posted 08-21-2002 06:53 PM         

You make good points. I too have made the point many times on this forum that ayin is a guttural and that anciently it was not silent, but in some cases pronounced very strongly. The final "a" is not a full vowel but comes from a furtive patakh, which is there only to facilitate the pronunciation of the ayin after the "u" vowel.

I do question your form #2. It does not conform to "standard" grammar. A long vowel (qamatz) in an unaccented propretonic syllable would be expected to reduce to a vocal sh'wa. Even more unusual is the dagesh that appears in the hei. Gutturals do not take a dagesh. The dot that that appears in some final hei's is a mappiq, which indicates that the hei is a consonant and not a mater. I do understand that you cannot verify this form.

Good advice in your posts!

ThePhysicist

posted 08-21-2002 09:07 PM         

quote:

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Originally posted by ThePhysicist:
Shalom Ahab

You make good points. I too have made the point many times on this forum that ayin is a guttural and that anciently it was not silent, but in some cases pronounced very strongly. The final "a" is not a full vowel but comes from a furtive patakh, which is there only to facilitate the pronunciation of the ayin after the "u" vowel.

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Shalom Physicist,

I also notice that there are some Israelis that do pronounce Ayin in certain words with a slight harness to it. I have heard some say for example `eser with a noticiable kind of internal gulp. It is kind of hard to describe in writing, but then you know what I mean. I do wonder also how the Shom'ronim (Samaritans) pronounce Ayin or as they call it `in. Interestingly enough on the Samaritan gutterals.

This situation is reflected nicely in the Samaritan linguistic tradition. On the one hand, this tradition indicates that Khet and Ayin are matres lectionis like Aleph and Hay and serve as a basis for the devopment of vowel signs (LOT II, 309, 311), while, on the other hand, Khet and Ayin are called "sound gutteral consonants," unlike Aleph and Hay, "weak gutteral consonants" (LOT I, 55, 11.16-17.)

It is also good to note that the Samaritan `In (or Ayin) is sometimes made, as a place of articulation, at the Laryngeal and it is considered "frictive voiced".

quote:

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Originally posted by ThePhysicist:

I do question your form #2. It does not conform to "standard" grammar. A long vowel (qamatz) in an unaccented propretonic syllable would be expected to reduce to a vocal sh'wa. Even more unusual is the dagesh that appears in the hei. Gutturals do not take a dagesh. The dot that that appears in some final hei's is a mappiq, which indicates that the hei is a consonant and not a mater. I do understand that you cannot verify this form.

---

The pointing I used is definately highly questionable. Because I haven't personally seen the document I tried the best I could to post the pronunciation I have heard the Munstern Version contains. If you ignore the dagesh I added to the Hay (you are right on that I missed that one), I think you will kind of get the type of pronunciation I have heard is claimed is in the Munster version. I could actually have a Hateph Pathach under the Yod, don't know though.

It seems like the form that the Munster version reflects similar type of pronunciation which can exist in some Aramaic where instead of a Hay you would have an Alap like in MarYah [Meem-Resh-Yodh-Alap] (This is often used in certain Aramaic text instead of writing the Name of the Creator. Mar in Aramaic is like Adon in Hebrew which means "master" or "ruler".). In the DuTillet text of MattithYahu there are three Daleph's kind of like the Single Dalet placed on most Tallits or the Yod-Yod. Yet, I digress.

This would be similar to how the Murashu texts render Yod-Hay in Names. Yet, I think the same rule would apply with Aramaic.

Now let me ask you this. Could this be better rendered as Yod (Hateph Pathach)-Hey (Sh'va)- Waw - Shin (Qibbutz) - Ayin (Pathach)? I am just kind of throwing things in the wind though, because I don't know exactly how it is written in the Munster nor how the Murashu texts render things. (????) After you answer this part I won't go any further with discussion on # 2 because it becomes like grasping for straws.

quote:

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Originally posted by ThePhysicist:

Good advice in your posts!

