quote:

---

Acheson wrote:
I realize you and I approach our worship of the Almighty from vastly different perspectives. As a completely independent student of the Word who has no ax to grind, no following to impress, no unscriptural traditions to hold on to, I simply do not follow the reasoning behind preferring Hashem. Even if I were to be completely mistaken in how I pronounce the Almighty's name, He alone knows my heart and my desire to use His name in a manner that brings Him honor. And if the pronunciation is wrong, I am thankful to serve a loving and merciful Heavenly Father
It seems that the "Jewish perspective" regarding mentioning the Tetragrammaton depends upon which Jew you ask. I believe the 6,823 + appearances of the Tetragrammaton in Scripture speaks loudly in support of calling upon that name and mentioning it to others, so I am inclined to accept Cohen's remark about laymen freely speaking the Name. I know Abraham did (Gen. 12:8) and I believe Yeshua did, too. At least He said He did (John 17:6, 26), and I believe Him. Everyone else out there can choose to refer to the Almighty however they choose, so far as I'm concerned, but as for me and my house we will continue to call upon YHWH.

---

Greetings Larry,

I pray you are well. The fact that you others seem to keep going back to this similar type of point makes me feel like I need to AGAIN restate something I made clear earlier in this and in another thread. I have posted the following several times, and I feel it clearly makes my point evident.

I don't have any need to hide anything from anyone, which is why I am always more than willing to give anyone ALL of the theories and then let them research it from there. You don't have to trust any Jew on this, NO ONE is asking you to trust a Jew and there is no command for you to do things Jews do in terms of Minhagei Torah mentioned in Acts 21:18-24.

Jews have VARIOUS opinions on this, and other things so there is no UNIVERSAL opinion as some of you seem to claim. Besides ANY PERSON who reads a Jewish Torah text with commentary can find that many of them list all the possibilities of the pronounciation. On one end several people claim we Jews are HIDING the Name, and then they reference Jewish sources concerning how the Name was pronounced. So once again if we Jews are hiding the name, how is it that you found Jewish sources talking about it?

I know of SEVERAL Torah texts where the commentaries give ALL the possibilities, so nothing is being hidden in the Jewish community. Anyone who learns Hebrew can also find all of the possibilities. If anything I think you need to put blame on those who taught you as a child, instead of us. If you read a Christian bible as a kid that didn't teach you about these matters your blame should be one the people who produced the bible you read from.

As I mentioned before you and any other Sacred Namer can do anything you want in this area. No one is trying to stop you from believing anything or doing anything.

Is the Name of HaShem important, of course it is. EVERY aspect of Him is important, especially since Shem in Hebrew means more than just name. Yet, it is more important for me as a Jew to be intellectually honest with myself, everyone else, and most especially Elohim. If I don't have 100% proof something, I abide by Yeshayahu 8:20. As a Jew this is the standard I am called to. If the nations feel that they know The Name then Kol HaKavod (more power) to them. I am not one to tell anyone what they should and shouldn't do. I am no ruler or authority over the non-Jewish world, and I don't wish it any ill will. In fact if I did I wouldn't post here. That is why I am quick to correct people when they use "we" and "us" for me. I have NEVER told anyone they should not use what they BELIEVE the Name to be.

------------------
Eloah immakhem,

You wrote:

quote:

---

Is the Name of HaShem important, of course it is. EVERY aspect of Him is important, especially since Shem in Hebrew means more than just name. Yet, it is more important for me as a Jew to be intellectually honest with myself, everyone else, and most especially Elohim.

---

I reply: The part of the sentence of yours I emboldened above is confusing to me. If translated all in English it literally reads:

...the name of the name...

If translated in Hebrew it reads:

...ha shem (of) ha shem...

Could you please show me anywhere in the Law, Prophets, or Writings where someone was admonished to call upon "the name of the name"? Or anywhere where the Creator said "My name is 'the name'"?

