posted 12-09-2001 10:53 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by gary w b:
I believe that there is a good reason why someone with the beliefs that Hiltop display come to a true name or messianic site. It is obvious that you are searching for something, either to be told that you are wrong or maybe you are searching for the truth but are at war with yourself.I would suggest that you seek first the kingdom of Yahweh and search the scriptures with a pure and open heart praying in the Ruach Ha Chodesh for understanding and that you will not be decieved. you may go through many levels of understanding before you feel that you have found these truths but that is why we are left in this school-yard earth until the restoration of all things.
I wish you well and pray that you find truth.
All Love, in the name of Yahsuah Ha Machiah, Gary Beck

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And may I add, that as time gets closer to Yahushua's return, beliefs such as that of Hiltop will definitely proliferate. Therefore, it is imperative that all those who are given a "little strength" Rev. 3:8, must hold on tighter and tighter to that strength! We have not seen ANYTHING yet. We are simply now getting a little testing of our faith.

I am constantly reminded that YHWH has promised that the elect will NOT be deceived. Luke 21:36 tells us to "watch and pray" to be accounted worthy to escape the Great Tribulation that is to come upon the earth. Part of that watching and praying, I believe, includes being on the lookout for anything that will distraact us from our journey to life eternal.

We must pray for all the "Hiltops" of the world.

Riyah

posted 12-09-2001 11:00 AM            

Yah be with you. Blessed are you Riyah, you have been given a heart to seek the fruits of the spirit. For Yahs "covering/seal/banner" over us, is indeed love. As the bride testifies to such in the Song of Sol. (sos; smile).

Blessed are you Mesobaite, for you have been faithful in a little, and shall be given much.

To Blessed Riyah... in thy wisdom, you do well to show forth the mystery of iniquity, that we may be-ware... that satan and his demons do indeed show themselves to be an angel of light. As one studies scripture, there is a "spirit" language that Satan however does not speak, nor can he. For he is the prince of the carnal, the flesh, not of the spirit. There is a "word" of the flesh, and a "word" of the spirit. same word, but depending on it's "message" shows forth the "messanger". example;

"death/blood/sleep" are all synomonous in scripture. now "death" can have many perspectives, as can blood, and sleep. not until one sees "how" they are synomonous, may one truly understand the "message". "Angel" is also synomonous to "message".
You have a fleshly message, and a spiritual message. Those of the flesh, give the fleshly message, those of the spirit... the spirit.

As we know through Romans 1:19 & 20, it is the carnal/physical things manifested, that are telling us "about" the Spirit. For when we read "And their was war in heaven..." we would not know what "war" was, unless we had "war" here on the earth plane.

The IDMR "look" to see the "spirit" in all things manifested. The physical is our "window" into the understanding of our Maker. For nothing was made that wasn't made by His Word. (Or HIS Authority/Power) For Satan (Prince of "this" world) does mind the things of the flesh, and preaches things of the flesh, by which He "accuses" us to The Father with.

Not so in the Spirit. The spirit, does mind the things of the spirit. When we read in Amos; "I will send a great famine into the land,("we" are the "land"/earth) NOT a famine of bread and water but a famine of Hearing the True word of Yah."

However, we would not understand what famine was, except we had famine in existance. Now we know what a horrific thing this is. Their "bellies" swell up, their skin(flesh) gets open sores, (grevious sins)... and once one has starved long enough, one must "feed" them slowly, their bodies can hardly take nutrition. At first may even reject it.

The IDMR is "strictly" about "learning about Yah", and all HE has done/made/brought into existance and seeking the>
"deep things of Yah".
They are not about anyone else. They are not about telling another "how" to live, what to do, or "any" lordship over another whatsoever. Its all about YAH. And learning about Him... not us. And looking to HIM, and trusting HIM to guide our walk, not any other.

When I say; "run the scriptures", I do speak of showing forth the "spirit tongue" of the Scriptures. Showing through scripture what "words" represent. Example: "milk" means; "Carnal knowledge of the scriptures", "meat" represents "spirit" knowledge. (1rst. cor. 3)
As you say; "Knowledge with out love is dead." One is "subject" to "pride" when they know their scriptures real well... Especially if they put those scriptures on "themselves" and not on who they are about; Yahshua.

There is a "carnal law" and for EVERY "carnal law" there is a "spiritual discernment". or a "spirit law".
Example: Sabbath. In the physical law, one MUST "rest". They cannot work, buy, sell, or even light a fire in their Habitations. The ONLY Thing they can do is "hold a holy >>
CONVOCATION << unto Yah.

Now... in the spirit law... One sees that in order to "enter" into Yahs "rest" one cannot "work their way unto salvation, buy their way, sell thier way, they cannot even PURGE their way into Yahs rest". For Yah is in control of all things. He is the King of Kings, Lord of Lords, Authority of Authorities... When you "come in someones name" you come in their authority, or in their "word" and you speak what "they" said.

Yahshua says;

"come unto me all ye who are weary and heavy laidened. And I will give you REST unto your "SOUL". "Take my Yoke(one-ness) upon you and LEARN OF ME.
For I am "meek" and lowly in heart, and my burden is light." Now... RIGHT AFTER this, it says; at THAT time, Yahshua's diciples were "an hungred" on the SABBATH day and went into the field to eat and the pharasees say; your diciples to that which is UN-lawful on the Sabbath. Then read what Yahshua answers them, and keep in mind that Yahshua "in us" is a "priest" forever.

So Yahshua says; come to me, I will give you REST(sabbath) unto your souls. and "learn of me". (not of yourself, but of Him).

What is the FIRST thing we "learn of Him"? Well, that He is "meek" and "lowly" in heart.

heres the point. One cannot find, work, earn, obtain any "righteousness" whatsoever.
One can ONLY >> 'Ask Yah' to "re make them". to "grant them a new heart". One cannot "make themselves". And Satan the ruler of the flesh, lies and says "You are like gods knowing good and evil". Yeah... well, just to "know" good and evil, does NOT make you the controller of it. or the "maker" of it. or the "ruler" of it.

For Yah TRULY is the ONLY "RULER". And until one turns their heart, thoughts, troubles, over to YAH... And ASK the RULER/ Authority of ALL... to create in them that which they desire in order to be closer/one/ with HIM... As our witness David did. (For scripture says; "David was put here to be our witness". AND that we MUST return unto the "House of David".
David "asked" for a lying tongue to be kept far from him, He "Asked" for a pure heart to be created in Him. David KNEW who his "maker' was. Thus sayeth the El of "jacob and his "MAKER". (Jacobs maker) People have forgotten they HAVE a "maker".

And go about to, and teach others to ; "make themselves"... showing themselvs to "sit in the temple of G-d", yeah, even to BE God! Understand?

They will forever remain in their iniquity or their "separation" from Yah. Until they cry unto their MAKER and Ask HIM to "make them" according to His Word.

