quote:

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Originally posted by Mesobaite:
I keep telling you people this has nothing to do with paganism. Like I said above it would probably be impossible to speak english without uttering pagan words or phrases. Babylon (the world system including its languages) is steeped in paganism beyond our understanding. Its like a desease. Because you catch a desease does that make you a 'bad' person. No. Perhaps you may have been in the wrong place at the wrong time. The desease in itself is nuetral. Even Yahweh says He will send them. They have a purpose and a right to inflict their demise. Because you catch it doesn't make you a bad person. Yahweh says he will reign on the just and the injust and the same applies to curses such as deseases.

What makes the words God and Lord bad are not necessarily their 'pagan' origin. What makes them bad is the intent of their originators when they were first placed in the King James bible instead of Yahweh. I say the originators desired to divert the praise and honor meant for Yahweh to their own elohim. This is what makes the use of God and the Lord bad. Its the FACT that when you use these words to 'try' to represent the Father Yahweh you are actually calling on demons.

[This message has been edited by Mesobaite (edited 01-12-2006).]

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I couldn't agree with you more brother. Elohim looks at the hearts of our spirit and not at the tools of this world.

Shalom Mesobaite

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It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.John 6:63 Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.Psalms 32:2

You wrote:

quote:

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In Genesis 35 he told his household to put away their foregin elohim and they did so. This indicates that there was some mixing of worship here. However, the inspiration of the Holy Spirit did not bear witness to it. In the case of the naming of Gawd, both his mother (Gen. 30:10) and father (49:19) prophesied that the meaning of his name signified what his future would be. As I see it, if Leah simply gave her son a name that meant "troop", one could still argue against the use of the sound "god" in worship on the basis of Isaiah 65:11. If she named him after the idol Gawd, then the acceptance of this on the part of the Holy Spirit eliminates any argument against the use of the Teutonic title God on the basis that is sounds like the idol Gawd.

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I reply: As I see it, even if Leah had named Zilpah's son "Gawd" after a term proven as being traced to a meaning such as "great warrior," this still wouldn't be proper justification for culturally redefining that name as a title for Yahweh. Granted, I wouldn't let it bother me if that is what people did, nor would I necessarily make the claim that such a title dishonors Yahweh.

It is when Yahweh himself identifies Gawd as an idol worshipped by those who "forsake Him" that I recognize that Yahweh's definition and identification is all that really matters.

Do you believe Yahweh identifies God as honorable or dishonorable, Shlomoh?

I'm not sure if you've read the study that my wife and I wrote entitled "Do We Honor Yahweh by Referring to Him as 'Our God'?" or not. In the unabridged version, there is a section where we address the aspect of "Jacob's Blessing" that you brought up here. The first time I found this aspect raised was in the treatise "The Truth About Inspired Titles in the Light of the Sacred Names," by Dale George and Silvio Soto. In fact, it is their argument that we responded to in our study. If you like, I can post that section of our study here in this thread, as I believe it effectively answers the point you raised in great detail. It's fairly lengthy; otherwise, I would go ahead and post it here now. If you have already read our response to this particular argument, could you please address the errors in our reasoning as presented in the study we wrote?

As for now, I will simply point out that, from my perspective, here is a summary of what you are attempting to convey here: Leah issued a prophetic utterance when she named Zilpah's son, then Jacob augmented that prophetic utterance by making one of his own in Genesis 49:19. Since both Leah and Jacob issued non-condemning prophecies concerning Gawd, this means Yahweh must approve of this name, which in turn [somehow] means it is okay to culturally redefine Gawd so as to make it a title for Yahweh. Am I close?

Of course, as I have already addressed elsewhere, I fail to see how we honor Yahweh by taking the name of any man (much less an idol) and applying it to Him as a title.

Also from my perspective, I believe you presume too much in your effort to embellish what prompted Leah to name Zilpah's son. In spite of the fact that Jacob clearly tolerated idol worship in his household well beyond the births of his children (Gen. 35:2) ... and in spite of the fact that Leah was raised in an idol-worshipping household, you seem to somehow believe she attained "prophetess" status at the time Zilpah's son was born.