Shalom,

Matthew Janzen

quote:

---

Originally posted by emjanzen:
Hi, Shimson,

You wrote:

[b]I reply: The part of the sentence of yours I emboldened above is confusing to me. If translated all in English it literally reads:

...the name of the name...

If translated in Hebrew it reads:

...ha shem (of) ha shem...

Could you please show me anywhere in the Law, Prophets, or Writings where someone was admonished to call upon "the name of the name"? Or anywhere where the Creator said "My name is 'the name'"?

Shalom,

Matthew Janzen

[/B]

---

Greetings Matthew,

I pray you are well. I actually answered your question in previous posts. On your first point on the meaning of Hey (Pathahh) - Shem (Tzere) - Mem, I covered this earlier.

Shimson wrote:
This is not the same as HaShem from the shoresh (Shin-Mem) which is spelled Hey (Pathakh)-Shin (Tzere)-Mem and means "The Named One," "The Renowned One," or "The Famed One." How do we know this because in Hebrew a Substantive Adjective is a noun, which is what HaShem is. A substantive by itself like Hhakham for example means "wise one" where when it is an adjective it means "wise." By extension hehhakham is translated as, "the wise one." (Basics of Biblical Hebrew, page 65) This are OFTEN used for example HaQadosh means "The Se-Apart One." Qedoshim means "Set-Apart Ones." Just as HaBorei doesn't simple mean "The Create" it can also mean "The One Who Creates." Just as HaMashi'ahh means "The Anointed one" (Analytical Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon) and so it is not un-scriptural to call Eluwwim by a title.

So a correct translation of what I wrote would be "The Name of The Renowned One or The Famed One. No different than saying "The Name of HaQadosh" i.e. "The Name of the Set-Apart One." People who know Hebrew would have no problem understanding this. No different than someone reading a Hebrew text knows how to the portions of the Torah where YHWH (Yod-Hey-Waw-Hey) YHWH (Yod-Hey-Waw-Hey) shows up. 10 or more different pronunciations of Yod-Hey-Waw-Hey in my eyes is confusing, especially since they can't all be correct at the same time.

On your second question, I think you need to go back over all my statements made in this thread. I have actually answered that question a number of times. I never stated that there was an admonishment for someone "pronouncing" Yod-Hey-Waw-Hey during the time of the Torah, Nevi'im, and Kethuvim. What I stated before OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER again, is that there are a lot of OPINIONS and THEORIES on what the pronounciation of Yod-Hey-Waw-Hey was (is), and anyone who asks me will get every single one of the THEORIES along with the pros and cons of each one.

Besides I haven't replaced Yod-Hey-Waw-Hey with Hey (Pathahh) - Shin (Tzere) - Mem in any place where I was quoting something from the Tanakh.

Once again I suggest you go back read all of my comments on this thread, as I have covered this several times in detail.

Lehitra'oth,

------------------
Eloah immakhem,

Shimson bar-Tzadoq

quote:

---

Is the Name of HaShem important, of course it is.

---

quote:

---

Could you please show me anywhere in the Law, Prophets, or Writings where someone was admonished to call upon "the name of the name"? Or anywhere where the Creator said "My name is 'the name'"?

---

quote:

---

So a correct translation of what I wrote would be "The Name of The Renowned One or The Famed One".

---

Could you please show us anywhere in the Law, Prophets, or Writings where someone was admonished to call upon the name of the "Renowned One"? Or anywhere where the Creator said "My name is 'the Famed One'"?

Simple question; please, a simple answer.

I might add that the "Renowned One" or "Famed One", doesn't identify anybody. If i said the Famed One is coming to town, it could be the President of the US, or it could be Queen Elizabeth, or Elvis. The term is ambiguous, and the point of the question was to show whether Scripture ever refers to YHWH by that title, or commands its use in the same way that it commands the use of "YHWH".

Blessings,

------------------
Chuck Baldwin

[This message has been edited by chuckbaldwin (edited 03-02-2005).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by chuckbaldwin:
Could you please show us anywhere in the Law, Prophets, or Writings where someone was admonished to call upon the name of the "Renowned One"?