"Our work" is a "work" of faith in Yahs WILLINGNESS and His GOODNESS to do exactly what He says He will do; "I will write my laws upon their inward parts"
He also says these laws shall NOT be LIKE the laws that I gave them the day I brought them out of egypt. We have "carnal" laws, or "physical manifestations" to "show us" the spirit manifestation. Most have it backwards. They think the "spirit" explains the physical/carnal/flesh. But in truth it is the other way around. Thus no one may "judge" by the "flesh".

For if one keeps the physical sabbath, but still has it in their heart and mind, that they must "work" their way somehow, or they are the ones in control... they have not entered into Yahs "rest". And they remain in the "shadow" of righteousness, not in the light itself.

Taking the "Name" Yah in "vain". Is one who not realizing that "Name"means authority or Power... And they go about to establish their righteousness NOT depending on YAHS power/authority to bring things about, but their own power/force/strength/self dicipline... or what ever one wants to call it, that brings a thing about. Therefore, Yahs "power/authority/name" is taken "in vain". or "brought to nought". Because they haven't "died" yet, and come to realize that a 'dead' thing may only "speak"/pray, call up to Yah, as ables blood called up from the "earth". Our blood in our "earth" , must call up to Yah! "Cain" means; "possession". Able called up and cried; "Cain slayed me".
or "Possession slayed me".

May Yah bless you dear RiYah, may His face shine upon you, May He call you by name, and call you HIS. And may You call Him Your one and only. Your maker and creator, He who formeth Your Soul. And may He who forms your soul, cause you to bring forth abundantly. HalellYah, Praise Yah.

love,
d'

Dear Mesobaite,

I did not mean to neglect you... you ask me >

}. Do you believe in the 10 commandments? I hope you do. <<

Indeed I do. But Yah has revealed to me, that only by HIS hand, can they be written on my heart to obey them. And until I put my TRUST in HIm, and not in Me... they shall not come forth. For it is not "our" righteousness, it is YAHS righteousness. And ONLY Yah, can "perform" His righteousness or "word".

You say; >> They are very, very simple and we are to follow them to the letter...no doubt. <<

Oh, you have them all down do you? It's rare I hear this, praise Yah! for He has brought you further in to your making then many. But friend, be of sound mind. For it is not the flesh that keeps the law of Yah, it is not "us" that "doeth the works", But Yah performs the work of Yah. We ask, and HE "works the work" > IN Us.< so let us not fail to give credit where credit is due. For if anyone is "keeping anything", it is Yah in them that does it.

You say; >> The commandments are the foundation of all truth. They express to us who Yahweh is. They are called HIS testiment. If we do not follow them then we cannot build on truth because they are the foundation of truth. Without a foundation you cannot build a house...right? <<

Indeed, scripture says that the "law" is a "lantern". But what good is a lantern lest it has oil(spirit)? Remember the ten virgins? 5 had enough "oil" and 5 didn't. They all had the "lanterns".

You say; > Even moreso don't you think its insulting to HIM if we can't even get HIS name right. I think so and I also think its why the issue of HIS name was addressed in the 3rd commandment as apposed to the 8th or 10th for that matter. This is so simple. We try to complicate it by saying things like 'its only phonetics'. <<

I tell you true, I was here at this forum saying the same things to Spying 3 years ago. Spying by the way, now says "Yahshua". (smile)

But the truth is: Hebrew names have ALWAYS "meant" something. if one calls on the phonetic sound "Yahshua" but does not understand that they are "calling on YAHS SALVATION" (not their own salvation), then one only has phonetics. "name" means; "Power". When one prays in the "Name" of Yahshua, they are actually saying;
"By the POWER of YAHS Salvation, I pray".

But if they are not of this mind... they do not "have" the "name". People can hardly come to this understanding while using the name "jesus", because when you look up "jesus" in the dictionary, it says; "Founder of the christian faith".
It does not say; "Gods salvation". or God is salvation.

But when one looks up Yahshua in Hebrew it say; "Yah is salvation" or Yahs salvation. Yahshua is also called >>
"The Word."
So... When we prays in the "Name" or the Power of Yahshua, we pray also "according to His Word".
As David did!

David asked to be "made" or "created" according to HIS Word.

As far as "building the temple", or laying the foundation.
This too is the "work of Yah".
For David DESIRED to "build" the temple(which is symbolic to "us", or our bodies, in which Yah dwells)

But Yah told David NO. That "he" CANNOT build it.
but that His Son will. Everyone thinks this to be "solomon", but I tell you true, it is the "Son of David, ie; Yahshua ie; Yahs Word" that shall "build" our temple, or "us".

I LOVE the name Yahshua. I sing it, I praise it, I love it with my whole heart. I DEPEND on it,for my very life.
It was through Yahshua; "Yahs salvation". "According to His word"...that I have come to know the Father.

And I tell you true, The Father is Willing! If we would just turn to Him and TALK to Him, and ASK Him to "re make" us, according to His word... It shall come to pass. This is what "re-born" is all about. And I tell you true, lest we become like "little children", we shall in no way enter.
A little child is TOTALLY dependant on their parent. to feed them, clothe them, even wipe the waste away from their buts!

The "war" that we fight is the war of Faith.
Satan was created to be a worthy adversary unto Yah. do you think "we" are any match for him?

No, the war of the flesh, vs. soul, is Yahs War! "our" war is "who are we going to beleive"?
Satan "accused the angels to the father, and the angels that beleived Satan, followed satan. The angels that did not beleive Satan, (that the father was against them) but beleived Yah was "For them"... they stayed with the father.

Paul says we shall "judge angels". "Angels" are "messages".
Isn't it something how Yah has called us from the four corners of the earth... to the "great supper"... in such a way, that we only "see" words or "messages". No flesh. We cannot "see" eachothers flesh, or judge eachothers flesh, we may "only judge the message".

Names are meanings or "messages", and these meanings or messages have a "power".
Cain means; "possession". Possesssion has the power to "slay". Why do I know this? Because it is written,
"Cain slew me".

The "key of David", is knowing you have a "maker". And He will "make" you according to the desire of your heart, if one only turns to him and asks him, and trusts in His Goodness and Willingness to do so. And if one does this with their heart, though they have been taught another "phonetic" sound, but in their heart, has this, and gives this message, they have Yah. They are depending on the Goodness of Their maker, and He will not forsake them!

Sorry this is so long, I hope this was easily understood.
it's hard to tell sometimes. (smile)

but May Yah truly bless you, may He come into Your heart, and supp with you. May He work a work in you, and cause you to be in Awe of His Greatness.
For in that day;

Isaiah 17:7 At that day shall a man look to his Maker, and his eyes shall have respect to the Holy One of Israel.