As both Elyahc and I have demonstrated, many scholars agree that she simply named her son after the idol Gawd who was worshipped in that same area. I believe you attempt to shift the focus away from that fact, instead drawing the readers' attention to the fact that other scholars do not believe Leah named Zilpah's son after an idol. Since you do not demonstrate that either side disproves the other position, I believe it should be safe to say that even you would at least recognize the possibility that Leah did, in fact, name Zilpah's son after the idol of fortune. Is this true? If so, then the obvious question is, "Why gamble on using such a name as a title for Yahweh? If she named her son after an idol that Yahweh is later recorded as condemning, would such a name constitute a 'perfectly acceptable' English translation of Elohim?"

I guess what I do not understand is how it is you factor in the reality that Yahweh condemns the worship of the idol named Gawd. It's like, if you expressed an intense dislike for someone named "Tristan," how would you feel if someone were to turn around and refer to you as a "Tristan"? Would you honestly feel honored?

In your previous posting, you wrote:

quote:

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The real issue is that after 65 years the Sacred Name movement is still speaking half the language of Ashdod and half the language of the Jews. By now the majority should be laining the weekly Torah portion in Hebrew.

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I reply: I disagree with your conclusion, Shlomoh. To me, this is all about HONOR. That is the "real issue." Learning Hebrew doesn't make anyone any more spiritual than those who do not. As wonderful as it would be for all of us to know and speak Hebrew, the fact is, in this day and age, it is simply not feasible for everyone to learn that language. Even though I do not know Hebrew, I think you know I can produce Hebrew scholars who agree that Leah named Zilpah's son after a heathen idol. Learning Hebrew doesn't produce a light bulb in anyone's head, alerting them to a realization that God is a "perfectly acceptable" title for Yahweh.

Moreover, I believe we can both agree that the believers of Old spoke Hebrew. Nevertheless, I have not found a single example of any of those Hebrew-speakers ever referring to Yahweh with a title that can be traced to the name of a heathen idol ... much less an idol whose worship He specifically condemns.

You concluded:

quote:

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The fact that none of us can ["lain" the weekly Torah] is indeed a sad commentary about a movement that lables every non-Hebrew thing as pagan or suspected of being pagan.

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I reply: If you really knew me ... and if you have even read all that I have written ... you would know that I do not go around labeling "every non-Hebrew thing as pagan or suspected of being pagan." I think we need to be careful about lumping people into groups and labeling them. If you believe I have done such a thing to you, I apologize.

May Yahweh bless!

In the love of Yahweh through His Son Yeshua the Messiah,
Larry

I hear the same argument by other people on different forums concerning the name of " Gad=God " that was given to one of the son's of Jacob, as if because if YAHWEH did not condemn the name of "GAWD " as given to Jacob's son, then, its perfectly ok to refer to YAHWEH as the same name that was given TO A MAN.

If that were to be true( which it is not), then, would it be ok to call Yahweh "" Bill, George, or anything including SUE "" like the old Johnny Cash Song ? (Though I speak to your shame of foolishness for men's sake)Then would it be ok to call Him " Jupiter " or whatever fits your fancy too?

This is about Honoring the Father's NAME OF YAHWEH as He tells us to do, not about mere paganisim, because this whole world is full of paganism, and including the English Language, and this not about everyone having to learn Hebrew either, but about KNOWING, USING, HONORING, PRAISING, and DECLARING the very Name in which He told us to do, and as He gave to Himself( Exod.3:13-15; Psalm 68:4).

As Brother Larry said, """I reply: I disagree with your conclusion, Shlomoh. To me, this is all about HONOR. That is the "real issue." Learning Hebrew doesn't make anyone any more spiritual than those who do not. It is not feasible for everyone to learn Hebrew, but even so, I think you know I can produce Hebrew scholars who agree that Leah named Zilpah's son after a heathen idol. Learning Hebrew doesn't produce a light bulb in anyone's head, alerting them to a realization that God is a "perfectly acceptable" title for Yahweh.""" Unquote of Brother Larry.

