quote:

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Originally posted by Acheson:
One way to do this while using honorable titles is to place either an article (such as "the") or a pronoun (such as "our") in front of the title. Since I have never heard anyone do such a thing with "Hashem," this is a clear indication that this word is only used as a name.

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Larry,

Just a suggestion: You may want to ask an Israeli pre-schooler what "ha" means, before making such statements.

I haven't bothered to read most of this thread. Shimson was very clear with his original posts. Your time would be better spent in service of Elohim. No such service is being done here by your dogging anyone over this issue.

Originally posted by Acheson:
One way to do this while using honorable titles is to place either an article (such as "the") or a pronoun (such as "our") in front of the title. Since I have never heard anyone do such a thing with "Hashem," this is a clear indication that this word is only used as a name.

BS"D
HaShem is Hebrew for "The Name." It is not used "as a name" but is used in reference to The Name of El-him.

Vayikra 24:11 "And the Yisre'elit woman's son blasphemed The Name (HaShem) of Y-H-V-H, and cursed. And they brought him to Moshe; and his mother's name was Shelomit, the daughter of Divri, of the Tribe of Dan."

Devarim 28:58 "If you will not take care to do all the words of this Torah that are written in this book, that you may fear this glorious and fearful Name (HaShem), Ad-nai your El-him"

Rivkah

I believe you may have missed a portion from my posting in which I made it clear that, in English, one can indeed use a word both as a name or as a common noun ... even by leaving out the "article" or "pronoun." However, to make it absolutely clear that we are not using a title as a name (which I do not believe is proper), we can choose to use either an article or pronoun in front of it. This removes all doubt.

You wrote:

quote:

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Certainly, the word "HaShem" should never be used as a substitute for HaShem, but it actually *is* quite possible to use that word *without* it being a name ... just as I have just done, thereby proving the absence of a preceding article or pronoun might also at times prove it is *not* being used as a name.

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I reply: Of course it is possible, as I had previously mentioned. Here's a portion of what you may not have read from my previous posting in which I had previously established this fact:

Please understand that I am not saying that this "rule" is an absolute, for it is true that you do not always need to have an article or pronoun in front of a noun to distinguish it from a proper noun. For example, if I were to have said, "Caffeine is harmful to your health," the average person would know that I was referring to the stimulant, and not to my calf, even though I didn't use either a pronoun or definite article to so distinguish it. However, this makes reference to yet another English grammar "rule"; namely, that whenever referring to anything in general, it isn't necessary to place a pronoun or article in front of the word in question. The context clearly indicates what is being referred to.

My additional comment: The use of "Hashem" in the first portion your comment was of a general nature, just as was the one I just now used. It wasn't a specific reference to anyone or anything, it was simply a general use of the term. However, the second usage of "Hashem" in your comment looks like it's used as a name to me. If it's not then I guess I need an explanation as to exactly how you were using it and who or what you were making reference to.

I might also ask how it would be possible to substitute "HaShem" with "HaShem," since there is no difference between the two. This seems confusing to me.

If you wish to use "Hashem" in direct reference to YHWH, you may find it a bit more difficult to use it without doing so in the same way a name is used, unless of course, you wish to say something honorable such as, "Baruch ha-shem YHWH."

I believe many folks today, just as the prophets of Baal of ancient times, make names out of titles. In fact, many references actually list (in error) "Elohim" and "Adonai" as names for YHWH. I trust that everyone here knows better. Speaking of titles used as names, the term Baal, in and of itself, was a perfectly respectable title meaning "master" or "husband." However, it was taken from that respectable status and transformed into a name.

In the same way that YHWH's people could forget His name for Baal, so could they forget His name for "Elohim" ... or "Hashem" (Jer. 23:27). Of course, I'm certain no one, in the infancy of referring to the Almighty as "Baal," foresaw that it would one day evolve into utter false worship ... but that is what happened.

Surely ... we could show YHWH total respect by not mentioning His name, and we'll just simply refer to Him as "Elohim" ... or as "HaShem." Nothing will ever come of it. Of course, this is what we are supposed to think ... and all the while the true name is suppressed.

As I established early on in this thread (see page 2), I have no problem with saying something honorable like "Baruch ha-shem YHWH," which means, "Blessed be the name of YHWH." But when I use "hashem" as a name in reference to Him, there is a problem. A substitution has been made.

When someone says something like, "It was the time in history where HaShem changed history and the physical reality by causing all of Israel to receive a gift from on high," we see the term "HaShem" used as a name, whether anyone wishes to admit it or not.

Yo'el, you wrote:

quote:

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Just a suggestion: You may want to ask an Israeli pre-schooler what "ha" means, before making such statements.

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I reply: Since you have made it clear that you really haven't read much of what I have written in defense of YHWH's honor, I should expect such misunderstandings from you.