---

For starters:

"... whosoever shall call on the name of YHWH shall be saved" (Acts 2:21; Romans 10:13).

Who besides "The One Who Is" could even possibly there be referenced?

What is your point, Chuck, Larry or anyone else?

Personally, I am sick of your arrogant, witchcraft-based banterings with Shimson or anyone else who actually *has* given very clear answers you just do not happen to like.

quote:

---

Could you please show us anywhere in the Law, Prophets, or Writings where someone was admonished to call upon the name of the "Renowned One"?

---

quote:

---

For starters:

"... whosoever shall call on the name of YHWH shall be saved" (Acts 2:21; Romans 10:13).

---

You wrote:

quote:

---

Who besides "The One Who Is" could even possibly there be referenced?

---

You wrote;

quote:

---

What is your point, Chuck, Larry or anyone else?

---

You wrote:

quote:

---

Personally, I am sick of your arrogant, witchcraft-based banterings with Shimson or anyone else who actually *has* given very clear answers you just do not happen to like.

---

Lastly, you wrote:

quote:

---

Put a lid on it.

---

In YHWH's service,

------------------
Chuck Baldwin

quote:

---

Originally posted by chuckbaldwin:
... you wrote: "Put a lid on it."

... EliYah has control of the "lid". If i have been offensive or have overstepped any boundaries, i'm sure he will "put the lid on it".

---

Personally, I doubt that, but that is EliYah's call.

quote:

---

Originally posted by chuckbaldwin:
Hi Shimson; you wrote: Is the Name of HaShem important, of course it is.

Then Matthew asked: Could you please show me anywhere in the Law, Prophets, or Writings where someone was admonished to call upon "the name of the name"? Or anywhere where the Creator said "My name is 'the name'"?

Then, in response to Matthew's question (which you didn't really answer), you subsequently explained:

So a correct translation of what I wrote would be [b]"The Name of The Renowned One or The Famed One"

Based on your "translation", i will re-phrase Matthew's question. If you would, please answer it without a long discourse on the Hebrew language, or how to or how not to prounouce "YHWH", since that isn't the question being asked:

Could you please show us anywhere in the Law, Prophets, or Writings where someone was admonished to call upon the name of the "Renowned One"? Or anywhere where the Creator said "My name is 'the Famed One'"?

Simple question; please, a simple answer.

I might add that the "Renowned One" or "Famed One", doesn't identify anybody. If i said the Famed One is coming to town, it could be the President of the US, or it could be Queen Elizabeth, or Elvis. The term is ambiguous, and the point of the question was to show whether Scripture ever refers to YHWH by that title, or commands its use in the same way that it commands the use of "YHWH".

Blessings,

---

Greetings Chuck,

I pray you and your family are well. My apologies for my late response, but having five people ask you lengthy questions all at once can be time consuming. (smile)

The simple answer is there is no COMMAND in the Hebrew Tanakh for a person call Elohim any title, just as there is no command pronounce Yod-Hey-Waw-Hey with potentially incorrect/inaccurate vowels. There is also no comamd in the Hebrew Tanakh, which forbids calling Elohim by a title which is based in the Hebrew language. Just as there is no command to transliterate, just as there is no command to translate, there is no command put together a canon of text called Tanakh, etc. As I mentioned, I don't agree with your accessment in that area towards how the Miqra (Hebrew Tanakh) is interpreted, and I believe it is because we don't read from the same texts. This is my eyes equates to us not really speaking the same language on this matter. That is the simple answer you asked for which I had actually stated once before, the rest is below. If you want you can ignore it, but it explains it better.

