I was very surprised to see the answers you gave in your last post, as they really didn't adress my arguments respectively, but rather selectively. I will, at any rate, answer each of the additional statements you made in hopes of you seeing were I'm coming from in this discussion.

You wrote:

quote:

---

Originally posted by emjanzen:

Just because verse 28 has the phrase "for the dead" after the prohibition of cutting the flesh, doesn't mean that the prohibitions of verse 26, or 28 for that matter have anything to do with "for the dead".

***Of course I disagree. Pagan practices are prohibited:
Deuteronomy 14:1 Ye are the children of the LORD your God: ye shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness between your eyes for the dead.

---

I reply:I also agree that pagan practices are prohibited, many times in Scripture. What does that have to do with the point I made concerning "for the dead"? My point was that Lev. 19:28 is sandwiched in between verses 26-27 and 29. For us to say that the "for the dead" clause applies to verse 27 would mean we could also say the "for the dead" clause applies to verse 29 or even verse 26. If you would just read the verses and believe what they say, you would have only the practice of cutting of the flesh being "for the dead" as it plainly states, and possibly the practice of printing marks upon one's body.

Furthermore, Deut. 14:1 only compliments Lev. 19:28. It mentions (1) cutting of the flesh, and (2) baldness between the eyes. Nothing is stated here concerning rounding the corners of the head or marring the corners of the beard. We see from Deut. 14:1 that the practice of making baldness between the eyes was prohibited with the "for the dead" clause, and although this clause is not immediately attached to the prohibition of cuttings in the flesh, it is attached specifically to it in Lev. 19:28. This shows that both (1)cuttings in the flesh, and (2) making baldness between the eyes, were prohibitions in specific reference in doing them "for the dead".

You wrote:

quote:

---

Consider the next sentence after the final verse you quoted above. Is it only wrong to profane one's daughter by making her a harlot if you are doing it for the dead? Same as with that right above the head and beard verse; Is it only wrong to eat blood for the dead?

***No, the harlot defiling scripture is another prohibition given to priests.

---

I reply:That was my point. However, using your logic that the "for the dead clause reverts back to Lev. 19:27, I could equally say that this same clause moves forward to Lev. 19:29. However, this is not sound logic. Once again, the "for the dead" clause is only mentioned in direct relation to the cutting of the flesh in Lev. 19:28.

You wrote:

quote:

---

When a man shaves, he is shaving to remove hair from his face, thus destroying his beard. Men are not to destroy their beards (Lev. 19:27).

***No, that command is in direct relationship to doing so in conjunction with mourning as the pagans did...

---

I reply:Here you are just assuming your whole argument. Junia and I have showed you were there is no reason to take the "for the dead" clause of vs. 28 and tack it on to vs. 27 or 29 for that matter. For you to say that the command of Lev. 19:27 is one in direct relation to mourning is a mere assumption that has nothing to substantiate it. Yahweh did not attach mourning in the prohibition, nor did He attach "for the dead" in the prohibition. He simply stated the commandments, and we should obey them, instead of trying to work around them by saying it's only wrong if you do it "for the dead".

Consider even the "for the dead" clause of Lev. 19:28. Do you really believe it's only wrong to cut your flesh if you're doing it for the dead? Don't you think mutilation of the body for any reason is wrong? The point is that just because the commandment of cutting flesh IS specifically joined to "for the dead" doesn't mean we should go around cutting our flesh and proclaim "Hey, I'm not doing it for the dead, so it's okay!" Now apply this to Lev. 19:27 which doesn't even join the clause "for the dead" to rounding the corners of the head or marring the corners of the beard. Also look at Lev. 19:26 which also doesn't contain the clause. In these cases, the point would even be stronger than the one I made concerning Lev. 19:28. You couldn't even make the claim, "Hey, I'm not doing it for the dead!" because the passages don't even say you should not do them "for the dead".

Also,on an end note, what do you think "faces of men" means in Rev. 9:7-8?

