quote:

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Originally posted by ChrisDixon:
Shalom Leejosepho,

I hope I did not cause any offence in the way I wrote the lastpost i was a little exasperated when I wrote it but it was not intended to be directed at you in any way.

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There is no problem whatsoever between us, Chris. Be at peace!

quote:

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I have attempted twice now just in this posting to express the fear I have concerning this matter. All I know it has to do with the great commission Yahushua gave his disciples before His ascension and continues through unto us. I maybe wrong I don't know.

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Do not stop doing what you are doing, just "never mind" the sectarian (divisive) debate.

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Yes I agree with our Jewish brothers and sisters about the need to keep Yahweh's name Holy, but at the expense of bringing glory and honour to His name I'm not so sure.

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Some folks might take "keep it holy" a bit too far, but even that is necessary in contrast with others who make little of no effort at all while still others of us try to keep this matter "properly balanced" somewhere here in-between.

quote:

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As far as I know it is probably the last time I comment on this topic because I don't think it is going anywhere.

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On that, we also agree! Nevertheless, it took what it took to get to here ... and sooner or later, all of this will likely and necessarily come up once again.

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May Yahweh bless and keep you.

Chris

PS. Would that blessing I gave you have the same effect if I substuted Yahweh's name with a title ...

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Nope. But that does not make this one say any less:

May you ever be held and blessed by The Almighty Sovereign, blessed is He, who bears HaShem.

I understand your feeling that this discussion isn't going anywhere. There are times in a discussion when it seems pretty evident that all the arguments have been presented, and if, by that time, no ones' minds have been changed, there isn't usually a whole lot left to discuss. The stand I take on this issue, although I'm sure it comes across as being rather dogmatic, should not be regarded as anything personal against those with whom I disagree. I have friends and family whom I love very much, and I certainly do not base that love on whether or not they only refer to the Almighty by His name. Moreover, anyone who knows me, knows that I condemn no one for believing as they do on any topic. All I am trying to do is stand up for the honor of YHWH, who alone is worthy of all honor, worship, praise and majesty.

Sometimes people confuse my desire to honor Him as being "divisive." Maybe they're right! If I choose to draw a "dividing line" between honoring Him and not honoring Him, I will put YHWH on one side of the line and HASHEM on the other side, so I guess, in that regard, I am divisive. And if you and I are the only ones standing on the "YHWH" side, we can stand there with the steadfast assurance that we have the full support of both Scripture and the historical record.

Some people have expressed (not necessarily in this forum) that I am "hung up on the Name." Others have said the same thing regarding my stand on the weekly Sabbath. Some have said the same thing regarding my stand on the Torah. And, of course, some have said the same thing about my stand on YHWH's Word. You may have heard similar words from folks who would prefer that you cease from expressing your view on a certain topic. The fact is, I am "hung up on YHWH and His Son Yeshua the Messiah." However, I wouldn't personally call that a "hangup"; this is a term that someone else might use to describe the relationship I have with our Heavenly Father and His Son.

This particular topic, as with the discussion regarding the name/title "God," is controversial and divisive, but it is a bit more complicated, mainly due to the fact that "HASHEM," unlike "God," is not in and of itself an unclean word. It can certainly be honorably used within a sentence in which YHWH's name is used, such as "Baruch ha-shem YHWH."

May YHWH bless you.

I will now respond to your posting, even though it doesn't appear likely, at this point, anything will be resolved, nor will any minds be changed. I am mainly responding in hopes that maybe something I write will help clear up at least a portion of our misunderstanding/disagreement. And nothing I write is intended to question your character or your love for the Almighty and His Son.

You wrote:

quote:

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You may very well say that the first time ever you heard/read the Hebrew word "HaShem" confused you, but after learning its meaning the confusion should have been cleared.

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I reply: Yes, but I have found that most people don't really have the same level of curiosity that I have, which means most people will be content in their confusion. I believe each of us should do his or her best to present our faith in as clear and concise a manner as possible, without the initial confusion. Remember who the author of confusion is?

Moreover, I guess I am still somewhat confused over this choice of terms ... a choice that simply means "the name." "The name" of WHO? That is a natural response when hearing someone referred to as "The name." It's just plain all-around confusion, so I guess the confusion really hasn't been "cleared." Even though one eventually learns that this mysterious "the name" is a reference to the Creator, it does nothing to bring anyone to that closer relationship that He wants to have with His children.

You wrote:

quote:

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If I spoke only Hebrew and heard you say "Mighty One" I could also feel that this was some foreign name, identifying someone other than Creator that we are suppose to worship. I believe all I would have to do is ask for clarification and then leave it be, I would not insist on trying to strip your language from you, or pretend to have superior knowledge of your language than you do.

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I reply: If you spoke only Hebrew, why would you be listening to someone who only speaks English? And if you did listen to such a person, how would you understand, when he mentioned the term "Mighty One," that he was using it as a name, especially if you didn't understand anything else he was saying?

Besides, even if you understood some English, you would not have heard me use "Mighty One" as a name, for you would have heard something like "OUR Mighty One," which would have clearly distinguished it as a title. Yes, I would do that for you, just to make certain you would know that I wasn't using the term as a name.

Would you do the same for me? For others? Or is your "tradition" more important to you?

Finally, please point me to anything I have written that might indicate I claim a "superior knowledge" of Hebrew. Indeed, I have claimed just the opposite, which is precisely why I have relied on the experts. And do you believe I am trying to "strip" your language from you? What ever gave you such an impression (if this is what you are trying to convey)??

