I am basically in agreement with all (or at least most) of what you have said. I'll just make some explanatory comments below

quote:

---

Originally posted by leejosepho:
Misunderstanding
1) Mis-taking the meaning of something; misconception; error;
2) Disagreement; difference; dissension; sometimes a softer name for quarrel.
The 1st def. is what i had in mind in this situation--CB
Maybe the fault here is mine, for I had assumed your “request” (your sentence that was not actually a question even though it did have a question mark at its end) was merely rhetorical:
“...please show us the Scripture that says it's only OK to pronounce the Almighty's Name if you have ‘100% knowledge of the EXACT pronunciation’?”
In other words, I assumed you already knew there is no such Scripture, and on that thought, I saw your preceding “Based on what you wrote above” as evidence that you were acting as if (or at least assuming) Shimson was “saying” (or that he might happen to believe) something he had not even implied ...
... but if I am wrong about any or all of that, please let me know.

---

And you're correct, it was rhetorical, in that i was pretty sure there was no such Scripture that i was requesting. However, i halfway expected Shimson to come up with one that he interpreted that way; and actually, he did just that, although i totally disagree with his interpretation of it.

quote:

---

Either way, however, a common communication problem among us here is not only an occasional “mis-taking the meaning of something” (someone’s simple mis-hearing of what was actually said), but that we also then sometimes proceed (just move right along) while at times even “repeating” (and sometimes also wanting others to wrongly “hear”) what we have allegedly (or even spinningly) “heard” before making certain we had actually “heard” what was originally said (or at least intended).
For example: You had not been accused of anything, yet for whatever reason, you evidently “heard” an unverified accusation ... and possibly wanted others to know you were not guilty ... and please know I make no accusation(s) while sharing those simple thoughts.

---

By saying "C'mon Chuck, Shimson never said that", it implied (at least to me) that you thought that i said that he did say that. In many cases we are discussing what we assume someone believes, or the assumed meaning of what they said, rather than the exact words they used. One reason for this "assuming" is that their exact words are unclear or don't make sense in the first place. It's easy to become confused, when basically speaking 2 different languages.

quote:

---

Prior to all of that, however, I can see how some of Shimson’s wordings could have helped to “set the stage” for whichever kind of “misunderstanding” has appeared here ...

quote: Copied & pasted from Shimson's post of 3/21/05 @ 7:18pm:
There is no command in the Hebrew text that I MUST ATTEMPT to pronounce The Name of The Most High when there is not 100% knowledge of it EXACT pronunciation pre-dialect shifts and pre-dispersion.

In my own opinion, it could have been “communicatively better” to have said something like this (rather than having one thought confuse the other):
“There is no command in the Hebrew text that [anyone] MUST ATTEMPT to pronounce The Name of The Most High, [and for just as long as] there is not 100% knowledge of its EXACT pronunciation ..."
For in fact, and as I believe you had likely intended to point out (at least in part), Scripture does not indicate whether or not it is okay to (only) pronounce the Almighty's Name when (or until) someone has “100% knowledge of the EXACT pronunciation”.

---

quote:

---

It is not my intent to be hard on you, Chuck, but I would here "ask" if you now see the source of this current “misunderstanding” (by either definition) ... and I have actually just made only a statement.

---

quote:

---

The Masorah of Har Sinai and "religion" (sets of beliefs and practices) have virtually nothing in common ... and for the religious, Torah is nearly impossible to understand.

---

The following is to Shimson:

One thing i got from your last response is that you believe "Jews" have different laws to live by than Israelites and other non-Jews. I base this on your correcting me for using the word "anyone" where you had used the word "I", and seemed to imply (oops, i almost said "said") that it was the Jews that were commanded not to use the Name of YHWH, but that it was OK for everybody else.

My understanding of Scripture (Isa.56 and others) is that if a "stranger" wanted to "join themselves to YHWH", they would come under the same laws as natural born Israelites (not just Jews). So for those wanting to follow YHWH and learn His ways, there aren't different laws for different peoples. Jews must give up Judaism to follow YHWH; Israelites must give up Christianity (or whatever) to follow YHWH; and the non-Israelite pagans must give up their false gods to follow YHWH.

YHWH bless. Have a good Sabbath

------------------
Chuck Baldwin

quote:

---

Originally posted by chuckbaldwin:
The hilighted part of your words above reveals another reason for misunderstanding. The interspersing of various "foreign" (I assume Hebrew?) words amid an otherwise English message makes the message almost impossible to understand ...
I have to either ignore those sentences, or make some UNeducated guess as to what the words mean. I've complained about this on other forums, and it looks like something i'll just have to live with (and remain ignorant) ...

---

There is actually at least one more option, Chuck, and just as we should do anyway even when all the words *are* English are we still do not understand:

Ask!

At least, that is how I found out "The Masorah (teaching) of Har (mount) Sinai" amounts to what was there conveyed.

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChrisDixon:
Shalom Shimson,

I am well thankyou, are you, thanks for your reply.

As far as the mis-pronounciation of Yahweh's name being seen as lifting up His name to falsehood a bit harsh don't you think. Yahweh made a commandment for the pronounciation of His name and your sin would not be forgiven if you got it wrong. Thats the way it comes across to me and I'm sure that commandment really has nothing to do with the pronounciation of His name but on how you use it (but maybe I'm wrong).

---

Greetings Chris,

The issue here is that the Hebrew text is clear that for a JEW lifting up the Name of Elohim to any kind of falsehood won't be forgiven. The Hebrew text is clear on what it means in that regard. It is also clear in the Hebrew text that calling on The Name of Elohim is more than a pronunciation. For us, JEWS, the idea that it all it means is a foriegn concept. Yet, as I mentioned before we pray three times every day that Elohim will raise up the knowledge of EVERY aspect of Himself, YHWH ehhad ushmo ehhad. Yet, we [I am only talking about JEWS] are commanded not to lift up false reports of His Name because this is the standard He has placed on the matter. My previous posts explain this concept in more detail, of what caused the current situation. As I mentioned to Chuck if you believe that a Jew should pronounce The Name of Elohim, pray to Elohim to reveal it with 100% accuracy. We pray for that daily.

