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No, a true believer would have compassion and their heart would ache and they would put their arm around the weaker believers back and help them with words of tenderness. Not a slap on the back and a Hey whats wrong with you? Why can't you understand all of this right now.

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We are all hypocrites. Just not all of use are humble enough to admit it.

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A humble heart that cries out for the deliverance of the lost sheep would say something more like this I would think:

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My hope is that you will see what your words do to others here that are weaker in their understanding of His Word.

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Do not judge and you will not be judged.

It is pretty apparent where you are in your walk by those who have been where you are.
YET
You spend more time on this internet telling us how we should relate to you and other "chief sinners and Heathen" and "freaks and outcasts" then you appear to spend in finding out how to get along in your own journey.

I say this from personal experience because I have a brother who is an "outcast" yet I retain a relationship with him.

He is constantly trying to tell me how to relate to him.

Just the other day, he called me in a drunken stupor and went on and on about his calamities and the stupid bank, and the stupid landlord, blah, blah blah.

I listened in silence.

Then he began to rail on me for my silence!

and he literally said " If I had called you on the suicide hotline would you just sit there in silence?"

I reminded him I am NOT the suicide hot line.
I don't have the script.
I am that I am
and all his expectations of how I am supposed to treat him is just attempts to manipulate me for his own purposes. His ego.

He was not seeking wisdom, he is seeking sympathies and someone to try to argue and defy the voice in his own head that is telling him that he is worthless or weak or ...
I have found that to be a futile exercise because the condemning and accusing voice in his head ALWAYS wins out.

I do not have a enough time in the day to tell you how important and valuable you are to YHWH and pump you up only to have your own mind tear you back down and attack everyone else around you with those misconstrued concepts.

You are going to have to find it out on your own so stop trying to tell us how we need to treat you in order for you to FEEL loved or accepted.

You are loved and accepted but your ego is going to take a beating.

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Originally posted by squartucci:
Shalom adoniyah and naesimo
Do not judge and you will not be judged.

It is pretty apparent where you are in your walk by those who have been where you are.
YET
You spend more time on this internet telling us how we should relate to you and other "chief sinners and Heathen" and "freaks and outcasts" then you appear to spend in finding out how to get along in your own journey.

I say this from personal experience because I have a brother who is an "outcast" yet I retain a relationship with him.

He is constantly trying to tell me how to relate to him.

Just the other day, he called me in a drunken stupor and went on and on about his calamities and the stupid bank, and the stupid landlord, blah, blah blah.

I listened in silence.

Then he began to rail on me for my silence!

and he literally said " If I had called you on the suicide hotline would you just sit there in silence?"

I reminded him I am NOT the suicide hot line.
I don't have the script.
I am that I am
and all his expectations of how I am supposed to treat him is just attempts to manipulate me for his own purposes. His ego.

He was not seeking wisdom, he is seeking sympathies and someone to try to argue and defy the voice in his own head that is telling him that he is worthless or weak or ...
I have found that to be a futile exercise because the condemning and accusing voice in his head ALWAYS wins out.

I do not have a enough time in the day to tell you how important and valuable you are to YHWH and pump you up only to have your own mind tear you back down and attack everyone else around you with those misconstrued concepts.

You are going to have to find it out on your own so stop trying to tell us how we need to treat you in order for you to FEEL loved or accepted.

You are loved and accepted but your ego is going to take a beating.

Shalom
Sharon

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He was not seeking wisdom, he is seeking sympathies and someone to try to argue and defy the voice in his own head that is telling him that he is worthless or weak or ...

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You are going to have to find it out on your own so stop trying to tell us how we need to treat you in order for you to FEEL loved or accepted.

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Thank goodness your brother is only annoying you and not crying out for your help.

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Originally posted by AdoniYah:
Thank goodness your brother is only annoying you and not crying out for your help.

[This message has been edited by AdoniYah (edited 11-12-2007).]

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Shalom Adoniyah

Oh yes, he is crying out for help.

What do you think I should do for him?

Hey, how about I give him YOUR phone number?
You could surely help him.