I would like to invite anyone interested in these "deep" things of Yah and His Power and His control over to a forum >
http://www.tzaddikim.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?s=ebf896c45a4bb675e9c8c20d772327b8&forumid=1

TZADDIKIM DISCUSSION FORUMS - Lo Ammi Forum

I have a lot of writings over their discussing a lot of this.
I truly believe Yah has revealed these things. That the "seals" are truly being opened to "understand the book", and we are truly in the "sixth day" where Yah said; "Let us make man in our own image". And as a "1000 years is a day" we are at this "season" indeed. For it is the "time of the bride". and psalms, Isaiah, and Song of Solomon along with Daniel and Revelations are happening as we speak.

May Yah truly bless you friends.
Love,
d'

posted 12-09-2001 12:30 PM            

Once again my heart has been blessed with your letter of agape! In my opinion, there is much pointing of the finger, and not enough edifying. The embalance can sometimes becomes stifling, and outright discouraging! But then again, such is the duty of the Evil One, for it is not against flesh and blood that we war, but against spiritual wickedness in high places, which you have pointed out in your letter.

Thank you for the wonderful word study explaining their fleshly and spiritual meanings. I agree with your analogies. I plan to reread your message.

Not too long ago in my dispare of unkind SN persons, I stated to a friend who is a traditional Christian, that if it were not for my love towards YHWH (the love, of course, He has given to me) I would return to the fellowship of traditional Christianity. I had come to sheer exhaustion from puffed-up persons of "knowledge." But I realized that such was the work of the adversary, or the trying of my faith, for I realized that I could not betray YHWH.

After much suffering and overcoming from being knocked and slapped around by many who believe themselves to be righteous, I have come to believe that many who praise and love "J-sus Chr-t" in sincerity will be given mercy before those who articulate the name YHWH correctly, but have little or no love in their hearts.

You call me blessed, and I must say YOU too are blessed! YHWH always sends His children what they need. I believe He sends persons like yourself to help mend the broken-hearted. I quote I Cor. Chapter 13 often, because it puts knowledge and love in perspective.

I have taken quick peak at the Tzaddikim website you have suggested, and it seems very interesting. I plan to return. Thank you. How you find time to write such long spirit-filled posts to both sites can only be the power of YHWH!

May YHWH continue to bless us, keeping us strong in His Spirit, as we continually seek HIS TRUTH!

I praise YHWH for you and other kind brethren who write to this site.

Riyah

posted 12-09-2001 12:36 PM            

First I pray that you are still coming to this site after your post, either of your own freewill or that Eliyah is still leaving the path open for you to come, even though you have used the name Jesus on your post.

Hilltop...I have been coming here for awhile and I too call Yahshua (in my heart and to HIM in prayer...Jesus). I came to this site thru an invite from a dear brother who I trust to be lead by the Spirit of YAHWEH.
This is all new to me and I have no Hebrew or langistic (sorry bad at spelling too) background.

A short time ago I decide to leave Eliyah's site because I struggled with the fact that I could not use on the site the name of our MESSIAH that I love and have grown up to know HIM by. But, for some reason YAHWEH draws me back here.

Than, like today I see your post....and after reading, Mesobaite, david_ben_yacob, and Raphael M, response I know why I continue to come here.

It is a post like david_ben_yacob, that will bring other mature christians to Eliyah site to learn the truth.

Hilltop do not let the traditions of man or the "religons" of this world stop you from searching for Yahshua and HIS Father, YAHWEH. It will take time for the ackwardness of seeing HIS Hebrew name and letting it roll of your lips for you to feel comfortable to use that name. Think how long we were taught to call HIM by the English name we learned.

What I would like to share with you and other brothers and sisters here is that this last week many things regarding man's understanding of HIS Word has come into my path.
First with TRM's "letter to the brethren" and than a little book I received on "placing the Millennium".
I've tried I mean really tired to see these things that others are pointing out.
I've cryed WHY Yahshua am I not seeing them? What is wrong with me? Have I displeased you?
The end of this week here was HIS reply...

Why do you seek man's teaching. You asked to see me, I gave you my Word to find me in. You look for man's teaching/understanding in my Word. You can not see it because it is not there.

"But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own." Matthew 6:23

I need to, (I believe we all need to) seek first HIS kingdom and righteousness.....that is The Messiah, Yahshua.

Thank you brothers and sisters for being so patient with hilltop and myself, because you did not slaughter us, but you welcome us with open arms, the love of Yahshua.
That is why I continue to come...it is Yahshua's love that I see in you.

posted 12-10-2001 01:38 PM         

Here are two of their frequently asked questions taken directly from their site that brought to mine "New Age thinking":

Do you believe that man is God?

We don’t profess that the Physical Man is God (Yahweh-Elohim) but that God (Yahweh-Elohim) truly is THE REAL MAN and still manifests himself within the body of a Man. Yahweh is pure spirit and everything in the creation is one or another manifestation or expression of Yahweh. Now Yahweh takes on a spiritual shape and form known as Yahweh-Elohim or Christ. Now He in this Sonship degree is NOT WITHIN EVERYBODY. Come to class and we’ll explain this.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Do you believe that everything is God?

Yes, everything is Yahweh (the Father) because everything (organic and animated) that hath breath praises his name by breathing his name ; and even things so called inanimate or inorganic are made by the Divine Pattern given by God (Yahweh-Elohim) to Moses and the children of Israel and to all mankind by this Divine Vision and Revelation taught within IDMR.

I have not really spent too much time looking at their doctrine, but what I have read so far appears to me to be incorrect in many ways.

Anyway, I don't think I will be looking at their teachings anymore, but I thought I would share this information with the Forum.

Shalom and Happy Channukah,
Servant

posted 12-10-2001 03:10 PM            

I also took a quick look at the IDMR site recently, and did not find any earthshaking errors. At least for me, it was easier reading than reading from a traditional Christian site. As I have said, it was a quick reading.

I have come to the conclusion over the years, that because of limitation of our finite state, no matter what assembly one comes in contact with, there will only be some measure of understanding, and certainly not all (infinite)truth. I believe that I Cor. 13 is informing us thus when it says that we know and prophesy "in part," and will continue to do so until "that which is perfect is come."

I have noticed that each assembly has it own corner of knowledge, like a lawyer or physician specializing in his/her area of expertize, would not necessarily have knowledge in all the areas of law or medicine. The true assemblies or congregations of Yahushua are scattered over the entire earth, and collectively form the one Body of Messiah.

I believe it is YHWH's wisdom to distribute knowledge in this fashion, considering how mankind sometimes becomes easily puffed up with even the little knowlege it possesses.

Anyway, the Scripture gives us a good example of how to study: a little here, little here, line upon line, line upon line, precept upon precept, precept upon precept in acquiring truth.

Such a way of learning, I think, helps to keep one humble.

Blessings,

Riyah

posted 12-10-2001 07:04 PM            

What this is saying servant is that Yah is the only "male", we are the "bride". IT is Yah that gives the "seed", we the earth; are the "incibators" for that seed, so to speak. As the Word (seed) grows within us, Yah is "revealed" in us, and we through this "growth" become "one with the Father and his Word".

>> Yahweh is pure spirit <<

"The Father is Spirit, and those that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth". (John 4:24) As we can see the statement above is scripture.

