quote:

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Acheson wrote:
You provide lots of technical attempts at expressing that there is a difference in the pronunciations of those two words/expressions, but the bottom line is, I have testimony from a rabbi, as well as info from Strong's and the Septuagint, that the two are pronounced the same. The fact that they are two different words has no bearing on the matter to me. The fact that they are pronounced the same and have apparently always been pronounced the same is sufficient to give me even more reason for me to not want to refer to YHWH as "HaShem."

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This is what I mean about people needing to learn Hebrew. I have not provided any "technical attempts" to do such any such thing. I have studied Hebrew and can read it. What I have provided comes from the language and from people who have actually studied it, and I am not asking anyone to believe it or me. You don't agree with the sources, then dispute the sources with more accurate data. Yet, as I mentioned before it is real easy for people who don't even know the language to make all kind of claims about it, and not have the abilitiy to read a simple Hebrew text.

You have not produced proof from a Rabbi (or any souce) that Hey (Pathahh) - Shin-Dagesh (Tzere) - Mem and Hey (Qametz) - Shin (Tzere) - Mem are the same pronunciation or even from the same Shoresh. Rabbi Sraga Simmons from Aish never made any such statement, and IF you were to ask him if in Ancient Hebrew Qametz and Pathahh were the same sound he would tell you no, just as the people I questioned on it said including one of Rabbi Simmons' collegues at Aish. Besides Rabbi Simmons' contradicted what you are claiming Strong's says i.e. Haw-sheme. Using the logic from the next comment you made Rabbi Simmons' from Aish never used the - nor did he add an "e" at the end so either your source from Rabbi Simmons' is incorrect or Strong's is. Which is it? You are grossly misrepresenting what Rabbi Simmons stated.

So once again I challenge you to ask Rabbi Simmons the following questions.

1) In Ancient Hebrew were Qametz and Pathahh the same sound?

2) What is the shoreshim of Hey (Pathahh) - Shin-Dagesh (Tzere) - Mem and Hey (Qametz) - Shin (Tzere) - Mem? Are they from the same shoresh? What are the differences between the two words?

3) In Ancient Hebrew do Hey (Pathahh) - Shin-Dagesh (Tzere) - Mem and Hey (Qametz) - Shin (Tzere) - Mem have the same pronunciation?

4) Do Jews reading biblical Hebrew mistake Hey (Pathahh) - Shin-Dagesh (Tzere) - Mem with Hey (Qametz) - Shin (Tzere) - Mem? Please also show a phonetic renedering of both.

I challenge you to ask him these questions, and explain to him your position on it. Lets see if he agrees with you. It doesn't have to be only him, I challenge to ask anyone who is a Hebrew scholar the exact same questions.

On the issue of Strong's agreeing with you. This is not true either. Strongs is not claiming that Hey (Pathahh) - Shin-Dagesh (Tzere) - Mem and Hey (Qametz) - Shin (Tzere) - Mem have the same pronunciation. I looked in the Strong's and found what I listed.

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Acheson wrote:
I noticed that you once again misspelled the phonetic rendering as found in Strong's. I am puzzled as to why you choose to spell that phonetic rendering "Hawsheme," whereas Strong's spells it "Haw-shame."

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My assumption was that we were talking about Hebrew, the Hebrew text does not have dashes in the middle of words. I assumed that you knew enough Hebrew to know the difference in two syllabes, which is the ONLY reason Strong's put the dash there to begin with. Besides, you mentioned that it was Hashem, Hawshem, and now you are saying Haw-shame. Transliterating is not the issue here, it is 1) Hebrew and how it pronounced and 2) whether or not a native Hebrew speaker would confuse the two and the answer is no. It is no different than someone trying to act like Ayin and Alef have the same sound because in English a similar symbol is used. Obviously what ever text you are reading from is not the same as the Torah Tajjim or the Samaritan Torah.