ThePhysicist

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And to think this is only my second semester of Hebrew. Still learning Classical Aramaic though.

posted 08-21-2002 11:57 PM         

You will need to download the fonts. Side note: I am listing this based on the format with the actual Aramaic text not the translation.

posted 08-22-2002 05:06 PM         

Ahab,you said:
The reason is when Kaf has no dagesh lene in it English doesn't have an aproximate sound. Just like Khet, there is no aproximate in English so writing it is an attempt at putting it into words, which is why it is transliterated by an H with a dot under it.

***There may be no approximate sound in the english, but isn't Kaf with no dagesh and Keht just like the 'ch' in German? Like in 'Bach'?***

***Also, you said that you could obtain copies of those documents you listed in your post...I would be very, very interested in receiving those, can you tell me more about it or how it can be done? Thanks.***

***Torah4Today: Since your congregation is searching out more information on Messiah's Name, how do you go about praying and witnessing to others? Do you just continue to use the form 'Yahshua'for now?***

***My biggest problem I suppose, is that when trying to 'witness' to others, things get all confusing when it comes to Messiah's Name. I want to tell them the prob with the name Jesus...but then don't have any clear evidence for any other pronunciation. There seems to be evidence to back up the use of all of them, from Yeshua to Y'shua. I don't know. If needs be, I'm certainly willing to wait on Messiah to return and give us His exact Name...but then I really feel I have no right to preach to others about not using 'Jesus.' I hope I'm not confusing anyone.

Also, for those of you who use 'Y'shua' how do you pronounce that exactly? Did you say that ' stand for a vowel and if so, which one?

***Lavi Chagyah, thank you for your post, I will have to research more into it here soon***

YHWH bless you all
Jamie

posted 08-22-2002 08:21 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jamie:

***Torah4Today: Since your congregation is searching out more information on Messiah's Name, how do you go about praying and witnessing to others? Do you just continue to use the form 'Yahshua'for now?***

***My biggest problem I suppose, is that when trying to 'witness' to others, things get all confusing when it comes to Messiah's Name. I want to tell them the prob with the name Jesus...but then don't have any clear evidence for any other pronunciation. There seems to be evidence to back up the use of all of them, from Yeshua to Y'shua. I don't know. If needs be, I'm certainly willing to wait on Messiah to return and give us His exact Name...but then I really feel I have no right to preach to others about not using 'Jesus.' I hope I'm not confusing anyone.

Also, for those of you who use 'Y'shua' how do you pronounce that exactly? Did you say that ' stand for a vowel and if so, which one?

---

Shalom Jamie,

We welcome you back in your new yet original name!

Our congregation as a whole still uses "Yahshua" as the english transliteration of yod hey waw shin ayin. I personally use "Y'Shua" and the pronunciation is almost the same.

As I read somewhere (forget where.. might have been here), the "Y, apostrophe" in "Y'Shua" is pronounced much as the "a" in the word "ago" is pronounced. Sometimes I use the long form which to the best of my limited knowledge is "Yehoshua".

Witnessing to others? I do inform them of the folly of calling on the grecianized/romanized "J-sus" but at the same time realize that I was also there once.

I merely point out the false and invite them to help me find the true. If they don't want to find out the true then I let them be. It's just about that simple really.

There are enough people out there seeking truth for me to devote my time to that I don't have enough time left to try to persuade those who's mind is already made up. Don't have that much energy either! (LOL... cuz it sure can wear ya down!)

You saw the message I gave on the names... not much has changed for me other than what I just wrote above. YHWH always seems to bring the true truthseekers in contact with one another... that's been my observation.

Shalom and Tsidkeynu in YHWH and His Annointed,
T4T
(you can call me Steve!)

posted 08-22-2002 09:03 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jamie:

Ahab,you said:
The reason is when Kaf has no dagesh lene in it English doesn't have an aproximate sound. Just like Khet, there is no aproximate in English so writing it is an attempt at putting it into words, which is why it is transliterated by an H with a dot under it.