You wrote:

quote:

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Should we also erase the part of Scripture that refers to our Creator’s Name with the Hebrew HaShem?

Devarim 28:58 leyira et-HASHEM hanichbad vehanora hazeh – to fear the respected and awesome name.

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I reply: No, we should not "erase" the part of Scripture that refers to our Creator's name with the Hebrew HaShem, which I would think by now should be rather obvious to you, since I have already called your attention to the fact that I have previously written "Baruch ha-shem YHWH."

I notice, however, that you chose to "erase" the last portion of Devarim 28:58 ... the portion that actually mentions the name YHWH. Since that verse uses "ha-shem" in the same context as His actual name, why cut it off at that point? Let's just go with the complete reading, shall we?

If you will not take heed to do all the words of this law which are written in this book, to reverence this glorious and awesome name, YHWH your Elohim ....

As quoted in its proper context, the words "ha-shem YHWH" are simply translated "the name YHWH." Clearly, the author of Scripture never uses "Hashem" as a name (except for the man in I Chr. 11:34) or in place of a name. It is simply used to mean "the name." In the case of Devarim (Deut.) 28:58, it is used in the clear context of "the name YHWH."

You continue:

quote:

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Besides, I have never used the word HaShem when quoting Scripture, in fact I don’t believe I have ever used “HaShem” in this list until recently in reply to posts specifically concerning this. Even so, if I were to, I would only be referring in Hebrew to The Name (HaShem) of our Creator, just as you say you are referring to Him with the English words Mighty One. If I choose to write with the word HaShem when referring to “The Name” at least I am referring to His actual Name instead of possible calling Him by another.

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I reply: If you only use "ha-shem" when referring to the name (ha-shem) of our Creator, then that sounds fine to me, so long as you do not use it as a name, which as I have shown, is a common practice within the ranks of Judaism.

Also, I do not share your concern about possibly "calling Him by another (name)." I believe it is universally known and understood that the first syllable is pronounced "Yah." The fact that so many Hebrew names contain the form "Yahu" is a demonstration of this understanding. The final syllable of that name, while obviously open for discussion, hardly seems like anything that would offend the Almighty if it isn't sounded out "just right." As I have repeatedly shared in this thread, I believe our loving Heavenly Father is much more understanding than you seem willing to give Him credit for.

You wrote:

quote:

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As I have previously said in another post, my usage of Hebrew is not up for debate, it is WHO I am, and I will not be forced into putting a concocted name upon our Creator nor will I attempt to take It out of Its holy context and thereby profaning HaShem/The Name. I will not attempt to apply a name that I have no way of knowing it is the correct one just to satisfy you and others here.

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I reply: What ever gave you the impression that anyone is trying to "force" you into calling upon our Creator with the name He gave to Himself? As Shimson has so frequently alluded to ... and I agree ... no one is forcing you to do anything. You are free to do as you choose. All I'm doing is expressing disagreement with this Jewish practice and belief.

As for taking His name "out of context" (whatever that means) and profaning it, would you say that the author of the Lachish Letters profaned His name?

Finally, regarding your comment that you will not attempt to apply a name that you have no way of knowing is correct just to satisfy me and others, please understand that I am not issuing a request that others use the Creator's name whenever possible. I only began this thread when I noticed the name YHWH being frequently replaced here in this forum ... replaced by and with the name/term "Hashem." I believe this practice brings dishonor upon YHWH's great name.

The argument against my claim seems to be, "But I'm not using 'HaShem' as a name, it's a title. Besides, I've been very careful to not replace His name as found anywhere in Scripture."

In response, I have shown how "HaShem" has indeed been used as a name. Regardless of how careful one is to preserve the Tetragrammaton's placement within Scriptural texts, you are obviously not willing to do so outside of those texts, and therein lies the dishonor, in my opinion. You are concerned about mispronouncing it or otherwise writing it out in some manner that may result in His judging you of "bearing false witness" or whatever other offense this may constitute.

Of course, if everyone down through history had believed this way, no one today would have so much as a clue as to how the Tetragrammaton is pronounced. I do not believe this is the will of the Father, and I do not believe He has left us "clueless."

You wrote:

quote:

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You may continue to condemn Observant Jews for not following after your teachings of our language – even so, midda keneged midda.

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I reply: I believe accusing anyone of "condemning" others is a very serious charge, not to be taken lightly. Please direct me to any words I have written wherein I condemn anyone.

Not knowing Hebrew, I looked up the words "midda keneged midda" (since I know others like Chuck and myself who don't know Hebrew read these things), and I see that it means "measure for measure." I guess you feel I should be condemned for expressing disagreement with a Jewish tradition that has no foundation in Scripture.

In response to my providing the quote from a Jewish website wherein they admit that they use "HASHEM" instead of the name, you wrote:

quote:

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This is true, it is common practice to refer to the “The Name” (HaShem) without pronouncing It or writing it for two reasons, 1) We do not know Its pronounciation until Mashiach comes and restores this knowledge to us, 2) Even if we knew It we would not take it out of Its holy context by saying It or writing it in a casual setting or setting where it could be desecrated.

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I reply: I am glad that you at least admit to this custom of replacing the Creator's name. That is at least a step in the right direction here.