Thank you for your posts about Christmas, it is an interesting topic discussion, and important.

We have always celebrated Christmas, but we have just learned about the feastival laws for a year. We want to teach our children not to condemn or judge others for celebrating Christmas, for we might teach them to commit a greater sin than by the practice itself by judging and condemning others who also believe in the Bible, yet don't have the understanding of the Jewish ways.

We don't want our children to judge their hearts because some are truly honoring it because they love Yahushua.

Children are very simple minded and don't know all the "theological" ramifications we are talking about. How do we teach them to respect the Bible and that it is from Yahweh, and respect anyone's view who quotes from it --FOR HIS SAKE, not ours?

How do we teach them the devil is not the "bogey man" hiding in each ***Christian*** church ready to pounce on us as followers of Yaushua? How do we teach our children not to be afraid nor condemn others who believe in the Bible, but have different views about holidays?

We think our approach handles this issue. Any advice would be approciated.

I'm looking at the articles posted, and don't want to argue with anyone over scripture. If Eliyah wants to be strict and have no Christiams celebration based on his view of scripture, we are fine with that.

But our view may be slightly different. Here is just an example of one scripture -- Jeremiah 10:1-6 that is quoted as though it is refering to "christmas trees". Maybe that's true. However, one can also read these verses in full context, and see that it could be referring not to Christmas trees, but to the idols and gods made out of trees, silver, and gold and then the Gentiles bowed down and prayed to them regarding the "signs of the heavens". It could be viewed that these carved images were idols in a much different sense than a Christmas tree as our family uses one. As I explained, it is used for pure enjoyment of the colors and lights that are pleasing to look at.

My wife and I tend to think that placing Yahweh's curses on such an activity witout judging the intent of the believer gives a whole lot more power to the devil than he actually deserves. No Christian that I know of treats their Christmas tree like the Pagans treated their idols of stone, wood, and metals as recorded in Jeremiah 10.

Please advise.

We are not here to argue and disagree to defend our view as "the right way". We are open to change if Yahweh so directs us. We have the issue on the table (to move to the altar if necessary) as an issue for Him to teach us. We believe that the most important thing to teach our children is to diffuse the power of the devil, to remove the "bogey-man" mentality, and not judge or condemn others who believe in (or claim to believe in) Yahweh's Word. We want to lift up the Word as High as it can go, not tear it down in any way!

Remember, when Yeshua was sent by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by Satan, He didn't try to cast him out, neither did he argue with him, neither did he condmen him, neither did he say, "you are wrong in your view of scripture!". Rather. He just quoted the Word He believed in, and finally, Satan gave up and left.

The Word my wife and are are standing on is portion of the Word:

"Be wise as serpents, but harmless as doves."

We believe that some Messianics are not focused on being "wise as serpents" in their "attitude" and "approach" to the Holidays, and indeed, that attitude is causing unnecessary divisions and squabbling in the kingdom. Our attitude should be reflecting a positive, warm, and loving glow to attract the interest of others to the light. It should not be an abrasive "thus sayeth the Lord your Christmas traditions are evil." And to consider, that is one Bible believer to another.

It must send chills down the back of any nonbeliever to make the decision to never pick up a Bible!

So, my wife and I stand on: "Be wise as serpents, but harmless as doves."

How do we apply this instruction of Yahusha in terms of our precious children's minds that don't care about the adult aruging that goes on over Christmas traditons in the kingdom?

We think we have come to a wise solution, and as such, at the same time respect Eliyah's or anyone else in their approach to it, without condemnation.

Comments?

Greg

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Originally posted by squartucci:
Shalom Adoniyah

Oh yes, he is crying out for help.

What do you think I should do for him?

Hey, how about I give him YOUR phone number?
You could surely help him.

Shalom
Sharon

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Truly listen. Surely he is saying more than blah, blah, blah. Sometimes people ramble because they don't know how to get to the point with few words. Or they are frightened to say what is really bothering them and try to slip it in there within the pile of words hoping we can dig it out.

I don't know your brother. You do.