If you would like to refer to the very first posting that I submitted to this thread, the third paragraph, you will see where I recognize the word "the" in the word "Ha-shem." If you wish to now transform this into a discussion of literal translations, then let's finish the term out, shall we? It's not just "the," it's "the name." Something tells me not very many Jews are going to suggest referring to YHWH simply with the complete English translation "the name," although, on second thought, anything is possible.

Let's try doing it with the above quote: "It was the time in history where THE NAME changed history and the physical reality by causing all of Israel to receive a gift from on high."

I would personally rank such a reference right up there with "the LORD," but clearly many folks don't see things the way I do. I believe we need to give YHWH the utmost reverence and honor. If we simply cannot bring ourselves to call upon Him by name or to refer to Him by name, then the very least we can do is use titles that are clearly distinguished as titles.

Again, as the English "rule" book says, words like "mother," "father," "uncle," etc., may be used as names. If it is possible for those titles to be used as names, then it is likewise possible to use "Elohim" and "Hashem" as names. Why risk such a misunderstanding? I thought we were supposed to do all we can to keep our brothers from stumbling ... shouldn't that include being crystal clear in everything we say ... or at least trying to be crystal clear?

Most of us already know and understand the frustrations we experience when we are misunderstood. It happens even when we try to not be misunderstood. This is one area where we can practically erase the misunderstanding. When I refer to YHWH in the following manner, someone might think His name is Elohim:

"Let us all do our best to serve Elohim."

However, to better express that "Elohim" isn't a name, we can say something like this:

"Let us all do our best to serve our Elohim."

And just to erase all doubt as to "Who" it is we worship, we can phrase it like this:

"Let us all do our best to serve our Elohim YHWH."

I wonder how many people here would prefer that last choice. It seems there are only a select few, but maybe, as in the days of Elijah, there are others who will not bow their knees to Baal ... or to Hashem. If His name be Hashem, then worship Hashem, but if it be YHWH, then worship Him. As for me and my house, our decision rests with worshipping YHWH.

Hashem is not YHWH, but ... Baruch ha-shem YHWH!

Since the expression "Ha-shem" simply means "the name," I am left to wonder how appropriate it is to refer to our Creator as "The name."

Of course, "Ha-shem" is the result of combining the Hebrew article for "the" (ha) with the Hebrew word for "name" (shem).

However, the "ha-shem" combo also gives us the name of an Israelite mentioned in I Chronicles 11:34. Yes, before anyone came up with the notion of referring to YHWH as "Hashem," a word matching this pronunciation had already been given to a man.

Furthermore, as I have recently learned, the name of this Israelite means "fat." Not only do I feel uncomfortable referring to the Almighty with a word pronounced identically as the name originally ascribed to a man, but it seems wrong to want to refer to YHWH as "fat." This, to me, is also dishonorable.

Hi, Rivkah:

I don't believe you intended to quote me out of context, but nevertheless this is what you did. By quoting me out of context, you make it appear as though I do not in any way support the use of "Ha-shem," even in a phrase in which the Creator is referenced. This is not true.

Here is what you quoted from me:

Originally posted by Acheson:
One way to do this while using honorable titles is to place either an article (such as "the") or a pronoun (such as "our") in front of the title. Since I have never heard anyone do such a thing with "Hashem," this is a clear indication that this word is only used as a name.

To which you replied (with Scripture quotes):

quote:

---

HaShem is Hebrew for "The Name." It is not used "as a name" but is used in reference to The Name of El-him.

Vayikra 24:11 "And the Yisre'elit woman's son blasphemed The Name (HaShem) of Y-H-V-H, and cursed. And they brought him to Moshe; and his mother's name was Shelomit, the daughter of Divri, of the Tribe of Dan."

---

I believe the best way to vividly illustrate how I have no problem using "ha-shem" in reference to YHWH, so long as it isn't used as a name, is to point you to a posting I submitted on the second page of this thread. I closed one of my postings by writing, "Baruch hashem YHWH." This should be a "clue" that you misunderstood what I wrote.

With this in mind, I will now re-post the entire paragraph from which you quoted, in its full context:

As I demonstrated in a previous posting, if you can use titles such as "mother," "aunt," "father," etc. as names, the same can be done with virtually any word, including Hashem and Elohim. I believe when we compose our sentences in English, we need to make a conscious effort to show others that we in no way replace the Almighty's name. One way to do this while using honorable titles is to place either an article (such as "the") or a pronoun (such as "our") in front of the title. Since I have never heard anyone do such a thing with "Hashem," this is a clear indication that this word is only used as a name.

Just to further clarify my intentions, when I wrote, "Since I have never heard anyone do such a thing with "Hashem," what I meant was, "I have never heard anyone make any references to YHWH by saying or writing, "My Hashem" or "The Hashem."