Your friend,

Matthew Janzen

It would be nice if you didn't just pick and choose the statements of mine you desire to respond to. It's not a good way to discuss because it leaves the other party (myself in this case) hanging for answers. However, let me still address and comment on your last posting.

You wrote:

quote:

---

***The Prophets explain that those under YHWH's judgment who are following after other gods do cut their beard and hair when mourning. Ancient writer Leo Allatius said that the Greeks believed that evil spirits could lurk in a man's beard after departing from the dead. These types of superstitious rituals 'for mourning dead' is what YHWH did not want His covenant people partaking in:

---

I reply:I'll respond to your references to the prophets a bit later. Let me say that this Leo Allatius may have written what you say, but it wouldn't have a bearing on the truth in the matter, seeing that he is definitely not Scripture.

You wrote:

quote:

---

Here is a portion of what I already posted from another writer:
"The shaving of the head and beard (in part and sometimes in totality), and making marks and cuttings in their flesh were pagan customs and practices used in MOURNING FOR THEIR DEAD. Those pagan
customs and practices used in mourning for their dead are mentioned
by Isaiah and Jeremiah concerning the prophesied death and
destruction by YAHWEH pronounced upon the land of Moab for their
sins."

Isaiah 15 (2) He is gone up to Bajith, and to Dibon, the high
places, to weep [for their dead]: Moab shall howl over Nebo, and
over Medeba: on all their heads shall be baldness, and every beard
cut off. (3) In their streets they shall gird themselves with
sackcloth: on the tops of their houses, and in their streets, every
one shall howl, weeping abundantly.

Jeremiah 48 (37) For every head shall be bald, and every beard
clipped: upon all the hands shall be cuttings, and upon the loins
sackcloth. (38) There shall be lamentation [for their dead]
generally upon all the housetops of Moab, and in the streets
thereof: for I have broken Moab like a vessel wherein is no
pleasure, saith YAHWEH.

---

I reply:The two passages you give above are very good ones friend. They prove that indeed shaving the head and beard were done in the mourning of the heathens; this is clear, and I cannot argue against Scripture.

Let me again say, however, that this doesn't mean the prohibition in Lev. 19:27 is one with the "for the dead" clause attached to it. Yahweh was speaking to Israel in Lev. 19 and His command assumed that the men had beards, just as his command assumed the men had hair. You can't round the corners of your head if you don't have hair, and you can't mar the corners of your beard if you don't have a beard. Yahweh's command makes it sound as if it's a given that the men generally had hair and beards. There would be exceptional cases were some men would not have any hair growth, but only beard growth; or no beard growth, but only hair growth; or neither

Also remember my point concering cutting the flesh. We know the Bible clearly prohibits cutting the flesh "for the dead" (Lev. 19:28), but that doesn't mean we can go around cutting our flesh because we like to does it? Same as Shlomoh said concerning Deut. 22:5, which specifically speaks of the garment of a geber or warrior; this doesn't mean men can still dress feminine and women masculine because of the specifics. There are other examples as well. I would say the same would apply for tatoo's. We know marks were printed on peoples bodies "for the dead" but does that okay us to print marks on us as people do today by tatooing their bodies?

You then wrote:

quote:

---

Your complaint about my argument as I understand it is that while the cutting of the flesh in Lev 19:28 is clearly prohibited in relationship to the dead, that the preceding verse (27) mentioning rounding the corners of heads and maring the beards is not:

27 Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.

28 Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am YHWH.

But reconsider by taking careful note of 'hand cuttings' in Jeremiah 48:37 and how that is in the SAME numerical verse as baldness and beard clippings: "37 For every head shall be bald, and every beard clipped: upon all the hands shall be cuttings, and upon the loins sackcloth."

---

I reply:The same numerical verse doesn't even have to come into consideration; we're dealing with context. You have clearly shown from Isaiah 15:2 and Jer. 48:37 that shaving the beard and head was associated with mourning for the heathens, so your point in this case is proven. However, that does not convince me that Yahweh was only prohibiting shaving one's beard when it was done "for the dead", as I've said over and over again.