I did not say what I did in my last post lightly. You brought your brothers experience to the board not me.

adoniyah at hopeville dot net

Do you think it is a sin to create our own holiday on Christmas? I would be interested if we could create our own holiday with no history.

Our email is olsongc@yahoo.com.

Since Greg is sensitive to the number of women on the board, and he wanted first to make sure it was OK with me to provide our email, and to also communicate that any woman contacting him privately will actually be speaking to me and him together.

Sorry didn't respond sooner, but I have been out of town.

When I was talking about sacrifices in using those Scriptures that I was using in 1 Cor. For example:

1Co 10:19 What then do I say, that an idol is anything, or that an idolatrous sacrifice is anything?
1Co 10:20 But the things the nations sacrifice, "they sacrifice to demons, and not to eloah." Deut. 32:17 But I do not want you to become sharers of demons...

What I was trying to say is that there is more to sacrificing that the slaughter of an animal. There is also a figurative meaning to sacrifice. Even in our English understanding this day and time, we understand different uses of the word "sacrifice." Like, for instance, say someone is discussing how they sacrificed to send their child to college. Well, we would probably understand this to mean that they gave us many things that they wanted to do or things that they wanted to buy and went without it so they could afford to send their child to college.

Look at this Scripture:

Psa 4:5 Offer the sacrifices of righteousness and trust in Yahweh.

How does one offer sacrifices of righteousness and trust in Yahweh?

Psa 27:6 And now my head shall be lifted up above my enemies, my encirclers, and I will offer sacrifices of joy in His tabernacle; I will sing, yea, I will sing praises to Yahweh.

What are sacrifices of joy?

Psa 51:16 For you do not desire sacrifice, or I would give it; You do not delight in burnt offering.
Psa 51:17 The sacrifices of elohim are a broken spirit; a broken and a contrite heart, O elohim, You will not despise.

These are just a few to think about. There are indeed different kinds of sacrifices one can give to Yahweh. When you do Yahweh's will and not your own will, you are actually sacrificing your will for him. And Yahweh tells those joined to him not to follow the way of the heathen. This is his will. It's what is right in his eyes. This is what I meant, but I didn't have the time to post another post on it.

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You are going to have to find it out on your own so stop trying to tell us how we need to treat you in order for you to FEEL loved or accepted.
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Thank goodness your brother is only annoying you and not crying out for your help.

Sharon,

If your brother was seeking you then maybe he was seeking wisdom since He knows you belong to Messiah and He dwells in you. If he has voices in his head telling him that he is worthless or weak some people may can tell you how or tell you someone who can cast out demons. If we love others the way we want to be loved I guess people should figure it out what we need by the way we love them. But if you don't feel like your brother loves you maybe that's why it's hard for you to understand what he needs from you. I wish I knew something to say because people have said hurtful things to me when they were drunk. I guess all you can do is try to put yourself in his position and ask WWMD? But don't feel bad you brought it up on the board because I bet people here can help your brother.

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Originally posted by AdoniYah:

I don't know your brother. You do.

Shalom

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Shalom

EXACTLY!

that's my point.

He called me while I was writing this to you.

He said "Can you help me? I overdrew my bank account."

He is drunk

Should I "help"?

Shalom,
Sharon

Does your heart tell you that giving your brother money would be enabling him or do you see it as charity that could help witness Messiah to him? After you pray about what to do if Messiah tells you to help him with money I'm sure people here would do what they can to help you meet your brother's needs the best they can and give you emotional support while you try to help your brother the best you can. But I think you should take your quiet time with Father to see what He tells you then you can tell us how we can help you help your brother and whatever Father tells you to do we will support that.

I hope that I am making you feel better about talking about your brother on the board and that you don't feel like I'm telling you what to do. If you feel like I'm trying to be nosy and bossy you can say so but really I want to help both of you if I can.

Please don't let this stop you talking about your brother, we can start a different topic or you can make a prayer request for him. Please let us know what happens with your brother.

Shalom,
Renae

By: Shield of David

We neither avoid family and friends on those days (Dec 25 or Sundays) nor make a point to see them for those celebrations. All of our family and friends know we don't celebrate Christmas.