I hope this helps to clarify what I meant. I have absolutely no problem with referring to "the name (ha-shem) of YHWH." But I believe it does not honor Him when someone says, "Blessed are You, HaShem, our God, King of the Universe, who sanctifies us through His commandments ...."

The above is taken from a website for Jewish prayers, which may be accessed at the following URL:
http://home.comcast.net/~judaism/Siddur/transliterations/daily/ber_mitzvot.htm

To Chris Dixon: Thank you for your kind words. Over the past three years, I'm certain you have noticed at least one item that you and I have in common: No matter what it is you choose to believe, there will always be someone there to tell you that you have made the wrong decision. I believe you have chosen a righteous path and that your heart is inclined towards honoring YHWH. I pray you continue your diligent quest for truth. I, like you, am but a student. As with all aspects of our beliefs, we must prove all things, for another truth is that things aren't always as they seem. I believe if we put the honor of YHWH above all else, everything else will fall in place. May you always keep your hand "to the plough."

May the Almighty bless you all.

Yours in Messiah,
Larry

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I have this trouble when you tell mainstream Christians that they have replaced Yahwehs name for names like god and lord, believe me they don't even though their gramma and the context they use these titles states otherwise. Even using the title Almighty without the "the" before makes it a substitute for our Fathers name. Which is not really honouring the name of our Creator at all. Especially when His Word tells us to make His name known and lift His name on high etc. Do we think we know better than Yahweh or His word? Yahweh the use of His name is important and so should we.

I wonder how those people who will not use Yahweh's name for various reason cope when they need to call on His name, because you have use it to get an anwer. Just a thought.

quote:

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Originally posted by Rivkah:
HaShem is Hebrew for "The Name." It is not used "as a name" ...

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No, not always, but at times ...

quote:

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Choose life
by Jonathan Rosenblum
Hamodia
April 1, 2005

…
Invariably, Yacov responds to my inquiries about Marsi with expressions of thanks to Hashem for the progress that has been made and hope for future progress ...

http://www.eliyah.com/forum2/Forum10/HTML/002258.html

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Acheson:
Hi, Lee:

I believe you may have missed a portion from my posting in which I made it clear that, in English, one can indeed use a word both as a name or as a common noun ... even by leaving out the "article" or "pronoun." However, to make it absolutely clear that we are not using a title as a name (which I do not believe is proper), we can choose to use either an article or pronoun in front of it. This removes all doubt.

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Greetings, Larry, and no, I had not missed that. Rather, I was simply responding to your comment at the end of what I saw as your overall conclusion, and within which you had even underlined the word "only":

quote:

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Originally posted by Acheson:
I believe when we compose our sentences in English, we need to make a conscious effort to show others that we in no way replace the Almighty's name. One way to do this while using honorable titles is to place either an article (such as "the") or a pronoun (such as "our") in front of the title. Since I have never heard anyone do such a thing with "Hashem," this is a clear indication that this word is only used as a name.

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...

quote:

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... the second usage of "Hashem" in your comment looks like it's used as a name to me. If it's not then I guess I need an explanation as to exactly how you were using it and who or what you were making reference to.

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“... the word "HaShem" should never be used as a substitute for HaShem ...”
“... the word "HaShem" should never be used as a substitute for The Name (of The One who created us).”

quote:

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I might also ask how it would be possible to substitute "HaShem" with "HaShem," since there is no difference between the two. This seems confusing to me.

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As you have just written those two occurrences of “HaShem”, there is no difference. However, and as you can see just above, I had written one occurrence differently from the other.

quote:

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If you wish to use "Hashem" in direct reference to YHWH ...

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If you are there referring to me, you must have me confused with someone, for I am one who does *not* wish to use the word “HaShem” in reference to YHWH. Rather, I prefer to use HaShem (as best I might be able to say it).

quote:

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To Chris Dixon: ... Over the past three years, I'm certain you have noticed at least one item that you and I have in common: No matter what it is you choose to believe, there will always be someone there to tell you that you have made the wrong decision ...

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How are you certain of that, Larry? Do you believe you have actually seen that happen to Chris right here on this board?

quote:

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To Chris Dixon: ... I believe you have chosen a righteous path and that your heart is inclined towards honoring YHWH ...

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What about the rest of us, Larry?

In context, the “righteous (name-debate) path” you have mentioned is actually a sectarian one, and the fact that others of us are participating in this discussion about that particular “debate” clearly indicates to me several hearts here “inclined toward honoring YHWH”.

Peace to you ...

Originally posted by leejosepho:
No, not always, but at times ...