I agree, and also.....as

Brother Larry said, """I guess what I do not understand is how it is you factor in the reality that Yahweh condemns the worship of the idol named Gawd. It's like, if you expressed an intense dislike for someone named "Tristan," how would you feel if someone were to turn around and refer to you as a "Tristan"? Would you honestly feel honored?""" Unquote of Brother Larry.

"" Missy "" pointed toward something concerning "LORD " that I think is very important concerning this issue as Larry did.

Missy said, """While I don't see the word "Lord" as being a negative word on it's own, I will say I would have to agree with you that Yahweh should be addressed with much more honor and respect than some common genric word like "Lord".

I think the casual way of treating Yahweh by calling him "Lord" is indicative of how some people respect him period in their lives. I didn't always think this way either. I just thought, "It's just a word".. but then I realized well what if someone was to call me something I didn't ask to be called. I mean I am like the Flash correcting someone if they even SPELL my name wrong... so if I place that much value on my name.. shouldn't I place even more value on the name of Elohim ?

Given, I don't like to critize people that do use terms like Lord.. I will say that if many people would just look at that as a first step it could open their spiritual door to a lot of wonderful blessings. """"" Unquote of Missy

At...http://www.eliyah.com/forum2/Forum10/HTML/002677.html

Very true Missy.

And this was my reply.....

"""Also, as Missy said, think about it, if someone continually and on purpose called you a name that you did not like, and you tell them so about it, but they still keep calling you by that un-likeable name, how long will it be, untill you start avoiding that person because they purposely call you a name that you dis-like, even after you have told them about it???

No human person in their right mind will continually tolerate being called by a name that they dis-like, especially after you have told them so and to not call you that name, over and over about it, but they still keep doing it on purpose, you will avoid that person altogeter eventually will you not?.""" Unquote.

http://www.eliyah.com/forum2/Forum10/HTML/002677.html

Do you feel HONORED when someone continually calls you by a name or title that you have told them over and over that you do not like and to not do that, but they still ignore your words and keep on calling you that dis-likeable name or title against your own words to them?

Has the Father YAHWEH not also told us to HONOR HIM and HIS NAME the same in His Word ?

And YAHWEHWITNESS and I gave plenty of scriptures to prove that fact, and also scriptures proving against those that do NOT USE AND HONOR His Name too.

If this example( whether you think gad=god is acceptable or not) does not make one think twice about HONORING and calling the Father anything other than His Name YAHWEH in which He prescribed to Himself( Exod.3:13-15; Psalm 68:4), then there is no other example that will phase you on this matter?

Then would you yourself may as well let everyone else call you BIN LADIN, Ghengis Chan or whatever?

Yah bless,

Elyahc= Eljah C.

As I'm sure you recall, we had a brief exchange a little over a week ago regarding a question of whether or not you believe it is acceptable to substitute "God" for YHWH. You had submitted a posting that appeared to reflect the understanding that this is what you believed. Thankfully, at that time, I thought we resolved the matter when you submitted the following answer on 01-07-2006 at 11:57 PM:

quote:

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I certainly didnt intend to cause a problem, I also use Yahway and Yeshua in my speech, what I intended to show was the Jewish usage of this name, It is just information I knew and thought everyone would enjoy it. I agree with the guidelines set forth by the forum and didnt mean to mean that I disagreed.

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I reply: As a reminder, those guidelines include an agreement that we should return and use the original names for the Father and the Messiah instead of substitutes or man made alterations such as Jesus, Adonai, the LORD, HaShem, GOD, etc.