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChrisDixon:
The reason I mentioned about adonai and Baal is there is a commandment about the way Yahweh accepts worship, about incorporating pagan things into our worship of our Heavenly Father. Baal was I think specifically mentioned so wouldn't their title also fall into this catergory. The reason I mentioned about my church was unless we use His name with His title do people who we are talking about and are we glorifying His name.

---

The words adonai and ba'al, are not pagan terms in origin. They are words that already existed in Semitic language and evolved into pagan worship. As I mentioned Yah as also the name of a pagan deity worshiped by Egyptians and Semitic peoples. Trust me the pagan connection thing in terms of words that were originally neutral Semitic words doesn't hold much water. Especially since Elohim Himself called Himself a ba'al to Israel in several different places in Hebrew. A few instances are the following.

1) Genesis 20:3 Elohim calls Abraham the "ba'al" to Sarah.
2) Nakhum 1:2 Elohim called a "ba'al of fury"
3) Isaiah 62:4 The land called a "Beulah"
4) Jerimiah 3:14 YHWH says that He is a "Ba'al" to Israel "i.e. married"
5) Isaiah 54:5 Elohim is called the "maker and ba'al" of Israel

These are only a few places that show that the Hebrew text is the basis for understanding these matters, not a particular theology.

The following web-site may give you further insight on this matter.
http://www.graftedin2torah.org/Name/SN_Soto1.htm

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChrisDixon:
As far as I know Allah means simply god thats what all the muslim people I know call him the trouble is that most use this title for Yahweh as well and allot beleive that they are the same deity and this is the problem which I think will become more evident when the anti-messiah comes.

I just think that our Father should be kept seperate from all other "deities" in both Name and titles as well.

Thanks again Shimson for your reply it was enlightening.

May Yahweh bless you
Chris

---

Actually the Muslim claim is not as much about saying that Yahweh and Allah are the same, as I mentioned before the Koran talks about The Name Yod-Hey-Waw-Hey. Muslims believe that Jews took the Torah and changed in numurous places and caused the original text to be lost. They believe that muhammid was set to set things straight and that their interpretation of allah is the ORIGINAL way of interpreting things. They say allah, not because it is a name, but it is the distinction of what they believe from everything else. Muslims don't use allah in place of anything, they are simply using the lanaguage of the Koran. The Koran uses allah, no different than how the Torah also uses Elohim. Muslims who know Arabic know allah is not what they consider to be the name, they can tell you what they believe the name to be, as I mentioned before.

The issue of someone not knowing what a person believes is something that is derived solely from words and pronunciations, but character. If all you needed was a pronunciation then there would be no need for a Torah to deal with character. Besides I know people who have met Sacred Namers and had no idea what they were talking about. You can find that no matter how you go about things.

Once again as a Jew the Hebrew text deals with more than names and titles. It deals with character. The character of a Benei Yisrael is supposed to be easy enough for a person to know WHO they worship, without a word being said. As I mentioned before I have yet to meet someone who didn't know WHOM I worship when they find out I am a Jew.

------------------
Eloah immakhem,

quote:

---

The issue of someone not knowing what a person believes is something that is [not] derived solely from words and pronunciations, but [from] character. If all you needed was a pronunciation then there would be no need for a Torah to deal with character.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by leejosepho:
I believe you meant to convey this, Shimson:

Shalom.

---

Thanks for the correction.

------------------
Eloah immakhem,

quote:

---

Originally posted by chuckbaldwin:
One thing i got from your last response is that you believe "Jews" have different laws to live by than Israelites and other non-Jews. I base this on your correcting me for using the word "anyone" where you had used the word "I", and seemed to imply (oops, i almost said "said") that it was the Jews that were commanded not to use the Name of YHWH, but that it was OK for everybody else.
My understanding of Scripture (Isa.56 and others) is that if a "stranger" wanted to "join themselves to YHWH", they would come under the same laws as natural born Israelites (not just Jews). So for those wanting to follow YHWH and learn His ways, there aren't different laws for different peoples. Jews must give up Judaism to follow YHWH; Israelites must give up Christianity (or whatever) to follow YHWH; and the non-Israelite pagans must give up their false gods to follow YHWH.
YHWH bless. Have a good Sabbath

---

Greetings Chuck,

I pray you are well. Actually, the Torah defines the difference between a Benei Yisrael, Geirim, Toshavim, ben-HaNekhar, Sikhrim, etc. In a previous post I mentioned this. In order to make it clear I will re-post it. The Torah mentions "The geir, who will DWELL among you." This is the important key words when it talks about non-Jews who live by aspects of Torah. The Torah even names specific types of non-Jews who did not do certain things, like a Toshav could not eat the Qorban Pesahh (Passover Sacrifice). A Toshav and Sikhri could eat nevilah, where a Benei Yisrael and a Geir could not. A Benei Yisrael could not collect a debt during the 7th year (Shemitah) from a fellow Benei Yisrael, but it could be exacted from a Nokhri.

Understanding what a Geir, Toshav, Sikri, and a Nokhri are according to Torah makes it completely clear what prophecies like Isaiah 56 means in terms of the ben-HaNekhar (this is the word it uses). It also speaks only of Shabbatoth (Sabbaths) and Brith (Covanent) it never tells the ben-Ha-Nekhar he/she MUST live exactly like a Geir = exactly like a Benei Yisrael. It is an encouragement for a ben-HaNekhar not to think that he/she can't be amongst Israel (because there were Toshavim and Nokhrim in Israel in ancient times just like now). Non-Jews who gave up paganism were supposed to be welcomed in Israel as the Torah provided (see below).