Now lets go back to the Te'udah issue because I believe that is extremely important. Now as I mentioned before Yeshayahu 8:20 is very clear about Am Yisrael having both to determine if a matter has any dawn in it. As I mentioned before the claim of, "Just pick a pronunciation" doesn't match the Te'udah of Am Yisrael and is not something that we do. Especially, when one points out that some of the theoretical pronunciations, even the popular ones, are said by some competant scholars to have roots in paganism. So going by the Te'udah Yeshuyahu 8:20 and the Minhagei Torah Acts 21:18-24 Jews for the most part await the Mashi'ahh in order to not 1) make potential false claims about how Yod-Hey-Waw-Hey was(is) pronounced and 2) in order to honor Elohim and allow Him to the one to close the gap.

The Te'udah of Am Yisrael also is that (Shin-Mem) "shem" in Hebrew is not only a designation of a pronunciation and that its meaning goes far beyond just pronunciation. That is why knowing the meaning of Yod-Hey-Waw-Hey for us proceeds the pronunciation, because in order to really investigate such an issue from a Hebrew perspective one would have to know the meaning of said word.

Now if your Te'udah says something different then that is YOUR Te'duah, and I am not judging you or any person who believes that they are calling upon the pronunciation of Yod-Hey-Waw-Hey. As I mentioned before the ENTIRE context of what I have been stating is relating to what Jews/Am Yisrael are commanded to do and not to do. If you are following Yeshayahu 8:20 with the Te'udah that was given to you then that is what you are to follow.

To sum up my points on this.

Point #1: Hey (Qametz) - Shin (Tzere) - Mem and Hey (Pathahh) - Shin-Dagesh (Tzere) - Mem don't sound the same in pronunciation and are not the same word i.e. not from the same Shoresh.

Point #2: Am Yisrael and Geirim don't have the problem of mixing up the two words, because anyone who knows even a small amount of Hebrew knows the difference. Also, as mentioned before most people are not that dense where they would have a problem not knowing that these are two different words. Just as someone who knows Hebrew knows the different between Ayin (Qametz) - Sin (Qametz) - Hey and Ayin (Seghol) - Sin (Seghol) - Hey, without vowel points they look exactly the same, but people who know Hebrew know, which is which.

Point #3: Most Jews do no try to place theoritical pronunciations in Yod-Hey-Waw-Hey because of the effects of the events of the 3rd cent. BCE to 2nd cent. CE. Also, because for a Jew to lift up something that is false would be a breach of Shemoth 20:6 since proclaiming such would be a false Neder, especially in light of the various theories and the claims that some of them are of pagan connection. This is due to the Te'udah (Yeshayahu 8:20) of Am Yisrael and the Minhagei Torah 21:18-24.

Point #4: Most Jews are willing to allow Elohim to re-establish all the missing peices with the coming of Mashi'ahh ben-Dawith. This is due also to the Te'udah of Am Yisrael.

Point #5: The Te'udah and the Minhagei Torah of Jews is not incumbant on non-Jews and non-Geirim. I.e. people who are neither Jewish or live in a Jewish community as a part of that community are not required to take on or live by the Te'udah or the Minhagei Torah of Am Yisrael.

Point #6: Non-Jews and non-Geirim can chose to do what ever they feel they need to do in terms of living by Torah (including this issue). This is especially true if they are people who are neither Jewish or live in a Jewish community as a part of that community. There is no command for them to take on the Te'udah or Minhagei Torah of Jews.

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Acheson wrote:
The Jewish teaching against mentioning the Creator's name reminds me of the Babylonian mysteries. The following quotation is from A.H. Sayce's Religion of the Ancient Babylonians, p. 4:
Religion has always loved to cloak itself in mystery, and a priesthood is notoriously averse from revealing in plain language the secrets of which it believes itself the possessor. The priesthood of Babylonia formed no exception to the general rule ... and the true pronunciation of divine names was carefully hidden from the uninitiated multitude.