***There may be no approximate sound in the english, but isn't Kaf with no dagesh and Keht just like the 'ch' in German? Like in 'Bach'?***

---

Personally, I don't know German so I can't help you there. I do know that native German speakers don't speak English in the same way as native born English speakers. Yet, what I can tell you is that native English speakers don't pronounce the "ch" in Bach like a "Khaf" (Kaf without a dagesh lene). Most native English speakers pronounce Bach like "Bawk" or "Bah-k", depending on what region of the English speaking realm they come from some may pronounce the "ch" very lightly. Most native English speakers pronounce Bach like Kaf (with a dagesh lene). The same would apply with Khet. The way we know this is just by taking the English alphbet and then certain consonant combinations. Look throuh a dictionary and find all the "ch" and "kh" words. Get a native born English to say each one. Then get a native born Israeli or even a native born Russion (or any similar language group) to pronounce them, based on the language they were born with.

If they are trying to say the words, based on the place they live and not the place they come from then they will make similar sounds. One of my co-workers is from Russia. His name is Mikhael Grabois, if you hear him say his name to an native English speaker he simply says Mike. Yet, when I first started working with him I surprised him by saying his name as it is said in Hebrew which the Russian sounds similar.

An Ethiopian for example would pronounce all the vowels right, but not the gutterals. The reason is in Ethiopia the gutterals are different because they are produced by the tongue and teeth.

The way that these sounds are produced are in ways that English speakers don't use, even in words imported from other countries. For example, in Hebrew Khet is made by placing articulation in the laryngeal and it is considered frictive voice. Chaf is often similar, but in Samaritan Hebrew it is articulated on "velar", and it is also frictive voice. Take for instane the name Michael, Michiel, etc.. Most English speakers would say Mikall. Just think how people pronounce Michael Jackson. Yet, even in a language like Russion which if memory serves came from Estrucean would pronounce it as "Mee-kha-eyl" or "Mee-cha-eyl" or "Mee-cha-el". Once again I am only approximating here by using "ch" and "kh" because once again most native English speakers would see "ch" and pronounce it like "chance". This is produced by somewhat putting the teeth together then opening them as air is breathed through them. "Ch" and "Kh" in most Semetic derived languages produce it with open teeth, and it often sounds like it is back of the throat. That is why some people who used to make jokes about Jews speaking Hebrew would talk like they are spitting, chocking, or ulalating. (smile)

It is no different than with "Amharic" (Ethiopian language). One of the characters in their alphabet is t` (I don't have the symbol, but it is transliterated with a dot under it.) This is produced by placing the tongue on the top pallet of the mouth and pronounced like a "t" while explouding the tongue off the teeth. No word native to English has that. "T" is just an approximation, but the word (in Ethiopian) T`enayust'lin would be pronounced with the t` as a regular "t" by a non-Ethiopian/Eritrian.

It gets really complicated which is why the best way to hear how Hebrew is pronounced is to hear it spoken, by one who either grew up in a Hebrew environment or has acutally studied the language by hearing a Native speak it. That is why people who SERIOUSLY major in Semetic languages normally are required to go and live in Israel for at least one year.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jamie:

***Also, you said that you could obtain copies of those documents you listed in your post...I would be very, very interested in receiving those, can you tell me more about it or how it can be done? Thanks.***

---

You can go to the following site for a free Aramaic version of the HaB'reet HaKhadashah. http://www.stackpole.freeserve.co.uk/syriac/

They have three Aramaic forms, which you will need to download in order to see the Word documents. They have a transliteration and a translation, but that is going to depend on whether you trust their ability to translate. The other problem is with the transliteration, this is an attempt to convey the sounds, but may not fully give you ACTUAL way a native, or taught Aramaic speaker would speak it.