>> and everything in the creation is one or another manifestation or expression of Yahweh.<<

Romans 1:19 Because that which may be known of YAH is "manifest" in them; for Yah hath >> "showed it" unto them. (HOW?) >>

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the >> "things that are made", even his eternal power and Supernal Nature(God head); so that they are without excuse:

The above is saying we may "see" something INVISIBLE! How? by the "things that are made". For all things in the physical are telling us "something" about Him and His Purpose and His plan.

Then of course there is > John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Anyone that is an artist of any sort feels as if a "peice" of them if not "all" of them is put into thier "work".

Yah tells us over and over that "He shall work a work IN us".

>> Now Yahweh takes on a spiritual shape and form known as Yahweh-Elohim or Christ. Now He in this Sonship degree is NOT WITHIN EVERYBODY. Come to class and we’ll explain this.<<

John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of Yah, even to them that believe on his name:

For it is only those that "receive" The Word, are they given power to beome the "sons of Yah". As we can see this is scripture.

And what is THAT Word that we are to receive?
I believe that word is "Love thy Neighbor".

For it says that we "receive of HIS FULNESS, mercy for mercy".

John 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and mercy for mercy.

I think that "word" or "commandment", is the beginning of our rebirth in Him. For His banner over us is Love. It must be ours over eachother. For His LAW IS; >>

Zechariah 7:9 Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Execute true judgment, and shew mercy and compassions every man to his brother:10 And oppress not the widow, nor the fatherless, the stranger, nor the poor; and let none of you imagine evil against his brother in your heart.

12 Yea, they made their hearts as an adamant stone, lest they should HEAR THE LAW, and the WORDS which YAH of hosts hath sent in his spirit by the former prophets: therefore came a great wrath from Yah of hosts.

>> Do you believe that everything is God?Yes, everything is Yahweh (the Father) because everything (organic and animated) that hath breath praises his name by breathing his name ; and even things so called inanimate or inorganic are made by the Divine Pattern given by God (Yahweh-Elohim) to Moses and the children of Israel and to all mankind by this Divine Vision and Revelation taught within IDMR. <<

For scripture says; that Yah is through us all, and in us all. Truly one can see that nothing can have it's "being" outside of Yah the creator of it.
As we can see through the "Tabernacle" (designed in every detail by YAH) lines us perfectly with our bodies. It also is seen in HIS Word OVER AND OVER > "Death, burial, resurrection". Every story has this "theme" so to speak. As is true in all of His creation. To say that every thing is Yah a false statement? show me anything that "lives" and tell me it may do this without it's creator/ruler/king.

The Tabernacle and the "Pattern thereof" is the revelation that is "taught within the IDMR". this is what they mean by that. And it is indeed a "revelation"... I do not see how anyone can dispute the "tabernacle" and the pattern of things that Yah has revealed.

well, I hope that helped you to see that what they said was scripture and not "new age". (smile)

For what it's worth... Henry Clifford Kinley, was black and indian. He had this vision in 1936. Imagine what a black/indian man had to "face" in 1936. He was told to "write his vision" upon tablets, that all that read it may run with it. When on goes into a Class, they are first "taken back" by all of the huge 'charts' in front of the class room. These "charts" are a pictorial of the entire bible, and is quite helpful for people of many languages.

I have never met H.C.Kinley, for he had gone on already when I entered in class. But I have met his family, and have seen one of his writings in his sisters house about "His vision".

He said that he does not know if he was in the body or out of the body... but somehow he was the "earth". and he knew he was at mt sinai, but more like he was mount sinai.. and he felt Moses walking on Him, and heard Moses and Yah speaking. And at first he was kind of mad, that moses had interupted his time with Yah. Then Yah called to Him, and called him "man". And told him to look. And He looked and he saw a shape and form of a "man" only without flesh and blood, and knew this to be "Elohim". He watched this figure turn into the tabernacle.
Then he saw him "turn into the first day", then back into the taberncacle, then into the 2nd.day, then back into the tabernacle and so on. By the time H.C. Kinley came out of the vision, he could only think about this tabernacle, but didn't understand the vision. Then later, Yah called him up again, and gave him the revelation of the thing. Thus H.C. Kinley came to understand that all things, and all creation proceeds forth from Yah, and His Word brings all things about.

It was hard for me to swallow the "vision" thing at first.
Until I read in scripture; "lest there be a vision, the people perish". So someone is gonna have a vision somewhere. Not to mention, the many visions Yah has given to those he chose to give to. This man H.C. Kinley had the education of a fifth or 3rd. grader(can't remember which). But isn't this just like Yah, to exalt the humble. (smile). I do have a tape of H.C. Kinley, preaching the gospel. He stuttered very badly, and had to take speech theropy, so he talks very, very slow. And can put you to sleep. but if you are able to stay awake and "listen" to what the man is saying... it is really astounding.

Most of the people in class are black. Many came in very poor.
but they rich! I tell you true, they are rich.

May we all turn our hearts unto Yah and Trust Him for the re making of Us. May we, His bride, declare the Works of Yah.

Love,
d'

posted 12-10-2001 10:47 PM            

Yah be with you.

Well, dear brother, all I can say is in the 14 years I have studied with many, many classes around the united states, they "teach" that YAH, and only YAH may fulfill His commandments. This is not against scripture dear brother, this IS scripture.

For Yahshua said; "It is not (( I )) that "doeth the works", it is the Father IN ME, >
HE > doeth the works.

Scriptures also tell us that Yah will "work a work" IN Us.

You say; > IDMR is a group which tends to have many gnostic beliefs, meaning they tend to believe all things of matter are inferior to pure spirit.

You seem to think this is against scripture as well, but dear brother, >>

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the WORDS that I "speak" unto you, they are SPIRIT, and they are LIFE.

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my WORDS (which are spirit) shall not pass away.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of Yahshua(Yahs salvation) will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which ((( I ))) >> WILL MAKE, shall remain before me, saith Yah, so shall your seed and your name remain.

It is not IDMR people battle against. It is scripture that they battle against.

People want so much to hang onto the physical, and their "control" or their authority or their self dicipline in the "keeping of the laws". But it is YAH that "keeps his laws". It is YAH in a person that makes them able. IT is YAH that "creates the man a new", not man!

You say; >> They fight against the law of Yahueh having a physical application and tend to spiritualize the plain meaning of the text away. They tend to make the spiritual meaning the only meaning. <<

And Yet it is YAH, dear brother that says;

Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saithYAH, that I will make a NEW
covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Do you not beleive that Yahshua(Yahs salvation) is indeed this "new covenant". Or do you seek another?

32 NOT according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith YAH:

Do people not "see" this? Do they think Yah a liar? He says His "new"
covenant... shall NOT be "like" the one given at the time He took the children out of Egypt.

:33 But THIS shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith YAH, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their El, and they shall be my people.