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Tarfon's account, that the voice of the high priest was drowned by the song of the other priests, also confirms the synchronous statement (Yer. Yoma 40b) that in former times the high priest uttered the Name with a loud voice, but that subsequently, when immorality had become more and more prevalent, he lowered his voice lest the Name should be heard by those unworthy to hear it. The earliest instance of the dread of pronouncing the Tetragrammaton, and of the use of the paraphrasis "Adonai" instead, is found in the Septuagint rendering of Kurios = "Lord." The mishnah (Berakot, end) mentions also an utterance of the Tetragrammaton outside the Sanctuary which was permitted and even commanded, saying that "it was ordained that the name of Elohim should be used in the ordinary forms of greeting, which were the same as those exchanged between Boaz and the reapers [Ruth ii. 2], or the salutation of the angel to Gideon [Judges vi. 12]."

Thus says Tosef., Ber. vi. 23: Formerly they used to greet each other with the Ineffable Name; when the timeof the decline of the study of the Torah came, the elders mumbled the Name. Subsequently also the solemn utterance of the Name by the high priest on the Day of Atonement, that ought to have been heard by the priests and the people, according to the Mishnah Yoma, vi. 2, became inaudible or indistinct.

As mentioned before it has been claimed on one end that we Jews are hiding pronunciation of Yod-Hey-Waw-Hey, yet it has also been claimed that Jews agree on it being pronounced as "Yahweh." So which is it? Are you saying that we are hiding it by some people claiming it is Yahweh? Also, the Kariates say that Yihweh is what it is and that there is no way it was Yahweh. The Karaites are Jews, and they don't fit into your mold. If the Karaites are correct then you are wrong, if you are correct then the Karaites are wrong. Besides any person who goes out and takes the time to learn even a little bit of Hebrew can EASILY find out all of the theories by going through a Binyan chart with either Hey-Waw-Hey, Hey-Yod-Hey, or Hey-Waw-Yod and find all of the theories.

You also say that it is okay for person to call Elohim by whatever method they have concluded Yod-Hey-Waw-Hey to be pronounced as and Elohim is merciful. Yet, you seem to imply that He is not merciful on the Jew who would not lift up incorrect spellings and prounications about His Name. That is a bit of a weird double standard. Yet, as I mentioned before:

For a Jew,as I mentioned before, the Hebrew Torah commands us not to lift up false information about Elohim. In the Teimani Torah Tajj, Shemoth 20:6 it states, "Lo tiso' ath shem YHWH Alohakho lashow' ki lo yinaqqah YHWH ath ashar yiwo shmo lashow.'". Translated this means, You will not lift up/raise up/bear/ Name/Renown of YHWH your Elohim to falsehood/false (or incorrect nedarim). Because YHWH does not forgive whom will lift up/raise up/bear His Name to falsehood/false (or incorrect nedarim)." You can take that and interpret that anyway you want it, but as a Jew I am prohibited from spreading false information about any aspect of Him because HE said that HE doesn't forgive such. Because the Yemenite Torah Tajjim are clear on Shemoth 20:6 the issue is a straight and easy one, and the Aramaic Tarjum of Onkelos also indicates this (La teme bishma daYHWH lemagana are la yezake YHWH yath deyeme bishmeh leshiqra).

I mentioned before the Tanakh is a neder so it is completely understandable why it records times when Israel knew EXACTLY how to pronounce Yod-Hey-Waw-Hey. According to the Te'udah of Am Yisrael we await the Mashi'ahh to restore the full knowledge of Elohim. Until then most Jewish sources discuss ALL the theories instead of misleading people into thinking that one is better than another, based on human understanding. i.e. only giving people part of the story instead of giving them all the information to make their own decisions. The above is according to the Te'udah of Am Yisrael, and non Jews and non-Geirim are not bound to it.

Originally posted by Acheson:
As I have previously mentioned, I don't believe you seem able to glean obvious facts from anything you read.