Just to give you an example. Go to the following web-sites and compare the first recitation of the Aramaic prayer that Mashee'akh gave and then the second recitation. See if you notice difference between the Native Aramaic speaker and the trained Aramaic speaker.
http://www.noohra.com/Index.pl?mm/Lords_Prayer
http://www.cired.org/pdf/slota.html

The second site has a transliteration as well as an audio.

Once again all of this is going to be based on who or what you trust. Anyone can make a claim for something, but if they can't back it up in the texts or in the language, I would say take it with a grain of salt. Like I said before there are a lot of THEORIES on a lot of stuff. Personally, I use the texts and a background in the Hebrew and Aramaic languages to put things to the test. So if a person can only analyze Hebrew word by word, instead of text/statement/then context of word in text and statement I would say that is questionable information. Especially, since both Hebrew and Aramaic are HEAVILY driven by context. Context helps narrow down certain word meanings. Even if they can back it up still take it with grain of salt, that includes everything I just posted.

------------------
Ahab EliYah-El'Askeni
Sight Beyond Sight http://3n1promo.com/sight/

posted 08-23-2002 04:49 PM         

I'm glad to see people who actually know Hebrew answering this time! The problem with the question of pronouncing the Messiah's name is that in Sacred Name circles the discussion is often more theological than linguistical. When the Sacred Name "fathers" began investigating the pronounciation of the name, they went through several forms before settling with Yahweh and Yahshua. Jehovah, Yehovah, Yahavah, and Yahvah were all tried before settling on Yahweh. (Some settled on Yahvah before Yahweh became the general consensus.) The same with the Messiah's name with Yahashua, Yahoshua, Yahvahshua, Yah-Hoshua, etc. I am told that the charter for the Assembly of Yahweh, Eaton Rapids/Holt, MI, contains many spellings of the name. That charter was made in 1939. It is the second oldest chartered Name group, the oldest being the Assembly of Yahveh Beth Israel of Detroit, MI. In my humble opinion, the reason Yahshua was adopted was that those who did so did not like the Ye- in Yeshua and so wrote it Yahshua, much like the Yahrushalem and Messiyah we see floating around Sacred Name circles from time to time. The son of Nun bore the name Y'hoshua, the 'or e being a representation of the shewa, which has an indistinct sound like the a in ago. Standard gramatical practice with names with a Yod-He-Vav prefix is to drop the He (like Jehoshaphat becoming Joshaphat and Jehoram becoming Joram). Thus Yehoshua should become Yoshua. While this rule is observed in extra-Biblical writings, in the Holy Scriputes the spelling Yeshua is used instead, with an e as in they, although most people, including myself, pronounce it Y'shua with the indistinct Shewa sound. I think if we all knew more Hebrew, this issue, like the V-W issue would soon become a non-issue.

In His Service,

posted 08-23-2002 08:56 PM         

Now for those who don't know. There is a common Yisr'eli and Jewish tradition to not "throw away" or "treat commonly" anything with the Name of the Creator on it. So for example the Dead Sea Scrolls that have been found to date are all documents that places contain The Name of 'Elohim on it. That being said, the documents that are not found in the caves are ones like Hadassah (Ester) which does not contain The Name of The Creator anywhere in the document.

All this to say that out of respect if anyone prints out anything with The Name of The Creator, especially in Hebrew, do not just throw it away. If you have a document(s) that become worn out or such and have The Name on them, then the proper thing to do is to have them dealt with respectly. You can take it to a local Synagogue which will then bury it near a Jewish cemetary. The other option is to bury it somewhere respectfully. According to Jewish halakhah (tradition) this also includes anything that was spoken by 'Eloheynu. I even extend this to things in Hebrew. I fill up a box and then I take it to a local Synagogue that has access to a Jewish cemetary.