Choose life
by Jonathan Rosenblum
Hamodia
April 1, 2005

…
Invariably, Yacov responds to my inquiries about Marsi with expressions of thanks to Hashem for the progress that has been made and hope for future progress ...

http://www.eliyah.com/forum2/Forum10/HTML/002258.html

BS"D
Lee, you're reading something in the quote that is not there:

"Invariably, Yacov responds to my inquiries about Marsi with expressions of thanks to Hashem (The Name) for the progress that has been made and hope for future progress ...

If I say "thanks be to Hashem" I am saying "thanks be to The Name" referring to The Name without actually writing It to keep It Holy, just as others do when they write "Hashem."

Rivkah

Originally posted by Acheson:
Hi, Rivkah:

I don't believe you intended to quote me out of context, but nevertheless this is what you did. By quoting me out of context, you make it appear as though I do not in any way support the use of "Ha-shem," even in a phrase in which the Creator is referenced. This is not true.

Here is what you quoted from me:

Originally posted by Acheson:
One way to do this while using honorable titles is to place either an article (such as "the") or a pronoun (such as "our") in front of the title. Since I have never heard anyone do such a thing with "Hashem," this is a clear indication that this word is only used as a name.

To which you replied (with Scripture quotes):

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HaShem is Hebrew for "The Name." It is not used "as a name" but is used in reference to The Name of El-him.
Vayikra 24:11 "And the Yisre'elit woman's son blasphemed The Name (HaShem) of Y-H-V-H, and cursed. And they brought him to Moshe; and his mother's name was Shelomit, the daughter of Divri, of the Tribe of Dan."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I believe the best way to vividly illustrate how I have no problem using "ha-shem" in reference to YHWH, so long as it isn't used as a name, is to point you to a posting I submitted on the second page of this thread. I closed one of my postings by writing, "Baruch hashem YHWH." This should be a "clue" that you misunderstood what I wrote.

BS"D
Hi Larry. I'm sorry if I misunderstood you and I did not realize I took your comment out of context. I will make another comment below, please let me know if I am still misunderstanding you.

With this in mind, I will now re-post the entire paragraph from which you quoted, in its full context:

As I demonstrated in a previous posting, if you can use titles such as "mother," "aunt," "father," etc. as names, the same can be done with virtually any word, including Hashem and Elohim. I believe when we compose our sentences in English, we need to make a conscious effort to show others that we in no way replace the Almighty's name. One way to do this while using honorable titles is to place either an article (such as "the") or a pronoun (such as "our") in front of the title. Since I have never heard anyone do such a thing with "Hashem," this is a clear indication that this word is only used as a name.

Ok, this is what I am addressing that I believe is your misunderstanding on the word Hashem. How would one use an article such as "the" in front of the Hebrew word "Hashem" when there is already one there? This would then read in English: the The Name. ??? Therefore, your comment of "this is a clear indication that this is only used as a name" is incorrect, because the article "the" is in the Hebrew - Ha (The) Name (Shem).

Just to further clarify my intentions, when I wrote, "Since I have never heard anyone do such a thing with "Hashem," what I meant was, "I have never heard anyone make any references to YHWH by saying or writing, "My Hashem" or "The Hashem."

They wouldn't if they knew Hebrew as the Hebrew contains "the" already. For me to write "the Hashem" (the The Name) or "our Hashem" (our The Name) would indicate to anyone who knows Hebrew that I didn't know what I was doing.

I hope this helps to clarify what I meant. I have absolutely no problem with referring to "the name (ha-shem) of YHWH." But I believe it does not honor Him when someone says, "Blessed are You, HaShem, our God, King of the Universe, who sanctifies us through His commandments ...."

That is your opinion and prerogative. But to clarify where you are misunderstanding, we do not say "Blessed are You, 'Hashem', our G-d..." when we actually recite this blessing in Hebrew. What you are quoting is this blessing in written format which we use to not bring possible desecration to HaShem (The Name).

Now let me tell you what my belief is - that a concocted name dishonors our Creator just as the not treating His Name in holiness profanes It. Observant Jews know that HaShem (The Name) is not to be taken out of Its holy context and especially the name of another placed upon Him. And because we await the Mashiach, may he soon appear, to bring Its true pronunciation, you and others can continue to condemn us if you please, we will not be forced into trying to place a concocted name upon our Creator, Baruch Hu.

Rivkah

You dissected my posting as follows:

quote:

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quote:
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To Chris Dixon: ... I believe you have chosen a righteous path and that your heart is inclined towards honoring YHWH ...
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To which you responded:

quote:

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What about the rest of us, Larry?

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I reply: For the answer, simply look into your own heart, Lee.