I felt, at that time, we had satisfactorily resolved the misunderstanding, and that you do not in fact support referring to YHWH with any substitutes. However, the other day you posted something that seems to bring us back to my initial concern regarding what you believe. I delayed in responding because I was hoping I wouldn't be the only one to notice. Anyway, once again, it appears that you may indeed support substituting the word "God" for Y-H-W-H. When someone says "God" is a generic term for YHWH, this comes across as a supportive statement indicating that the speaker has no problem with using "God" for [in place of] YHWH. Here is what you wrote on 01-12-2006 at 09:19 AM.

quote:

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I fail to see the problem with the name Gad as he was one of the twelve patriarchs of Israel. Plus I think the word "God' is a generic term used for Y-H-W-H. Of course it is also used for pagan 'gods".

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May Yahweh bless!

In the love of Yahweh through His Son Yeshua the Messiah,
Larry

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How about the Name of " YAH "( Strongs Hebrew number 3050) pronounced as " ahh " as in " Yah " that is used 49 times in the scriptures, and the first place this short Name YAH appears in original texts is ( Exodus 15:2)by Moshe( Moses) when He and the Children of Israel were singing to Yah.

Also, see ( Psalms 68:4) N.K.J.V. of YAH ? There is no mistake in pronounciating this short Name of YAHH.

Yah bless,

Elyahc= Eljah C.

quote:

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Originally posted by Acheson:
Shalom, Shlomoh:

As for now, I will simply point out that, from my perspective, here is a summary of what you are attempting to convey here: Leah issued a prophetic utterance when she named Zilpah's son, then Jacob augmented that prophetic utterance by making one of his own in Genesis 49:19. Since both Leah and Jacob issued non-condemning prophecies concerning Gawd, this means Yahweh must approve of this name, which in turn [somehow] means it is okay to culturally redefine Gawd so as to make it a title for Yahweh. Am I close?

[This message has been edited by Acheson (edited 01-16-2006).]

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Shalom Larry,

The conclusion may be true if and only if Leah named him after the idol. That is because the Spirit of YHWH inspiried her choice for his name. If the Spirit of YHWH sanctions using the names of idols (as long as we don't worship that idol) in one area, we are hard-pressed to prove he would not sanction a word in a completly different language just because it sounds like an idol name in another language. If Leah did not name him after an idol, then on the basis of Isaiah 65:11 one could argue that the term may be used of others, just not in the worship of YHWH.

I hope this makes things clear,

However, one thing is for certain, and that is that YAHWEH condemns the Babylonian idol deity of ( Isa.65:11)of " Baal GAWD ", and the scriptures reveal concerning an " idol " is Greek numbers, 1497. eidolon i'-do-lon from 1491; an image (i.e. for worship); by implication, a heathen god( elohim), or (plural) the worship of such:--idol.

http://www.eliyah.com/cgi-bin/strongs.cgi?file=greeklexicon&isindex=idol

Also, the Greek numbers for demon, """ 1140. daimonion dahee-mon'-ee-on neuter of a derivative of 1142; ( NOTICE)"" a dæmonic being; by extension a deity:--devil, god(elohim)""" ie-1142. daimon dah'-ee-mown from daio (to distribute fortunes); a dæmon or supernatural spirit (of a bad nature):--devil.

http://www.eliyah.com/cgi-bin/strongs.cgi?file=greeklexicon&isindex=1142

So we know from thee original meanings of these words that a demon is behind such an " idol deity ", and if a demon is behind the intentions of an " idol deity "( as these true meanings plainly do prove), then we know that satan the devil is is the originator of this deception that has caused " the English translators such as the K.J.V. and others " by " SUBSTITUTING " a title /name( GAD=1408 =GAWD, and variation of 1409=GAWD, from 1464=GUWD of a Babylonian idol deity( Isa.65:11 of Baal=lord and Gad=GAWD=GOD)and these title/ names is undeniably branded as " NAMES OF BLASPHEMY " on and IN THE VERY FOREHEAD OR MIND of the Babylonian " MOTHER and HER HARLOTS "( Rev.17:5)and on the IMAGE of the ( Roman)beast kingdom of ( Rev.13:16-17).