The below sections about the types of non-Benei Yisrael shows that there are different Mitzwoth for a Benei Yisrael in comparison to a Toshav for example, just as there were different responsibilities between a Levite and a descedent of the tribes of Israel. A Danite for example could never become the High Priest because the Torah defines that only sons of Aharon through Pinchas were in that role. The Torah gives the responsibilities for an entire society, which included Mitzwoth for non-Benei Yisrael, those who became Geirim (similar to the way a convert to Judaism is considered legally a Jew), or to those who were not Geirim (Toshav, Ben-Sikhri, etc.). The issue as I mentioned before is that even if a non-Jews follows Torah, he/she would not have a Te'udah as menitoned in Isaiah 8:20, nor would they have Minhagei Torah as menitoned in Acts 21:18. This is something that Jews have, and it is not necessary for a non-Jew live out the Torah the way that a Jew does.

In terms of Jews having to give up Judaism, we will have to agree to disagree on that. I don't believe that is the case at all, since the basis of the Yahaduth is to follow YHWH. You don't have to agree with how the various facets of this works, but as I mentioned before that Acts 21:18-24 is clear that Jews are to remain in Torah, circumsion of sons, and Minhagei Torah (Traditions of Torah). True Yahaduth (Judaism) is the combination of all three along with Mashi'ahh. Non-Jews are not commanded to remain in a Minhagei Torah because of course they would not have one, unless they became a Geir and JOINED a Benei Yisrael community which is what made a Geir a Geir.

In terms of the issue I mentioned about what the Torah says about the various peoples the following covers that.

THE GER
1. Legal provisions
(1) Principles
(2) Rules
2. Relation to Sacrifice and Ritual
3. Historical Circumstances

II. THE TOSHAV

III. THE NOKHRI OR BEN NEKHAR
1. Marriage
2. Exclusion of Some Races from the Assembly

IV. THE ZAR
Four different Hebrew words must be considered separately:
(1) ger, the American Standard Revised Version "sojourner" or "stranger";
(2) toshav, the American Standard Revised Version "sojourner";
(3) nokhri, ben nekhar, the American Standard Revised Version "foreigner";
(4) zar, the American Standard Revised Version "stranger."

I. The Ger.
This word with its kindred verb is applied with slightly varying meanings to anyone who resides in a country or a town of which he is not a full native land-owning citizen; e.g., the word is used of the patriarchs in Palestine, the Israelites in Egypt, the Levites dwelling among the Israelites (Deuteronomy 18:6; Judges 17:7, etc.), the Ephraimite in Gibeah (Judges 19:16). It is also particularly used of free aliens residing among the Israelites, and it is with the position of such that this article deals. This position is absolutely unparalleled in early legal systems (A. H. Post, Grundriss der ethnologischen Jurisprudenz, I, 448, note 3), which are usually far from favorable to strangers.

1. Legal Provisions:
(1) Principles.
The dominant principles of the legislation are most succinctly given in two passages:
He "loveth the ger in giving him food and raiment" (Deuteronomy 10:18); "And if a ger sojourn with thee (variant "you") in your land, ye shall not do him wrong. The ger that sojourneth with you shall be unto you as the home-born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were gerim in the land of Egypt" (Leviticus 19:33). This treatment of the stranger is based partly on historic recollection, partly on the duty of the Israelite to Elohim. Because the ger would be at a natural disadvantage through his alienage, he becomes one of the favorites of a legislation that gives special protection to the weak and helpless.

(2) Rules.
In nationality the freeman followed his father, so that the son of a ger and an Israelitess was himself a ger (Leviticus 24:10-22). Special care was to be taken to do him no judicial wrong (Deuteronomy 1:16; 27:19). In what may roughly be called criminal law it was enacted that the same rules should apply to gerim as to natives (Leviticus 18:26, which is due to the conception that certain abominations defile a land; Leviticus 20:2, where the motive is also religious; Leviticus 24:10-22; see SBL, 84; Numbers 35:15). A free Israelite who became his slave was subject to redemption by a relative at any time on payment of the fair price (Leviticus 25:47). This passage and Deuteronomy 28:43 contemplate the possibility of a stranger's becoming wealthy, but by far the greater number of the legal provisions regard him as probably poor. Thus provision is made for him to participate in tithes (Deuteronomy 14:29; 26:12), gleanings of various sorts and forgotten sheaves (Leviticus 19:10; 23:22; Deuteronomy 24:19,20,21), and poor hired servants were not to be oppressed (Deuteronomy 24:14).

2. Relation to Sacrifice and Ritual:
Nearly all the main holy days apply to the ger. He was to rest on the Sabbath (Exodus 20:10; 23:12, etc.), to rejoice on Weeks and Tabernacles (Deuteronomy 16), to observe the Day of Atonement (Leviticus 16:29), to have no leaven on the Festival of Unleavened Bread (Exodus 12:19). But he could not keep the Passover unless he underwent circumcision (Exodus 12:48). He could not eat blood at any rate during the wilderness period (Leviticus 17:10-12), and for that period, but not thereafter, he was probihited from eating that which died of itself (Leviticus 17:15; Deuteronomy 14:21) under pain of being unclean until the even. He could offer sacrifices (Leviticus 17:8; 22:18; Numbers 15:14), and was subject to the same rules as a native for unwitting sins (Numbers 15:22-31), and for purification for uncleanness by reason of contact with a dead body (Numbers 19:10-13).

3. Historical Circumstances:
The historical circumstances were such as to render the position of the resident alien important from the first. A "mixed multitude" went up with the Israelites from Egypt, and after the conquest we find Israelites and the races of Palestine living side by side throughout the country. We repeatedly read of resident aliens in the historical books, e.g. Uriah the Hittite. According to 2 Chronicles 2:17 f (Hebrew 16 f) there was a very large number of such in the days of Solomon, but the figure may be excessive. These seem to have been the remnant of the conquered tribes (1 Kings 9:20). Ezekiel in his vision assigned to gerim landed inheritance among the Israelites (47:22 f). Hospitality to the ger was of course a religious duty and the host would go to any lengths to protect his guest (Genesis 19; Judges 19:24).

