Just a few things that have quickly crossed my mind.

FACT:

1. Yahushua did keep all the laws of the Torah that applied to him. (Since he wasn't a women, not all laws applied to him.)

2. Yahushua came to save "Sinners". (This does not just included, Jews and Gentiles, but all Mankind of all sorts and walks of life.)

3. Yahushua was accused of Breaking the Torrah by the Pharisess. (because of different things he did on the Sabbath ect.)

4. Yahushua commanded us to go out and wittness to all Nations. (NOT just the ones that keep the Torrah. But to ALL Nations.)(So far so good right? )

Now here's a Sticky question, please feel free to answer, if you'd like.

If I obey ALL the Torrah, (that apply to me or you) I celbrate the Feast, Keep the Sabbath, Use the True Names of the Father and Son and stay away from ALL TYPES of things that are PAGAN. Then who am I?

to share, or not to share… that is the question.

Person A: (resolves to do YHWH’s torah out of love for YHWH the best she knows)

Person B: I have a trouble!

Person A: what is the trouble?

Person B: (shares the trouble)

Person A: if I were in your place, this is what I’d do (shares scriptures)… but that’s just me…

Person B: you’re a Pharisee (shares scriptures)

Person A: huh?

This is how I see the way things are in here.

If you feel I'm being a Pharisee in my post, thank you for pointing it out to me, will try my best in being more gentler in my replies.

............

HeHoldsMyHand,

I want to apologise if my earlier post made you upset, that was not my intention. Please forgive me.

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Blessed be the Name of YHWH

huh?

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Originally stated by Bluesun
Another thing that I may add... some said, Yahushua ate with sinners... what I read, it was actually the sinners who came to Yahushua and enquired of Him, and He welcomed all who came to Him... He did not go into questionable places...

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In Luke 19, Yahushua invited Himself to the home of Zachaeus, chief publican and a sinner. According to the murmuring that took place about His decision in verse 7, I'm pretty sure Zachaeus' house qualified as a questionable place. Also, and I'm not positive about this, but when Messiah sent the 12 out to spread the Good News, I recall He admonished them not to go to the Gentiles or into any land of the Samaritans. I'm not entirely clear on the Samaritan issue or why He didn't want the disciples preaching in their land, but we do have record of Yahushua going there Himself and preaching the Kingdom.Questionable place? I'm not sure, but thought it worth looking at if any others would care to elaborate.

I also commend your resolve, Bluesun, in doing what you believe is right concerning this whole matter.

Naesimo:

While I firmly disagree with personally identifying Bluesun with a Pharisee, I 110% agree with the rest of your statements. Your post spoke VOLUMES to my heart and I cannot thank you enough for that. I have a double dilemma on December 25th in that it is both my son and my mother's birthday as well as my husband's very Pentecostal family flies in from all over to be together. My husband also is still very rooted in Christianity himself. All this to say that I was getting a little concerned with how to handle 12/25 and you (and the others) have helped tremendously in shedding light into the matter.

Lastly, and this is off topic, but I didn't realize (until you mentioned it in another thread) that Shield of David had left the group. I see you posting articles from him...does he have a website or a forum? I really enjoyed his contributions and would like to keep up with them, if so.

Thanks to all and may everyone do their best to honor Him as best they know how.

~Free

P.S. Please excuse any errors, I'm typing on my cell phone.

If anything I have shared of my own or David's has helped you then I will speak for both of us when I say glad to have been in His Service!

Here is the link to his livejournal: http://shieldofdavid.livejournal.com/

Hopefully I will be able to continue to post things he's written or will update here when he's added something to his site.

quote:

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Thanks to all and may everyone do their best to honor Him as best they know how.

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That sounds like something David would say too!

I can be nit picky about my spelling errors etc, but really I think they are required to post on message boards aren't they ???

Shalom,
Renae

quote:

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Originally posted by Im4YAH2:
It violates the Torah to participate in pagan customs.

How would you participate in this pagan day without following its customs. Is Yashuas birthdate in the Bible...no...even the day itself is plucked from a pagan date.

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Thank you so much for that link and, yes, spelling is important. On that note, I also want to apologize to Bluesun for misspelling her handle. I'm going back to edit it now.

Take care all,

Free

quote:

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Originally posted by FreeIndeed:
On that note, I also want to apologize to Bluesun for misspelling her handle. I'm going back to edit it now.