Now, I want to quote Brother Larry again as he made these statements that people of opposition would do well to take to heart.

Brother Larry, """""1. Yahweh has identified (defined) "God" as the name of an idol worshipped by those who forsake Him (Isa. 65:11).
2. There is no Scriptural precedent of any believer ever referring to Yahweh with a title that can be traced to the name of an idol.

( NOTICE!!)If anyone wants a third reason, I would suggest doing an etymological search for the origin of the word "God" based upon the criteria promoted by the opposition. Indeed, no matter how you "slice it," you come up with heathen worship. I am at a loss as to how, even with this understanding, anyone could conclude that we honor the Almighty by referring to Him as "our God." Why settle for anything that is less than pure? """""" Unquote of Brother Larry.

"" You come up with HEATHEN WORSHIP "" Unquote, however, I don't want ANYONE to think and ASSUME that we are " Accusing or condemning anyone personally ", however, it is up to each person to make up their own minds and consider the these scriptural research of facts that both Larry and myself have spent years into these facts.

I was shocked when I first read Larry's Booklet concerning this, as then I knew that I was not the only person that had done so much Scriptural and Historical research on his matter of ( Isa.65:11), however, when I bought this computer in ( Sept.2005) a while back, I found others too that had done study into this also.

Also, Brother Mesobaite wrote....

Mesobaite wrote...and actually points to the crux of this deception satan worship( Rev.9:20-21; Rev.13:3-4; Rev.13:8).

"""What makes the words " God " and " Lord " bad are not necessarily their 'pagan' origin. What makes them bad is the intent of their originators when they were first placed in the King James bible instead of Yahweh. I say the originators desired to divert the praise and honor meant for Yahweh to their own elohim. This is what makes the use of God and the Lord bad. Its the FACT that when you use these words to 'try' to represent the Father Yahweh you are actually calling on demons.""" Unquote.

And the K.J.V. scriptures and the spirit behind it has caused the whole world to praise and honor other elohim, and has diverted the praise, honor, and worship from YAHWEH the true Creator to the Advasary satan the devil.

When one uses these title/ names as " SUBSTITUTES " for the true Name of YAHWEH it is DIS-HONOR and an abomination to Him, and defies His Commandments( Exodus 20:2-7; Deut.5:7), and when one tries to apply or connect any other( Which is Practice of SYNCRETISIM ) this idol title/ name deity of "GAWD " to YAHWEH, it not only DIS-HONORS Him, it is also IDOLATRY( Judges 2; 1Kings 11:5-6), and He will NOT share His NAME nor HIS PRAISE with ANOTHER idol IMAGE( Isa.42:8) as He explicitly states this, and also says that HE is JEALOUS FOR HIS NAME( Ezek.39:25).

If YAHWEH is Jealous for His Name, and does not share HIS NAME AND PRAISE WITH ANOTHER IDOL IMAGE, then who do you supose accepts such praise and worship?

It is none other than that old serpent called the devil and satan that deceives the whole world( Rev.12:9), and has deceived the WHOLE WORLD into worshipping him( Rev.9:20-21; Rev.13:3-4; Rev.13:8) in the latter days.

We must LOVE,PRAISE, HONOR, and DECLARE the ONLY TRUE NAME OF YAHWEH and YAHUSHUA MESSIAH, not substitutes of idol deities.

So, I too must uphold ONLY the true NAME of YAHWEH( As the scriptures plainly say and teach ) and Messiah and NONE OTHER as EliYah - the owner and opperator of this forum, for He is absolutely correct with scriptures to not use " SUBSTITUTES " nor combine( or practice SYNCRETISIM )of idol title/ name deities with the true NAME OF THE FATHER -YAHWEH and MESSIAH, as the forum guidlines state.

Yah bless,

Elyahc= Eljah C.