II. The Toshav.
Of the toshav we know very little. It is possible that the word is practically synonymous with ger, but perhaps it is used of less permanent sojourning. Thus in Leviticus 22:10 it appears to cover anybody residing with a priest. A toshav could not eat the Passover or the "holy" things of a priest (Exodus 12:45; Leviticus 22:10). His children could be purchased as perpetual slaves, and the Torah of the Jubilee did not apply to them as to Israelites (Leviticus 25:45). He is expressly mentioned in the Torah of homicide (Numbers 35:15), but otherwise we have no information as to his legal position. Probably it was similar to that of the ger.

III. The Nokhri Ben Nekhar.
The nokhri or ben nekhar was a foreigner. The word is far wider than those considered above. It covers everything of alien or foreign character regardless of the place of residence. By circumcision a foreign slave could enter into the covenant with Abraham. Foreigners were of course excluded from the Passover (Exodus 12:43), but could offer sacrifices to Elohim at the religious capital (Leviticus 22:25). The Israelite could exact interest of them (Deuteronomy 23:20) and the payment of debts in cases where an Israelite debtor was protected by the release of Deuteronomy 15:3. Moses forbade the appointment of a foreigner as a ruler (Deuteronomy 17:15, in a Torah which according to Massoretic Text relates to a "king," but in the preferable text of Septuagint to a ruler generally). Later the worship of Elohim by foreigners from a distance was contemplated and encouraged (1 Kings 8:41-43; Isaiah 2:2; 56:3,6; etc.), while the case of Naaman shows that a foreigner might worship Him abroad (2 Kings 5:17). A resident foreigner was of course a ger. The distinction between these three words is perhaps best seen in Exodus 12:43,45,48 f. in the first of these verses we have ben nekhar, used to cover "alien" generally; in the last the ger is contemplated as likely to undergo a complete naturalization; while in 12:45 the toshabh is regarded as certain to be outside the religious society.

1. Marriage:
In the earlier period marriages with foreigners are common, though disliked (e.g. Genesis 24:3; 27:46; Numbers 12:1; Judges 14:3, etc.). The Torah provides for some unions of this kind (Deuteronomy 21:10; compare Numbers 31:18), but later Judaism became more stringent. Moses required the high priest to marry a virgin of his own people (Leviticus 21:14); Ezekiel limited all descendants of Zadok to wives of the house of Israel (44:22); Ezra and Nehemiah carried on a vigorous polemic against the intermarriage of any Jew with foreign women (Ezra 10; Nehemiah 13:23-31).

2. Exclusion of Some Races from Assembly:
Deuteronomy further takes up a hostile attitude to Ammonites and Moabites, excluding them from the assembly of Elohim even to the tenth generation, while the children of the third generation of Edomites and Egyptians could enter it (23:3-8 (Hebrew 4-9)). From 1 Kings 9:20,21,24; 1 Chronicles 22:2 we learn of the existence of foreign quarters in Israel.

IV. The Zar.
The remaining word zar means "stranger" and takes its coloring from the context. It may mean "stranger in blood," e.g. non-Aaronite (Numbers 16:40 (Heb 17:5)), or non-Levite (e.g. Numbers 1:51), or a non-member of some other defined family (Deuteronomy 25:5). In opposition to priest it means "lay" (Leviticus 22:10-13), and when the contrast is with holy, it denotes "profane" (Exodus 30:9).

1) According to the Torah, the differences between a Benei Yisrael, the sojourner, stranger, etc. was based on what respeonsibilities Elohim called them to. For example, if a Benei Yisrael was from the trip of Lewi he was called to a higher standard and a higher responsibility set. The Lewi (Levites) were not given a territory of their own, they were given cities. Some of these cities were places of refuge. The Lewi (Levites) and the Kohanim were dedicated to Elohim, so their service to Him was their reward. A Benei Yisrael who was not from the tribe of Lewi was called to other responsibilities. A Geir lived like a Jew, a Geir Toshav lived by a more limited group of Torah commands, so on and so on. Yet, a Geir and a Geir Toshav lived amongst Israel and their status was different than a non-Jew who did not live amongst Israel. In this day and time the only thing I can say is that a non-Jew has to start from where they are. A good place is to start at Noah. If you feel that you are called to more than that then you will have to pray to Elohim for guidance.

------------------
Eloah immakhem,

Thanks for your reply.

I don't understand what you mean by the term Jew, are you meaning the House of Judah or is the House of Israel included as well (to my knowledge the term Jew means the House of Judah, the Southern Kingdom).

The muslim children at my after school club all call the deity they worship god the christians also call Yahweh this and I've seen some of the Jewish forum posters on this and other sites refer to Yahweh in this way. I certainly know that the muslim deity and Yahweh are not the same. Their charactors are not the same for a start. The trouble is the world does not see it that way and I've heard Pastors and Vicars state that they are. Are not we supposed to be ambassadors for Yahweh and the Messiah if we use the same terms as the world were does that set us or Yahweh apart from the deities and ideas of this world. I still think that using titles like god, lord or any other term that is used by man for man or idols demotes the name of the Creator and causes it to be unholy in the site of the world (the reason for using His name).

I read your reply to Chuck well some of it at least. Do you think there is a two tier system even though Shual (Pual) states there is not one now in the body of the Messiah. That we are know all Israel in the Messiah. If this is not true then we who were Gentiles have no part in the New Covernant of Jerimiah 31:31-34 because there is no Gentile mentioned. Does this mean that none of us non-Jews should be celebrating passover.

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChrisDixon:
Shalom Shimson,

Thanks for your reply.

I don't understand what you mean by the term Jew, are you meaning the House of Judah or is the House of Israel included as well (to my knowledge the term Jew means the House of Judah, the Southern Kingdom).

