in the Lamb's book of life? The replies given were OK, but here's one i read on another forum that wasn't mentioned: You are given a name when you're born, right? Those that become full-born-again Children of YHWH, when the new birth finally comes, WILL BE GIVEN NEW NAMES! Perhaps it's these NEW names that will be recorded on the gates and in the Book, as the old song says - "There's a New Name written down in Glory". "Old things are passed away; behold, all things are become NEW."
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YHWH allows people to be named after pagan things. Daniel and his 3 friends are examples of being given pagan names. but that doesn't mean that He condones it, or that He approves of us re-naming Him after the pagan idol "God".
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Learning Hebrew sounds good on the surface, but i think i'll wait til it gets cleaned up, made more pronounceable, and has a few more vowels added.
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I once made up a short talk entitled "God is like Kleenex" (or Xerox, or Coke, or Frigidaire). It showed how, in just 1 or 2 generations, a Proper Noun can evolve into a common noun via popular use. When someone needs to blow their nose and asks you for a "kleenex", they don't really care what brand you give them. I'm sure that Kimberly-Clark is elated to see their brand-name applied to all the other facial tissues, and conversely i'm sure that Scotties and other tissue-makers are greatly irritated to see their products called by their competitor's name. Heylel (aka HaSatan the Devil) is the arch-competitor of YHWH, and i'm sure he is also elated to see one of his names being applied to his enemy. Likewise, i'm sure that YHWH is grieved to see Himself being called by His enemy's name. Not only is "God" used as a common noun for any deity, and a title for YHWH, it is in fact used as a proper name, thereby replacing the Name of YHWH and breaking the 3rd Commandment, as well as Ex.23:13 & Josh.23:7.
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Finally, it was demanded that we conclusively prove the connection between the deity "God" in Isa.65:11, and the English word "god". To me this is just a ruse to avoid the obvious. If it looks like a duck, waddles like a duck, & quacks like a duck, then MAYBE IT's a DUCK!

The real connection, however is THE ISRAEL CONNECTION. Many etymologists trace "god" back to the name of a "Teutonic [i.e. Germanic] deity". Unfortunately, they don't seem to go back any further, that gives a loophole against conclusiveness. But for those who understand who the modern tribes of Israel are, the connection is unmistakeable and incontrovertible. Remember that the book of Isaiah, who condemned the worship of "God" (Isa.65:11) was written just before the House of Israel went into Assyrian captivity, and was relocated to various cities of the Medes, just south of the Caucasus Mountains. When they subsequently migrated through the Caucasus and became know as Caucasians, they settled in various places like Germany, Scandinavia, the British Isles, and finally America. There's no doubt in my mind that they retained the word "god" in their languages, and it evolved into a generic term (Gott, Guwd, Gawd, etc.) for deity, as well as being transposed to a proper noun referring to the Most High. Notice the following excerpt from a previous post:

quote:

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The same root appears in the names of three related Germanic tribes, the Geats, the Goths and the Gutar. These names may be derived from an eponymous chieftain Gaut who was subsequently deified, who sometimes appears in early Medieval sagas as a name of Odin or one of his descendants, a former king of the Geats (Gaut(i)), an ancestor of the Gutar (Guti), of the Goths (Gothus) and of the royal line of Wessex (Geats) and as a previous hero of the Goths (Gapt). The Lombardic form of Odin, Godan, may derive from cognate Proto-Germanic *gudánaz.

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"Conclusive" means sufficient to draw a conclusion form, and this certainly does it for me. But each must come to his/her own conclusion.
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May YAHWEH (and not "god") bless all.

------------------
Chuck Baldwin

Yahweh has blessed you Brother Chuck, for your eyes do see, and your ears do hear.