BS"D
You remind me of Bilam, you try to accuse Torah Jews but your words come back on you - actually represent you. So far you have not produced anything that contained facts, and any that may you misunderstand and construe it to fit your concepts, i.e. not gleaning the obvious facts within.

You have thus far taken issue with the translation of the Chumash, which was NOT translated by Messianics or non-Orthodoxy, therefore Messianic & non-Orthodox sources are not applicable.

Rivkah

Originally posted by Acheson:
Therefore, just in case my "cutting to the chase" should in any way assist in giving you the answer you seek, I would like for you to not replace the Tetragrammaton at all, whether in reading from the Hebrew text, paraphrasing, or in translating.

Torah Jews do not replace His Name.

Instead, I would like for you to actually honor YHWH by reverently speaking His name. That name is YAHWEH.

The Torah does not instructs us that to reverence His Name is to speak it, what the Torah instructs is to keep His Name holy and not profane it.

Replacing His Name with a concocted name and calling upon Him with the name of another is profanation of the Name.

Rivkah

Originally posted by Acheson:
Of course, you maintain that you aren't "really" substituting names/terms. If you would like to put your "money where your mouth is," so to speak, why don't you just go ahead and "not substitute" names this way with each and every Scriptural reference you make?

As an example for what I mean, why don't you tell others that you worship the Elohim of SHEM, of SHEM, and of SHEM? You know, the same people mentioned in Exodus 3:15?

BS"D
Why should I do that when we know the pronunciation of Avraham, Yitzchak and Yaakov, we do not know the pronunciation of The Name of El-him.

Rivkah

[This message has been edited by Rivkah (edited 04-13-2005).]

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Acheson wrote:
I reply: I agree that there is no command for anyone to attempt to pronounce the name of the Almighty. However, in view of the 6,823 recorded instances in which His name was either written or directly spoken, I am fully persuaded that this is what the ancients did. I believe they would have dismissed your "avoidance rationale" as being mirmâh, as do I. Personally, I believe the adversary would like nothing more than to cause the whole world to forget or otherwise not use the Creator's name, and I believe he has used many people who unwittingly carry out his scheme under the guise that it is "too holy to pronounce" or "too holy to risk mis-pronouncing."

Do you believe the adversary wants anyone to call upon the name of the Creator?

I certainly do not believe he (the adversary) wants anyone to know or use that name in any praiseworthy manner.

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Greetings Larry,

I pray you are well. I had just noticed that you asked this question, and I am glad that you did. First off, I never made any kind of statement that in the time period that the Tanakh describes that there was not a full knowledge at that point of The Name of Elohim. According Jewish texts such as the Talmud and the Midrash during that period it was known and used respectfully. During that time the Kohanim who know 100% how Yod-Hey-Waw-Hey was pronounced made sure and kept accounts of how it was pronounced, also because Elohim interacted directly with Nevi'im (prophets) and such. Jewish texts and Talmud verify this also. After Israel was conquered and after the death of Shimson Ha-Tzadiq, as I mentioned before is when things changed. The Talmud verifies this also. So as I have stated before the time that the Torah records and the current time are different. Now in terms of what you define as as my "avoidance rationale" and how the Hhokhmei Yisrael of the past would have done, you nor I are in any position to say what they would and would not do with the current situation. i.e. you nor I can make a decision for them based on current circumstances and I would be bearing false witness of them to claim what they would do. What I do know is that their circumstances are completely different than mine. The Te'udah mentioned in Yeshayahu 8:20 gives a clear path of decision in a situation when the pronunciaiton of Yod-Hey-Waw-Hey is not certain and what I Jew should do. As I mentioned before I don't "avoid" the issue, ANYONE who wants to know all the theories and the pros and cons of each can easily ask me and get that information as I have displayed on this site. I am not however willing, with what I know about Hebrew and from my own research in Israel, to lift up a potentially false pronunciation of Yod-Hey-Waw-Hey since doing so would be a false neder.