---

The term Jew is a modern way of designating people who are Benei Yisrael, Geirim (as defined by the Torah), and in modern times converts who have knowledge of the roots of the Emunah (faith) that the Torah and the Nevi'im (prophets) spoke of and live in a community of such. Yahaduth is the path that the before mentioned people walk "post" destruction of the Temple. It is made up of what Acts 21:18 mentions when the debate about Shaul (Paul) was accused of came into question. Shaul (Paul) was accused of doing three things, these three things were teaching Yehudim (as it mentions in the text) to not live Torah, to not circumsise their sons, and to not live by the Minhagei Torah (traditions of Torah). These three things are what true Yahaduth (Judaism) is about preserving and continuing for the the people who fit into the above category, and it is what Yeshua lived by and taught.

For example one aspect of Minhagei Torah is made up of things of how we live out the Torah (Halakhah), how we understand Torah (Middot), and how we are supposed to interact with the world (Tikkun Olam). These things for a Jew/Benei Yisrael who lives by the Torah and the Te'udah (Isaiah 8:20) are the fruit, which are supposed to come from Emunah in Elohim.

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChrisDixon:
The muslim children at my after school club all call the deity they worship god the christians also call Yahweh this and I've seen some of the Jewish forum posters on this and other sites refer to Yahweh in this way. I certainly know that the muslim deity and Yahweh are not the same. Their charactors are not the same for a start. The trouble is the world does not see it that way and I've heard Pastors and Vicars state that they are. Are not we supposed to be ambassadors for Yahweh and the Messiah if we use the same terms as the world were does that set us or Yahweh apart from the deities and ideas of this world. I still think that using titles like god, lord or any other term that is used by man for man or idols demotes the name of the Creator and causes it to be unholy in the site of the world (the reason for using His name).

---

The following my help you in this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninety-nine_names_of_Allah

There is another web-site from a Muslim scholar on this issue that I will pass to you when I find it.

On the issue of lord and god, as I mentioned before I don't use those designations, because they are not Hebrew. Also, the Torah points out places where Elohim Himself calls Himself titles such as Elohim, El, El Elyon, El Shaddai, ba'al to Yisrael, Adon, etc. The Hebrew Tanakh is reliable in what it says from Elohim. As I mentioned before the concept for a Jew to be an ambasodor is to rely the character of Elohim. Having a pronunciation alone is not the Hebrew Tanakh mentions. The concepts of titles demoting The Creator, doesn't match up with the logic used in the Hebrew text since YHWH calls Himself by titles and calling Him "The Creator" is a title also. Yeshua called Him Avi, that is a title that means "My Father."

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChrisDixon:
I read your reply to Chuck well some of it at least. Do you think there is a two tier system even though Shual (Pual) states there is not one now in the body of the Messiah. That we are know all Israel in the Messiah. If this is not true then we who were Gentiles have no part in the New Covernant of Jerimiah 31:31-34 because there is no Gentile mentioned. Does this mean that none of us non-Jews should be celebrating passover.

Yahweh bless you
Chris[/B]

---

I don't really think in this area there is a two tier system, I can only go by what the Torah states. The Torah is based on Elohim placing a societal responsiblity on the Benei Yisrael, Geirim, Toshavim, etc. who were at Har Sinai (Mount Sinai) and received the Torah, throughtout the time in the desert. Societies have responsibilities. For example I am a Jew, and as far as I know I am not a Levite. So if I lived during the time of the Tabernacle or the Temple I can't, based on Torah, up and decide that all of a sudden I can do what the Levites are commanded to do. In fact there are warnings about non-Levites trying to perform the duties of the Levites.

Israel was one society, but people had different responsibilities in that society. The Torah is about building a society of Benei Yisrael, Geirim, Toshavim, etc. whose ultimate responsibility was (is) to be a Ohr Lagoyim (light to the nations).

Yeshayahu (Isaiah) 42:5-7 This is what HaEl "The Mighty One" YHWH says--he who created the heavens and stretched them out, who spread out the earth and all that comes out of it, who gives breath to its people, and life to those who walk on it: "I, YHWH, have called you in righteousness; I will take hold of your hand. I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the people and a Ohr LaGoyim (light for the Nations/Gentiles), To open eyes that are blind, to free captives from prison and to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness.

Interesting enough YHWH calls Himself HaEl in this prophecy "HaEl" means "The Mighty One." No different than HaShem means, "The Renowned One."

When you look at Romans, lets see what Paul says on the issues.

Romans 3:1-2 What advantage, then, is there in being a Yehudi (Jew), or what value there in circumcision? Much in every way! First of all, they have been entrusted with the very words of Elohim.

Romans 9:4 The people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the Torah, the temple worship and the promises.

When the Torah was given it was given to one society Yisrael. This was a society made up of Benei Yisrael, Geirim, Nikhrim, Toshavim, etc. There is ONE Torah, which breaks down the responsibility to each. If a Geir wants to know he/her responsibility before Elohim, he/she goes to the same source that a Benei Yisrael would find out his/her responsibility. This same source has information, which deals with the various positions that a society calls for. Once again though Yisrael was a place where, non-Jews could come to lagur "to dwell" amongst Israel.

On any BODY, there are members such as arms, legs, ears, mouth, feet, stomach, organs, which have all different functions that make the body operate and all are important to the function of the body. An ear obviously can't do what a hand can do, and a stomach can't be used the same way a foot would be. No member of the body is greater than the other, because having one ripped out or off, will cause all kind of problems to the function of the body.

Paul's terminology about circumcision means something in a 1st - 4th cent. Israeli context. That is mentioning circumsion in that time frame is talking about conversation i.e. becoming a Geir (adoption of sons). A non-Jew does not have to become a Geir to receive salvation, all they have to do walk like the Patriarchs and they will become Benei Elohim like the Sages of Israel believe. A non-Jew doesn't have to place themselves under Jewish juridiction to receive blessing from Elohim. The school of Shammai who were the Parushim in power at that time Yeshua lived taught that non-Jews could only receive Salvation by becoming Geirim (i.e. coverting). In Acts 15 that issue was dealt with by the believing Jewish counsil in Jerusalem. Romans 11:7-36 makes clear the totality of the matter.