We are not in the practice of cutting confessing believers in Messiah off, regardless of what group they are labeled in, because of disagreement on these issues, though we used to, until corrected by the Ruach and Word.

Our own practice is Sabbath and scriptural feasts as we are led about how to tell time, and none of the secular or catholic originated holidays or Roman calendar.

There is certainly a purpose for all of Torah, and we therefore seek to learn wisdom and practice such from Torah. We believe our actions speak louder than words and that isolationism is not what Yahshua taught by words or actions for us to follow. People will not see his love through us if we are off in our own "holy" corner by ourselves.

We do not support religious pride of knowledge of such things, when a believing person or group thinks themselves superior due to religious knowledge and practice, neither do we support what I would term Torah Terrorism. lol. Some may get the joke and know what I'm talking about and others may not. If it offends anyone it probably is because they participate in Torah Terrorism - Terrorizing people and other believers with Torah. You know...rock throwing finger pointers who brow beat people with Torah.

Such is not like Yahshua. He is our example we should be seeking after, to follow. He fellowshipped with those Pharisees called "sinners" and they accused him of wrongdoing because of this. They were "holier than though" isolationists, which has become common in the SNM. We do not support this and encourage those practicing such to recheck themselves, including a thorough search for leaven (pride) within, and to re-examine the example of Yahshua who never spoke of or practiced such, but was openly compassionate to all people and accepted any who would accept him.

When we are walking securely (perfect love casts out fear) in faith, we do not need others to accept our practices, understand them fully, or force them on others, lest we then isolate ourselves. Such is the reaction of insecurity which is the other side of the coin with pride. Pride and insecurity go together as the flip sides of the same root problem.

We have great relationships and much favor now with many other believers who disagree on us on different issues, but respect us and seek to fellowship with us. When this is lacking from the new covenant believer's life, there is a problem in self, not others, though self will argue it is others. We fell into that trap for a while when we first partook of the SN/HR movements. It seems a common issue believers in such are struggling with.

(Greg) The flip side of this position is making "self sacrifices" which were never commandmed by Yahweh. For example, King Saul did not obey Elohim and He decided to save some cattle and animals to bring back from the spoils of war, and for the purpose to sacrifice to Yahweh, with "good intentions". For this action, we was removed from being king of Israel and eventually replaced by David.

Now, if Yahweh never commanded any believer to give up Christmas traditions, but they have concluded this on their own, then they are actually committing the sin of Saul. It would be better to make the choice independent of "Yahweh's will", and make it a "personal choice", rather than placing His name on it wrongfully.

Sometimes, Yahweh commands in a matter. Sometimes he leaves it to our discretion.

The worst kind of sacrifice is self-sacrifice when we think Yahweh has told us to do something, plopping his name out of the sky on our actions, when it was our desire, not his, in the first place!

Pesonally I'm not convinced that Yahweh has "commanded" us to stop celebrating His Son's birthday on Dec 25th. I'm not sure he cares what day it was. Sometimes we celebrate our own kid's birthday on a different day. How we celebrate it, however, would be what is most important. It makes sense that if Yahweh established a weekly sabbath to celebrate is resting from His creation, it seems reasonable he wouldn't be upset if we celebrate His creation of His Son's body.

Does Yahweh have to command every facit of our lives? If He didn't command us to celebrate His Son's birthday, does this mean we are committing sin if we do? Or on a day different than it actually was, because we don't have the exact date?

Obviouisly, Eliyah and others have already addressed the issue, but our family hasn't, and we are not the type of people that say, "Well, that person said it, so let's do it his way." That's the easy way.

If anyone here has done that, and they just say,"I believe his view", then you are missing the whole point of spiriutal growth and learning. Certainly, Eliyah is being open minded to correction himself, and each person should be doing the same thing. I'm sure, Eliyah is leaving room and flexibility to change if Yahweh corrects him.

So, the more difficult path is to appoach any problem with an open mind, look at all the questions and issues, gather facts, then make a decision after the fact-finding mission is completed--rather than sailing along under the wings of someone else who is doing all the work for you.