As for "not knowing its pronunciation," I consider this rationale to be very lame. For one thing, even the author of the article in the Encyclopædia Judaica mentioned that the pronunciation hasn't been lost. I believe the scholarly world is in agreement that, even if we may not agree on the precise pronunciation, we come reasonably close. Apparently, "reasonably close" is not good enough, in your estimation.

Honestly, Rivkah, you give me no reasons for ever wanting to get to know you on a personal level. One of the very first things new acquaintances try to do is to learn each other's names. I have already shared how touched I am by my Spanish-speaking friend who cannot seem to pronounce my name correctly. I am touched because I know the effort she puts into it, and I love the expression on her face, which seems to ask, "Did I get it right this time?" She knows she doesn't have to get it "just right" to be my friend, but she tries anyway, and that should give you some sort of an idea as to the level of friend I consider her to be.

On the other hand, based upon what I have read from you, I would be very concerned about establishing a relationship. I'm afraid our friendship would fizzle the moment I mispronounced your name, and since, once again, learning each other's names would be one of the very first things we would work on, it doesn't look like our friendship would even "get off the ground," so to speak. And that is too bad, for we should strive to be friends, and we should strive to be understanding of each other's flaws, just as our Heavenly Father understands and forgives.

As I previously mentioned in a response to Shimson, I believe YHWH is a loving Father, not some far-off, distantly-removed, rigid, intolerant being, devoid of concern or sympathy for His children. If I am doing my best to please Him, including calling upon Him and referring to Him by name, I do not believe He will offer punishment for not getting it "quite right."

I guess I would ask you some of the same questions I have asked Shimson in this regard, such as what you believe the punishment will be for those who call upon Him, yet don't pronounce His name quite right. Also, do you believe the adversary wants us to know and call upon the Creator's name?

Okay, moving along, I had written:

You may choose to rephrase things all you want, but the end result is still the same: YHWH's great name is suppressed, and this is what is taught.

To which you replied:

quote:

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I'm not rephrasing anything, it is your lack of understanding of Hebrew that causes you to think this. And the Name of El-him is NOT be suppressed, that is again a misunderstanding on your part. HaShem/The Name of El-him is being kept holy and from profanation by Observant Jews, as we are instructed to do by Torah (Vayikra 22:32).

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I reply: I don't believe you understood what I meant by "rephrasing," so please allow me to try again: Mainstream Judaism teaches that, regardless of whether or not anyone knows how to pronounce the Name, it should not be pronounced because it is "too holy." You and Shimson, however, seem to be teaching that it would be okay to speak that name if we could only know for sure its precise phonetic resonance. Thus, regardless of whichever logic is presented from the two clusters of Judaism, the end result is the same: Our Creator's name is suppressed. This is what I meant, so I'm sorry I didn't make it clearer for you.

I'm starting to think the "your lack of understanding Hebrew" argument is simply a big copout. All I have done is provide quotations from other Jews (in English) wherein they admit that they use HASHEM "instead of," i.e., as a substitute, for the Creator's name. This is what I would call "name suppression." To respond with the now-familiar "your lack of understanding Hebrew" is (to me) simply an empty way of countering my comment.

Again, when we use a word or a name in place of another, the word being replaced is simultaneously being "suppressed."

Regarding the command in Leviticus 22:32 to not profane His name, I do not see a prohibition in that verse from speaking His name. Furthermore, in my Chumash Jewish Torah and commentary, five paragraphs are devoted to commentary on Lev. 22:32. Not once does it mention that either speaking or mispronouncing His name constitutes "profanation." Since I certainly do not see any verbiage in Lev. 22:32 stating that reverently speaking His name is tantamount to profaning it, and since even the Jewish commentators seem to agree, I am thus left to regard your view as a misinterpretation of that verse. This has nothing to do with my knowing or not knowing Hebrew, as I presume the Jewish commentators did know Hebrew.

Speaking of the Chumash I just noticed that it freely substitutes HASHEM in place of the Tetragrammaton. Maybe the one I own is different from what others may have? All I know is, the one I have is The Stone Edition, edited by Rabbi Nosson Scherman and Rabbi Meir Zlotowitz, published by Mesorah Publications, Ltd., 8th ed., 1997, and it appears that in each instance of where the Tetragrammaton appears in the Hebrew text, they render it "Hashem" in English.

I know you mention not using the term Hashem when quoting Scripture. I am very curious as to how you and Shimson feel about your fellow Jews who freely used it to replace the Tetragrammaton when translating Scripture.

May YHWH bless you,

Originally posted by Acheson:
Hi, Rivkah:
I will now respond to your posting, even though it doesn't appear likely, at this point, anything will be resolved, nor will any minds be changed. I am mainly responding in hopes that maybe something I write will help clear up at least a portion of our misunderstanding/disagreement. And nothing I write is intended to question your character or your love for the Almighty and His Son.

BS"D
Ok Larry, thank you.

You wrote:

quote:
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You may very well say that the first time ever you heard/read the Hebrew word "HaShem" confused you, but after learning its meaning the confusion should have been cleared.
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I reply: Yes, but I have found that most people don't really have the same level of curiosity that I have, which means most people will be content in their confusion. I believe each of us should do his or her best to present our faith in as clear and concise a manner as possible, without the initial confusion. Remember who the author of confusion is?