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no worries, free

Thank you for your apology. Yes, your reply did upset me, but that is not necessarily a bad thing. Yes I should get upset if any wrongdoing is pointed out to me, I should get upset if I am convicted of sin. Your reply sent me to my Father in prayer and seeking His will. Would I have done that if you hadn't said what you did? Not sure, but I expect not, especially not with the contrite heart that I did. So actually I want to thank you. I certainly feel better about the whole christmas thing than I did, but mostly because I sought His will, rather than making my own decision about it, which is what I think I did before. But, as I said, its a tough situation to be in, so I can only lean on YHWH for guidance.

So, hugs to you too!

Lindsey

My wife and I started the Biblical festivals this year. We discussed just tonight what to do about Christmas. Our objective is to teach our children not to be offended by anyone who believes in the Bible. We believe differently than many Christians. We believe that badmouthing any group of Christians who believe in the Bible is badmouthing Yahweh because He inspired it. Yes, there are many different beliefs, but this idea that someone with a different view of the Bible is from "the devil" only gives glory to Satan, not Yahweh.

Can you imagine how delighted Satan is by having another Christian label anyone who believes in the Bible as following Satan? Our Master said the wheat would exist in the kingdom, but He instructed us to leave them alone. By attacking the tares, it gives Yahweh a bad name and hurts the young believer. We choose NOT to do it.

This attacking comes from the belief that someone who teaches a different interpretion is from the devil, and that thought scares people to death. The truth is that fear is what gives the devil power, and if we realized that we are giving him the power and glory, we should stop it. The devil has no power over us unless we break Torah. So, we should be focusing on our own humble repentance, and if we break a commandment, then we quickly repent..like real fast, and seek not to repeat it.

With that said, our desire is to not compromise with the world, but also teach our children to respect the traditions of others. We want to establish traditions in our family that will bind our family to each other and to Yahweh. So, we have decided on approaching Christmas a certain way, and then we are praying to Yahweh that if it compromising with the world, to let him show us directly, rather than assuming something to be true just because of the scare tactics of others.

Our first discussion was the Christmas tree. We both like the tradition in and of itself, whether it is from pagan sources really doesn't matter to us. We do not believe Satan can have power over our lives through a Christmas tree, unless we believe he has it. We don't believe he has any power, unless we are breaking Torah. We are not aware of any scriptures about the traditions, other than what pagans did to worship their false gods, which we are not doing. We are cutting down a tree and decorating it to bind our family together through a tradition, which we enjoy as a family.

We like the lights, and the decorations, and the tree for the fun of it. We have been discussing different spiritual true principles we could teach through the experience.

So, we have decided to have both the Jewish traditions and Christian ones, but separate them and not mix them together. Hanukkah we are changing a few things for our family, for example. We are goign to use the 7 candle menorah with 1 extra singlecandle to represent the miracle of the temple. I don't believe changing the menorah to a 9 candle holder was approapriate. Although we will be out of step with the rest of the Jewish people, we really don't care. We will teach our children to respect it, but we do it differently. We are planning on starting all kinds of cool traditions for our family, adding others that are already on the Jewish books.

For Christmas, we plan to always go on vacation somewhere in which we spend it outdoors near the creations of yahweh. Our gifts will be exchanged during Hanukkah, not Christmas. We believe this will keep celebrating the birth of Yahusha separate from the materialistism of teh world, at the same time, not make our children feel strange not having gifts like everyone else does in December. Our current view is opening one gift per day during the Holiday Celebration. We like that idea because it spread out the joy over eight days, instead of just one. That is very exciting to us.

We also agree that whatever we do on December can not outstage the Biblical Holday recorded in scripture. We feel that giving gifts during the Hanukkah season and not Christmas will keep the priorities in focus. My wife is also interested in having a portion of the gifts actually made by the children, rather than just purchased, and giving gifts to others, and stuff like that.

What we DON'T want to do is ever condemn others for having Christmas traditions, or saying that they are from a Pagan source and therefore devil inspired and therefore we would be giving glory to him.

We intend to instill within the hearts of our childran an importance to pass on our family traditions because of what we have given to them, not because others have done it. My wife and I are very excited and happy about spending the next few decades experimenting and embracing what we enjoy and passing that joy onto our family. (We have been married only four years) One of the things we enjoy is the Christmas tree that we have turned into a family adventure by picking an ornament for each child that reminds us of the major things that child learned or experienced that year. We smile each time we take out the ornaments for the four short years we have been married. We assume that by the time our children start leaving home, of which we hope to have at least five, there won't be much room left on the tree to hold them all! To think how each year more memories of each child will be added!