I really had no idea that someone would dissect such a comment from what I wrote and express remorse for apparently being "left out." It truly was not intended as an indictment against the rest of the folks who post here, but if anyone regards it as such, then I am sorry they feel that way. I simply like the questions that Chris is asking because it is an indication (to me, at least) that he is on a journey ... what some of us call a "wilderness journey." I only meant to offer him some encouragement by expressing what I did to him, but I did not mean to slight you or anyone else in the process.

You also wrote:

quote:

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In context, the “righteous (name-debate) path” you have mentioned is actually a sectarian one, and the fact that others of us are participating in this discussion about that particular “debate” clearly indicates to me several hearts here “inclined toward honoring YHWH”.

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I reply: If someone who loves YHWH enough to choose to honor Him in every way possible, including reverently calling upon His name, would cause you to label the path he has chosen a "sectarian one," then I am proud to be on that "sectarian path." Hopefully, anyone choosing such a path will be prepared to defend his reasoning with those who should happen to question him as he makes his way along his journey.

You also quoted me as follows:

quote:

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quote:
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To Chris Dixon: ... Over the past three years, I'm certain you have noticed at least one item that you and I have in common: No matter what it is you choose to believe, there will always be someone there to tell you that you have made the wrong decision ...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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To which you responded:

quote:

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How are you certain of that, Larry? Do you believe you have actually seen that happen to Chris right here on this board?

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I reply: Well, I guess I shouldn't have said I was "certain." A better choice of words would have been, "Something tells me you have noticed that no matter what it is you choose to believe, there will always be someone there to tell you that you have made the wrong decision."

All I know is, we have a truth seeker who has come here in search of fellowship with like believers who choose to call upon the name of YHWH, but from my perspective, the encouragement he is receiving is more akin to: "Don't attempt to speak the Creator's Name, Chris!! No one knows for certain how it's pronounced, and if you don't get it just right, this would constitute 'bearing false witness,' for which there is no forgiveness!"

That is the overall message I am getting from others who post here. However, since it is possible that I am misunderstanding what others are saying, maybe the overall perception I have is not actually representative of what has been expressed. Perceptions are very important, so if I have maligned anyone's message, I invite a clarification.

Likewise, if I have not made myself clear, I invite anyone to ask me to clarify anything that I have written regarding this topic.

You also quoted me as follows:

quote:

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quote:
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If you wish to use "Hashem" in direct reference to YHWH ... ...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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To which you responded:

quote:

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If you are there referring to me, you must have me confused with someone, for I am one who does *not* wish to use the word “HaShem” in reference to YHWH. Rather, I prefer to use HaShem (as best I might be able to say it).

---

I reply: Well, I guess a clarification is in order, then. You wrote the following:

quote:

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Certainly, the word "HaShem" should never be used as a substitute for HaShem, ....

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My comment: I guess I am still confused by what you meant with your second use of the word "HaShem." The way I preceive its use was as a reference to the Almighty, but obviously you must have meant something else. If you could please explain (1) How it is possible to substitute "HaShem" with "HaShem," and (2) "who" or "what" you were referring to with your second usage of the term "HaShem," that would be a big help towards my understanding what you were trying to convey.

What you wrote in your previous posting was of no help in resolving my confusion.

Finally, I will address your very first comment in your posting. To begin with, you quoted me as follows:

quote:

---

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Acheson: Hi, Lee:
I believe you may have missed a portion from my posting in which I made it clear that, in English, one can indeed use a word both as a name or as a common noun ... even by leaving out the "article" or "pronoun." However, to make it absolutely clear that we are not using a title as a name (which I do not believe is proper), we can choose to use either an article or pronoun in front of it. This removes all doubt.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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To which you responded:

quote:

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Greetings, Larry, and no, I had not missed that. Rather, I was simply responding to your comment at the end of what I saw as your overall conclusion, and within which you had even underlined the word "only":

---

quote:

---

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Acheson: I believe when we compose our sentences in English, we need to make a conscious effort to show others that we in no way replace the Almighty's name. One way to do this while using honorable titles is to place either an article (such as "the") or a pronoun (such as "our") in front of the title. Since I have never heard anyone do such a thing with "Hashem," this is a clear indication that this word is only used as a name.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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I reply: Of course, this brings us back to the same misunderstanding that Rivkah had when she, like you, quoted me out of context. I will therefore tell you the same thing I told her, with a small modification to hopefully make my point even more clear:

By quoting me out of context, you make it appear as though I do not in any way support the use of "Ha-shem," even in a phrase in which the Creator is referenced. This is not true.

I believe the best way to vividly illustrate how I have no problem using "ha-shem" in reference to YHWH, so long as it isn't used as a name, is to point you to a posting I submitted on the second page of this thread. I closed one of my postings by writing, "Baruch hashem YHWH." This should be a "clue" that you misunderstood what I wrote.