Please understand. This covenant will NOT be like the one given in the day they were taken out of egypt. and yet... we know Yahs law is forever and ever...right?
So how do we figure this? How is the law NOT going to be like the old?

I tell you true, it IS the "spirit" law that is written on our hearts and minds.
For Yahshua said; "My WORDS ARE SPIRIT, AND THEY ARE LIFE.
Is following the Law of Yah not life? Of course it is!

Johns baptism was a "physical" baptism. John declared that he was testifying to "another" that was GREATER THEN HE. I tell you true, the carnal laws testify to another "greater" then they. The spirit law.
John himself said "he must decrease, that Yahshua may increase".

As Yahshua says dear brother; "The flesh profiteth nothing".

Remember, we must live by "every word" out of the mouth of Yah.

People hear the law of Moses, but ignore "how" Yah says this will take place. They hear keep the feasts, but ignore that He is our potter, and we are the clay. They ignore the prophets saying over and over that YAH SAYS >> HE shall "perform it", He shall DO IT, He shall bring it to pass. He shall "create in us a new heart." People hear the law of Moses, but kill the prophets.

I tell you true, unless one puts Yah in their remembrance, and turns to Yah and declares themsleves >>

Isaiah 43:26 Put me in remembrance: let us plead together: declare thou, that thou mayest be justified.:27 Thy first father hath sinned, and thy teachers have transgressed against me.

Until we "do this", we shall in no way be justified. Why? Because we must ASK Yah to "remake us" according to His word. This is what being "re born" is all about. One must come to realize that Yah is WILLING, and graciously gives to all who turn to Him and ask Him. But it is HIS "work", HIS "doing". Not ours.

May Yah bless you, may His countence shine upon you, May He call you by name, and call you His.

Isaiah 17:7 At that day shall a man look to his Maker, and his eyes shall have respect to the Holy One of Israel.

posted 12-11-2001 10:00 AM            

Shalom David,

Thank you for taking a closer look at the IDMR website. I had taken only a quick look, and had planned to research further, but have not had the time. However, I have always known in my heart that a quick look to hunt out the Adversary is not enough. One needs to really investigate, because the Enemy is very smooth-tongued and sweet in his devices.

Although I've tired of the sometimes puffed-up arogance of some SN believers and longed for the "sweet" attitudes of some "Christian" believers, I have always been suspicious of their "sweetness"-- which is really the pseudo love of the Adversary, who even uses sincere people like DeAnna to do his dirty work ! I believe the Adversary works primarily in both populations of people -- those who are righteous, and those who are unrighteous. Those that are righteous, or at least on their way to becoming so, he puffs up many of them, making them obnoxious, as they begin to receive true knowledge, for the purpose of running away those seeking the truth of YHWH. (I have a dear friend that wants nothing do do with SN people, and does not even want to hear the name of YHWH because of the arogant persons he has come across in the SN groups). On the otherhand, in the group of the unrighteous (his own group) the enemy simply endows each with the craft of cunning subduction ! It is his job! Much prayer, fasting and study is required not to get caught, or to stay out of his fangs, for REV. 9:12 tells us the "whole world" has been deceived by this horrible deceiver.

Shalom DeAnna,

Come out, dear DeAnna, if Yahushua's Torah is being trampled on. Come out of their comfort zone of much giving of the physical to nourish the physical, but starving the spiritual that is within. For Scripture asks, what does it profit to gain the entire world, and lose one's soul? I know you of your own power cannot come out, for it is evident that the evil one has a GREAT hold on you with cunning twisting of the Scriptures. Remember, the evil one knows more scripture than any human, and cunningly uses it for his own purpose. But YHWH is "greater than he that is in the world." Anyone or anything that teaches against the obedience to Yahushua's Torah is either in utter ignorance, or is in satanic control. It would be a great sin for me not to say so. I must warn. Scripture tells us to "come out of her, my people that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."

But then again, you can also tell those who believe in Torah, to "come out." However, one of the hallmarks of false teaching is when the NT is taught to go against OT, with the all too familiar phrase, Old Covenant Vs. New Covenant. Scripture does not contradict itself, nor did Yahushua go against the Torah, but lived and taught (QUOTED) many times from it. Remember the NT had not yet been written. So the only Scriptures quoted from was what we today call the OT.

A great sign of false doctrine is the spiritualizing away of Yahushua's Torah, substituting a feeling of euphoria. Satan knows mankind likes to feel good, with no or little responsibility on its part.

Blessings,

Riyah

posted 12-11-2001 02:17 PM            

I see, we must start over. (smile)
First of all... David... you are mistaken in what you "think" I am saying. r I am mistaken in the way I'm putting it. So if I may... I shall try again.
Please be patient with me. I truly seek TRUTH... not mans way, not the flesh way, not my way... but Yahs way. It is what I ask for, it is what I believe HE will lead me to.

In much of your writing I hear you say all the things that "we" must do.
I know that "I" cannot make you understand, and you cannot "make" me understand.
Only those that AskYah to "make them understand" will be made to understand.
For it is Yah and ONLY Yah, that brings forth the "increase".

I am accused of speaking against the Law of Yah. or often accused of "picking and choosing."... this always cracks me up. For it is the "Law preachers" that are the "pickers and choosers". For I have yet for ANYONE to tell or confess or convince me, that "they" keep the whole torah in the physical... and YET... preach to others to do so!
How is this NOT like the "pharasees"?

Paul also was "accused" of speaking against the Law of Yah... Paul at one time was accusing and persecuting others, because HE "thought" they taught against the law of Yah.

People read in scripture; "Because they did not obey my laws, statutes and judgments..." and automatically think > "Law of Moses". As if this is the only Law Yah has ever spoken.

Look, in the beginning, there was only ONE law. That law was; don't EAT of the knowledge of good and evil.
(which by the way is the pointing of the finger!)
But they ate. They broke the Law of Yah. And they were "ashamed" or condemned, and "saw" their nakedness. so they immediately "clothe" themselves. do we not all do this? Try to "clothe" ourself with some righteousness, that our nadedness shall not be discovered? Did Yah "accept" Adam and Eves "covering" that they >> "made THEMSELF"? No, before He "sent them out", HE made them clothing by HIS OWN HANDS. Their "covering" was HIS DOING... NOT theirs.

Then Noah was given the "7" laws. and a RAINBOW, a PROMISE. 7 denotes perfection. 6 days "Yah worked" 7th. day He rested. He was "finished". it was "done", completed, perfected.

Yahshua says; (not DeAnna!) >John 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, Moses, in whom ye trust.
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

The scriptures TESTIFY of YAHSHUA... Not US! Well, the "righteousness" of the scriptures... "Jacob" testifiys to "us". Israel does.. "David" was PUT HERE
to be a WITNESS >> to Us. But Yahshua said to John...

"Just suffer it to be so NOW John... for it is up to us to FULFILL ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS". So all the "righteousness" of the "scriptures" Yahs Word was to fulfill.
For Yahshua testified, that it was not "he" that did the works, but YAH did the works.