I personally do no believe a connection of the Ba'al Gawd with Lord God has been conclusively proven with two or three witnesses on the same point. Nor do I believe Leah named her child after an idol. God is a generic term in English like Elohim is in Hebrew to refer to the one being worshipped whether the true God Yahueh or an idol. I certainly don't believe people that worship the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Yacob, whether they call Him by His name Yahueh or not are worshipping a demon , a devil or Satan himself.

I am concerned for those that do believe that others who do are praying to demons etc...already stated above, are not properly discerning the Body of the Messiah and someday will answer to the Head of the Body Yahushua the Messiah on Judgement Day.

quote:

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Originally posted by Elyahc:
I still have to agree with Larry concerning this issue, as he has pointed out that other MEN were named after idol deities, which as I remind people that these are mere MEN, and I too believe as Larry that they will be in the Lamb's book of life.

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Shalom Elyahc,

These men were given pagan names by their parents but the Holy Spirit DID NOT sanction such. In the case of Yacov's son Gawd, not only did Leah give him this name under inspiration, but when he was dying, Yacov made a word play on this name under inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Thus the Holy Spirit DID sanction giving the child the name Gawd. Thus he was not named after the Chaldean idol, but rather named to show the destiny of him and his descendants.

I appreciate your interest in this topic. Have you read the full-length version of what I have written? I only mention this because I believe the evidence I offer disproves the claims you have brought forth these past few days, so I would like to see your response to what I have written about "Jacob's Blessing."

Here is what you wrote:

quote:

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These men were given pagan names by their parents but the Holy Spirit DID NOT sanction such.

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I reply: I agree that Yahweh's Spirit did not sanction the parents of such disciples as Hermes and Nympha giving them their names. Nevertheless, look at what they became, in spite of the names they were given.

The same goes for the son of Zilpah. I see no evidence that Yahweh sanctioned Leah giving Zilpah's son the name God. Nevertheless, look at what he became, in spite of that name. It is my understanding that you believe Leah gave that name under inspiration, even though there is no verse of Scripture stating such a thing. It is also my understanding that you believe Leah spoke prophetically, even though there is no verse of Scripture stating such a thing.

Rather, Scripture does bear out that she was raised in a heathen household. History bears out that an idol named God was worshipped in the very town in which she was raised. Scripture bears out the fact that Jacob tolerated idol worship within his household until his departure from his father-in-law, Laban. These are all factors that those who support referring to Yahweh as their "God" do not seem willing to consider. As someone who is himself trying to understand the truth of this matter, it is something that I cannot get out of my mind. What you here offer is unsubstantiated and unsatisfactory to me. If it works well for you, then you are clearly free to go with what suits you. It's just that I sense an effort to either dismiss or downplay the fact that 1) Leah was raised in a heathen household, 2) The idol named God was worshipped in her home town, and 3) When God was born to Zilpah, Jacob was still tolerant of idol worship within his household.

In fact, according to Genesis 28:20-21, Jacob hadn't even committed to worshipping Yahweh unless Yahweh would bring him again to his father's house in peace ... which didn't occur until well after the birth of God. Even The Wycliffe Bible Commentary, usually quite liberal in its commentary, agrees that Jacob was far from faithful to Yahweh, clear up to his departure from Laban. Here is a brief comment:

"Jacob had failed to teach his family to trust and worship God [Yahweh] with all their hearts."

Nevertheless, in spite of all this evidence, you maintain that Leah named Zilpah's son under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit?

You also wrote:

quote:

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In the case of Yacov's son Gawd, not only did Leah give him this name under inspiration, but when he was dying, Yacov made a word play on this name under inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Thus the Holy Spirit DID sanction giving the child the name Gawd.

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I reply: As I have already made clear, I disagree with your claim that Leah gave God his name "under inspiration," and so do many scholars, such as Keil and Delitzsch, in their Commentary on the Old Testament, Vol. I, which was published between the years 1866 and 1891. Here is what they had to say about Leah's "inspiration":

"Leah did not think of God [Yahweh] in connection with these two births. They were nothing more than the successful and welcome result of the means she had employed."