Based on the logic you seem to suggest, callinig Elohim "the merciful one" is incorrect if it doesn't appear in the Tanakh in that exact format. Your arguement would make sense in places where, Yod-Hey-Waw-Hey originally showed up and was replaced with the title "the merciful one," but otherwise if this was never done your arguement makes no sense. So you further seem to suggest that in the Tanakh Elohim said, "Here are a list of titles call me these and nothing else." Your logic seems to be based on the following 1) someone taking scriptures where Yod-Hey-Waw-Hey shows up and placing some alternate spelling, word, or pronunciation there or 2) people using names of possible pagen origin as a title for Elohim. As I mentioned before I don't do either, and I PERSONALLY consider placing a incorrect/inaccurate pronunciation in place of Yod-Hey-Waw-Hey to be on the same level as number 1.

For a Jew,as I mentioned before, the Hebrew Torah commands us not to make false information about Elohim. In the Teimani Torah Tajj, Shemoth 20:6 it states, "Lo tiso' ath shem YHWH Alohakho lashow' ki lo yinaqqah YHWH ath ashar yiwo shmo lashow.'". Translated this means, You will not lift up/raise up/bear/ Name/Renown of YHWH your Elohim to falsehood/false or incorrect nedarim. Because YHWH does not forgive whom will lift up/raise up/bear His Name to falsehood/false or incorrect nedarim." You can take that and interpret that anyway you want it, but as a Jew I am prohibited from spreading false information about any aspect of Him. Because the Yemenite Torah Tajjim are clear that Shemoth 20:6 is clear, and the Aramaic Tarjum of Onkelos also indicates this (La teme bishma daYHWH lemagana are la yezake YHWH yath deyeme bishmeh leshiqra).

I also never once claimed that Elohim made the statement, "My name is 'the Famed One?" This is vastly different than the statement I made, yet I sense that you are going want to keep argueing that it is and that is fine with me. There is no command which states that it is okay for a Jew to call out an incorrect pronunciation of Yod-Hey-Waw-Hey either, which a replacement (no matter how innocent the incorrect information is). Besides, your reall issue here seems to be over whether Yahweh, Yahuweh, Yahuwah, Yahwi, Yihweh, Yahwah, etc. is used by someone then they are doing things okay. Yet, you seem to be pushing your personal preference for Yahweh. Which is your peragotive, and there is nothing wrong with that.

Besides I don't "use" HaShem in place of Yod-Hey-Waw-Hey as I pointed out, because as I stated several times before HaShem is a title no different than HaQadosh, HaEl, Elohim, Eluwwim, Adanni, etc. I have not USED HaShem in the same way or in place of Yod-Hey-Waw-Hey in any place where Yod-Hey-Waw-Hey already was in place. To claim that I have used HaShem in that way would have to also be the same for Elohim and Eluwwim, because I have used both of those just as often to describe Elohim in a non-scriptural discussion i.e. when not quoting the Tanakh. When quoting the Tanakh I used Yod-Hey-Waw-Hey or YHWH.

As I mentioned before IF the Sacred Name Movement has a hard time with people knowing who they worship then that is a Sacred Name problem. I have yet to meet anyone who knew I was a Jew and didn't know who I worship and what that consists of. The tzitzith and the kofia (kippa) I wear are clear indicators. The fact that I read Hebrew Tanakh's and talk about the ratzon (will) of Elohim is also clear. The character that I am called to exibit and the lifestyle I am called to live are clear indicators of WHOM I serve (Avodah HaLev). If they want to know what His characteritics are, I tell them that. If they want to know of the various THEORIES of how Yod-Hey-Waw-Hey, I also discuss ALL of them with anyone who desires that information. Anyone who doesn't know who Elohim is can easily be shown by way of a Torah Tajj it is quite clear. Once again this is not a problem I have experienced in any country I have ever been in. Saying that a title like HaShem is ambigious is just like saying that Elohim, HaEl, and Eloah is ambigious. Shin - Mem is Hebrew just like Aleph - Lamed, and is not some foreign term.