For me, regarding this issue, I'm one to see things in "numbers" at times when the obviousl is presented, since Yahweh has a heart for numbers. I look at December 25. It converts to 12 and 25.

Let's look further.

We see the 12 commandments which are the 10 commandments plus the 2 great commandments that are etched into the body-- 10 fingers on 2 hands. That is 12.

The 25 is obvious, which is the two tablets of stone given to Moses with 5 commandments on each. 2 times 5 equals 10.

Finally, 2 plus 5 is 7, which takes us back to the Sabbath rest from creation.

Now, whether or not that "date" 12-25 was chosen by the devil to confuse us, knowing the truth set in numbers, or by God to confirm His approvaal of it, is the question to discern.

If it's from the devil, we should flee from it.

But if it is Yahweh approving it's OK by the date, then celebration of the day should lead us back to keeping the 12 commandments of Yahweh, and resting in Him and His 10 commandments, or 7.

If it doesn't lead and inspire one to keep the 10 commandments of yahweh, which answer depends on each family's tradition and attitude, then the practice and celebration is not approved by Yahweh.

I'm leaning toward the latter view, but open to change on a dime if proven otherwise.

Still in the fact finding stage.

The date 12-25 makes it clear...it's either from Yahweh or the devil...the issue of celebrating the birth of His Son on that day. Man himself would not have been clever enough to know the meaning of the numbers and plan for it to just "happen" that way.

Finally, the real question then to answer behind all the many other "question" I've asked her is this: Is Yahweh offended for celebrating the creation of His Son's body?

If the answer is no, then whether we celebreate it on Dec 25 or any other day of the year doesn't matter.

The answer to this question will answer whether the date is from Yahweh with his approval or the devil.

These are questions I present to discuss, not argue about. I'm open either way.
If Eliyah is reading, I'd be interested in his answer to: "Is Yahweh offended if we choose to celebrate His Son's birthday?"

Greg

THis is so cool. I just got off the phone with my wife, and we have the specific question to ask Yahweh:

"Heavenly Father are You offended if we choose to celebrate Your Son's birthday?"

I'm better at getting answers from Yahweh through the Bible, but my wife is better at getting the "yes/no" revelations from his mouth. He may not answer, and may be silent, but if He does, then we have our clear answer.

By the way, this is how the Urim and Thummim was used. The priest would present a "yes/no" question to Yahweh Elohim, and then Elohim would answer it by one of the stones illuminating, and the other not. (I read this from a very old Bible Commentary, and if you want my source, I can't remember it. Sorry.)

So, our approach has now narrowed our quest down to one specific question. If Yahweh says he is offended, then we scrap Christmas and burn it on the altar.

If He says, "No," then our family approach will be perfect. We'll keep it the same date, because it has so much meaning in it, and we don't know the true date. We will get together as a family outside the home, around his "nature", and on that day and worship him in the Word and turn it into a day of Praising Yahweh for His Son. The gift exchange will have already taken place during Hanukkah, so it CAN'T be mixed with any kind of materialism or worldly values.

We will give Yahweh "gifts" to HIM on that day, not to each other, just as it was done in the Bible with the wise men--though it wasn't on his birthday, but years later. Our question on that great day will be, "What gift can we give to Yahweh today for the gift of His Son?" What a perfect and holy environment for children to see, having got past "their gifts" during Hanukkah!

My guess is that he will say, "No, I'm not offended", because the scriptures attest that Yahushua participated in Hanukkah, which indeed, Yahweh was never commanded to hold such a celebration in scripture. So, keeping in step with Hanukkah, surely Yahweh's creating his Son is no less of a miracle to celebrate.

Whatever answer we get, we will probably keep it to ourselves, lest the "revelation" cause controversy with others.

We can, however, provide the path we have used to arrive at the answer, and you are welcome to use it or some other way to receive your answer from Yahweh that works best for you and your family.

This is very exciting, because my wife has a remarkable gift to hear from the Ruach. I'm hoping He will answer and not be silent.

Greg