The responsibility of a Jew is different than a non-Jew also terms of how much has been placed before Jews, from birth to come foward with. There is no excuse for a Jew who grew up with Hebrew being spoken, Aramaic learning available, Synagogoues all around them, etc. to not know come before Elohim to be pleasing before Him. I.e. a Jew who grew up with a treasure trove before them has no excuse for not being rightous before Elohim. Some take hold of the tree of life and some do not. Just as there is no excuse for a non-Jew who has had the divine will of introduced to them to ignore it and go on with life as if a treasure they weren't born with hasn't been placed before them. The two situations are different and the responsibilities are different.

------------------
Eloah immakhem,

Shimson bar-Tzadoq

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChrisDixon:
The muslim children at my after school club all call the deity they worship god the christians also call Yahweh this and I've seen some of the Jewish forum posters on this and other sites refer to Yahweh in this way. I certainly know that the muslim deity and Yahweh are not the same. Their charactors are not the same for a start.

---

First, there is the matter of whether YHWH (who is spirit) is actually a "diety", but with that aside, yes:

Jews, Muslims, Christians and the rest of us who mean to do so actually *are* speaking (rightly or wrongly) about the same "One". However, and as you are aware (although looking from a distracting angle), each of those has mere *perceptions* of (or mere beliefs about) Him that are in conflict with His actual "character" ... and please note that I did *not* mention their being in conflict with one another, as that would only lead to sectarian debate such as even this:

quote:

---

The trouble is the world does not see it that way and I've heard Pastors and Vicars state that they are.

---

Understand?

As an example:

Each of us here has a *perception* of EliYah (who operates this discussion board) even though most of us have never actually seen him, and if we ever try to *factually* describe him to others by using any of our mere perceptions or speculations, others would likely never know who he really is.

So then, our first option must be to simply repeat what he has said about himself, or to share what we have learned directly from his appointed ones, especially from a father-like son (if he has one), and to only share things from our own minds (experience or alleged "knowledge") that precisely match that (or are at least "in concert"). Otherwise, it is we who become the authors of confusion ...

Conprende'?

That is why I occasionally point out the general uselessness of opinion and "position".

quote:

---

Are not we supposed to be ambassadors for Yahweh and the Messiah[?]
if we use the same terms as the world were does that set us or Yahweh apart from the deities and ideas of this world.

---

As Shimson has pointed out, the terms we use are not the deciding factor. Rather, we are to simply exemplify His name-likeness (character) ...

... and I once heard that shared in this way:

"Preach (propagate) the gospel at all times -- and if necessary, maybe say a few words."

Shalom.

As for the first part o your reply I was not talking about the titles Yahweh uses for Himself or the one Tahushua asked us to use just the ones that are used by the world for the gods of this world. 90% of this world would have never heard of those titles maybe El Shaddai (thinking of the song) they only hear the false ones.

The second part I'm not sure if you answered my question or the answer has any bearing on the question is Jerimiah 31:31-34 for the Jew only or are we all Israel in the Messiah (maybe I didn't understand). I also got the impression from your reply that you might think there is some instances where there maybe a two tier system could you enlighten me.

Yahweh bless you

The muslims are not speaking about the same "One". A muslim cleric stated not so long back that the god they worship is the arabic moon god. This cleric is also one of the top Islamic leaders in London I am still trying to find the source of the quote(the clerics name) but it was stated by Yaphet Bander(if I got his name right) on Revelation TV.

Religeous historions say that Mohammad invented his religion by plagerising the teachings of Judaism. Catholism and the Arabic religions of his day. He wrote down all his thoughts and ideas on scraps of paper these were later found after his death by his followers who set about piecing them together until it became the Quaran.

The reason I have been asking these questions about using the name of Yahweh is that due to the ignorance of the world the anti-messiah would have a field day if he came now and be accepted by everybody.

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChrisDixon:
Shalom Shimson,

As for the first part o your reply I was not talking about the titles Yahweh uses for Himself or the one Tahushua asked us to use just the ones that are used by the world for the gods of this world. 90% of this world would have never heard of those titles maybe El Shaddai (thinking of the song) they only hear the false ones.

---

Greetings Chris,

I think the bigger point that I was making is that we are not from the same theoligical frame work. In Hebrew the word shem (shin-mem) "name" is a broader concept than just a pronunciation. This is a concept more than it is a literal English idea. Shin-Mem can mean any of the following, reputation, glory, fame, memorial. Knowing how to vocalize Yod-Hey-Waw-Hey alone is not what the Hebrew text is talking about, it is talking about knowing His character. As I mentioned before there are Muslims who know how to pronounce the word Yahweh, but that doesn't make them any more saved than someone who doesn't.

As I mentioned before people in my community don't use the word "god" or "lord" because I am mostly around Hebrew speakers, and besides these are western concepts. Your references to "god" and "lord" also have no bearing on what I am talking about since I don't use such designations, and I have posted anything like those on this web-site. Hebrew adjectives are not objectional to describe Elohim. The word Shem is a Hebrew word of Hebrew origin, and adding a definate article to it is no different than HaEl "The Mighty One."

I am a Jew, and over 90% percent of the world KNOWS what that stands for, IF the Jew they are looking at is living it out properly (i.e. Torah observance) and even if they are not people still know what we are supposed to stand for, and WHO we are supposed to stand for. Hebrew, Tzitzith, moral character, and respect for all mankind are signs which are easily understood as pointing back to Elohim described in the Tanakh. Shemoth 20:1-22 points to this that there is an essential character of Elohim that I a Benei Yisrael is supposed to recognize "The One who brought Yisrael out of Egypt, and that no one else did it."

The Character of Elohim, according to the Hebrew text, is what Mosheh was asking Elohim when he asked Him for His Name (Shemoth 3:13). This is most likely why Elohim responded with Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh, thus explaining His character since He also associates His character with His relationship with Avraham, Yitzhhaq, and Ya`aqov. From archeology that both the Egyptians and the Kanaanites already know how to pronounce Yod-Hey-Waw-Hey, yet they did not know His character.