The basis of the halakhah from the P'rushim, Tz'dukim, and now the Rabbis point of view is that this out of respect for The One The Name describes. Because I agree with this and many other halakhot I stick to this rule. I would ask nicely that anyone who prints out anything that has the Ancient Hebrew JPG that I created of The Name of the Creator, and also The Name of Mashee'akh that you do not throw it away or allow it to be torn. If you need to find your local Jewish cemetary you can email me at AhabEliYah@yahoo.com and I can make arrangements for you. Out of respect for the Ones whom The Names describes, I thank you.

------------------
Ahab EliYah-El'Askeni
Sight Beyond Sight http://3n1promo.com/sight/

posted 08-23-2002 09:01 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by ThePhysicist:

I do question your form #2. It does not conform to "standard" grammar. A long vowel (qamatz) in an unaccented propretonic syllable would be expected to reduce to a vocal sh'wa. Even more unusual is the dagesh that appears in the hei. Gutturals do not take a dagesh. The dot that that appears in some final hei's is a mappiq, which indicates that the hei is a consonant and not a mater. I do understand that you cannot verify this form.

---

Shabbat Shalom Physicist,

I updated the graphic and I think #2 better reflects what I have heard the Munster text of MattithYahu. I had only seen an attempt at transliterating iinto English what was in the document. Let me know though if my grammer is still off. I am trying to keep from writing things in English because I hate trying to transfer Hebrew to English. (smile) I kept it in the same place, the first page of this forum. Thanks for your analysis.

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Ahab EliYah-El'Askeni
Sight Beyond Sight http://3n1promo.com/sight/

posted 08-24-2002 12:04 PM         

In German, 'ch' is not pronounced 'K' as in 'kite'. It is a very throaty sound which has no equivelant in English. If you pronounce it correctly, it almost sounds like you are trying to choke something up. LoL. What you call guttural I suppose. It causes the english speaker a bit of difficulty learning it, but that is why I was asking if it was the same as Kaf with no dagesh or at least similiar. If so, I guess I'd do all right with it since I have the German 'ch' down.

Also, I wasn't able to hear the second Aramaic prayer because it just wouldn't come up when I clicked on it, so I'm not sure who was native and who was trained. Do we get a clue? Hehe.

posted 08-24-2002 02:37 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jamie:
Shabbat Shalom.

In German, 'ch' is not pronounced 'K' as in 'kite'. It is a very throaty sound which has no equivelant in English. If you pronounce it correctly, it almost sounds like you are trying to choke something up. LoL. What you call guttural I suppose. It causes the english speaker a bit of difficulty learning it, but that is why I was asking if it was the same as Kaf with no dagesh or at least similiar. If so, I guess I'd do all right with it since I have the German 'ch' down.

---

Shabbat Shalom,

That makes sense especially some Y'hudim had went to Germany a number of centuries ago.

quote:

---

Also, I wasn't able to hear the second Aramaic prayer because it just wouldn't come up when I clicked on it, so I'm not sure who was native and who was trained. Do we get a clue? Hehe.

Jamie

---

The second one has to be accessed by the link at the bottom of the page underneath the transliteration. The top link doesn't work. The bottom link is to a zip file that you will load. When you open it there is an execute file inside.

Let me know if you still have problems. If you are able to download that one you will know which one is the native Aramaic speaker. I am in the process of memorizing it in Aramaic.

posted 08-24-2002 09:50 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by kongavnorge:

Yeshua ( Mattityahu 1:21) means "he will save" for. it says, He will save his people from their sins.

---

Greetings Kongavnorge,

I pray all is well with you.

Actually, Yeyshu`a does not mean "He will save". Yoshiya means "He will save". Interestingly enough the Peshitta Aramaic says the following in MattithYahu 1:21.