You then concluded:

quote:

---

I only bring this up, as you appear to be focusing on 'numbering' of scriptures to confirm context. While I know not of such a way to interpret scripture from ancient days, I am showing you that even your foreign method of interpreting scripture would not be supported in Jeremiah because the context is mourning and includes flesh cutting, along with hair and beard cutting. I have not only proof text from the Prophets, but also from the Torah and again, your supporting argument has to do with the numbering of scripture that was not instituted originally by the Jews. We disagree on this and I don't mind that you have your opinion that differs from mine as it is not an issue to divide over. You've actually helped me sharpen my position in this dialogue.

---

I reply: I use the numbers to make it easier to understand the context. Using what you're saying the context of Lev. 19 could just carry straight on into Lev 38 or something. But clearly, when the Bible was given chapters and verses it was for a reason. Granted, there are some places where they could have done a better job, but most of the time I've found that the job done was exceptional.

Mr. "Hebraic Way" I completely see your point on Isaiah and Jeremiah, but I disagree with you that this is the only reason for a man not to shave his beard.

Let me ask again a question you've failed to answer twice; what do you believe the faces of men are in Rev. 9:7-8?

Your friend,

Matthew Janzen

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hebraic Way:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by emjanzen:

Let me ask again a question you've failed to answer twice; what do you believe the faces of men are in Rev. 9:7-8?

***That they appeared to be men. That would include beards as well.
SH

---

Praise YAH! Finally an answer, & it should prove a point!

Yes emjanzen,

Indeed I do believe that we are on the same page. I do not however believe we are getting the point across here.

Hebraic Way,

You posted:

***The Prophets explain that those under YHWH's judgment who are following after other gods do cut their beard and hair when mourning. Ancient writer Leo Allatius said that the Greeks believed that evil spirits could lurk in a man's beard after departing from the dead. These types of superstitious rituals 'for mourning dead' is what YHWH did not want His covenant people partaking in:

***Here is a portion of what I already posted from another writer:
"The shaving of the head and beard (in part and sometimes in totality), and making marks and cuttings in their flesh were pagan customs and practices used in MOURNING FOR THEIR DEAD. Those pagan
customs and practices used in mourning for their dead are mentioned
by Isaiah and Jeremiah concerning the prophesied death and
destruction by YAHWEH pronounced upon the land of Moab for their
sins."

Isaiah 15 (2) He is gone up to Bajith, and to Dibon, the high
places, to weep [for their dead]: Moab shall howl over Nebo, and
over Medeba: on all their heads shall be baldness, and every beard
cut off. (3) In their streets they shall gird themselves with
sackcloth: on the tops of their houses, and in their streets, every
one shall howl, weeping abundantly.

Jeremiah 48 (37) For every head shall be bald, and every beard
clipped: upon all the hands shall be cuttings, and upon the loins
sackcloth. (38) There shall be lamentation [for their dead]
generally upon all the housetops of Moab, and in the streets
thereof: for I have broken Moab like a vessel wherein is no
pleasure, saith YAHWEH.

Junia:

Yes, these verses show that these particular pagans probably shaved there heads & beards as a sign of mourning. But I actually think these verses are simply here to show that YAH will bring them to greif. Not to really show what pagan mourning rites were.

Actually most pagan religions shaved the hair from their entire bodies ritually for their G-ds. Most let the hair & beards grow only in time s of mourning. Though the Egyptians did put on phony beards/ goatees as adornment at times.

Here again, of course, the cuttings & markings of the flesh have nothing to do with our subject of beards! And I don't know who the ancient writer Leo Allatius was, but neither do I care as he was not a writer of Scripture & so is irrelavant on this subject.