I so far have not found anyone in this list shy about requesting explanation concerning specific Hebrew words nor content to remain confused. If one doesn't have the drive to seek the truth concerning what is written by others then they are not following the most excellent role model given in Acts 17:11

"These were more noble than those in Tehssalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and search the Scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

Moreover, I guess I am still somewhat confused over this choice of terms ... a choice that simply means "the name." "The name" of WHO?

Of course the Name of El-him, there is no other Name above His. There is only one Name that an observant Jew would be referring to in Hebrew.

That is a natural response when hearing someone referred to as "The name." It's just plain all-around confusion, so I guess the confusion really hasn't been "cleared." Even though one eventually learns that this mysterious "the name" is a reference to the Creator, it does nothing to bring anyone to that closer relationship that He wants to have with His children.

Why would our Hebrew "HaShem" be any more mysterious than your English "Mighty One" or any of the other names some here used are once explained??

When an Observant Jew refers to "HaShem" there is no confusion in Who we are referring to, Baruch Hu. You also know Who we are referring to but seem to be insisting that we use what you preceive as the correct pronunciation, or is it that it doesn't really matter, just any pronunciation will do as long as we put a name upon our Creator, is this correct?

You wrote:

quote:
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If I spoke only Hebrew and heard you say "Mighty One" I could also feel that this was some foreign name, identifying someone other than Creator that we are suppose to worship. I believe all I would have to do is ask for clarification and then leave it be, I would not insist on trying to strip your language from you, or pretend to have superior knowledge of your language than you do.
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I reply: If you spoke only Hebrew, why would you be listening to someone who only speaks English? And if you did listen to such a person, how would you understand, when he mentioned the term "Mighty One," that he was using it as a name, especially if you didn't understand anything else he was saying?

As in seeking to learn English as it seems you are seeking to learn some Hebrew.

Besides, even if you understood some English, you would not have heard me use "Mighty One" as a name, for you would have heard something like "OUR Mighty One," which would have clearly distinguished it as a title. Yes, I would do that for you, just to make certain you would know that I wasn't using the term as a name.

Thank you but I cannot say to you "our HaShem" as that does not make sense in translation - Our The Name ? What I can "write" is HaShem Y-H-V-H.

Would you do the same for me? For others? Or is your "tradition" more important to you?

This is not tradition, this is speaking the Hebrew tongue and adhering to Torah to not profane the Name of El-him...that is where you are not understanding.

And please show me where in my posts that I have used the Hebrew HaShem, except in this thread? I only done so to make a point that there is great misunderstanding here concerning the Hebrew HaShem.

Finally, please point me to anything I have written that might indicate I claim a "superior knowledge" of Hebrew. Indeed, I have claimed just the opposite, which is precisely why I have relied on the experts. And do you believe I am trying to "strip" your language from you? What ever gave you such an impression (if this is what you are trying to convey)??

You may not realize it but the words you have written is an attack on our heritage given by El-him.

Do you not consider us (Observant Jews) wrong for not using your idea of pronunciation of the Name (HaShem)?

Is it not a fact that if I would use your pronunciation (or is it any pronunciation?) then I would be more acceptible in your eyes?

What makes your idea of the pronunciation of The Name superior?

What makes your concept of the meaning of the Hebrew HaShem superior to that of one who speaks the language?

You wrote:

quote:
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Should we also erase the part of Scripture that refers to our Creator’s Name with the Hebrew HaShem?
Devarim 28:58 leyira et-HASHEM hanichbad vehanora hazeh – to fear the respected and awesome name.

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I reply: No, we should not "erase" the part of Scripture that refers to our Creator's name with the Hebrew HaShem, which I would think by now should be rather obvious to you, since I have already called your attention to the fact that I have previously written "Baruch ha-shem YHWH."

So putting a dash between the ha and shem makes a difference? Or are you wanting me to write "Baruch HaShem Y-H-V-H"? I do this only sparingly because there is absolutely no "holy" reason to over use (write the letters of) the Name of El-him in this type of format which can be desecrated in some way, therefore Obseravnt Jews may choose to write just "HaShem" knowing that we understand Who we are referring to, just as we know Who you are referring to when you write "Mighty One" or "Creator," etc.

I notice, however, that you chose to "erase" the last portion of Devarim 28:58 ... the portion that actually mentions the name YHWH. Since that verse uses "ha-shem" in the same context as His actual name, why cut it off at that point? Let's just go with the complete reading, shall we?

That was not done intentionally, as you can see with many of my posts when I quote Scritpure I readily write the letters of HaShem (The Name).

If you will not take heed to do all the words of this law which are written in this book, to reverence this glorious and awesome name, YHWH your Elohim ....

As quoted in its proper context, the words "ha-shem YHWH" are simply translated "the name YHWH." Clearly, the author of Scripture never uses "Hashem" as a name (except for the man in I Chr. 11:34) or in place of a name. It is simply used to mean "the name." In the case of Devarim (Deut.) 28:58, it is used in the clear context of "the name YHWH."

I wasn't saying any different with the quote. And we also do not use HaShem in place of the Name but only as a Hebrew transliterated reference to The Name. In Hebrew the Name is always left intact.

You continue:

quote:
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Besides, I have never used the word HaShem when quoting Scripture, in fact I don’t believe I have ever used “HaShem” in this list until recently in reply to posts specifically concerning this. Even so, if I were to, I would only be referring in Hebrew to The Name (HaShem) of our Creator, just as you say you are referring to Him with the English words Mighty One. If I choose to write with the word HaShem when referring to “The Name” at least I am referring to His actual Name instead of possible calling Him by another.
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I reply: If you only use "ha-shem" when referring to the name (ha-shem) of our Creator, then that sounds fine to me, so long as you do not use it as a name, which as I have shown, is a common practice within the ranks of Judaism.