Hebrew Targum of Peshitta Aramaic Mattai (Matthew) 1:21

"V'hee'[and she-singular] teyleyd [bring forth-Kal fut. 3rd per. sing. fem.] beyn [son] v'attah [and you-masculine singular] tiqraw' [will call] sh'mo [His Name] Yeyshu`a[Yodh-Heh-Waw-Ain or ] kee [for] hoo' [He-singular] Yoshiy`a [He will save] 'et [definative direct object marker not translated] `amo [His people] Meykhatt'oteyhem [free them from their stumblings (i.e. transgressions)]."

The DuTillet Hebrew text of MattithYahu has the same rendering with some slight differences.

DuTillet Hebrew of MattithYahu (Matthew) 1:21

"V'hee'[and she-singular] teyleyd [bring forth-Kal fut. 3rd per. sing. fem.] beyn [son] v'tiqraw' [will call] sh'mo [His Name] Yeyshu`a[Yod-Hay-Waw-Ayin or ] kee [for] hoo' [He-singular] Yoshiy`a [He will save] 'et [definative direct object marker not translated] `amo [His people] m'khol [from all] Khat'atem [their stumblings (i.e. transgressions) 2nd pers. pl. masc.]."

In Hebrew Yod-Kholem Waw-Shin(Khireq Yod)-Yod-Ayin(Pathach) means "He will save." As the Physicist stated earlier "the Hebrew for "He will save" is "yoshiya", yod-waw-shin-yod-ayin. The form is 3ms impf hifil of the root yod-shin-ayin."

Yeshu`a [Yod(Tsere)-Shin-Waw(Shureq)-Ayin(Pathach) or ] means "He shall be a deliverance" i.e. deliverer [Shin -Waw (Shureq) - Ayin (Pathach)] [Yod(Sheva) - Hey(Tsere Yod)- Yod]_ [Yod (Sheva) - Hey (Khireq Yod) - Yod] and in the Hebrew language and culture often stands for Yod-Hey-Waw-Shin-Ayin or . No different than in English language Bill and William are considered to be the same, and are often used interchangeably. If you look in the Hebrew texts of the scripture that Physicist mentioned it shows this.

Lailah tov (Good night),

------------------
Ahab EliYah-El'Askeni
Sight Beyond Sight http://3n1promo.com/sight/

posted 08-25-2002 04:21 AM         

What one can discover is that the right scripture name isn’t always popular and other Goyot religious name isn’t right and what’s popular isn’t always right. Only with this understanding one can identify a great conundrum that Anti-Yahwdim have two faces. One is an open face of uninhibited savage hate; like the SS officers who proudly pushed innocent children and defenseless grandparents through the gas chambers gates at Aushwitz. But there is another malicious face. Those that have an arrogant mental contemptuousness for YAHWEH and YAHWEH’S “Chosen people.” It’s like in WW2 Allied Bomber Command who had extensive documentation of the concentration camps and what was going on there. The allied Commanding officers did nothing to stop the concentration camps slaughter. Despite agonized pleas from Yahwdim leaders, not one single railway track to the camps was bombed, not even to show the carnage to the camps was bombed, not even to slow down the savage carnage. Both of these well-known traits are diametrical against YAHWEH and because of that they are bloodthirsty against the Yahwdim people.

(Proverbs 29:10) “Bloodthirsty men hate a man of integrity and seek to kill the upright.”

Its never been mysterious that the demonic possessed hates YAHWEH’S scripture, as the wicked Gentiles hate HIS Yahwdi people and seek to kill the upright Yahwdim and the other more insidious seeking to kill anything that is of YAHWEH. Both of these well-known anti-YAHWEH traits are been showpiece “Bloodthirsty” Gentiles before and after WW2.

This conventional pattern prototype of name degradation earlier covenant conventions reflecting the pattern previous in TANAK can be compared to symbiotic concepts exhibits in society as a whole. There age old symbiotic pattern reflected in the scripture, one was granting on a distinguish man name by adding or humiliating a disreputable men by degrading his name with a byword.

In Yahadowtyot and Aramaic by adding a single letter to a word as in English adding the plural to a word by just adding “s” to a noun as “book for books,” as change how the aspect of a name as Abram to Abraham. Also to twisting a name to a byword as Yahwdi to Jew also degrade the name.