The problem here is that the answer I gave are simple, the lack of a working of Hebrew language and history of the language is what makes it that some people won't understand it. The other issue is I sense that some of this constant debate on the issue is because you and others don't like the answer I gave. You don't have to agree with it. You have your own theologies and dogma's, which I don't share, and vice versa at least one person has agreed on this difference.

As a side note, I won't be able to respond to anything until after Shabboth and I still owe a few responses to ANewman37.

Shabboth Shalom umvorakh!

------------------
Eloah immakhem,

Shimson bar-Tzadoq

quote:

---

Originally posted by chuckbaldwin:
You wrote: "Personally, I am sick of your arrogant, witchcraft-based banterings with Shimson or anyone else ..."

I won't dignify your accusations of arrogance & witchcraft with a reply, as personal attacks don't edify anyone.

---

There was no personal attack there, Chuck, for I had simply shared some observations. As you might agree, it would be arrogant of me to essentially ignore what Shimson and/or similar others might share from their personal and/or common knowledge and experience concerning The Name of The One who created us, blessed is He, and to then accuse them of wrong-doing for not speaking or writing His Name either at some time or in any particular manner I might happen to believe, insist upon or even demand they should.

As to the matter of "witchcraft": In the absence of any specific evidence related to you along that line, I apologize to you for making reference to that while addressing another matter. As you might know, there are many people who actually do believe certain "magic words" and/or names must be spoken in order to be "saved", but I should not have presumed to "lump" you together with such folks ... and for doing that, I seek your forgiveness.

quote:

---

Originally posted by leejosepho:
As to the matter of "witchcraft": In the absence of any specific evidence related to you along that line, I apologize to you for making reference to that while addressing another matter. As you might know, there are many people who actually do believe certain "magic words" and/or names must be spoken in order to be "saved", but I should not have presumed to "lump" you together with such folks ... and for doing that, I seek your forgiveness.

---

Thank you for the apology, which is accepted with forgivness. I can assure you that i don't hold to any "magic power" in using the Name af YHWH. Nor do i push a particular pronunciation, which is why i mostly just use the letters "Y-H-W-H" in writing. Of course, in conversation (and reading Scripture), i have to pronounce it some way, and i do the best i can according to my limited understanding.

And a note to Shimson,

From what you've written, I think you might disagree with this: If you said you had "to-MAY-toes" for lunch, and i said i had "to-MAH-toes", are we talking about different things? Is either of us giving "false information"? I don't think so. But i guess we just think differently about pronunciation.

A thought just occurred to me. In ancient times in Israel, when everyone knew how to pronounce "YHWH", the fact is that NOBODY, or at best only ONE person in all of Israel would have pronounced it correctly. The proof is in an electronic voice-print, which would be different for every person, even if they were "apparently" pronouncing it the same way. So the only question is: How different would it have to be before you would consider it to be "giving false information"? Something to ponder.

YHWH bless,

quote:

---

Chuck wrote:
And a note to Shimson,

From what you've written, I think you might disagree with this: If you said you had "to-MAY-toes" for lunch, and i said i had "to-MAH-toes", are we talking about different things? Is either of us giving "false information"? I don't think so. But i guess we just think differently about pronunciation.

A thought just occurred to me. In ancient times in Israel, when everyone knew how to pronounce "YHWH", the fact is that NOBODY, or at best only ONE person in all of Israel would have pronounced it correctly. The proof is in an electronic voice-print, which would be different for every person, even if they were "apparently" pronouncing it the same way. So the only question is: How different would it have to be before you would consider it to be "giving false information"? Something to ponder.

---

Greetings Chuck,

Shavua tov, and I pray your Shabboth was well. In terms of your first question, though spelling something "to-may-toes" or "to-mah-toes" is one thing, saying "to-mee-te" vs. "ti-muh-tah" vs. the first two is something different. Then it is also like adding that in old English it was called a "to-mah." (an example) Like I mentioned before the issue, for a Jew, is more complicated than a few vowels. On a personal level treating the pronunciation of fruit in this way presents no problem for me.