You have not shown this, you only think this because you truly do not understand the Hebrew usage of the word.

We say, "Baruch HaShem" - Blessed be The Name" ALWAYS referring to the Name of Y-H-V-H of which we do not use in a casual setting that would profane His Holy Name, and we do not have the proper pronunciation at this time in order to actually 'speak' His Name.

Also, I do not share your concern about possibly "calling Him by another (name)."

Yes, this is well understood and is the reason for all this misunderstanding of our language, our seeking to not profane His Name.

I believe it is universally known and understood that the first syllable is pronounced "Yah." The fact that so many Hebrew names contain the form "Yahu" is a demonstration of this understanding. The final syllable of that name, while obviously open for discussion, hardly seems like anything that would offend the Almighty if it isn't sounded out "just right." As I have repeatedly shared in this thread, I believe our loving Heavenly Father is much more understanding than you seem willing to give Him credit for.

Again I ask, what makes your belief superior? Why can't you accept that your belief, in the end, just may not be correct and another's may be, or vice versa? Why condemn another's belief when you readily know that over a period of growth you probably have changed quite a bit from where you were at when you started the path of walking in the Word of El-him? Why is it acceptible for someone to put a name upon our Creator, no matter if it is the correct one just as long there is one? To me this is a form of idolatry, and I will not partake of it.

You wrote:

quote:
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As I have previously said in another post, my usage of Hebrew is not up for debate, it is WHO I am, and I will not be forced into putting a concocted name upon our Creator nor will I attempt to take It out of Its holy context and thereby profaning HaShem/The Name. I will not attempt to apply a name that I have no way of knowing it is the correct one just to satisfy you and others here.
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I reply: What ever gave you the impression that anyone is trying to "force" you into calling upon our Creator with the name He gave to Himself? As Shimson has so frequently alluded to ... and I agree ... no one is forcing you to do anything. You are free to do as you choose. All I'm doing is expressing disagreement with this Jewish practice and belief.

You. And I am expressing disagreement with your concept of our usage of our own language.

As for taking His name "out of context" (whatever that means) and profaning it, would you say that the author of the Lachish Letters profaned His name?

How is the Hebrew letters of the Name comparable to seeking to pronunciate it?

Finally, regarding your comment that you will not attempt to apply a name that you have no way of knowing is correct just to satisfy me and others, please understand that I am not issuing a request that others use the Creator's name whenever possible. I only began this thread when I noticed the name YHWH being frequently replaced here in this forum ... replaced by and with the name/term "Hashem." I believe this practice brings dishonor upon YHWH's great name. The argument against my claim seems to be, "But I'm not using 'HaShem' as a name, it's a title. Besides, I've been very careful to not replace His name as found anywhere in Scripture."

I have not seen anyone "replace" The Name, I have only seen some use The Name (HaShem) in reference to It.

In response, I have shown how "HaShem" has indeed been used as a name.

I haven't seen you do this yet.

Regardless of how careful one is to preserve the Tetragrammaton's placement within Scriptural texts, you are obviously not willing to do so outside of those texts, and therein lies the dishonor, in my opinion. You are concerned about mispronouncing it or otherwise writing it out in some manner that may result in His judging you of "bearing false witness" or whatever other offense this may constitute.

Yes, that is only your opinion, and my opinion is that placement of a name upon our Creator that is not His is a huge dishonor. And, you must have me confused with someone else, as I have not refrained from writing the Hebrew letters of The Name in my posts.

Of course, if everyone down through history had believed this way, no one today would have so much as a clue as to how the Tetragrammaton is pronounced. I do not believe this is the will of the Father, and I do not believe He has left us "clueless.",

I notice that you do a lot of "I believe" instead of "I know" while being so sure of yourself.

You wrote:

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You may continue to condemn Observant Jews for not following after your teachings of our language – even so, midda keneged midda.
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I reply: I believe accusing anyone of "condemning" others is a very serious charge, not to be taken lightly. Please direct me to any words I have written wherein I condemn anyone.

To believe something without being 100% sure of one's belief while instructing that those who do not follow your belief is dishonoring our Creator is a condemnation and an unjust one. All the while admit to not knowing Hebrew (see below), oy.

Not knowing Hebrew, I looked up the words "midda keneged midda" (since I know others like Chuck and myself who don't know Hebrew read these things), and I see that it means "measure for measure." I guess you feel I should be condemned for expressing disagreement with a Jewish tradition that has no foundation in Scripture.

Incorrect again. It is not that I feel you should be condemned, but that I know our Creator gives one his due, measure for measure, that which he has judged upon another. Therefore I was saying, you in your belief judge me and all observant Jews in our seeking only to honor our Creator as He has instructed, as a dishonoring to Him, therefore you just may find you will be met with the exact judgement you have dealt towards us.

In response to my providing the quote from a Jewish website wherein they admit that they use "HASHEM" instead of the name, you wrote:

quote:
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This is true, it is common practice to refer to the “The Name” (HaShem) without pronouncing It or writing it for two reasons, 1) We do not know Its pronounciation until Mashiach comes and restores this knowledge to us, 2) Even if we knew It we would not take it out of Its holy context by saying It or writing it in a casual setting or setting where it could be desecrated.
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I reply: I am glad that you at least admit to this custom of replacing the Creator's name. That is at least a step in the right direction here.

