quote:

---

Originally posted by naesimo:
Sharon,

Does your heart tell you that giving your brother money would be enabling him or do you see it as charity that could help witness Messiah to him? After you pray about what to do if Messiah tells you to help him with money I'm sure people here would do what they can to help you meet your brother's needs the best they can and give you emotional support while you try to help your brother the best you can. But I think you should take your quiet time with Father to see what He tells you then you can tell us how we can help you help your brother and whatever Father tells you to do we will support that.

I hope that I am making you feel better about talking about your brother on the board and that you don't feel like I'm telling you what to do. If you feel like I'm trying to be nosy and bossy you can say so but really I want to help both of you if I can.

Shalom & love,
Renae

---

Shalom naesimo

Yes, it is enabling.

He has to live on social security and cannot account for his money this month.
He has been drunk for 10 days straight except for the one day he checked into the hospital.
Anybody want to give to the cause?

I feel fine about my life and my relationship with my brother.

I am just trying to help you understand where I am coming from when I am oblivious to the demands of people to be treated a particular way or suffer the backlash of being called self-righteous hypocrite or Pharisee.
It is manipulative to me to be told how to act or speak.

Outside of the Bible, that is the best way to describe the "leaven of the Pharisees" compared to anything I've ever read or heard.

Thank you for posting it!

I might add another kind of Pharisee terror -- "Born Again Bombing" -- Which is terrorizing people who do not follow a pre-defined set of Christian "salvation principles" and get "bombed to hell" for it.

Greg

My post was for people that can receive it and I realized when I penned it not everyone would be ready or even willing to receive it.

It wasn't a judgement of anyone and I didn't name your name or anyone elses specifically. YHWH's children are called to judge the difference between what's profane and set apart, what's clean and unclean, and learn not the way of heathens. That's a simple fact and I related that fact in my post.

If you want to read more into my post than what's there..that's on you and I am not going to entertain any invented strife or malice with going back and forth over it. I'm not interested in any discussion with you about my character..so that you'll have to do alone. No offense.

If you want to think of me in a negative light and what I posted in a negative light, that's fine.. but if it means that's where I have to stand in your eyes or anyone else's eyes to point out what the truth of Scriptures say.. I will stand alone. I accept that position more than happily because I know what Yah expects of ME.

YHWH bless you and keep you though.

2Co 6:16 What agreement has a temple of Elohim with idols? For you are a temple of the living Elohim. Even as Elohim said, "I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their Elohim, and they will be my people." 17 Therefore, "'Come out from among them, and be separate,' says YHWH. 'Touch no unclean thing. I will receive you. 18 I will be to you a Father. You will be to me sons and daughters,' says YHWH the Almighty."

Missy

quote:

---

Originally posted by GregO:
(KC wrote): These are just a few to think about. There are indeed different kinds of sacrifices one can give to Yahweh. When you do Yahweh's will and not your own will, you are actually sacrificing your will for him. And Yahweh tells those joined to him not to follow the way of the heathen. This is his will. It's what is right in his eyes. This is what I meant, but I didn't have the time to post another post on it.

(Greg) The flip side of this position is making "self sacrifices" which were never commandmed by Yahweh. For example, King Saul did not obey Elohim and He decided to save some cattle and animals to bring back from the spoils of war, and for the purpose to sacrifice to Yahweh, with "good intentions". For this action, we was removed from being king of Israel and eventually replaced by David.

Now, if Yahweh never commanded any believer to give up Christmas traditions, but they have concluded this on their own, then they are actually committing the sin of Saul. It would be better to make the choice independent of "Yahweh's will", and make it a "personal choice", rather than placing His name on it wrongfully.

Sometimes, Yahweh commands in a matter. Sometimes he leaves it to our discretion.

The worst kind of sacrifice is self-sacrifice when we think Yahweh has told us to do something, plopping his name out of the sky on our actions, when it was our desire, not his, in the first place!

Pesonally I'm not convinced that Yahweh has "commanded" us to stop celebrating His Son's birthday on Dec 25th. I'm not sure he cares what day it was. Sometimes we celebrate our own kid's birthday on a different day. How we celebrate it, however, would be what is most important. It makes sense that if Yahweh established a weekly sabbath to celebrate is resting from His creation, it seems reasonable he wouldn't be upset if we celebrate His creation of His Son's body.