With this in mind, I will now re-post the entire paragraph from which you quoted, in its full context:

As I demonstrated in a previous posting, if you can use titles such as "mother," "aunt," "father," etc. as names, the same can be done with virtually any word, including Hashem and Elohim. I believe when we compose our sentences in English, we need to make a conscious effort to show others that we in no way replace the Almighty's name. One way to do this while using honorable titles is to place either an article (such as "the") or a pronoun (such as "our") in front of the title. Since I have never heard anyone do such a thing with "Hashem," this is a clear indication that this word is only used as a name.

Just to further clarify my intentions, when I wrote, "Since I have never heard anyone do such a thing with "Hashem," what I meant was, "I have never heard anyone make any references to YHWH by saying or writing, "My Hashem" or "The Hashem."

Thus, when someone writes something to the effect of, "HaShem has blessed us," as opposed to "Our HaShem has blessed us," this clues me in to the fact that the term "HaShem" isn't in that instance used as a "title," as some claim, but it is instead used as a name ... instead of the true name.

I hope this helps to clarify what I meant. I have absolutely no problem with referring to "the name (ha-shem) of YHWH." But I believe it does not honor Him when someone says, "Blessed are You, HaShem, our Almighty King of the Universe, who sanctifies us through His commandments ...."

Hi, Rivkah:

You wrote:

quote:

---

If I say "thanks be to Hashem" I am saying "thanks be to The Name" referring to The Name without actually writing It to keep It Holy, just as others do when they write "Hashem."

---

I reply: While your own personal intentions are certainly important, I believe you disregard the impact of the confusion that this Jewish tradition has or will have on others. The very first time that I heard expressions such as "thanks be to Hashem," I felt that "Hashem" was some foreign name, identifying someone other than the Mighty One we are supposed to worship.

Of course, I eventually learned what was going on, but I know from conversations that I have had with others that many folks have shared the same confusion that I initially felt when I heard the Jewish use of "Hashem" in reference to the Almighty. One way to avoid this confusion would be to resolve to stop using it as a name and to admit that by the grammatical rules of the English language, this is precisely what you are presently doing. I believe "Hashem" also makes a silly title, but for now, if you could simply resolve to not use the term as a name, I believe you would go a long way towards helping to stop spreading the confusion.

Again, for those who don't really believe it is a Jewish practice to use "HaShem" in place of YHWH, all one has to do is check out the various Jewish resources out there. Here is yet another quote from a Jewish website:

SHEM HASHEM
1. It is a very common practice to say (or write) HASHEM instead of saying His Name. In this week's Parsha, Chumash itself uses this word when it refers to God. Can you find that pasuk? [Hint, it's in the tochacha (towards the end).]
Attempt to explain the importance of this pasuk, and how it relates to a primary theme in Chumash.

Here's a link to the site from which I quoted the above excerpt: http://www.lind.org.il/ml_parsha/5760/kitavo60_ml.htm

You may choose to rephrase things all you want, but the end result is still the same: YHWH's great name is suppressed, and this is what is taught.

Since Chris seems to have come to this site in search of friends who share his love for YHWH's name, it seems rather like a paradox that, instead, he is being discouraged from mentioning YHWH's name.

I, for one, will step forward and encourage Chris to continue to reverently call upon YHWH's name ... whether he believes it is pronounced Yahweh, Yahueh, Yahuwah or Yahvah ... so long as he does his best to honor Him in his efforts.

Rivkah, I just noticed your latest posting (above). Since I am hearing the same arguments repeated, and since I don't see any real progress being made, I will only respond to this one:

You wrote:

quote:

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Ok, this is what I am addressing that I believe is your misunderstanding on the word Hashem. How would one use an article such as "the" in front of the Hebrew word "Hashem" when there is already one there? This would then read in English: the The Name. ??? Therefore, your comment of "this is a clear indication that this is only used as a name" is incorrect, because the article "the" is in the Hebrew - Ha (The) Name (Shem).

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I reply: I believe you are simply adding additional confusion by incorporating a foreign word into an English phrase ... and expecting the reader (or listener) to "just know" that "ha" means "the" so as to avoid clearly revealing your intentions of using "Hashem" as a title.

As I have already shown, it is a customary Jewish practice to use "HaShem" instead of the Almighty's true name ... not as a "title." If you are determined to not go along with the typical Jewish custom in this matter, you need to demonstrate it to others. Otherwise, you are still using "HaShem" as a name, just as other Jews do.

If you are going to use the "the The Name" argument, then I will challenge you to go ahead and translate the REST of the expression "hashem" into English as well, so as to avoid having to use the word "the" twice in a row.

In other words, go ahead and tell everyone how "the Name" led His people out of Egypt. Tell everyone how "the Name" has blessed you. If you translate the entire expression into English, I don't see the need of using the word "the" twice in a row. And by incorporating the word "the," you will at least be making it clear that you are using "Name" as a title, rather than as a name replacement, as most Jews do.