I did not admit to any replacement, I clarified the reason Observant Jews will not pronounce The Name. What should we say, Blessed be Yod-Heh-Vav-Heh?? It's not translatable.

As for "not knowing its pronunciation," I consider this rationale to be very lame. For one thing, even the author of the article in the Encyclopædia Judaica mentioned that the pronunciation hasn't been lost. I believe the scholarly world is in agreement that, even if we may not agree on the precise pronunciation, we come reasonably close. Apparently, "reasonably close" is not good enough, in your estimation.

No, it really is not good enough for The Creator of all. I truly wished you understood this.

Honestly, Rivkah, you give me no reasons for ever wanting to get to know you on a personal level. One of the very first things new acquaintances try to do is to learn each other's names. I have already shared how touched I am by my Spanish-speaking friend who cannot seem to pronounce my name correctly. I am touched because I know the effort she puts into it, and I love the expression on her face, which seems to ask, "Did I get it right this time?" She knows she doesn't have to get it "just right" to be my friend, but she tries anyway, and that should give you some sort of an idea as to the level of friend I consider her to be.

The name of men is not comparable. Our Creator is not a man, nor is His ways our ways. The holiness of El-him seems to be a very hard concept to grasp.

Speaking of the Chumash I just noticed that it freely substitutes HASHEM in place of the Tetragrammaton.Maybe the one I own is different from what others may have? All I know is, the one I have is The Stone Edition, edited by Rabbi Nosson Scherman and Rabbi Meir Zlotowitz, published by Mesorah Publications, Ltd., 8th ed., 1997, and it appears that in each instance of where the Tetragrammaton appears in the Hebrew text, they render it "Hashem" in English.

There is no replacement, the Hebrew letters are right there in the Hebrew Text where they are suppose to be. The Name is not translatable therefore the ENGLISH translation has "HaShem" IN REFERENCE to The Name, not a replacement at all.

Rivkah

I may respond to your entire posting later, but for now I will only respond to your last comment.

You wrote:

quote:

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There is no replacement, the Hebrew letters are right there in the Hebrew Text where they are suppose to be. The Name is not translatable therefore the ENGLISH translation has "HaShem" IN REFERENCE to The Name, not a replacement at all.

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I reply: Okay, let me get this straight. When the folks who translated the Chumash translated it from Hebrew to English and they came to the Creator's name (YHWH), they rendered it HASHEM, and you are stating that "there is no replacement."

Thus, would you not also agree that the King James Version translators were completely justified in rendering the Tetragrammaton "the LORD" in English, ... and "there was no replacement"?

Also, you state that the Name is "not translatable." Would you likewise state that it is "untransliteratable"?

May YHWH bless,

Larry

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Originally posted by Acheson:
Hi, Rivkah:
I may respond to your entire posting later, but for now I will only respond to your last comment.

BS"D
Hi Larry. Ok, but you may shorten it if you wish so that it doesn't get too long.

You wrote:

quote:
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There is no replacement, the Hebrew letters are right there in the Hebrew Text where they are suppose to be. The Name is not translatable therefore the ENGLISH translation has "HaShem" IN REFERENCE to The Name, not a replacement at all.
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I reply: Okay, let me get this straight. When the folks who translated the Chumash translated it from Hebrew to English and they came to the Creator's name (YHWH), they rendered it HASHEM, and you are stating that "there is no replacement."

The Hebrew on the right hand side page in the Chumash has the Name of our Creator written, as it is in all our Hebrew Texts and Scrolls. The ENLGISH translation on the left hand side has the Hebrew HaShem (The Name) written in reference to the Name that is in the Hebrew Text, there is no replacement. The English translation cannot have The Name translated when The Name is not translatable.

Thus, would you not also agree that the King James Version translators were completely justified in rendering the Tetragrammaton "the LORD" in English, ... and "there was no replacement"?

"Lord" is a title to English speakers. HaShem is not a title, it is Hebrew words for The Name.

Also, you state that the Name is "not translatable." Would you likewise state that it is "untransliteratable"?

It is only transliteratable as Y-H-V-H.

Rivkah

quote:

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Originally posted by Acheson:
All I am trying to do is stand up for the honor of YHWH, who alone is worthy of all honor, worship, praise and majesty.

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You will never be able to fully do that until you stop talking about yourself and making comparisons between people, Larry.

Tough words to hear, maybe, but true ones ...

Again, I will only respond to one item from your latest posting:

You wrote:

quote:

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"Lord" is a title to English speakers. HaShem is not a title, it is Hebrew words for The Name.

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I reply: Your understanding is certainly different from that expressed by Shimson in his postings:

quote:

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Posted by Shimson bar Tzadoq on 02-20-2005 at 12:01 PM
HaShem is a title no different than Elohim, Eluwwim, Adonai, Adani, etc. No Jew who knows their Hebrew would ever act like HaShem is how Yod-Hey-Waw-Hey is pronounced. The issue here goes into what I mentioned about not bearing false witness about the Name of Eluwwim.

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quote:

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Posted by Shimson bar Tzadoq on 02-21-2005 at 05:14 PM
Besides as I mentioned before the Torah uses lots of titles for Him. There is no prohibition in calling Him by a title and HaShem is a title. I would never make a copy of a Torah Scroll or Text and put HaShem in it though.