Now in terms of what the adversary wants. I believe that the adversary is dealing with the issues of emunah "faith" on levels way beyond just pronunciations. In the past when Eli was Kohen over Israel the adversary didn't stop him from knowing the pronunciation of Yod-Hey-Waw-Hey. The satan dealt with Eli through his sons, who were Kohanim that were breaking Torah right in the presense of Elohim. Qorahh was also no different he proclaimed the name of Elohim in order to claim that Mosheh was not complying with YHWH. (Bemidbar 16:3) I believe that advesary was working when Solomon started worshipping pagan deities of his wives, even though he full well know how to pronounce Elohim's Name. Also, the Israelites who became pagans, some of which called the pagan deities by the Name of Elohim, also had the right pronunciation, but the wrong Te'udah. Yeshua even says that there will be many coming to him saying that they did "DEEDS" in his name and he mentions that he never knew them because of their actions. There are people who the adversary can manipulate whether they know how to pronounce Yod-Hey-Waw-Hey or not. Some can be misled simply because of how their thoughts and actions are due to their belief that they know how to pronounce Elohim's name.

The adversary was working long before The Name of Elohim became uncertain, and I am certain he will be working until Elohim stops him in his tracks. I believe that IF one wants to claim that the adversary is out to prevent people from knowing the pronunciation THEN it would also stand to reason that he could also have people pronouncing the names of pagan deities foreign to Israel. He could do all this while having people thinking that they are correctly pronouncing Yod-Hey-Waw-Hey all the while their pronunciation could be derived from pagan wind and storms as some suggest of the pronunciation that you have picked. He could also have people wasting their lives trying to prove something, that they themselves don't have sufficient evidence or knowledge of to prove in the first place. He could also help someone concentrate on the pronunciation that the person does not reflect the character of The One whom the Name is of. He could also fool scholars into claiming that one pronunciation or another is more probable, and then people read information of said scholar and make up whole theologies on one bit of information. The adversary can work in a number of different ways and is not limited. Knowing the character of Elohim and walking in the the Mitzwoth is how one can combat that. Besides as I mentioned before Jews pray three times a day that YHWH Ehhad, uShmo Ehhad. When Elohim wants Am Yisrael to again pronounce His Name He will cause Am Yisrael to know it without flaw as He made happen at Har Sinai where it is said that Am Yisrael of that time spoke with one voice.

My belief is that the advesary's ultimate goal is to distract some people from knowing the character of Elohim, and others to tear away at their lives slowly by causing them to loose sight (even if breifly) of the character of Elohim. The study of Torah is what conteracts the advesary as Yeshua displayed when he was fasting and was tempted. In each of his rebuttals he called out the characteristics of what it means to live by the Davar YHWH. If all he needed was just a pronunciation then all he would have needed to say was the Tetragrammeton, but that is more a pagan magic spell business, one that the Megusshim (Magis) were into.

As I mentione before, you think you know how to pronounce Yod-Hey-Waw-Hey good may Elohim bless in that. You believe that all Jews should pronounce it then pray that Elohim makes the knowledge of such 100% known. We pray for that three times a day.

quote:

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Acheson wrote:
Therefore, just in case my "cutting to the chase" should in any way assist in giving you the answer you seek, I would like for you to not replace the Tetragrammaton at all, whether in reading from the Hebrew text, paraphrasing, or in translating. Instead, I would like for you to actually honor YHWH by reverently speaking His name. That name is YAHWEH.

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Greetings Larry,

I pray you are well. Are you now claiming that the pronounciation that you are requesting that Rivkah use is how Yod-Hey-Waw-Hey was pronounced? Are you by this request also stating that every other theory is wrong? Your words now seem to suggest that you are "completely" sure that this "is" how Yod-Hey-Waw-Hey was/is pronounced without any doubt. So are you now making the neder that all others are incorrect i.e. Yihweh, Yahwi, Yehuwah, Yehowah, Yahwah, Yahaweh, etc? If a Karaite were to request that she use Yihweh, are you now saying that she must use your theory, because the Karaites are incorrect? Are you also requesting her to ignore information from scholars who say that the pronunciation you have deemed valid may have directly come from the name of a pagan deity? Are you now saying that said scholarship is completely wrong and inaccurate? Put it simply are you requesting that Rivkah ignore all other theories and consider your theory as fact, as your words now seem to imply?