Yours in Messiah,

Larry

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I believe that using HaShem or any other title without using Yahweh's name with it actualy breaks the commandment of not bringing His name to nothing. with the exception of Abba Father by the authority of Yahushua. It also breaks other commands given by Yahweh about using His name. He expects us to proclaim and use His name.

quote:

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Originally posted by ChrisDixon:
I believe that using HaShem or any other title without using Yahweh's name with it actualy breaks the commandment of not bringing His name to nothing. with the exception of Abba Father by the authority of Yahushua.

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Greetings, Chris.

I am sure your above statement will please one or more sectarian crowds that will intentionally or otherwise mis-hear it in a convenient way, yet I clearly and well understand that you actually wrote it with an entirely different point in mind:

quote:

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[Abba-Father] expects us to proclaim and use His name.

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Agreed, absolutely ...

... and now, please allow to explain my above mention of "sectarian".

Whether in writing or spoken orally, here is a potentially confusing element within your opening statement:

quote:

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I believe that using HaShem ... without using Yahweh's name ...

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Actually, Chris, it is not possible to use Yahweh's name without using Yahweh's name ...

Understand? And again, please remember that I *do* understand we are each meaning to say this:

"Using the mere word 'HaShem' as Yahweh's name without using Yahweh's actual name breaks the commandment of not bringing His name to nothing."

However, there is nothing inherently wrong with writing or speaking the mere word "HaShem" ... or even the mere word "God", for that matter. Rather, what matters is that we only call by His own name The Very One who created us.

What does any or all of that have to do with "sectarian"?

At least in part, sectarianism is dependent upon confusion (or at least some uncertainty), and whether they realize it or not, there are people who actually do *not* want to clear the confusion surrounding the matter of Yahuah's name. Across from that school, however, there are also what might be called "name worshippers" of various shapes and sizes.

In my own case, coming to rightly acknowledge Yah's name at all first began with the removal of the mere word "God" (and the name "Jesus") from my own little name-worshipping vocabulary ... just as other folks need(ed) to stop using the mere word "HaShem" as Yah's name, eh?! And of course, still others who use both "HaShem" *and* "God" as names are possibly headed for double trouble! But when I had first stopped using the mere word "God" as a name, I still had that kind of mindset that caused me to next go around saying "YHVH" was the *correct* one, then "YHWH", then one or another (mis)-pronunciation of either ...

... and all the while yet bringing His name to shame.

Be cautious of "The Great Name Debate", Chris, and do not be distracted by the sectarians. Abba-Father has a name and we now know that, and Shimson and others help to keep us reminded of the necessity for regarding Abba-Father and His name with utmost respect and worship.

Point noted and taken, before I ever started to walk down this path there was this little voice in the back of my mind saying when people refered to Yahweh or Yahushua as lord or god who are you talking about Buddah, Allah or Vishnu etc. At first because I was just returning to church I just thought they were just thoughts put their by the evil one just so I would look for faults or something but these thoughts got stronger.

The thing is and I've heard people say that people know who were talking about, do they really? I live in a world were I work in a Christian CofE primary school where the children in my out of school club know and learn more about Allah than Christianity. The majority of young people in the street have never been to church or have heard of Jesus never mind Yahushua or Yahweh.

The simple matter of all this is that Yahweh did not give His name or our salvation for our benifit, but for the benifit of those who do not know Him. We are His witnessess in both word and deed and we cannot do this unless we lift His name on high in both word and deed. Because then and only then will it all draw men unto Him(His name and His Word). That is why I believe using Yahweh's name is important.

To be honest Lee as I look back at some of the posts that have been put in this topic all I can see that their views aids Satan and his plans rather than bringing honour or glory to Yahweh. If that sound abit harsh then I am sorry but I believe that it is true, and I feel this is what Yahweh's Spirit is saying to me.

quote:

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Originally posted by ChrisDixon:
Shalom Leejosepho,

Point noted and taken, before I ever started to walk down this path there was this little voice in the back of my mind saying when people refered to Yahweh or Yahushua as lord or god who are you talking about Buddah, Allah or Vishnu etc. At first because I was just returning to church I just thought they were just thoughts put their by the evil one just so I would look for faults or something but these thoughts got stronger.

The thing is and I've heard people say that people know who were talking about, do they really?

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Greetings, Chris, and understood. With the matter of names aside for just a moment, there are people all around us who only *think* they know truth ... and they knowingly or otherwise propagate lies. Hence, and after context has been considered, I can also be quite skeptical when someone says something like, “Well, you know who/what I mean.”

quote:

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I live in a world were I work in a Christian CofE primary school where the children in my out of school club know and learn more about Allah than Christianity. The majority of young people in the street have never been to church or have heard of Jesus never mind Yahushua or Yahweh.