So, we are not interested in throwing out such delightful traditions with a "pagen" tree, but, we have left it in prayer and if Yahweh says these things are compromising with the world, we will discard them. We haven't formally prayed about, but have made a decision of what we think would be pleasing to Him. If it isn't, He'll let us know.

We did this for Halloween and prayed about it, and we were instructed to throw the entire Holiday out of our lives, and we have. Yahweh is not the Elohim of the dead (ghosts and goblins), but of the living.

For Christmas, he has not given us the same direction, yet. Celebrating the birth of Yeshua cannot be a bad thing. It's how we do it that matters, is what we are currently thinking about it.

And Santa Claus, we are going to just wipe his name out of our house and not talk about him. When our children ask about him, we will tell him that is what the world has made up, and it's ok for others, but it's just a fantasy that is fun for them to play with at Christmas time. We don't want to go to the extreme and start talking about devils and demons simply because that brings attention to Satan, and not Yahweh. We will leave the tares alone, especially around young ears, and not make a big deal out of it.

If we are proactively filling our children's lives with traditions that are good and wholesome, rooted in the word, they won't have time to question the traditions of others, or desire them. We will hopefully teach them that is each family's traditions not to condemn, but to pass ours on because its our family, and we worship "Yahweh" and Him only in the way we live each day, a light to the world and other families that have other traditions that their parents have taught them. We will tell them that Yahweh's commandment is to honor fathers and mothers, which includes ALL families on earth, and so, we will. Even if we disagree and have different traditions.

I believe that will teach our children to honor the fifth commandment more than anything else we could do. If we could teach them that their friends are supposed to honor their parents just like they honor us, I believe that will diffuse any condemnation that we don't want coming out of them. On the other hand, if we also celebrate the birth of Christ in our way, incuding a Christmas tree, it can diffuse any flack coming the other directions from believers who honor the Bible. (We are doing it because we like it, not to be like the other families, by the way) We are hoping this approach will put up a shield of protection around our kids from unnecessary insults at our children at Christmas time.

Be wise as serpents, but harmless as doves.

Being married only four years, we have been learning the new festivals for a year, and we are absolutely exited about the future family traditions we can enjoy in our family and pass onto our children!

Greg

PS. If this is compromising with the world, we will change our plans as Yahweh shows us. If not, we are going forward with what we think is the wisest course to take to protect our children from the devil.

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Originally posted by Im4YAH2:
Here are just a few verses on the subject...

1Co 10:20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to Elohim: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
1Co 10:21 Ye cannot drink the cup of Yahuah, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

Lev 17:7 And they shall no more offer their sacrifices unto devils, after whom they have gone a whoring. This shall be a statute for ever unto them throughout their generations.

Deu 5:9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I Yahuah thy Elohim am a jealous Elohim, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,

Deu 32:16 They provoked him to jealousy with strange els, with abominations provoked they him to anger.
Deu 32:17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to Elohim; to els whom they knew not, to new els that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.

Why is paganism and anything linked to it so offensive?
Psa 106:38 And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood.

Do we want to offend Yahweh?
1Co 10:22 Do we provoke Yahuah to jealousy? are we stronger than he?

What will Yahweh do about it?
Nah 1:2 Elohim is jealous, and Yahuah revengeth; Yahuah revengeth, and is furious; Yahuah will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies.

Deu 32:21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not Elohim; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation

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Shalom Im4YAH2~

These are some great Scriptures that you have brought out here. I hope you don't mind, we changed the g*ds and the l***s.

I find it interesting to see here the mixed emotions on the subject of x-mas and the interesting thing about the mixed emotions is that some are firmly convicted that they will have no part in not only x-mas but other ritual celebrations of the world; while the others seem to be convicted of the opposite.

So I have to wonder seeing as how we're all believers why are we being convicted to opposite ways? I believe the answer lies in where the conviction is coming from. If we say our conviction comes from our heart, what Scripture do we have to back up that conviction? If we say our conviction comes from the Scriptures of what sin is, for sin is transgression of the law, whether the letter of the law or it's intended application, which certainly has Scriptural proofs.

There are many Scriptural indications that Yahuah is not pleased with the manners of the Gentiles. He said learn not the way of the heathen. Yahusha Himself said that houses would be divided and I believe most anyone who has come out of the world's traditional ritual holidays has experienced this in their own houses. I could give my story but it's probably the same story as anyone else's who have stopped participating in these rituals.