When I posted that on posted 01-22-2006 02:40 AM I was wondering IF anyone would catch the connection here concerning these title / names of Germanic Gott=God-ie-Assyrians with the Children of Israel, and I put them in BOLD BLACK praying someone would make this connection as these articles from...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God

quote:

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The same root appears in the names of three related Germanic tribes, the Geats, the Goths and the Gutar. These names may be derived from an eponymous chieftain Gaut who was subsequently deified, who sometimes appears in early Medieval sagas as a name of Odin or one of his descendants, a former king of the Geats (Gaut(i)), an ancestor of the Gutar (Guti), of the Goths (Gothus) and of the royal line of Wessex (Geats) and as a previous hero of the Goths (Gapt). The Lombardic form of Odin, Godan, may derive from cognate Proto-Germanic *guđánaz.

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Lo and behold it was YOU BROTHER CHUCK who seen this connection of ( Isa.65:11)with the CHILDREN OF ISRAEL. I was waiting to SEE if anyone would even notice this connection, as that post was meant to prove TWO things, the connection of the Children of Israel with a dual "Got=God=Gawd=Guwd", and the connection of " GAD=GAWD=GOD=JUPITER=ZEUS " which that post from the Encyclopedia goes back to the 3rd Century.

I also quoted this and put part of it in BOLD BLACK as this quote even mentions the English royal line of Wessex that add names above that of Woden, Geat, Asser, Gaut, with ODIN

quote:

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Some versions of the English royal line of Wessex add names above that of Woden, purportedly giving Woden's ancestry, though the names are now usually thought be in fact another royal lineage that has been at some stage erroneously pasted onto the top of the standard genealogy. Some of these genealogies end in Geat, whom it is reasonable to think might be Gaut. The account in the Historia Britonum calls Geat a son of a god which fits. But Asser in his Life of Alfred writes instead that the pagans worshipped this Geat himself for a long time as a god. In Old Norse texts Gaut is itself a very common byname for ODIN.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaut

Also,

quote:

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Worship of Odin dates to Proto-Germanic paganism, and the names Old English (and Old Saxon) Wōden; Old Franconian Wodan; Alemannic Wuodan; German Wotan or Wothan; Lombardic Godan are synonymous with Odin, though they represent regional differences. The worship of Odin lasted longer in the north, and there his mythology continued to evolve. A result of this divergence is that not all the attributes of Norse Odin can be applied to the belief in this god in other regions and times. Odin probably rose to prominence during the Migration period, gradually displacing Tyr as the head of the pantheon in West and North Germanic cultures.

Etymology

The attested forms of the theonym are traditionally derived from Proto-Germanic *Wōđanaz[1] (in Old Norse word-initial *w- was dropped before rounded vowels and so the name became Óđinn). Adam von Bremen etymologizes the god worshipped by the 11th century Scandinavian pagans as "Wodan id est furor" ("Wodan, which means 'fury'"). An obsolete alternate etymology, which has been adhered to by many early writers including Heinrich Cornelius Agrippa in his Libri tres de occulta philosophia, is to give it the same root as the word god itself, from its Proto-Germanic form gud. This is not tenable today, except for the Lombardic name Godan, which may go back to *guđanaz (see also gothi, gaut, god).Gothi

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go%C3%B0i

As you said...

quote:

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The real connection, however is THE ISRAEL CONNECTION. Many etymologists trace "god" back to the name of a "Teutonic [i.e. Germanic] deity". Unfortunately, they don't seem to go back any further, that gives a loophole against conclusiveness. But for those who understand who the modern tribes of Israel are, the connection is unmistakeable and incontrovertible.