The simple matter of all this is that Yahweh did not give His name or our salvation for our benifit, but for the benifit of those who do not know Him. We are His witnessess in both word and deed and we cannot do this unless we lift His name on high in both word and deed. Because then and only then will it all draw men unto Him(His name and His Word). That is why I believe using Yahweh's name is important.

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In my own situation, and without saying you are wrong, I am occasionally more inclined to simply refer to YHWH as “The One who created all things, including us” ... and I first began doing that in A.A. meetings where the word “God” had become no longer definitive. For in those kinds of situations, trying to prove the matter of a name can at times only further the problem of someone saying something like, “Well, you have *your* god just as I have mine and others also each have their own.”

quote:

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To be honest Lee as I look back at some of the posts that have been put in this topic all I can see that their views aids Satan and his plans rather than bringing honour or glory to Yahweh. If that sound abit harsh then I am sorry but I believe that it is true, and I feel this is what Yahweh's Spirit is saying to me.

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Personally, I believe people having “positions” almost always aids our adversary, for confusion dominantly resides in and thrives on their defense.

Originally posted by Acheson:
Hi, Rivkah:

You wrote:

quote:
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If I say "thanks be to Hashem" I am saying "thanks be to The Name" referring to The Name without actually writing It to keep It Holy, just as others do when they write "Hashem."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I reply: While your own personal intentions are certainly important, I believe you disregard the impact of the confusion that this Jewish tradition has or will have on others. The very first time that I heard expressions such as "thanks be to Hashem," I felt that "Hashem" was some foreign name, identifying someone other than the Mighty One we are supposed to worship.

BS"D
Hi Larry.

You may very well say that the first time ever you heard/read the Hebrew word "HaShem" confused you, but after learning its meaning the confusion should have been cleared.

If I spoke only Hebrew and heard you say "Mighty One" I could also feel that this was some foreign name, identifying someone other than Creator that we are suppose to worship. I believe all I would have to do is ask for clarification and then leave it be, I would not insist on trying to strip your language from you, or pretend to have superior knowledge of your language than you do.

Should we also erase the part of Scripture that refers to our Creator’s Name with the Hebrew HaShem?

Devarim 28:58 leyira et-HASHEM hanichbad vehanora hazeh – to fear the respected and awesome name.

Besides, I have never used the word HaShem when quoting Scripture, in fact I don’t believe I have ever used “HaShem” in this list until recently in reply to posts specifically concerning this. Even so, if I were to, I would only be referring in Hebrew to The Name (HaShem) of our Creator, just as you say you are referring to Him with the English words Mighty One. If I choose to write with the word HaShem when referring to “The Name” at least I am referring to His actual Name instead of possible calling Him by another.

As I have previously said in another post, my usage of Hebrew is not up for debate, it is WHO I am, and I will not be forced into putting a concocted name upon our Creator nor will I attempt to take It out of Its holy context and thereby profaning HaShem/The Name. I will not attempt to apply a name that I have no way of knowing it is the correct one just to satisfy you and others here.

You may continue to condemn Observant Jews for not following after your teachings of our language – even so, middah keneged middah.

SHEM HASHEM
1. It is a very common practice to say (or write) HASHEM instead of saying His Name.

This is true, it is common practice to refer to the “The Name” (HaShem) without pronouncing It or writing it for two reasons, 1) We do not know Its pronounciation until Mashiach comes and restores this knowledge to us, 2) Even if we knew It we would not take it out of Its holy context by saying It or writing it in a casual setting or setting where it could be desecrated.

You may choose to rephrase things all you want, but the end result is still the same: YHWH's great name is suppressed, and this is what is taught.

I'm not rephrasing anything, it is your lack of understanding of Hebrew that causes you to think this. And the Name of El-him is NOT be suppressed, that is again a misunderstanding on your part. HaShem/The Name of El-him is being kept holy and from profanation by Observant Jews, as we are instructed to do by Torah (Vayikra 22:32).

Rivkah

I hope I did not cause any offence in the way I wrote the lastpost i was a little exasperated when I wrote it but it was not intended to be directed at you in any way.

I have attempted twice now just in this posting to express the fear I have concerning this matter. All I know it has to do with the great commission Yahushua gave his disciples before His ascension and continues through unto us. I maybe wrong I don't know.

Yes I agree with our Jewish brothers and sisters about the need to keep Yahweh's name Holy, but at the expense of bringing glory and honour to His name I'm not so sure.

As far as I know it is probably the last time I comment on this topic because I don't think it is going anywhere.

May Yahweh bless and keep you.
Chris

PS. Would that blessing I gave you have the same effect if I substuted Yahweh's name with a title. Just an after thought.