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Do you at least partly understand the confusion created by Judaism in their supposed attempt to reverence the name YHWH? One gives this reason; another gives that reason, they contradict each other in various ways, and the end result is the same: The name is suppressed. In this instance, we have one Jew (Shimson bar Tzadoq) plainly stating that HaShem is a title, whereas another Jew (you) plainly states that it is not a title, presumably to justify its serving as a substitution for YHWH in The Chumash translation.

As Chris astutely noted earlier, "... their views aids Satan and his plans rather than bringing honour or glory to Yahweh."

I had previously asked you a couple of questions, such as whether or not you believe the adversary wants us to know and call upon the Creator's name. For some reason, those questions have, to this point, been ignored. Might there be a reason for ignoring those questions?

May YHWH bless you,

Originally posted by Acheson:
Hi, Rivkah:
Again, I will only respond to one item from your latest posting:

You wrote:

quote:
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"Lord" is a title to English speakers. HaShem is not a title, it is Hebrew words for The Name.
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I reply: Your understanding is certainly different from that expressed by Shimson in his postings:

quote:
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Posted by Shimson bar Tzadoq on 02-20-2005 at 12:01 PM
HaShem is a title no different than Elohim, Eluwwim, Adonai, Adani, etc. No Jew who knows their Hebrew would ever act like HaShem is how Yod-Hey-Waw-Hey is pronounced. The issue here goes into what I mentioned about not bearing false witness about the Name of Eluwwim.
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quote:
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Posted by Shimson bar Tzadoq on 02-21-2005 at 05:14 PM
Besides as I mentioned before the Torah uses lots of titles for Him. There is no prohibition in calling Him by a title and HaShem is a title. I would never make a copy of a Torah Scroll or Text and put HaShem in it though.
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BS"D
I don't agree. HaShem is not a title, it is Hebrew words "ha" (the) "shem" (name) and represents The Name of our Creator. It may be describes as a term but I wouldn't refer to it as a title.

Do you at least partly understand the confusion created by Judaism in their supposed attempt to reverence the name YHWH?

No, but I do see your confusion that is due to you not understanding Hebrew. Once the Hebrew is explained the confusion should have cleared.

One gives this reason; another gives that reason, they contradict each other in various ways, and the end result is the same: The name is suppressed. In this instance, we have one Jew (Shimson bar Tzadoq) plainly stating that HaShem is a title, whereas another Jew (you) plainly states that it is not a title, presumably to justify its serving as a substitution for YHWH in The Chumash translation.

The Name is not being suppressed, it is stated clearly in all our Hebrew Texts as It was given. HaShem is only used in ENGLISH translations because The Name is not translatable.

As Chris astutely noted earlier, "... their views aids Satan and his plans rather than bringing honour or glory to Yahweh."

I had previously asked you a couple of questions, such as whether or not you believe the adversary wants us to know and call upon the Creator's name. For some reason, those questions have, to this point, been ignored. Might there be a reason for ignoring those questions?

I was tired after trying to reply to a very long post and just cut it short.

We are commanded to keep HaShem (The Name) holy and not profane it, of which Observant Jews strive to do. Therefore the adversary is the one who seeks to cause us not to do this.

Rivkah

From what I read it seams to me to stand for Hidden and Suppressed.

No name no power and no salvation!

There are only some things that Yahweh's name will open or unlock(for the want of a better term). Satan certainly wants the name of Yahweh hidden and suppressed because he does not want that power released.

Yahweh's name has no power in the mouths of the wicked. We know the penalty if we use it wrongly.

But in the mouths of the righteous. Satan, his demons and the wicked tremble.

Does Yahweh want His name profaned? No, certainly not!

Does Yahweh want His name suppressed and hidden? No, certainly not!

Does Satan want Yahweh's name used, glorified and exalted? No, most definitly not!

Choose.....

Originally posted by ChrisDixon:
Just one question I thought the word Holy means 'set-apart'?

From what I read it seams to me to stand for Hidden and Suppressed.

BS"D
That's exactly right, set-apart, set apart from what? From the mundane, casualness.

How can it be hidden or suppressed when it is clearly written in all our Hebrew Texts and Scrolls? You found it didn't you? So can anyone else who looks at the Hebrew.

El-him states that His Name is holy and that we are not to profane it (Vayikra 22:32). We show we recognize Its holiness by the manner and context in which we treat It and use It. If we use It in casualness and not keeping It within the context of holiness then we are not separating It from the mundane, and thus in danger of profaning It.

"Neither shall you profane My holy Name; but I will be hallowed among B'nei Yisrael; I am Y-H-V-H who hallows you" (Vayikra 22:32)

Rivkah

So you think that calling on His name for deliverence, healing, salvation or just to witness to someone to who He is, ie. Glorifying and exalting His name is using it in the mundane and causing His name to be profaned. His name being written on scroll or Hebrew text is not going to help them. This was the context of my last post and why I think His name should be used especially in whitness in which we are in the Messiah called to do. Yahweh want's His Name/Character known before all men you can't do that without using it. There is no excuse for not doing so.

quote:

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Originally posted by ChrisDixon:
Yahweh wants His Name/Character known before all men you can't do that without using [His Name]. There is no excuse for not doing so.