As I mentioned before Jews pray three times a day, that Elohim will be Ehhad and His Name will be Ehhad.

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChrisDixon:
The second part I'm not sure if you answered my question or the answer has any bearing on the question is Jerimiah 31:31-34 for the Jew only or are we all Israel in the Messiah (maybe I didn't understand). I also got the impression from your reply that you might think there is some instances where there maybe a two tier system could you enlighten me.

Yahweh bless you

Chris[/B]

---

I don't really think in this area there is a two tier system, I can only go by what the Torah states. The Torah is based on Elohim placing a societal responsiblity on the Benei Yisrael, Geirim, Toshavim, etc. who were at Har Sinai (Mount Sinai) and received the Torah, throughtout the time in the desert. Societies have responsibilities. For example I am a Jew, and as far as I know I am not a Levite. So if I lived during the time of the Tabernacle or the Temple I can't, based on Torah, up and decide that all of a sudden I can do what the Levites are commanded to do. In fact there are warnings about non-Levites trying to perform the duties of the Levites.

Israel was one society, but people had different responsibilities in that society. The Torah is about building a society of Benei Yisrael, Geirim, Toshavim, etc. whose ultimate responsibility was (is) to be a Ohr Lagoyim (light to the nations).

Yeshayahu (Isaiah) 42:5-7 This is what HaEl "The Mighty One" YHWH says--he who created the heavens and stretched them out, who spread out the earth and all that comes out of it, who gives breath to its people, and life to those who walk on it: "I, YHWH, have called you in righteousness; I will take hold of your hand. I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the people and a Ohr LaGoyim (light for the Nations/Gentiles), To open eyes that are blind, to free captives from prison and to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness.

Interesting enough YHWH calls Himself HaEl in this prophecy "HaEl" means "The Mighty One." No different than HaShem means, "The Renowned One."

When you look at Romans, lets see what Paul says on the issues.

Romans 3:1-2 What advantage, then, is there in being a Yehudi (Jew), or what value there in circumcision? Much in every way! First of all, they have been entrusted with the very words of Elohim.

Romans 9:4 The people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the Torah, the temple worship and the promises.

In terms of Yermeyahu 31-31-34. The Hebrew text is clear that the parties who receive the Brith Hhadash "renewed/new covanent" with Elohim are Beith Yisrael and Beith Yehudah. Now here is where we have to go back to what I stated earlier what a Jew is. If you look in my previous post I defined it. This is important because I am a Jew, and I live in a Jewish community, but according to the elders of the community my family comes from our ancestry is from the tribe of Zevulun. There are also Jews from India who are said to be from the tribe of Menesheh. In Israel there are Samaritans who are said to be from the tribes of Yoseph (Ephrayim and Menasheh) as well as Lewi. The Jews from Ethiopia are said to be from the tribe of Dan. etc. and etc.

Now if you are suggesting that you are a Benei Yisrael, that is between and Elohim. That is something I don't know concerning you, and only you and Elohim know that. Yet, it also goes back to the issue of not having a broken chain of understanding on thee matters. I will explain later.

When the Torah was given it was given to one society Yisrael. This was a society made up of Benei Yisrael, Geirim, Nikhrim, Toshavim, etc. There is ONE Torah, which breaks down the responsibility to each. If a Geir wants to know he/her responsibility before Elohim, he/she goes to the same source that a Benei Yisrael would find out his/her responsibility. This same source has information, which deals with the various positions that a society calls for. Once again though Yisrael was a place where, non-Jews could come to lagur "to dwell" amongst Israel.

On any BODY, there are members such as arms, legs, ears, mouth, feet, stomach, organs, which have all different functions that make the body operate and all are important to the function of the body. An ear obviously can't do what a hand can do, and a stomach can't be used the same way a foot would be. No member of the body is greater than the other, because having one ripped out or off, will cause all kind of problems to the function of the body.

Paul's terminology about circumcision means something in a 1st - 4th cent. Israeli context. That is mentioning circumsion in that time frame is talking about conversation i.e. becoming a Geir (adoption of sons). A non-Jew does not have to become a Geir to receive salvation, all they have to do walk like the Patriarchs and they will become Benei Elohim like the Sages of Israel believe. A non-Jew doesn't have to place themselves under Jewish juridiction to receive blessing from Elohim. The school of Shammai who were the Parushim in power at that time Yeshua lived taught that non-Jews could only receive Salvation by becoming Geirim (i.e. coverting). In Acts 15 that issue was dealt with by the believing Jewish counsil in Jerusalem. Romans 11:7-36 makes clear the totality of the matter.

The responsibility of a Jew is different than a non-Jew (Toshav, Ben-Nekhar, etc.) also terms of how much has been placed before Jews, from birth to come foward with. There is no excuse for a Jew who grew up with Hebrew being spoken, Aramaic learning available, Synagogoues all around them, etc. to not know come before Elohim to be pleasing before Him. I.e. a Jew who grew up with a treasure trove before them has no excuse for not being rightous before Elohim. Some take hold of the tree of life and some do not. Just as there is no excuse for a non-Jew who has had the divine will of introduced to them to ignore it and go on with life as if a treasure they weren't born with hasn't been placed before them. The two situations are different and the responsibilities are different.

Consider the following. In Acts 21:18 they mention Minhagei Torah (traditions of Torah) and in Isaiah 8:20 Torah and Te'udah is mentioned. So then my question to you is for a non-Jew what is the Minhagei Torah (Traditions) and what is Te'udah?

That being said please read the following for me. You may need a Hebrew font on your computer.
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/i/t/x/x0608.htm

I know that by keeping this in Hebrew I am causing a bit of a delima, but bear with me because it is a part of the point I am making.