Does Yahweh have to command every facit of our lives? If He didn't command us to celebrate His Son's birthday, does this mean we are committing sin if we do? Or on a day different than it actually was, because we don't have the exact date?

Obviouisly, Eliyah and others have already addressed the issue, but our family hasn't, and we are not the type of people that say, "Well, that person said it, so let's do it his way." That's the easy way.

If anyone here has done that, and they just say,"I believe his view", then you are missing the whole point of spiriutal growth and learning. Certainly, Eliyah is being open minded to correction himself, and each person should be doing the same thing. I'm sure, Eliyah is leaving room and flexibility to change if Yahweh corrects him.

So, the more difficult path is to appoach any problem with an open mind, look at all the questions and issues, gather facts, then make a decision after the fact-finding mission is completed--rather than sailing along under the wings of someone else who is doing all the work for you.

For me, regarding this issue, I'm one to see things in "numbers" at times when the obviousl is presented, since Yahweh has a heart for numbers. I look at December 25. It converts to 12 and 25.

Let's look further.

We see the 12 commandments which are the 10 commandments plus the 2 great commandments that are etched into the body-- 10 fingers on 2 hands. That is 12.

The 25 is obvious, which is the two tablets of stone given to Moses with 5 commandments on each. 2 times 5 equals 10.

Finally, 2 plus 5 is 7, which takes us back to the Sabbath rest from creation.

Now, whether or not that "date" 12-25 was chosen by the devil to confuse us, knowing the truth set in numbers, or by God to confirm His approvaal of it, is the question to discern.

If it's from the devil, we should flee from it.

But if it is Yahweh approving it's OK by the date, then celebration of the day should lead us back to keeping the 12 commandments of Yahweh, and resting in Him and His 10 commandments, or 7.

If it doesn't lead and inspire one to keep the 10 commandments of yahweh, which answer depends on each family's tradition and attitude, then the practice and celebration is not approved by Yahweh.

I'm leaning toward the latter view, but open to change on a dime if proven otherwise.

Still in the fact finding stage.

The date 12-25 makes it clear...it's either from Yahweh or the devil...the issue of celebrating the birth of His Son on that day. Man himself would not have been clever enough to know the meaning of the numbers and plan for it to just "happen" that way.

Finally, the real question then to answer behind all the many other "question" I've asked her is this: Is Yahweh offended for celebrating the creation of His Son's body?

If the answer is no, then whether we celebreate it on Dec 25 or any other day of the year doesn't matter.

The answer to this question will answer whether the date is from Yahweh with his approval or the devil.

These are questions I present to discuss, not argue about. I'm open either way.
If Eliyah is reading, I'd be interested in his answer to: "Is Yahweh offended if we choose to celebrate His Son's birthday?"

Greg

[This message has been edited by GregO (edited 11-12-2007).]

---

Hello, Greg:

At this time, I am off this board. This is exactly why I don't like to post here at all because of what I call, the Balaam syndrome. It's about twisting words and meanings that others state.

I never said that sacrifices were commanded by Yahweh, period. Not once did I say this, and those Scriptures that I posted didn't say that either. You're entirely missing the point. If you're missing the point that badly, I can see this is not a place to discuss the truth.

Actually, Greg, I am extremely thankful that Yahushua the messiah was born. However, his b-day was hidden specifically from those seeking to murder him. You can read about it in the Gospels. The early assembly didn't worry about celebrating his b-day either. They were thankful that he was born, yes, and many knew the time in which he was born, although they had the specific command of acknowledging his death--i.e., the Passover! The whole importance is this, his death, mainly because of what he did and will pass on the eternal inheritance, which also includes the importance of him even being born into a fleshly one of adam anyway. Obviously, one has to be born in order to die. It's the death part/the resurrection that is important for Yahushua. I can't believe you-all can't see this.