People want Yahshua to be their "human witness", but Yahshua is NOT our "human witness", SCRIPUTRE SAYS; "David is our "Human witness".YAHSHUA Is called the "Son of David", Because He was the "manifestation" of "Davids Prayers!" That Yahs WORD would be made flesh, or "Put into Him" (him, as in David) Yahshua (Yahs salvation) is Yahs Word PUT IN US.

We cannot "put" this Word in us. We do not HAVE that authority... ONLY Yah has that authority. WE may only 'ASK' for it. WE are "dead"... a "dead thing" HAS NO POWER... a "dead thing" has no "force", or self dicipline, or strength, or what ever you want to call it, that brings a thing about... ONLY YAH has "power"!!! "force, authority" etc. ONLY YAH RULES! There IS No Other!

WE cannot "make ourself", WE cannot Create ourself, WE cannot turn ONE HAIR(covering) ON OUR HEAD(rulership) WHITE (pure) OR BLACK! (sinful)

We are not the makers of the universe and all that is therein YAH IS!

David ASKED for a PURE HEART, and GOT ONE! David could not "create" a pure heart within himself, if he could then why ASK for one? DAVID > ASKED For YAH to keep a lying and decietful tongue far from him, NOT HIM STRENGTH to "do it", but for YAH TO DO IT. David came in YAHS NAME (POWER) NOT HIS OWN.

Why put that in "mans hands" that are NOT OF MANS HANDS?
We are not "HERE" to "declare the "works of man", we are HERE to "declare the works of YAH".

That is what "Havah" (Eves real name) means; "To DECLARE".
WE are the "bride", WE are to declare what the works of the HUSBAND and not ours!
It is the HUSBAND that "builds the house" and provides ALL provisions thereof. It is the HUSBAND that plants the vinyards!

One cannot "keep a lying tongue far from them" because they "choose too"! One may only "choose" to TURN to YAH and ASK that HE "Grant" them this thing. That HE brings this about, and TRUSTS in YAHS GOODNESS to grant him such a thing. That is the ONLY WAY man shall ever keep the law of "Thou shalt not bear false witness". And THAT is YAHS SALVATION... not our own!

Can you tell a blind man to cure himself? Do you not know through SCRIPTURE that Jacob has a wound that NO MAN CAN CURE?
do you not know through scripture that Satan was raised up to be a > "WORTHY ADVERSARY UNTO YAH" ?

If scripture is TRUE and Satan was raised up to be a worthy adversary to Yah, isn't is safe to assume that "man" is no match for satan?IF this is so, then it is NOT mans WAR!
Flesh verses spirit is not "mans war". It is YAHS WAR.

'OUR WAR, "Mans war" >' is > who do we beleive?

When Satan ACCUSED the angels TO THE FATHER, there were angels that "believed" satan. What did they beleive? That the Father was AGAINST THEM.
So they followed Satan, in search of "their own perfection", to be "perfect" as Satan was "perfect". Because THEY did not Trust Yah to "make them perfect" OR "justified".

But Yah created only "one" angel "perfect", and no iniquity was found in him the "day" the HE WAS MADE. That was "Satan". THAT is WHY satan could point the finger... but satans GREATEST Crime, was to claim to BE the Father, or the "Creator", of Himself! He "took the works of YAHS HANDS" and claimed it for
his "own". Thus the "mark" of the BEAST(flesh) in our "Right hand"(deed) and in our FOREHEAD(Authority).

I was a great liar and a great thief! it was habitual for me. I KNEW I was "hopeless". I "BEGGED" for forgiveness most all of my life. Since I was a young girl... I "knew" I could not "change". I feared I was the "judas" sitting in
church pews because "I" didn't "get it'...everyone seemed so perfect, I knew I could never be that way... what did they "get" that I didnt'? Why can't I change?
I read, I studied, I prayed, I begged, I cried; "give me strength", have mercy, make me to do right" BINGO! > "make me".

I came into class after I had given up on all churches, religions, doctrines. I beleived we were not "meant" to "Know" the truth. Class said to me; "DeAnna, it is good that you ask forgiveness... and you ARE forgiven! But why not ASK FOR DELIVERANCE. For "you" are not your deliverer. Yahshua is. You cannot "make yourself" or create yourself, but Yah can and DOES. So ask Yah to "do it for you". don't look to your "own" hand, you have already found out that you cannot. Just ask, and be patient, and "wait upon Yah"... He'll deliver you! If you though you are evil can give good gifts to your children, how much more is HE WILLING to give to those that ASK HIM.

They also told me "how" to BELEIVE in my deliverance.
They said; Now... when you Ask Yah to write His laws on your heart, that you may obey Him... when Satan the ruler of the flesh says to you; "why would he do this for you?"... You say back. WHY NOT! Why "wouldn't Yah give you deliverance from a lying tongue, it is what he wants for you, He will make you
according to the desires of your heart, so unless you desire for a lying tongue to be kept far from you and ask for it... it will not be "made".

Yah has truly delivered me from a lying tongue and a thieving hand. But I do not forget for one split second. That at any moment I could be handed over and fall in a heartbeat. That it is not " I " that does it. It is YAH that "does it".
Now I know what Yahshua meant when He said;

"I come in my Fathers name(Power/authority) and ye receive me not, if ANOTHER shall come in his "own name"(own power), him, ye will receive.

The prince of this world has said to us, Yah did not make you very good the first time around, so you re- make yourself, because you can do a much better job.

So people go about trying to "make themselves a new", never turning to YAH about His hands being the ones that "make them".

Isaiah 45:11 Thus saith YAH, the Holy One of Israel, and his MAKER, Ask me of things to come concerning my SONS, and concerning the WORK of MY HANDS > "command ye me."

David trusted the "work of Yahs hands" when it came to the re making of him. Yah revealed Himself to David, and thus David slowly came to "know" what to ask for. The more we get to know Yah...about YAH (not ourselves) the more we "desire" to say; I do not want to be a thief. When one turns to Yah and says;

Dear Yah, I do know that thou art the authority of all that exists. That by THY Word all things do proceed forth. There is this thing in my life, and it slays me, it causes me to feel far from you... I take things that don't belong to me, and I hate myself because of it. O' have mercy on me a sinner O' Yah, and cast off the thieving hand from me, create in me the obediance to thy word O'Yah, that I may serve you all the days of my life.

Yah will 'hear" the prayers of the broken spirits. When they come to see that their own hand is short indeed, and there is no hope but the hand of Yah.This is when "The blind are healed", and "the lame walk", and "the deaf hear".That Yah IS an answerer of prayers, and how he LOVES the prayers of they that truly "seek" HIS hand in all things.