By your words am I safe to assume that you are making a neder (oath) that your words, That name is YAHWEH. can be taken literally?

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Eloah immakhem,

Shimson bar-Tzadoq

quote:

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Acheson wrote:
I reply: Okay, so NOW you're admitting that there is such a thing as an "ineffable name doctrine"? In other words, even IF you were to somehow become persuaded that the true pronunciation was never lost, you STILL wouldn't speak it because "It IS too holy to pronounce out of the context of holiness"??

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Greetings Larry,

If you read Rivkah's statement, your response does not make any sense.

Rivkah said:
It IS too holy to pronounce out of the context of holiness, and within the context of holiness only when It is known.

She never mentioned anything about a doctrine, or about persuation is saying that Torah observant Jews, when the Name of Elohim is known will not bring it into an un-Qodesh context. What this means has already been explained. Also, So as I said before Larry, it not a matter of being "persuaded" it is a matter of when The Name of Elohim is known then Jews will pronounce Yod-Hey-Waw-Hey within the context of Qedushah (Set-Apartness) when it is known. Of course not just for the sake of a pronunciation, but for the sake of its meaning, which is what is uncertain thus the pronunciation is uncertain. If it was certain then there would be no place of debate about how it was pronounced.

At the moment people with various pronunciations claim it is known, and even when they claim that others could "possibly" have a correct pronunciation they still eventually go back to claiming that their's is right in a way where others would logically have ot be wrong, which is a neder. Once again there are a LOT of opinions about theories some of which have the possibility of being pagan in origin that being said. That is why we Jews who live by Torah will wait for Mashi'ahh to make it clear, until then exemplifying the "character" of Elohim, which is what our Te'udah says the meaning of proclaiming His Name/Fame/Renown which are ALL meanings of the word "shem" not just the one meaning that you have chosen.

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Eloah immakhem,

quote:

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Originally posted by Shimson bar-Tzadoq:
... wait for Mashi'ahh to make it clear, until then exemplifying the "character" of Elohim, which is ... the meaning of proclaiming His Name/Fame/Renown which are ALL meanings of the word "shem" ...

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To those who are unsure as to what to make of all of this, there above is the primary issue we need to know, to consider and to address!

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To post to any of these forums with the exception of "The True Faith" forum, you must agree with the following scriptural understandings:
...
Belief that we should return and use the original names for the Father and the Messiah instead of substitutes or man made alterations ...
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... such as the *past* character we have "used" to exemplify the "other-gods" of our various religions.

And for now, we have our Jewish and other friends to keep us reminded that our actions always speak more loudly than our words.

And personally, I can tell you that our Abba-Father is not prone to revealing His name to people who have all of that backwards.

Shoresh
Geirim
Teu'dah
Am
Binyan
Neder

There are many more, but that's enough for now.

2 questions for Shimson:

1. I the "rules" you go by are only for "Jews" and "Geirim"(?), what rules should non-Jewish Israelites go by? I ask this because most of those on this forum who aren't "Jews" are probably part of the House of Israel (non-Jewish Israelites), and we believe that we should be obeying YHWH's Law.

2. If reading/quoting Scripture and pronouncing the Name of "YHWH" and not quite getting it perfect is considered giving false information, is it not much more false to replace it with a word that bears no resemblance to "YHWH", such as "HaShem" or "Adonai" or "Elohim" or any English substitute?

And a comment for Rivkah: You wrote:

quote:

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Replacing His Name with a concocted name and calling upon Him with the name of another is profanation of the Name.

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