BTW, you can find out when his birth was by "deeply" studying the Scriptures. It was NOT on Dec. 25th. Yahushua was born in Oct., very early October.

quote:

---

Originally posted by naesimo:
Sharon,

Please don't let this stop you talking about your brother, we can start a different topic or you can make a prayer request for him. Please let us know what happens with your brother.

Shalom,
Renae

---

Shalom naisimo

You know, it might be a good idea to start a topic and discuss both sides of this subject.

I think it would be good use of differing perspectives.

I have developed my perspective and experience with a brother who has spent most of his life homeless and alcoholic AND spent years as the church receptionist.

My perspective:
When I stop engaging with people on their terms and stop enabling their behavior they start preaching sermons at me. I am learning to not be moved by it but I have seen christians are easily manipulated by these sermons.
They do things out of a twisted sermon rather than the direction of YHWH.

Classic example of manipulation by twisted sermons:

The twisted sermon:
Luk 4:3 And the devil said to Him, “If You are the Son of Elohim, command this stone to become bread.”
Messiah's sermon:
Luk 4:4 But יהושע answered him, saying, “It has been written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of Elohim.’ ”1 Footnote: 1Mt. 4:4, Dt. 8:3.
and you know the rest of the story.

Both using the scriptures - who is doing it rightly?
Well the answer is a no-brainer in the case of satan and Messiah but it gets a little fuzzier between humans. right?

Shalom
Sharon

I believe I understood your intent as being someone who is passionate about your beliefs and desire to obey Yahweh. Yahweh wants us hot or cold, and then he can work with us. It's good you are not lukewarm!

However, I'm not just going to take a scripture here and there and then apply it to my life until I'm sure it is confirmed by Yahweh that it is the correct understanding. I will read the links and carefully consider your point of view.

Like I posted on my last post, unless a person is sure about Christmas, it is better to keep it a private family affair and not attach Yahweh's name to it. The risk is claiming Yahweh has commanded us not to celebrate his Son's birthday, when perhaps he has not said anything about it to disapprove of it. The sin of Saul could be committed.

If we claim celebrating Christmas is against Yahweh's will, then we might as well question the decision to keep Hanukkah, which was not commanded in scripture either!

Or what about the 9 candle menorah used on Hanukkah? Do we support that tradition? It's not in scripture, and indeed, it wasn't 9 days but an 8 day miracle. Do we know what the meaning of 9 is verses 7 and 8 to confirm the "new" menorah being used?

I do not believe in the 9 candle menorah, but our family will use a seven candle menorah plus one extra candle that better symbolizes the event, from my point of view. We will start our own tradition, for the meaning is much clearer in my mind. But the basic Hanakkah tradition, we will carry on. Yeshua supported it. That's good enough for me.

But I'm not going to condemn all the Jews for using a nine candle menorah. I'm not going to turn the devil into the "bogey man" that has power at ever corner. If we walk in truth, he has no power over us. And if I am in the presence of those who believe in something different, I'm not going to worry about the devil "having power" to affect me. That gives him way to much power, and it turns Christianity towards "voo doo" arts, mimmicking the devil and his chants and ways, rather than Yeshua who obeyed and spoke the Word, and the devil left.

I'm just going to ignore the devil, and follow the Word...

We are so blinded. Do we see ourselves sometimes? When Yahweh speaks of Gentiles, these are referring to people who had NOT embraced the Bible or Yahweh and His commandments as Elohim. Then, we turn around and call a Bible believing Church "Gentile" and "pagan" and "worshipping demons"?

What are we doing?

We know what Paul and the Old Testament prophets were refering to when they spoke of "sacrificing to demons". They were referring to pagan worship of deity by sacrificing animals and making idols of wood, stone, and metals to worship. They Gentiles did this *KNOWING* what they were doing. The meat was something MORE than meat. The idol was something MORE than wood or stone to the pagans -- it was the way they worshipped and trusting in their false gods.

In contrast, if Christians are ignorant of what they are doing, trusting in and honoring their parents for the traditions they hold, how can we condemn them in the same way as pagans? They don't know what they are doing. The pagans did.

How can we get Christians to pay attention to the truth if we blast them with scripture and say they are worshipping devils? They are not going to listen to us, and they are going to think we are crazy. The only one getting glory is the devil.