Remember that the book of Isaiah, who condemned the worship of "God" (Isa.65:11) was written just before the House of Israel went into Assyrian captivity( and now they are in Babylonian Captivity), and was relocated to various cities of the Medes, just south of the Caucasus Mountains. When they subsequently migrated through the Caucasus and became know as Caucasians, they settled in various places like Germany, Scandinavia, the British Isles, and finally America. There's no doubt in my mind that they retained the word "god" in their languages, and it evolved into a generic term (Gott, Guwd, Gawd, etc.) for deity, as well as being transposed to a proper noun referring to the Most High. Notice the following excerpt from a previous post:

[quote]The same root appears in the names of three related Germanic tribes, the Geats, the Goths and the Gutar. These names may be derived from an eponymous chieftain Gaut who was subsequently deified, who sometimes appears in early Medieval sagas as a name of Odin or one of his descendants, a former king of the Geats (Gaut(i)), an ancestor of the Gutar (Guti), of the Goths (Gothus) and of the royal line of Wessex (Geats) and as a previous hero of the Goths (Gapt). The Lombardic form of Odin, Godan, may derive from cognate Proto-Germanic *guđánaz.

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You surely better believe they did as you have very well said.

This is one of the very reasons that I asked Larry in an earlier post....posted 01-06-2006 04:25 AM

http://www.eliyah.com/forum2/Forum10/HTML/002662-6.html

""

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Isn't ironic that from this article BELOW that the Swedish and Danish peoples use " GUD " as a title without the letter' w 'which is silent, and that Strongs H.number 1464 uses "" GUwD "", from which all 1408,1409 are all related ?

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http://88.1911encyclopedia.org/G/GO/GOD.htm

I also quoted this very point to david_ben_yacob

posted 01-05-2006 03:08 AM

http://www.eliyah.com/forum2/Forum10/HTML/002675-2.html

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I have shown conclusive proof that the word " GOD= GAWD=GUWD, Strongs(1408), 1409, 1413, 1464 " in back or in other posts of a Babylonian deity( Isa.65:11) and is in fact of pagan origin from the "" Gernanic, ie- TEUTONIC-ie- or Assryians "" and they are the ones who took captive "" the ten Northern tribes of Israel "".

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Here was david_ben_yacob reply back to me concerning this truth that you now know too.

quote:

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david_ben_yacob--posted 01-05-2006 05:34 PM

"I have shown conclusive proof that the word " GOD= GAWD=GUWD, Strongs 1409, 1413, 1464 " in back or in other posts of a Babylonian deity( Isa.65:11) and is in fact of pagan origin from the "" Germanic, ie- TEUTONIC-ie- or Assryians "" and they are the ones who took captive "" the ten Northern tribes of Israel ""."

Youhave not in fact proven this no matter how many times you assert this. Strong's Concordance does not say this anywhere in it's pages nor does the Strongest Strong's by Zondervan Publisher either. There is not any thing wrtten so far that I haqve read that proves this in fact beyond the shadow of a doubt. I have read many attempts to make this connection but they in fact do not and neither do you.

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NOTICE THIS IN BOLD WHAT HE SAID--I believe in the two house theory but to use it to prop up this kind of scholarship is laughable indeed!

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David ben Yacob UNQUOTE OF DAVID

quote:

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I have shown conclusive proof that the word " GOD= GAWD=GUWD, Strongs(1408), 1409, 1413, 1464 " in back or in other posts of a Babylonian deity( Isa.65:11) and is in fact of pagan origin from the "" Germanic, ie- TEUTONIC-ie- or Assryians "" and they are the ones who took captive "" the ten Northern tribes of Israel "".

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http://www.eliyah.com/forum2/Forum10/HTML/002675-2.html

Now, I think if people will back up and re-read my entire article in this topic that CHUCK quoted from very carefully, they will see these 2 connections.

Is this merely a prop up of scolarship that is LAUGHABLE INDEED as David said back to me?

May YAHWEH BLESS YOU with even more knowledgeChuck Baldwin.

HalleluYAH!!!

Thank you Yahweh and Messiah, for revealing the truth to me and to Chuck, I owe it all to You, for i'm nothing without YOU, and all is given to you the praise and honor for your true spirit who reveals the truth of scriptures, and reproves the world of truth and righteousness too.

Elyahc= Eljah C.