Gentiles specially those that hate anything that designate YAHWEH use Jew as a byword of the original Yahwdi, for it was predicted by YAHWEH'S word in (Deut. 28:7) "You shall become ... a byword among all Gentiles." There is a spiritual condemn curse for all those demonic possess Gentiles [Heathens] that consult against the Yahwdim (Psalms 83:2-5) use the byword Jew to identify the people of YAHWEH, and themselves as Gentiles [Heathens].

(Proverbs 22:5) “In the paths of the wicked lie thorns and snares, but he who guards his soul stay far from them.”

Let not forget that antinomians who conscientiously collaborate satan are the same who orchestrates the scripture changes (Daniel 7:25) invariably are a enmity with such scripture names, precepts, power and glory of YAHWEH. Gentiles another to byword the original names as predictive in the scripture, they are invented to alter and replace the scripture names as YAHWEH, Yahwshua, Yahadowt, Yahwdim. "YAHWDI" are fulfilling source of the scripture truth.

(Matthew 24: 9) “You will be hated by all Gentiles for My name’s sake.”

When YAHWEH'S good name is lost is seldom regained, when YAHWEH'S character is gone from a life, all is gone and once the richest jewels of life salvation are lost forever. The satanic scam is to disengage YAHWEH’S name from anything or anyone that revile HIS present.

Yahwshua is spelled {Yod, Hey, Vav, Shin, Ayin.} or on rare occasions as {Yod, Hey, Vav, Shin, Vav, Ayin.} In the book of Ezra and Nehemiah, the high priest is name Y’shua {Yod, Shin, Ayin.} the son of Y’zadak, whereas in contemporary books of Haggai and ZacharYah, the same high priest is name Yahwshua {Yod, Hey, Vav, Shin, Ayin.} the son of Yahwzadak {Yod, Hey, Vav, tsadhe, daleth, qoph.}. Why this was brought about, it can only be concluded that in the high priest failure to implore YAHWEH to remove the people’s possessive passion for idolatry. The disgraced in stature and with that HE also degraded his name. Just as with Abram name was enlarge into ‘Abraham’ was also an expression of divine approval, so did this diminution of Yahwshua into Y’shua express divine disapproval. That is the reason why the Talmud degrade scripture Yahoshua to Yehoshua or the Epistle Yahwshua to Yshu, meanwhile Aramaic chritian literature altered the spelling of the name to Y’Shua, Y’Shu, Yeshu or Yesu for a similar reason. The Aramaic speaking antinomian Gentiles like all Goyot Gentiles have a contemptuous hate for everything of YAHWEH, the Goyot Gentiles Muslim god Stronge # 427 ALLAH is from goddess [Alah] Asherah, Alah (1 Samuel 31: 10) “Ashtoreth’s Heathenism {GOYOT. gimel vav, yod, vav, tav.}” also known as Alah Semiramis, Nimrod’s mother and consort of Baal Nimrod.

Neither is it suprising that the Aramaic speaking Christian also call their god ALAH {(1King 11:5) Strong’s # 421. aleph, lamedh, he.} in the middle east.

Aramaic speaking antinomian Gentiles preferred a Goyot Gentile version of the Epistles Yahwdim Yahwshua, likewise the western Gentiles yearning accept mendacious Gentile name Jesus.

Taking a step backward, from Yahwshua is Y’shua and step further backward is Hoshua, because of the evil that had infested the land; YAH chose a phosphate by the name Hoshua I.E. Hosea and told him to marry a prostitute. YAHWEH used this correspondingly to illustrate Israel prostituting itself by worshiping other gods and in a real sense they have step backward to Egypt {Strong # 4693 Mitstrayim.}, heading for Goyot slavery.