I have seen in this thread some of Shield of David's writings, which I believe are being misappropriated to this topic. I could be wrong, but I do not believe that Shield of David would imply that anyone who stands firm in the belief that coming out of her My people includes not participating in the world's traditional ritual holidays would be considered religiosity. Now those who still observe these traditional ritual holidays are not to be condemned, they are to be loved and not judged as individuals; although, there is a judgment in that these days are simply not Scriptural to be observed. Let us not forget what David said:

quote:

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by Shield of David
"Not one of you keeps the Law!" I can say the same thing here - not one of you keeps the Law. I don't either, but keeping the Law is not what makes me righteous or unrighteous, though practicing the letter does have a purpose, and I seek to do that as I learn and grow.

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I do not believe that Shield of David is nullifying the letter of the law; he does say right here it does have a purpose and he does seek to do it as he learns and grows. I agree with Shield of David the obedience to the law is not what saves us, it is our belief in Yahusha Who died for our sins; although, through belief in Yahusha we find ourselves becoming in obedience to the laws of the Torah even to the letter of the law. I believe the religiosity that David is speaking of is the high-mindedness and pride of keeping the letter of the law which can result in our condemning of others. Instead of loving others and having the same long-suffering and kindness, and compassion towards them as Yahuah has given us each and every day.

Romans 6:1-2:
What, then, shall we say? Shall we continue in sin, to let favor increase? 2 Let it not be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?

Now am I saying celebrating these days are sin, yes, they are for me especially seeing their origins. It has nothing to do with whether or not others keep these days. Its a matter of doing or not doing what is pleasing in the sight of Yahuah.

Here is one Scripture that I would like to add to the list above. Let us consider Iyob:

Iyob 1:4-5:
4 And his sons went and had a feast in the house of each on his day , and sent and invited their three sisters to eat and to drink with them. 5 And it came to be, when the days of feasting had gone round, that Iyob would send and set them apart, and he would rise early in the morning and offer burnt offerings – the number of them all – for Iyob said, “It might be that my sons have sinned and cursed Elohim in their hearts.” This Iyob always did.

It is not clear what "his day" means. I don't think it matters because they were not Yahuah's days and if they were Yahuah's days that they were keeping then why would Iyob see the necessity for offering burnt offerings for them? It does not appear that Iyob participated with his children.

Iyob 1:18-19:
18 While he was still speaking, another also came and said, “Your sons and daughters were eating and drinking wine in the house of their brother, the first-born, 19 and see, a great wind came from the wilderness and struck the four corners of the house, and it fell on the young men, and they are dead. And I alone have escaped to inform you!”

The question I have is would Yahuah have allowed hasatan to destroy Iyob's children if they were walking in His ways?

~Greg

You said:

quote:

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Now am I saying celebrating these days are SIN, yes, they are for me especially seeing their origins. It has nothing to do with whether or not others keep these days. Its a matter of doing or not doing what is pleasing in the sight of Yahuah.

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But Yahshua hung out with sinners, but that didn't mean He became one.

David also said this:

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Our flesh is not going to get any prettier in the sight of Elohim because we keep Sabbath, don't eat pork, or because we don't touch a woman in "niddah." There is no value in keeping those commandments IF, IF, IF, the keeping is our way of trying to make our flesh righteous. This is why:

Isaiah 64:6 KJVR But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

We are made clean via the blood of the new covenant, not following outward ordinances.

Acts 10:28 KJVR And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but Elohim hath showed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

Next time you are tempted to be out of some level of fellowship with someone over being "unclean," you should know it is not from Elohim - but a religious spirit having you depart to the right.

Some of you have little fellowship in person in your lives because you've gotten off track over practicing Torah, and why and for what reason. Hopefully Elohim is so gracious to correct you as Peter and the Jews in the first century. If you dis-fellowship over these things, you probably also have a condemning attitude towards people who trust in Messiah for justification and remission of sins, but don't keep certain commandments (most likely appointed times and dietary being the "biggies" in your eyes). Let us look at the reaction of the Jews when the promised Holy Spirit came on Romans just as readily/graciously as the Jews in Acts 2.