I do not tell another do not lie, do not steal, they have no power of their own, any more then I did. Nor do I judge by the flesh. (again, because Yah grants me this) But I can give them what was given to me, and that is the understanding
that "you have a maker". and He is wonderful and gracious to all who turn unto Him. and He will "re make' you according to the desires of your heart. And IF you "turn to Yah and tell him your desire not to steal/lie etc" and "ask him to deliver you, and create you a new creature, He is merciful and kind and good to
all those that trust in HIM and HIS ABILITY and POWER, and AUTHORITY, and HE will NOT forsake you... though we have forsaken him all our lives, every time we claimed to be our own maker.

There IS a "spirit law" to every "carnal law". The Sabbath, the feasts, have spirit laws that MUST be kept, but can ONLY be kept by Trusting HIM.

The feast of Tabernacles is truly about YAH DWELLING WITHIN US.
And until one comes to this conclusion, they in no way have "kept" the true/spirit law of the feasts of tabernacles. When people believe that they do righteous deeds due to their own choosing or own self dicipline or own power or what have you... they DID NOT put the "first fruits" upon the DOOR of the "stick" hut they made themselves, and GIVE these first fruits to YAH!

See... first we "Think" we make our house... then we come to realize that Yah told David he could not "build the temple". You know, the Temple that Yah would dwell in. But that "his SON would". Solomon is not this son. Solomon is symbolic of the "churches" and religions, "many temples".
but The son > is; "The Son of David" ie; "Yahshua" ie; Yahs salvation ie; Yahs Word! will "build the temple" ... us... the One that YAH Dwells in. The "Temple" where YAH rules.
It is The Word that "builds us". not the works of us.

Yah gave and gives us HIS WORD that HE shall "make us a new" and that HE SHALL MAKE US WHITE AS SNOW and that HE shall "cause us to walk upright"... that 'HE' shall "do these things" not us. dear friend, not us.

Every time we tell a person to be "responsible, and accountable" for the "forming" of their "spirit"/ heart/ walk.
we do go against scripture, Yahs word that says; >>
" I FORMETH The SPIRIT in a Man"!

The carnal law against the carnal flesh will slay it every time. But that's what it's for... that is what is supposed to happen. For one cannot seek baptism of repentance until one has been baptised in blood, or guilt,or shame. For the FIRST baptism was The "Children of Israel" UNTO > MOSES(law) and MOSES(law) unto the "red sea" or "sea of BLOOD". Adm; in hebrew is "red"
and is also "blood". And they went through on "dry ground". Thus "Zion" means "parched ground" or "parched place". Because the "spirit" wasn't IN THEM yet. or their ability to be aware of it.

The "carnal law of Moses" was meant to "draw us". Once we have come unto the baptism of blood, we die, or are "condemned". and this brings us unto the baptism of "repentance", this is johns baptism. The professing to be a sinner, and then symbolically washed by the word. as "water" is "word". we no longer need to die, we were already dead, the law slayed the flesh already, now it's about forgiveness and being made "new". After THIS
baptism, THEN comes the baptism of the Spirit saying;
Now... let me tell you about YAH, your "maker". Now that YOUR dead and gone, learn of HIM. And what HE DOES, what HE BRINGS ABOUT, What HE has stretched forth, and what HE will stretch forth.

This is YAHS Salvation. Not mans. not mine, not yours. Only His.

Isaiah 17:7 At that day shall a man look to his Maker, and his eyes shall have respect to the Holy One of Israel.

Now if you feel lead to slam IDMR, I guess you have to just wear it out, but keep in mind, that you are not quoting scripture when you slam these people, you are speaking your own words. "And by our words we shall be condemned, and by
our words we shall be justified."

IDMR's "words" and entire message is that YAH is in control of ALL THINGS. That YAH and YAH alone is RULER. He does "reign". HE is the Lord of Lord and King of Kings, and there IS NO OTHER power/ source/ authority outside of HIM. Thus the pointing of the finger is taken from the midst of us.

And if we want to be "re made" we best "return unto the house of David" and start talking to OUR MAKER about the "making of us".
for I tell you true, He will hear us. Now is the time. It is the season of the bride, and this too is scriptural. anyone that has been given any understanding of revelations knows this is true.

anytime we put authority into anothers hand, we do testifiy that there is authority outside of Yah. We point out "another" authority, or power, or 'ruler" if you will. We tell an unrighteous thing to perform righteousness. And make
them twice the child of hell that we were. The only way to "righteousness", and I do mean ANY "righteousness" is to ASK Yah to "pour out" HIS upon us.
And our FAITH in Him to DO SO... will be credited to us "as" righteousness' and LATER it will "manifest". He will bring it to pass. Howbeit, it is through our "sin" that this comes about.

Example;
A "forgiving heart" is one that "performs righteousness". For Yahshua said;
"forgive that ye may be forgiven". Yahshua is not going to tell you to do anything "unrighteous". Therefore this is righteousness.

Howbeit the most forgiving people are the greatest "sinners". They are among the "weakest people". For it is difficult for one to forgive another for stealing, when they themselves are not guilty of it. or for lying when they feel they do not lie.

"I am wonderfully and FEARFULLY made".

I tell you true, it is the sinners that fear, not the "righteous".

O man that preaches Torah, do you KEEP TORAH?
Do you not know if you broken one, your GUILTY of all?

But Yahshua did not come to "condemn" the world, but came so that it would be saved. Moses came to condemn, through Moses/Adam/blood/condemnation/pointing out sin/...
ALL > fall... through Yahshau(Yahs salvation) all live.
The carnal law slays the flesh, but the spirit law SAVES the Spirit!

The carnal law is the first baptism, the condemnation from that baptism brings us unto "repentance" or Yahshua; "come unto me all ye who are heavy laidened and burdened." Well, there is no greater BURDEN then hating yourself due to sin!

And I will give you REST unto YOUR SOULS. Take my Yoke upon YOU.
Not our yoke upon Him. NO! HIS "yoke" UPON us. It's "HIM ON US".
Not "us putting ourselves on him!"

behold, scripture says the law is a lantern. But unless accompanied by oil(spirit) it cannot give light. The 10 vigins all had "lanterns". only 5 of them had enough "oil" (spirit).

Ask Yah, and it shall be given. Don't ask Yah, and try as you may, it shall not be.

I don't mean to yell, I'm just making "points". And trying to stick to scripture. I just want to try to show forth what I feel He has shown me, but I don't know if I'm dong a very good job or not. Sorry so long.

May Yah bless you all. May He truly grant us His "Latter rain". May we pray for it, and ask Him for it, as He tells us too. May we all turn to Him in all things and thank Him and praise Him and forever declare the works of His hands for He is truly worthy.

love,
d'

posted 12-12-2001 01:30 AM            

I do not pick or choose and I do understand what you are saying about the spiritual application of the law. I just do not believe the spiritual application does away with the natural application. I keep the feast of Tabernacles both ways, by Him tabernacling in me and by observing the fall feast of thanksgiving for the harvest of natural and spiritual food He has provided. I also keep the years of release and Jubilee both ways. They work together they are not opposed to one another. The law given through Moshe' is the law of Yahueh.