Treating the Name of The One Who created the universe this way is something that I PERSONALLY would not treat as lightly as I would grocery store produce, but that is me. As I mentioned before, as a Jew, I have a responsiblity to present all the theories if there is not 100% evidence (i.e. flawless evidence) on the issue. If another person is not held to that kind of responsibility there is nothing wrong with that. Once again the major component for a Jew is to stress the character of Elohim, which is something that there is enough information to stress. When the situation changes on the unknowns then everything changes at that point. Until then I will wait for Mashi'ahh to shine the light in the darkness on those issues.

On your second term, as a Benei Yisrael I personally don't believe that the various Kohanim and Levites who were around at the time when Elohim shined more directly in Israel treated the The Name of Elohim lightly like a telephone issue. That was the entire purpose of Kohanim and Levites to keep the people anchored in correct understanding of Elohim. This was also the purose of the Melekh of Israel, to keep justice and truth of Elohim as a focus for not only Israel, but also for Israel to shine as a light of Torah to the world. Besides at that time Elohim interacted directly with many prophets and many of the people so there was a completely different standard of interaction at that time.

Based on what Jewish history and Samaritan sources say about that period of divine favor, people were extremely fervant about trying to get things like that correct, and Elohim gave them the abilities to be of one voice on issues. Also, these same soureces say that when those times were in place, Elohim kept the people anchored (Ruahh HaQodesh) because they walked more in His Torah. If the telephone thing had been in affect whole scale at that time, I don't believe that the written Torah would have made it through the passages of time.

Of course when things changed to a less spiritually connected walk with Elohim, the telephone kind of thing began which leaves everyone where we are now. This is why the death of Shimon Ha-Tzadiq and the loss of that type of Kavod to Elohim changed, and ended up being a perfect time for Yeshua to come as the Mashi'ahh ben-Yoseph that Judaism said (says) would come and suffer for the sake of purifying the genration in order for the choice to walk before Elohim to have the potential to be restored.

I am not concerned about it as much because I believe that Yeshua (being Mashi'ahh) will return as Mashi'ahh ben-Dawith to make clear ALL the the matters that are not known. I am patient on that, and that is something that almost every Jew prays for in our Siddurim. That is the FULL restoration of the character and presence of Elohim to humanity in spirit and truth.

------------------
Eloah immakhem,

Shimson bar-Tzadoq

quote:

---

Originally posted by Shimson bar-Tzadoq:

I am not concerned about it as much because I believe that Yeshua (being Mashi'ahh) will return as Mashi'ahh ben-Dawith to make clear ALL the the matters that are not known. I am patient on that, and that is something that almost every Jew prays for in our Siddurim. That is the FULL restoration of the character and presence of Elohim to humanity in spirit and truth.

---

Since it's better to part on an agreeable note, I will wholeheartedly agree with your statment above (except i don't know what a "Siddurim' is ). That is also what i'm praying and waiting for.

YHWH bless,

quote:

---

Originally posted by chuckbaldwin:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Shimson bar-Tzadoq:

I am not concerned about it as much because I believe that Yeshua (being Mashi'ahh) will return as Mashi'ahh ben-Dawith to make clear ALL the the matters that are not known. I am patient on that, and that is something that almost every Jew prays for in our Siddurim. That is the FULL restoration of the character and presence of Elohim to humanity in spirit and truth.

---

[/QUOTE]

Shalom Chuck,

a siddur is a prayer book. Siddurim is the plural of siddur. Prayer books specifically for annual holidays are called machzor/machzorim, although prayer books that have both weekly sabbath and annual festival (passover, pentecost, tabernacles) prayers are also called siddurim.

Shavuah Tov (Good Week),

Thank you for your response to my previous commentary. I hope you don't mind if I continue our discourse. I realize I will likely not answer every comment you made, nor will I remember all the previous comments you have offered in this thread, so I hope you will understand that if I am inadvertently asking you to repeat any answers you have previously given, such is not my intent.