Let's see, now: The one guy maintains that Leah named Zilpah's son under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. The other guys say she didn't. Whom shall I believe?

Finally, you wrote:

quote:

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Thus he was not named after the Chaldean idol, but rather named to show the destiny of him and his descendants.

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I reply: I believe Yahweh can take our worst circumstances and turn them into blessings. How about you, Shlomoh? I believe Yahweh can take a man named Apollos and a woman named Nympha and inscribe their names in the Book of Life. He can do the same with a man named God.

As for your claim that Jacob issued a prophetic utterance regarding God, I have addressed this view in the study my wife and I wrote, which is why I would like to know if you have read it. You offer nothing here to refute what we wrote, which is why I wonder.

I guess one answer I can briefly put here to respond that that reasoning is, "So what?" Wouldn't this make the other sons' names "prophetic" as well? This being the case, I have to wonder why, out of those 12 names, the one selected to be culturally redefined as a title for Yahweh is the one that happens to also be the name of a heathen idol whose worship Yahweh condemns. If one were to decide to arbitrarily choose the name of one of those 12 tribes to be a name that would be culturally redefined as a "perfectly acceptable" title for Yahweh, the tribe of God would have a one in twelve shot at being the one selected. The odds against it would be substantial. Is it just a coincidence that the name which doubles as the name of a heathen idol condemned by Yahweh "just happened" to be the one of choice?

These are all matters that I have to consider as I continue to ask, "Do we honor Yahweh by referring to Him as 'our God'?" I believe we should all seriously ask these questions. I believe our Heavenly Father is only deserving of pure worship, and as Silvio Soto, the co-author of "The Truth Regarding Inspired Titles" agrees, the name God is a name/title with "negative connotations."

Shlomoh, from my perspective, you do not seem willing to acknowledge the fact that scholars do not agree with your position that Leah named Zilpah's son "under inspiration," nor do you seem willing to take the step that Mr. Soto did in conceding that God is a name with "negative connotations." Indeed, I have seen you do nothing but attempt to embellish it. As a truth seeker, I need a balanced perspective, not a biased one.

Believe me, I would much prefer to refer to Yahweh as "God" IF I could know for sure that it has His blessing. Life would be a lot easier for me if I could refer to Him as "my God." I would have more friends. My family would think a lot more highly of me, too. However, I do not see that referring to Yahweh as "my God" has His blessing. Nothing from the account of Leah and Jacob persuades me that the naming of this child had His blessing, nor does anything from the account of where Yahweh specifically condemns the worship of God (Is. 65:11). I have really tried to be balanced in arriving at my present conclusion. I have come from calling upon "God" to calling upon "Yahweh." Making that transition was not without many trials and a great deal of study. I only make this point because I know there are those who are going to call my own study "biased." Those are usually the people who haven't taken the time to read it.

I would like to stand behind Elyahc on this one and plainly state that we do not condemn anyone who refers to Yahweh as their "God." I do, however, believe this dishonors Him, as I do not see how we can honor Him by referring to Him with a name that even might stem from the name of a heathen idol ... and certainly not when Yahweh Himself singles out that idol's name as an idol worshipped by those who forsake Him. I personally want nothing to do with such an idol ... and I find it unthinkable to apply such an idol's name as a title for the Almighty. Shlomoh, If you have any other evidence to help persuade me that we honor Yahweh by referring to Him as "God," I will do my best to remain open-minded.

May Yahweh bless you!

In the love of Yahweh through His Son Yeshua the Messiah,
Larry

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Gad
(Hebrew: fortune, luck)
Patriarch, seventh son of Jacob (Genesis 35).

Tribe of Israel dwelling east of the Jordan, between Manasses on the north and Ruben on the south. They were a war-like race whose valor is highly praised in the parting blessing of Moses (Deuteronomy 33), and in the prophecy of Jacob (Genesis 49).

Hebrew prophet (1 Kings 22), contemporary of King David.

You wrote:

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Calling Yahueh the God with a capital G is the highest form of honoer and esteem given in the English expecially when the G is capitalized.