And the true pagans, the nonbelievers, what do they think when they see this nonsense. That's right -- NONSENSE. Meaning, it makes no sense at all to them. It truly is BABYLON -- a confusion of language. (Thank you to the poster in here that shared that idea.)

Contrast this Babylon to a believer taking the Bible, and EVERY CHRISTIAN CHURCH said they respected whatever he believed, and honored his commitment to the Bible, no matter where he followshipped! Different views are tolerated without condemnation, knowing that each person will be taught by Yahweh in his time, and NO ARGUING!

Now, it's no longer Babylon. An unspoken language of love is communicated to the nonbeliever, and they could very interested in that.

NOw,if they KNOW what they doing and have done the research, well, then that's a whole different matter.

To be frank, and you said you like to be a straight shooter, all this bashing of tradition in Christianity is not respecting that people *do* hold up the Bible in honor of Yahweh, and they honor the fifth commandmnet by holding to the traditions of their parents out of love. They trust in their pastor to guide them correctly.

It's may truly be a big mistake they are making, but that is NOT the same thing as pagan worship condemned in the Bible. It is SIMILAR I agree on the outside, but when looking at the HEART, they are not the same.

Here's the difference:

The pagans *knew* they had rejected Yahweh.THe CHristians BELIEVE they are worshipping Yahweh. They *don't know* yet they have rejected Him.

How in the world can we ever find fault with these heart issues, that only Yahweh can see, of other Christians?

Something to consider.

Look at my FIRST SENTENCE...

"The ***flip side*** of this position is..."

This means everything I'm saying is the opposite of what you wrote about!

Sorry for the confusion.

I was holding your post up as the standard, and then contrasting it to the flip side or someone who thinks they ar following Yahweh's command, but are not--to those thinking they are doing Yahweh's will, but are not.

Why is everyone's defenses up in here? What's going on?

Greg

quote:

---

Originally posted by KittyCat:
Hello, Greg:

At this time, I am off this board. This is exactly why I don't like to post here at all because of what I call, the Balaam syndrome. It's about twisting words and meanings that others state.

I never said that sacrifices were commanded by Yahweh, period. Not once did I say this, and those Scriptures that I posted didn't say that either. You're entirely missing the point. If you're missing the point that badly, I can see this is not a place to discuss the truth.

Actually, Greg, I am extremely thankful that Yahushua the messiah was born. However, his b-day was hidden specifically from those seeking to murder him. You can read about it in the Gospels. The early assembly didn't worry about celebrating his b-day either. They were thankful that he was born, yes, and many knew the time in which he was born, although they had the specific command of acknowledging his death--i.e., the Passover! The whole importance is this, his death, mainly because of what he did and will pass on the eternal inheritance, which also includes the importance of him even being born into a fleshly one of adam anyway. Obviously, one has to be born in order to die. It's the death part/the resurrection that is important for Yahushua. I can't believe you-all can't see this.

BTW, you can find out when his birth was by "deeply" studying the Scriptures. It was NOT on Dec. 25th. Yahushua was born in Oct., very early October.

KC

---

KC (I like that btw),
Please don't leave the board! I appreciated what you said and understood where you were coming from.. and I agree with the points you made!

I too am thankful that Yeshua was born...and Yeshua even said to do PESACH in rememberance of him! I remember it from here:

Luk 22:19 He took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and gave to them, saying, "This is my body which is given for you. Do this in memory of me."

Even though a lot of people say this was just a pre-Pesach meal. It still was a meal to remember what Yeshua was about to do! He was to become the sacrificial lamb.

And we know that all the Holy Days of Yah are shadows of things to come and all intricately will be fulfilled in Moshiach and halleluYAH some already have been!

Technically, Yeshua's birth is more in line with being during Sukkot (Feast of Tabernacles). So if a person wanted to remember it..why not around then ?

I apologize that I didn't "stand up" and explain that I understood your point of view from your post on page 2 of this thread. So I am one that understands your point and appreciated your comments greatly. So please reconsidering going off the board.

quote:

---

Originally posted by squartucci:
Shalom naesimo

Yes, it is enabling.