Actually, before I answer the response you gave me, I would like to address some of the answers you have given to others. You wrote (to Chuck on 02/23/2005):

quote:

---

I know in the non-Jewish world, that keeps the Sabbath there are debates about "how" to keep the Sabbath. That doesn't exist in my community as a Jew. We are Shomer Shabboth like our ancestors were. That whole "what is okay and what is not okay" to do on the Sabbath thing is only a western thing for people who are pretty much new to it.

---

I reply: With all due respect, I know this isn't true simply because of the differences taught and practiced by the Jewish sect known as Karaites. As I understand the history of things, mainstream Judaism decreed that all Jews should eat hot meals on the Sabbath so as to show the Karaites how much they "need" the Oral Law, since the Written Law does not sanction heating food on Shabbat. The Karaites do not eat warm food on the Sabbath, whereas mainstream Judaism does. Thus, while you may not experience any internal debates over the proper way of observing the Sabbath, this has not always been the case within Judaism, and it is still a point of contention between various sects, so it is not "only a western thing."

Here is a URL that you can access if you wish more information about this ancient schism: http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0301/cholent.asp

Within any denomination, there is usually no discord with regard to the various applications of Scripture. For example, we have attended Seventh-Day Adventist groups in many different cities, and they all have no problem with warming up food on the Sabbath. They also drive to their place of worship on the Sabbath.

We know another group of believers known as Soldados de la Cruz that does not warm up their food on the Sabbath, nor do they drive that day. That's just the way things normally are within established groups, or at least that has been my experience. Some groups attract "free spirits," where different aspects of the various applications of Torah are frequently discussed and even debated. Some groups allow it; others do not. Since many folks are actually looking for men to lead them, they pretty much do whatever the leadership does or teaches without asking too many questions. I have found that questioning a group's teachings can have some very negative ramifications. Many leaders do not appreciate it when their flock asks too many questions or is critical of them in any way. This method of control is their way of "maintaining unity," but it also protects traditions that may have no foundation in Scripture.

You also wrote:

quote:

---

I don't agree that TRYING to call Elohim something that has a good chance of not being correct is okay. We will have to agree to disagree on this, but the Hebrew text makes no such claim it is okay for me as a Jew to spread potentially false info. The Hebrew text doesn't say "Mispronounce my Name any way you like, I don't mind." Maybe the English text does, but I can't vouch for those. The rules of Shemoth are different in the non-Jewish world on this matter.

---

I reply: What does "not okay" mean to you? Does it mean the Almighty will punish those who try to reverently call upon Him, but don't quite get it right?

Regarding the Hebrew text vs. the English text, my personal feeling is that you may be attempting to subtly (or maybe not so subtly) dismiss the English texts available to us. If this is what you are doing, then I respectfully disagree. Since you seem to understand the English language fairly well, perhaps you would be so kind as to point out the correct translation of such verses as Isaiah 52:6, Psalms 79:6, Jeremiah 10:25, Psalms 5:10-11, Psalms 91:14, Malachi 3:16, Jeremiah 23:26-27 .... explaining how the English translation misses the intrinsic meaning of the Hebrew. I could list other verses, of course, but these are some that come to mind when folks tell me things like we shouldn't call upon the Almighty by His name. Maybe our English translations aren't truly faithful to the original Hebrew ... or maybe they do a pretty good job of conveying the Author's intent after all.

