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Originally posted by John Cordaro:
Since trimming is a gray area ...

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Yes, it is at least certainly becoming one!

Originally posted by Hebraic Way:
But I still don't understand how you think every man is commanded to wear a beard. When you have time, would you mind sharing that one more time?

BS"D
The burden of proof actually should be yours to show that according to Torah the removal of the beard is allowed, since the natural characteristic of most men is hair growing on their face.

Shaving is against the norm, not the growing of a beard.

This is why throughout the Scritpures it is assumed that man has a beard, and it is a shameful event at its removal, and a command was given not to even mar it.

Rivkah

[This message has been edited by Rivkah (edited 04-10-2005).]

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"But I still don't understand how you think every man is commanded to wear a beard. When you have time, would you mind sharing that one more time? "

Yahweh did not have to command men to wear beards. That's like saying He has to command men to have chest hair or leg hair or two arms. He created us with beards and created women without beards. Then He gave a specific command to plain folk and priests NOT destroy the beard. He has also given us many examples of how baldness on the head or face caused by unnantural means was a shame.

In giving His instructions to the priests regarding shaving for the dead, He did so as to clearly teach the priests that shaving off the beard for a dead immediate relative was the only permissible reason to destroy the beard.

As Rivkah said, the burden of proof is on you to prove destroying the beard (most commonly via shaving) is acceptable for any reason including vanity or self prosperity (conforming to the business world to assure oneself of monetary gain).

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Originally posted by John Cordaro:
Yahweh did not have to command men to wear beards. That's like saying He has to command men to have chest hair or leg hair or two arms ...

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... fingernails, eyebrows, lashes and so on. A little trimming might occasionally be appropriate or even necessary, but complete removal is foolishness ...

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... including vanity or self prosperity (conforming to the business world to assure oneself of monetary gain) ...

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... and could even be harmful.

And now: What about women shaving their legs and/or armpits? There is certainly nothing unnatural about hair on a woman's body, and in fact, it is there by design and for good purpose ... and if a modestly-dressed woman has hair on her legs, who but her husband (who should easily accept that unless *he* is comparing her to worldly women) would even know?!

Originally posted by Hebraic Way:
Originally posted by Rivkah:

The burden of proof actually should be yours to show that according to Torah the removal of the beard is allowed, since the natural characteristic of most men is hair growing on their face.

***I still understand your view as 'out of context', due to the 'for the dead' issue having to do with rites associated with pagan mourning practices. I suppose we're at a 'agree to disagree' point.
SH

BS"D
In other words, you do not have Scriptural proof of your teahcing that removal of the beard is allowable according to Torah.

Rivkah

Originally posted by Hebraic Way:
Originally posted by Rivkah:

In other words, you do not have Scriptural proof of your teahcing that removal of the beard is allowable according to Torah.

***Hi Rivka, I understand written scripture means not to mar the corner of beards in relationship with those who support pagan rites surrounding mourning practices. From my perspective, I have scriptural proof. From your understanding I do not and that is why we disagree.
SH

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Originally posted by Hebraic Way:
Originally posted by Rivkah:
In other words, you do not have Scriptural proof of your teahcing that removal of the beard is allowable according to Torah.

***According to your understanding and not mine.
:-)
SH

BS"D
Ok Sandra, I think I got that this was your understanding from your first reply, and agreed that we disagree as I don't see any Scriptural support for your perspective.

A man must have a beard in the first place in order to not mar (shave) its corners.

Notice the mitzvah did not say one should not shave off (destroy/mar) their beard, rather It says, one should not shave off (destroy/mar) the corners of their beard - one would need to have a beard in order to be able to shave (destroy/mar) its corners.

Since the mitzvah states not to destroy even the corners [edges] of the beard, the edges are the brim of the beard, this shows that it is forbidden to remove by shaving any part of the beard.

There are only three cases in Scripture where removal of the beard is allowable and a mitzvah:

1) At the end of the nezirut period of the Nazir (Bamidibar 6:18)
2) At the end of the investiture of the Leviim (Bamidbar 8:7)
3) During the recovery of the Metzora (Vayikra 13:33)

During the story of Creation, the Torah stresses again and again that El-him created all the species each according to their respective species, i.e. there is to be no cross-breeding. The beard is a 'visible sign' which El-him has given man to distinguish him from the female species and should not be destroyed as was/is the custom of pagans.

Rivkah

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Originally posted by Rivkah:
A man must have a beard in the first place in order to not mar (shave) its corners.

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A man must have an ox in the first place in order not to muzzle it. Therefore the Torah requires all men (even carpenters & shopkeepers) to own an ox. Same logic as above.

quote:

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During the story of Creation, the Torah stresses again and again that El-him created all the species each according to their respective species, i.e. there is to be no cross-breeding. The beard is a 'visible sign' which El-him has given man to distinguish him from the female species and should not be destroyed as was/is the custom of pagans.

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Originally posted by chuckbaldwin:
Originally posted by Rivkah:
A man must have a beard in the first place in order to not mar (shave) its corners.

Deuteronomy 25:4 Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn.

A man must have an ox in the first place in order not to muzzle it. Therefore the Torah requires all men (even carpenters & shopkeepers) to own an ox. Same logic as above.

BS"D
Not sure what type of logic your coming from but I don't believe that male species of mankind was created to own an ox specifically, or as any type of natural extension. That mitzvah is for those that do own oxen. Whereas man was created to natually grow hair. Obviously your example is ridiculous.

During the story of Creation, the Torah stresses again and again that El-him created all the species each according to their respective species, i.e. there is to be no cross-breeding. The beard is a 'visible sign' which El-him has given man to distinguish him from the female species and should not be destroyed as was/is the custom of pagans.

Male & female are NOT 2 species;

I wasn't indicating they were, and this should have been obvious since it is not crossbreeding for male and female of any species to mate. I was referring to the Torah's instruction for men to look like men (and women like women) - destroying the beard removes this natual distinction.

Rivkah

Originally posted by Hebraic Way:
Originally posted by Rivkah:

Ok Sandra, I think I got that this was your understanding from your first reply, and agreed that we disagree as I don't see any Scriptural support for your perspective.

***Okay good, you had the last word.
:-)
SH

BS"D
I really was not seeking to have the last word, I was seeking an adult discussion of this subject to see how you derived your concept of this, but I guess I should seek elsewhere.

Rivkah

[This message has been edited by Rivkah (edited 04-12-2005).]

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