------------------
Eloah immakhem,

Shimson bar-Tzadoq

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChrisDixon:
The reason I have been asking these questions about using the name of Yahweh is that due to the ignorance of the world the anti-messiah would have a field day if he came now and be accepted by everybody.

May Yahweh bless you
Chris

---

The problem here though is that there are those who suggest that Yahweh is not the actual pronunciation of Yod-Hey-Waw-Hey, some go as far as to say that it is the pronunciation of a pagan deity originally. Whether this is true or not is conjecture, but worthy of question.

So unless you yourself have done the actual archeology, language learning/research, etc. for all you know that anti-messiah may have had something to do with your understanding of how to pronounce Yod-Hey-Waw-Hey. How do you know that the translators of your bible did it correctly? How do you know that the anti-messiah is already here tampering with the translations and such?

The following two articles bring up some interesting things of consideration on the pronunciation of Yod-Hey-Waw-Hey.

http://www.karaite-korner.org/light-of-israel/the_name.shtml
http://gertoux.online.fr/divinename/faq/A09.htm

Knowing the character of Elohim, as Yeshua taught is the way to know who Elohim is and isn't.

------------------
Eloah immakhem,

It is my understanding in the words of Paul that we who accept Yahushua as our saviour are know grafted into the same vine we are now made Israel if not we could not claim the new covernant for ourselves if we are not part of the House of Judah or Israel Jerimiah 31:31-34(I was taught through history that its only the sothern kingdom Judah that are refered to as Jews).
Are not we all priests now in the service of Yahweh and we all can walk boldly into the Holy of Holies.

The issue with using Yahwehs name, the anti-messiah already has tampered that is why we have people preaching lawlessness in the name of Jesus and God.

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChrisDixon:
Shalom Shimson,

It is my understanding in the words of Paul that we who accept Yahushua as our saviour are know grafted into the same vine we are now made Israel if not we could not claim the new covernant for ourselves if we are not part of the House of Judah or Israel Jerimiah 31:31-34(I was taught through history that its only the sothern kingdom Judah that are refered to as Jews).

Are not we all priests now in the service of Yahweh and we all can walk boldly into the Holy of Holies.

The issue with using Yahwehs name, the anti-messiah already has tampered that is why we have people preaching lawlessness in the name of Jesus and God.

Thanks
Chris

---

Greetings Chris,

The word Jew is a modern designation of one who is either Benei Yisrael (physically), Geir (one who dwells with Israelis), or one who has converted. It is derived from the word Yehudi, but both in modern times are used to denote any Benei Yisrael. For example a person who converts to Judaims in modern terms is called a Jew. Legally a convert to Judaism is seen EXACTLY the same as a person born Jewish. This person is not just some one on the fringe of Jewish society or completely outside of it, but is living within Jewish society and can't be reminded of their past before conversation. It is in no way necessary for a non-Jew to do things the way that Jew does. A non-Jew can live Torah in the way that Elohim has called them to do it. Yet, a Benei Yisrael has three things that make up that commitment Torah, circumcision of sons, and Minhagei Torah (Acts 21:18) or Te'udah as mentioned in Yeshayahu 8:20. For example, is it necessary for a person who was not born into a Benei Yisrael society to wear Tefillin? Of course not, Tefillin are a Minhagei Torah/Te'udah that Jews do, with the exception of Karaites. The Karaite Minhagei Torah is that there is not nead to wear them. There is no command for a non-Jew to remain in a Minhagei Torah or Te'udah since of course they wouldn't have one unless they made one up and passed it on to their children.

The Hebrew term Yehudi as it is used modernly designates more than just kingdoms and such. As mentioned before, the issue is that even if you are grafted in spiritually yet you have no contact phyiscally with the natural vine then your engrafting is only spiritual in nature.

If you have been grafted in spiritually and due to that you interact with the natural vine physically also that is a different situation. If you live in a Jewish community and interact with said community by following Torah you can easily be any of the following; Geir, Toshav, etc. The issue here is that if you feel you are Israel and you don't interact with Israel physically then you are Israel only spiritually. One of the prophets, that escapes me right now, mentions that non-Jews who dwell with certain tribes of Israel will inherit along with those tribes they dwell with. Yet, it mentions that they "dwell" with those tribes, which is the meaning of the word "Geir." One who dwells.

Paul was an emmissary to non-Jews, yet they interacted with him and other Jews. Thats why they were ingrafted, because it was a spiritual and physical interaction as can be seen in Acts 15 when it is mentioned that the Greeks came to the Synagogoue to learn about Torah. The Toshav and the Ben-Nekhar are supposed to learn Torah, because there are commands in the Torah about what the Toshav and the Ben-Nekhar are responsible for. Once again Paul's letters are coming from a first cent. context, and the historically how they should be viewed. If one understands what was going on between Beith Hillel and Beith Shammai towards the issues of non-Jews one would understand more of what Paul is discussing.

In terms of being priests, Israel is called a nation of priests back in the Torah. Yet, when the physical Temple was built any person couldn't just walk into the Qodesh Qadoshim (Holy of Holies). The language of being able to walk boldly into the Qodesh Qedashim is metaphorical, especially since it is believed by some the Mashi'ahh is the Temple that the Tabarnacle was patternrd after him. It is not speaking as if believers of Yeshua being Mashi'ahh just did what ever they wanted in the 2nd Temple. Besides if that is what it meant literally then it would go against the Torah, which specified that only the Kohein HaGadol could go into the Qodesh Qedashim only on Yom Kippur. The situation of being a priest was in Torah based on spiritual character, but also on what the person knows.

Once again the names god and jesus really don't have anything to do with the world I live in. If your point is about those kind of terms, then that is not what I am about. As mentioend before I am a Jew who believes that Yeshua is Mashi'ahh, and I believe that Torah (in Hebrew) and the writings found in the Qyama Hhadtah (Aramaic New Testament) are sufficient enough for a person to know exactly what I believe. I think the issue you mentioned is more centered towards Christians since god and jesus are terms that more of them rely on for their faith.

------------------
Eloah immakhem,