He has to live on social security and cannot account for his money this month.
He has been drunk for 10 days straight except for the one day he checked into the hospital.
Anybody want to give to the cause?

I feel fine about my life and my relationship with my brother.

I am just trying to help you understand where I am coming from when I am oblivious to the demands of people to be treated a particular way or suffer the backlash of being called self-righteous hypocrite or Pharisee.
It is manipulative to me to be told how to act or speak.

Shalom
Sharon

---

Sharon,

We will pray for you and your brother.

If somebody says you are judging your brother without cause like a Pharisee then somebody else says: you can't judge them for judging your brother without cause, then somebody else is telling me how to act or speak towards the one unfairly judging my brother.

If you don't like Pharisee then I can use Torah Terrorist or Bible Bully. But other people get to say all kinds of rude, demeaning, abusive, patronizing, condescending, things but then they say you can't judge them for being rude, demeaning, abusive, patronizing, and condescending. But then they were those things because they were treating their brethren badly. So it seems like somebody is being told how to act or speak one way or another.

Shalom,
Renae

Shield of David got banned from this board at the end of June of this year. But as long as I can I will post things he sends me or asks me. But I could ask him to email you if you want.

(Greg) I don't think the argument should be whether or not the early first century Church celebrated the birth of Yeshua. Neither is the question about what day he was born, (I lean toward late September or early October), but the question is whether or not Yahweh is offended if we choose to celebrate His birthday today. I've been working through all the arguments pro and con the last few days, and I moved away all the fluff, and got to the heart of the matter, and the question that really needs to be answered. If we answer that question correctly, then most all the other controversies disappear.

Like I wrote, my wife will ask the Lord this specific question, and we hope He isn't silent, leaving us to discern from the Word our decision by reason, which I would reason very simply, "If Hanakkah is ok to celebrate when it's not commanded by Yahweh, then certainly Yahweh would not be upset about celebrating the birth of His Son, even if it is on the wrong date.

What he would be upset about is if we fight and argue over our family traditions, which is not the purpose of those traditions.

Hope you are feeling better about my posts, once you realize the context I put your post. If I misundestood you, please let me know where I did. Sorry if I did.

Greg

Greg

We haven't seen some of A's family for years because of alcoholism and other things. And it's hard to know if we're always doing the right thing. But I didn't mean to project our struggle onto your post and thought you were asking for help about what to do with your brother. I appreciate you saying if I want to talk about it from our perspective we can start a topic on it but not right now or maybe privately. Maybe later sometime we could start a topic on it. But I hope I didn't make you feel like i was saying it was easy to be close to an alcoholic especially if they are mean or abusive.

The twisted sermon:
Luk 4:3 And the devil said to Him, “If You are the Son of Elohim, command this stone to become bread.”
Messiah's sermon:
Luk 4:4 But éäåùò answered him, saying, “It has been written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of Elohim.’ ”1 Footnote: 1Mt. 4:4, Dt. 8:3.
and you know the rest of the story.

Both using the scriptures - who is doing it rightly?
Well the answer is a no-brainer in the case of satan and Messiah but it gets a little fuzzier between humans. right

Squart,

Thank you so much for bringing up this scripture. Please note the pattern Yahusha uses in dealing with the devil. Did he say, "Uh...that's not true, it really means this," and then quote scripture. Did he argue with him? No.
Did he disrespect him? No.

Here's the reason why he did what he did. Yahushua respected teh Word of Yahweh, even thought the devil was misapplying it. He simply responded again
from the Word what he believed, without saying, "You are wrong." How could he say "Devil, you are wrong," and at the same time NOT disrespect the Word of Yahweh Elohim? For what the devil said was the truth, the Word of Yahweh.

Think about it.

Notice in contrast when he rebuked Peter in Matt 16, last of teh chapter. Peter was NOT speaking the word of Yahweh, or quoting scripture, so he said, "Get thee behind me Satan, for you savor the things of man and not Elohim."

Oh, may we as believers honor the Word of Yahweh as much as Yeshua did!

I would like to know why David got banned and if it had to do with me, then give me a better late than never opportunity to publicly apologize and make peace with what happened.