You posted:

***But reconsider by taking careful note of 'hand cuttings' in Jeremiah 48:37 and how that is in the SAME numerical verse as baldness and beard clippings: "37 For every head shall be bald, and every beard clipped: upon all the hands shall be cuttings, and upon the loins sackcloth." I only bring this up, as you appear to be focusing on 'numbering' of scriptures to confirm context. While I know not of such a way to interpret scripture from ancient days, I am showing you that even your foreign method of interpreting scripture would not be supported in Jeremiah because the context is mourning and includes flesh cutting, along with hair and beard cutting. I have not only proof text from the Prophets, but also from the Torah and again, your supporting argument has to do with the numbering of scripture that was not instituted originally by the Jews. We disagree on this and I don't mind that you have your opinion that differs from mine as it is not an issue to divide over. You've actually helped me sharpen my position in this dialogue.

Junia:

Don't believe that anyone is trying to make their arguments based upon numberings. We are just trying to keep you from taking one sentence out of context. I'm begining to get that old feeling that I'm speaking Japanese again though!

But anyway, I am , as always, here to learn!

Shabbat Shalom!

"My conclusion: Even though YAHWEH put hair on our face to help
protect it from the elements of nature, I find no scripture
prohibiting us from shaving other than for the purpose of MOURNING
FOR THE DEAD.
T.A.H"

There are two ways to look at this concept of not destroying the beard when mourning for the dead. The concept offered above implies that Yahweh was forbidding shaving off the beard when in mourning, but all other reasons for shaving are permissible. Lev 21:5 tells us the priests were not to defile themselves by shaving off their beards. If this is to be understood in conjunction with verses 1-4, then a priest may never shave off his beard for any reason except to mourn for an immediate family member. I believe this latter concept is what Yahweh intended us to understand.

Yahweh created men to have beards. It is as natural as having head hair, leg hair, chest hair, two arms, etc. To an Israelite, it would have been so unnatural to shave off his beard. It was utterly shameful to do so. Why? For two reasons; 1) they did not want to be humiliated by looking like women and 2) they did not want to be humiliated by looking like their previous captors, the Egyptians. So Yahweh had no need to tell them not to shave off their beards. He knew that was the furthest thing from their minds. What he did need to do, however, was to explain to them that there was one exception whereby their beard could be destroyed, that is, to mourn for an immediate family member.

The prohibition in Lev 19:27, which was for all Israelite men, does not allow for this exception. We can either assume the prohibition was stricter for the priests in that they could only defile themselves for a family member whereas all other Israelites could defile themselves for other relatives as well or we can assume the same rules that applied to priests applied to all Israelites. However, I don't think we can assume the rules against shaving were more strict for the common Israelite than the priests. This, of course, is assuming the phrase "for the dead" found in verse 28a is also applicable to verse 27. Is the phrase, "for the dead", applicable to verse 28b which forbids printing marks on the flesh? If so, why isn't that prohibition stated in Lev 21:5? If not, then why apply it to verse 27?

It seems clear to me that men of Yahweh are to accept the way He has created us and not try to alter it by shaving. We should accept His way of making a distinction between the sexes and not confuse the matter. We should avoid looking like the world and our harsh taskmasters, the Egyptians, through obeying Torah, wearing modest apparel, keeping Shabbat and other annual sabbaths, eating a Scriptural diet, and by not destroying our beards.

I used to wear a goatee type beard but since I have been reading these posts I have started growing a full one.

You wrote:
I'm understanding that scripture gives no prohibition to trimming a man's beard, as long as it was not in conjunction with pagan mourning rites.

Are you refering to the lenght of the full beard or the diferent styles of beard e.g. the goatee

Its not the first time I have tried to grow one but this time I will stick with it.
The reason I asked about the goatee was to do with the borders of the beard and wether that mattered.

Thanks for your reply, Yahweh bless you
Chris

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hebraic Way:
***I'm not sure goatee's were in fashion then ...

---

... and personally, I doubt "goat-ease" will *ever* be "in fashion" with Abba-Father!

I wasn't planning on having a long scraggly beard brother just a groomed "but long enough to pull beard" to make sure I keep the parents of the children in my care happy. Tahnks for you reply.