The issue in Acts 15 is over the same problem - Jews who believed in Messiah wanting to make everyone just like them, or saying they can't have life in Messiah. It is the "If you don't keep these commandments, you can't be in Messiah" argument. Paul and Barnabas were having a lot of trouble from these trouble makers (causers of strife among the brethren due to their causing arguments everywhere they went over legalities). So, they go to Jerusalem to get a decision from the apostles of the Lamb and pastor James, and the elders at Jerusalem. What was the decision? "We write this letter to you unclean gentiles to stop being so sinful and start keeping every letter of Torah now! Or you shall not have life in Messiah but be utterly destroyed!" No. That isn't even close to what they wrote. That sounds more like what a religious spirit would tempt us to think/say/write. The Holy Spirit led them in quite another direction for their decision.

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But I will email David and see if he spends time with mainstream Christians at some of their holidays and tell you what he says.

Shalom,
Renae

And to expect otherwise if really a waste of time. Scriptures can literally be discussed until Yeshua comes back to show why something shouldn't be done but if a person as an individual doesn't feel convicted by it in their OWN mind...then they will do what they think is justified.

Personally, I don't get why people act so suprised by this fact.

This is why it's probably a good idea to tread lightly when discussing the opposite end of the spectrum in subjects such as these unless a person doesn't mind being labeled a "Pharisee" because inevitably when you start to tell someone they shouldn't do something they feel justified in doing... that's what it turns into.. you are a Pharisee trying to infringe on their freedom...freedom in what exactly is another story...

But I have to say this is all rather interesting to watch...

Thank you for being so nice and open because alot of the things you "admitted" to are going to open you up for "dissection with a blunt little tool" and Satan is prob salivating waiting for his minions to turn you over to him so he can devour you.

We say Shabbat and Feasts are Biblical, not "Christian", "Jewish", etc. When we first had to break it to my family that we weren't going to keep the traditions of Christmas anymore and why their reaction was that we were judging them, not just hearing us say the reasons why we felt convicted to stop keeping these traditions in our own home. Then they said if that's the way you feel about Christmas don't even come over here or anything because you make me uncomfortable in my own home. And so we said we don't care what you do in your house just don't try to make us put up a tree or whatever. So then when it came time for the party we just didn't want to go because some people were saying we were Jews like we were denying Messiah and His birth, and that we were in an Old Testament Cult or Seventh Day Adventists or Jehovah Witnesses, it was unclear what exactly they were thinking we were. So we didn't want to go over there and try to convince them to keep Feast of Tabernacles (which is when we believe He was born) or anything but we thought they might try to "save" us from being cursed under the law or brainwashed by a cult or whatever.

And like when atheists or Jews or Kwanza observers say don't put up this or that Christmas decoration they say they are trying to remove Christ and Christmas from this country. Like the decorations or day IS Him or something, I'm not sure? Or they say you can't say something inclusive of all holidays this time of year like "Happy Holidays" you gotta say "Merry Christmas".

But I think we could visit with them this year, because I think they say now it's a free country (for now) and they don't think we are in danger any more.

Shalom & love,
Renae

I lean towards Scott Pecks explanation of the stages of growth.

People are in these different stages so it would explain their different perspectives on this and any other subject.
Which can help to understand how many views can exist and be right.

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The four stages

Scott Peck postulates that there are four stages of human spiritual development:

* Stage I is chaotic, disordered, and reckless. Very young children are in Stage I. They tend to defy and disobey, and are unwilling to accept a will greater than their own. Many criminals are people who have never grown out of Stage I.
* Stage II is the stage at which a person has blind faith. Once children learn to obey their parents, they reach Stage II. Many so-called religious people are essentially Stage II people, in the sense that they have blind faith in God, and do not question His existence. With blind faith comes humility and a willingness to obey and serve. The majority of good law-abiding citizens never move out of Stage II.
* Stage III is the stage of scientific skepticism and inquisitivity. A Stage III person does not accept things on faith but only accepts them if convinced logically. Many people working in scientific and technological research are in Stage III.
* Stage IV is the stage where an individual starts enjoying the mystery and beauty of nature. While retaining skepticism, he starts perceiving grand patterns in nature. His religiousness and spirituality differ significantly from that of a Stage II person, in the sense that he does not accept things through blind faith but does so because of genuine belief. Stage IV people are labelled as mystics.

Scott Peck argues that while transitions from Stage I to Stage II are sharp, transitions from Stage III to Stage IV are gradual. Nonetheless, these changes are very noticeable and mark a significant difference in the personality of the individual.

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He also proposes that the latter stages are more tolerant and understanding of the younger stages (BEEN THERE DONE THAT) but there can be great mistrust and suspicion of the older stages by the younger stages.

Kinda like the gap that exists between teenagers and adults.