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I reply: I believe you can only make such a comment as the above because you choose to go along with a man-made decision to culturally redefine the name God, then declare it to be a "perfectly acceptable translation" of Elohim. This brings us back to "square one," for I continue to maintain that Yahweh's definition supersedes a man-made one.

Since you have already expressed similar support for referring to Yahueh as your "Zeus" or your "Apollos," there is no question as to whether or not you also believe referring to Yahueh as your "God" honors Him. My question is, "How?" and "Why"? I have yet to see from you or anyone any satisfactory demonstration of Yahweh giving anyone His approval to refer to Him with the name that can be traced to the name of an idol whose worship He condemns.

It is obvious you do not believe it can be "proven" that this name is traced to the name of a heathen idol. However, can you prove that it cannot? You have previously remarked that you believe the "burden of proof" should be on those of my persuasion to prove that it definitely is traced to the name of a heathen idol. Well, I believe the burden of proof should be upon you to prove that it isn't. I believe Yahweh's honor is worth that much and more, especially since He is on record as condemning the worship of this idol.

As an example illustrating what I mean by the level of respect due to our Heavenly Father, I'll ask you the same basic question I asked Shlomoh the other day (he hasn't answered it yet): If you were to make it known that you have utter contempt for a man named "Tristan," and then someone came along and referred to you as a "Tristan," how would this make you feel?

I'll tell you this much, David: I would know right away that the guy who dared call you a "Tristan" doesn't have any respect for you or your feelings. I would not call you a "Tristan" because I do respect you as a person. As much as I respect you for who you are, though, I have to give an infinitely greater amount of respect to our Heavenly Father. I hope this explanation at least serves to give you a glimpse of the respect and reverence I have for our Creator.

Please understand that I am trying to reason with you. For me to be persuaded of your position, I need more than unsubstantiated remarks to the effect that "Calling Yahueh the God honors Him." I need more than unsubstantiated remarks that "Leah named Zilpah's son God under inspiration from the Holy Spirit." I believe I have conclusively demonstrated that Leah was raised in a heathen environment in a region where an idol named God was worshipped. I have also shown that her husband tolerated Leah practicing her heathen ways well beyond the birth of his son named God. I have also demonstrated that Yahweh condemns the worship of God. Since He specifically condemns the worship of God, I fail to see how we can honor Him by referring to Him as "our God." If you can, please demonstrate that my reasoning here is misguided.

Does it really make sense to be able to make the claim that "Yahweh condemns the worship of God, but Yahweh is my God"?

In the love of Yahweh through His Son Yeshua the Messiah,
Larry

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Originally posted by Acheson:

I guess one answer I can briefly put here to respond that that reasoning is, "So what?" Wouldn't this make the other sons' names "prophetic" as well? This being the case, I have to wonder why, out of those 12 names, the one selected to be culturally redefined as a title for Yahweh is the one that happens to [b]also be the name of a heathen idol whose worship Yahweh condemns. If one were to decide to arbitrarily choose the name of one of those 12 tribes to be a name that would be culturally redefined as a "perfectly acceptable" title for Yahweh, the tribe of God would have a one in twelve shot at being the one selected. The odds against it would be substantial. Is it just a coincidence that the name which doubles as the name of a heathen idol condemned by Yahweh "just happened" to be the one of choice?

[/B]

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Shalom Larry,

In this whole thread I have never said that "God" was or was not an acceptable title for YHWH. My only issue is that I do not think that Jacob would make a word play on his name if it were. That word play showed that his destiny was the same as Leah spoke about when she gave him that name. Unless the heathen deity Gawd is in the habit of accurately portraying a child's future, I have to still conclude that YHWH gave Leah the utterance, "a troop cometh."

It goes without saying that Gawd has negative cannotations as well. Just not in this case. So do El and Adonai, just not when they are used for YHWH.

As for Keil and Delitzsch, they were just as much armchair quarterbacks as we are.

Toodles,

Shlomoh