If people like Chuck and me are not "on the same page" as you are, as you mentioned to Chuck, it is not because we aren't trying. We are apparently, in your estimation, victims of poor translations ... unless, of course, the English translations available to us are better than what you are leading us to believe. Please don't get me wrong, I appreciate your encouraging everyone to learn Hebrew. I will not deny that learning to read and speak the original language is superior to studying the translation; that is an obvious truth. Nevertheless, the message you seem to be conveying is not one that I read about in any text of Scripture, whether it be the Tanakh [i.e., "Old Testament"] or the Brit Chadashah [i.e., "New Testament"]. The Apostle Shaul certainly wrote to Greek-speaking congregations, such as those in Corinth. There is no evidence that he wrote his letters to the Corinthians in Hebrew, nor is there any evidence that he wrote anything akin to "Unless you study the Hebrew text, we are not on the 'same page.'" There seems to be much "to do" about the wide difference in culture and language that exists between Hebrew and English, as well as how Hebrew is "pictorially-based." Certainly, this creates hurdles for the translators, and sometimes I know there really isn't a good way of expressing a certain thought in another language, so I understand the difficulties this posed for the Hebrew scholars, not only those who translated the English versions available to us today, but also the Greek Septuagint.

Nevertheless, they did it, and to the best of my knowledge there was no clamor that those who used the Greek text weren't "on the same page" as those who used the Hebrew. There is no question that the Septuagint was in common use during Yeshua's day, yet He never adjured His followers to learn the Hebrew or else risk "missing out" on the intrinsic meanings of any of YHWH's Word. Indeed, Judaism had the written Word in ancient Hebrew, but this did not prevent them from turning away from it, just as anyone can do, regardless of whether he reads the Word in Hebrew, Greek or English.

Again, to make this perfectly clear: I believe it is wonderful to learn Hebrew, and I do agree that it can help bring deeper meaning to YHWH's Word. But to write out answers using entire sentences in Hebrew because you don't believe there is any other way to properly convey the intrinsic Hebrew meaning ... this is bordering on the overly-eccentric IMO. I guess I share Chuck's sentiments that we come here to communicate. To do that, we should strive to express ourselves in a language that can be understood by all, or at least by the person we are communicating with. I do believe you work at communicating, and you are very good at responding to the various inquiries directed your way ... so I'm not trying to say you don't communicate, for you certainly do. It's just that some folks here are trying to learn and they cannot help it they never learned Hebrew. My idea of accommodating such folks does not involve writing out entire sentences in Hebrew for them to try and digest. Now if you would like to offer the "best translation" you can come up with to assist them, along with a disclaimer that your "best translation" still leaves out the nuances of the Hebrew expressions, I think that would go a long way towards helping those who, like Chuck and me, do not know Hebrew. Anyway, that's just me.

You also wrote:

quote:

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All Jews pronounce haleluYoh when Tehillim are sung in Hebrew because it is known without a Shadow of a doubt how Yod (Qametz) - Hey is pronounced. In the more ancient forms of Hebrew the Qametz is an "o" sound. So it is pronounced more like haleluYoh. Now in terms of Yahweh it is interesting to note that in this form (3rd Masc. Singluar, Hiphil) the vowel under the Yod is a Pathahh. The Pathahh and the Qametz don't have the same sound. That being said, the short form and Yod-Hey in Yod-Hey-Waw-Hey don't have the same sound. Besides not all scholars call "Yod-Hey" a "short form." Some simply call it th poetic form.

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I reply: First of all, my son has attended what he describes as an orthodox Messianic Jewish synagogue, and the Jews there pronounce "HalleluYAH," not "HaleluYoh." Maybe the Jews in Dallas have a different dialect than those in New York?

Secondly, I disagree with your bold claim that "it is known without a Shadow of a doubt how Yod (Qametz) - Hey is pronounced." Regardless of how superior you believe the "ancient form" you promote is, the fact is, that form was certainly not recognized by the Hebrew scholars who translated the Septuagint, which was done around the year 282 BCE. All one has to do is turn to such verses as Psalms 115:18, where the expression "HalleluYah" appears in the Greek text. It is plainly transliterated Alleluyah, as any Greek expert will agree. It is written in Greek as Allhlouia. It does not end with a "yoh" sound!!

Since this is the way the pronunciation of "YAH" was understood in the 3rd century BCE, and since Yeshua issued no corrections when He came along, I am not concerned about the assertions you make about a "more ancient" form. I believe "Yah" is just fine.

This is all for now. In my next posting I will answer the response that you sent to me.