The same law of Yahueh is written on the mind and heart of the believer that wa first written on stone. The law does not change but where it is written does. The Holy Spirit in the Book of Acts was poured out on the anniversary of the giving of the Torah in the Sinai dessert. The Holy Spirit which is Yahueh dwells in us giving us the desire to be obedient to His law at all levels and it is all spiritual even in the natural obvious manifestation. The materiel is spiritual when used in the right way. Yeremiah 31 and Hebrew 8 are speaking of obedience.

The feast were from the beginning, Genesis 1:14-16,(look up the word "seasons" in the King James Version. You will find out it is "moedim" meaning appointed times, feast, etc... The sabbath for rest and assembly was also from the beginning, Genisis 2:1-5. We are still natural and will still have a body transformed by His appearing and will continue to keep these divine appointments in eternity, Isaiah 65-66, and Zachariah 12-14. Without obedience to the commandments of Yahueh our God we will not eat of the fruit of the tree of life, Revelations 22:14.
Yes they have spiritual meaning a depth but if we only see the meaning and do not obey then we will be lost forever. We must divide and rightly apply the Scriptures.

posted 12-12-2001 10:52 AM            

Yah be with you.

I understand what you are saying. And I think it is wonderful that you obey Yah "both ways".

Please understand... people kill me when they preach "Keep the law of Moses", and "imply" that they themselves keep the law of Moses, but then you find out that they keep the feasts of tabernacles, but don't actually build a stick house/hut. Or they keep the passover, only they now don't slay a lamb. Or they are up to their ears in debt due to interest... etc.
My point is... I do not "Know" anyone outside of Yahshua that "has" truly "kept Torah".
ONLY because of what Yahshua said;
"guilty of one, guilty of all". THIS is why I say this.

I realize there are many good hearted people that mean to say; "try to keep the Law of Moses"... But to say; "KEEP Torah", if they themselves do NOT keep "every letter of torah", then how dare they tell another too!

2nd-ly, Unless one "returns unto the House of David", and ASKS that Yah "Grant them His Laws GRACIOUSLY" like David did, no one has any HOPE of "keeping Torah"...
For an "unrighteous" thing CANNOT bring forth righteousness... YAH is the ONLY righteous One. Only HE may "manifest His Word". Only by ASKING Him to manifest HIS Word IN YOU, will this take place. What I am saying, to just tell some one DO THIS.... when it is not IN THEIR HAND TO DO IT, but in Yahs only! Doesn't "do" anyone any good. But to "declare the works of Yah"... to lead people to YAH.... Get them to TALK TO YAH, >> ASK Yah... THIS is their ONLY HOPE of any righteousness!

This is their only hope for "change". For it is YAH That formeth the spirit in a man.
Yah is the "creator", our "maker". WE are the "clay/earth". HE is the POTTER. The ONLY way one is going to get an "honest heart" is to "turn to Yah and ask HIM for it". The only way one shall be DELIVERED from a thieving hand is when they turn to Yah and ASK Him to deliver them from a thieving hand. And HE Will !

But as soon as someone starts thinking... "hey look, I'M doing pretty good" Yah will cause that person to "fall" and DO that which is NOT convenient for him to do ... to SHOW him just WHO is in control here. Who "causes you" to "walk upright".

For we are ALL theives and liars every time we call our life our "own". Everytime we are of the mind that it is "our hand" at work, and not Yahs hand at work here.
People will not, cannot, "stop" thieving in the flesh UNTIL they stop doing it to Yah in their spirit!
And the ONLY thing that shall bring this about is FAITH IN YAH and HIS willingness TO DO IT, to "perform it" to bring it to pass, JUST like He Says He will. What, is Yah a liar?
NO... as we all know He is not... And HE says that HE will CAUSE YOU to walk upright.
HE will make you white as snow... HE will create in you a new heart! NOT MAN, not you, not me, not another, Yah does these things, to and FOR all who Turn to HIM and Ask HIM to create them as such.

Man is NOT "his own maker". And everytime we teach that he is, we lie to , and we steal from YAH. For we sin AGAINST HIM. THat is why it is manifested in the flesh.
When we STOP doing this to HIM, it will stop in the flesh. Thats just the way it works.

We must recognise that we have a maker... that our maker is GOOD, and KIND, and LOVING, and DESIRES to "make you as such"... according to the desires of your heart.
But WHAT are the "desires" of our heart? What ARE we asking him for? Strength? that "we may do a thing"? or "Deliverance"? Money? a job? a house? a spouse? a healing? understanding? a pure heart? What are we "asking Him for"?

Because whatever someone is "asking for" that is what they are getting! I don't care what phonetic name someone is speaking, if they believe they have come before the ONE AUTHORITY OF ALL... and put their cause before their KING. And beleives in HIS GOODNESS, they are being answered!

But they are NOT going to truly "keep Torah", until they ASK for him to write His Laws on their heart. THEY cannot "write HIS Laws on their heart" Only Yah can.

Do you see this?

Thank you for speaking with me.
May Yah bless you.

posted 12-12-2001 01:42 PM         

quote:

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Originally posted by DeAnna:
Shalom david-ben-yacob,

Yah be with you.

I understand what you are saying. And I think it is wonderful that you obey Yah "both ways".

Please understand... people kill me when they preach "Keep the law of Moses", and "imply" that they themselves keep the law of Moses, but then you find out that they keep the feasts of tabernacles, but don't actually build a stick house/hut. Or they keep the passover, only they now don't slay a lamb. Or they are up to their ears in debt due to interest... etc.
My point is... I do not "Know" anyone outside of Yahshua that "has" truly "kept Torah".
ONLY because of what Yahshua said;
"guilty of one, guilty of all". THIS is why I say this.

I realize there are many good hearted people that mean to say; "try to keep the Law of Moses"... But to say; "KEEP Torah", if they themselves do NOT keep "every letter of torah", then how dare they tell another too!

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I agree with you on this issue. My nick of "torah4today" indicates that I fully believe that the Torah is indeed for today. Do I keep it to the letter... I certainly do not as you have pointed out. I "kept" feast of Tabernacles this year, but I didn't do it in Jerusalem as Torah commands, and I actually stayed in a big house. So really I didn't keep it.

There are so many other aspects to the Torah that nobody wants to talk about such as laws of cleanness for men with discharge or women during their menstrual period, wearing of clothes without blended fabrics, wearing of tassles (although a few do keep this), and so on.

Nevertheless, I still think the Torah is for us today. It is not "against" us. Rather, it shows us just how far off the mark we are and shows us our desperate need for repentance and atonement through the sacrificial blood of the Saviour Yahshua. Here is where the spirit of the law comes in to teach us, for the Spirit of Messiah dwells in us who are of the faith and day by day teaches us line upon line, precept upon precept until one day we will become perfected through Him and will be LIKE Him.

Alas, that day may not come until He comes, but in the meantime we still don't give up. We keep trying (not through the flesh, but with and through the Spirit!).

Shalom!