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If by "no excuse" you are talking about some kind of pride or arrogance or about not being ashamed and so on, then yes, Chris, that is correct. However, there surely *are* some times when there are good *reasons* for at least some of us not "leading with the chin", so to speak, or "spilling the beans" too quickly or too early ... such as when my very own daughter, while in desperation and clearly asking for help, nevertheless said she did not want to hear anything at all about "Jesus", and I said, "No problem!"

Some time later, of course, we got all of that straight.

For now, just let this one go, Chris.

Shalom.

Now that I have a little more time on my hands, I will now respond to additional comments that you made early this morning.

You wrote the following in response to my comment that most people don't have the same level of curiosity that I do, which means most people will be content in their confusion:

quote:

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I so far have not found anyone in this list shy about requesting explanation concerning specific Hebrew words nor content to remain confused. If one doesn't have the drive to seek the truth concerning what is written by others then they are not following the most excellent role model given in Acts 17:11

"These were more noble than those in Tehssalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and search the Scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

Moreover, I guess I am still somewhat confused over this choice of terms ... a choice that simply means "the name." "The name" of WHO?
Of course the Name of El-him, there is no other Name above His. There is only one Name that an observant Jew would be referring to in Hebrew.

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I reply: Once again, we have another misunderstanding. I first heard "HaShem" used in reference to the Creator long before there was an "internet," much less a forum such as this, so I was referring to the average person "on the street," so to speak, not "anyone in this list." Those are the people we should be trying to reach, Rivkah, not the folks in this forum (which is not to say that we shouldn't also be clear with folks here in this forum). My main concern, though, has to do with the average folks out there who, upon hearing some Jew say something like, "May HaShem bless you," haven't the foggiest idea who or what was being referred to.

If I were to tell someone, "May HaShem bless you," and he was actually curious enough to ask what "HaShem" meant, I would be very embarrassed, because I would have to explain that it means "the name," which means I would have to in turn explain why I said, "May 'the name' bless you."

Since Scripture makes it clear that YHWH wants His name to be proclaimed, and not suppressed, I could not do such a thing, which in turn means I have no intention of ever saying, "May the name bless you."

This is why I continue to maintain that I believe each of us should do his or her best to present our faith in as clear and concise a manner as possible, without the initial confusion. Remember who the author of confusion is?

You continue:

quote:

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Why would our Hebrew "HaShem" be any more mysterious than your English "Mighty One" or any of the other names some here used are once explained??

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I reply: The difference is, no one is speaking Hebrew and throwing in any "Mighty One" terms in English. In other words, no one is saying anything like, "The Almighty yimloch le'olam va'ed." It's the reverse ... those who speak in English throw in a borrowed Hebrew word because they believe it would be a disgrace to actually speak His name. There is a deliberate transliteration of the Hebrew term meaning "the Name," while suppressing the transliteration of the Tetragrammaton.

You continue:

quote:

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When an Observant Jew refers to "HaShem" there is no confusion in Who we are referring to, Baruch Hu. You also know Who we are referring to but seem to be insisting that we use what you preceive as the correct pronunciation, or is it that it doesn't really matter, just any pronunciation will do as long as we put a name upon our Creator, is this correct?

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I reply: As I have already shown, when anyone says something like, "May the Name bless you," there is confusion, and that is precisely what is offered by those who employ this term in place of YHWH. And those who you should be reaching out to are instead greeted with confusion.

As for the "just any pronunciation will do as long as we put a name on our Creator," I believe you knew better than make such a comment. That was very unfair and unkind of you, as you know I have in no way made or implied any such suggestion. It seems that not only do you impute motives of condemnation on me, but you also impute incorrect and even warped reasoning. If this is your approach, it is clear that we have no hope of reaching even a friendly disagreement.

To set the record straight, I believe we should all strive to honor YHWH by conducting our research with the best resources we can find. For example, I believe the author of the article at the following link did a very good job:

http://www.yahweh.org/publications/sny/sn09Chap.pdf

So no, not "just any pronunciation will do," Rivkah. While I agree with the conclusion reached by the author whose study can be accessed at the above link, I believe I should respect the conclusions of others, as I trust they are doing the best they can with the resources they have access to, as am I.

Some people, it seems, don't think we should even try.

I will respond to one additional comment from your posting, then I will close for the evening.

You continue:

quote:

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This is not tradition, this is speaking the Hebrew tongue and adhering to Torah to not profane the Name of El-him...that is where you are not understanding.

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I reply: First of all, I disagree with your claim that "this is not tradition," for that is precisely what it is. The true believers of Scripture had nothing whatsoever against speaking the name, and as I have pointed out previously, it was a heathen nation that first imposed this rule upon the Jews, but when Judah Maccabee and his men gained the victory, they repealed Antiochus' decree, which means they exclaimed, "Go ahead and mention His name!" I loathe that heathen decree as much as I loathe the anti-nomian stand that Antiochus Epiphanes stood for. And now, it seems that Judaism has gone "full circle," and is embracing a heathen decree.

As for the Torah command to not profane YHWH's name, as I have already pointed out, you simply interpret "speaking" his name, or even unintentionally mispronouncing it, as "profaning" His name. This understanding is simply a misinterpretation, one that even the commentators contributing to The Chumash didn't feel merited space in their volume. There is nothing anywhere in Torah specifying any sin for either speaking or mispronouncing YHWH's name.

As time allows, I may respond to additional portions of your postings later.

Note to Chris: Hang in there! Thank you for sharing your views, which I share. I appreciate your desire to stand up for the honor of YHWH.

May YHWH bless,

Larry

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