Yahwshua is render Yeshua in Aramaic, because most of the Aramaic speaking world had an idolatry culture that worship Semiramis, became known as “Magna Mater” the “Great Mother” and worship as “ALAH” meaning goddess, the Mother Earth goddess. The religious ritual was develop in Babylonian of Baal Nimrod the father god, Baal the son Sun god and his mother Semiramis “a harlot” mated to both.

Since Aramaic are heathen, just like antinomians are adversarial to the scriptural Elohi they don’t recognize YAH as having any form of authority. Consequently in their paganize language pattern, strip the name of it’s original meaningful significance.

Returning to the Hebrew form of the records enhance our understanding of what is the true meaning of His Yahadowtyot name. The value of restoring or returning back to the original Yahadowtyot language and context can be seen more clearly by taking the illustration "YAHWSHUA" designed by the hand of the Heavenly Father. Instead of Jesus, which is a corrupting form of the pagan deity Iesus in order to remove the spiritual Yahadowt significant of His name and which has no relationship what-so-ever to the true name.

Anyon who want to 'witness' to others, take the spiritual power and enlighten the antinomian Gentiles that the name of scripture YAHWEH, HIS messiah, HIS people, HIS religion and HIS language are all scriptually call after HIS name. Those with a soul would really want to know the spiritual truth and those that do not are spiritual dead!

Goyim [Gentiles] stay in their antinomian ignorance.
Gentile: http://www.eliyah.com/forum2/Forum1/HTML/003397.html
Antinomian: http://www.eliyah.com/forum2/Forum1/HTML/003403.html

The people of YAHWEH are call after HIS name.
Yahwdi: http://www.eliyah.com/forum2/Forum1/HTML/003400.html

The real messiah is call after HIS name.
Yahwshua: http://www.eliyah.com/forum2/Forum1/HTML/003392.html

The religion of YAHWEH is call after HIS name.
Yahadowt: http://www.eliyah.com/forum2/Forum1/HTML/003399.html

The scripture Language of YAHWEH is call after HIS name.
Yahadowtyot: http://www.eliyah.com/forum2/Forum1/HTML/002637.html

Shalom

John

posted 08-25-2002 12:09 PM         

quote:

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Originally posted by HaleySara:
Shalom all

I know that this topic has been discussed over and over again, but, here goes...

How and where do we get the Name 'Yahshua' for our Messiah?

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Shalom Jamie,

I just wanted to leave you this because this will be the last I post on this particular discussion.

All in all, what you will believe in this matter will be your decision to make based on prayer. As mentioned before there are a lot of theories out there. Many of which have no text (actual copies of documents), no grammer, nor archeological evidence to support them. That being said a lack of this kind of evidence doesn't mean that anlternative answer doesn't exist, yet at the same time it doesn't mean that grasping at straws is the way to go either.

Next, step becomes, one which already seem to have been doing, and in Hebrew it is called drash or midrash that is to study, search. If one person says this is the truth, have them proove it with some actual evidence and less theory. If they are able to produce documents in their original languages, obtain your own documents and verify it. If they also are untrained in the grammer and the culture, take it with a grain of salt. An argument could be made that when people start making names up with no Hebrew textual, archeological, etc. research that they themselves have done or that they themselves have studied in the key languages, this is not different than those who made faulty translations and substitutions which resulted in the word jesus. If you think about no matter how noble the attempt may be making up names is no different.

There are people who strongly contest their belief and their way is correct, and that anyone not on their train is incorrect. Then you find counter arguments that say completly different things, and they also say they are correct and everyone else is incorrect. So how does a person know what to do, or what to believe? The only way is to ask , Barukh Sh'mo', and allow Him to reveal. This revealation may come from something within you that one day moves you to believe a certain thing you find. This revealation may come from you learning Hebrew and Aramaic and then searching the texts for yourself. They may come from you going to the land of Yisra'el and doing the archeology.

In the HEBREW MattithYahu 10:26 Mashee'akh said:

"L'keyn 'al tir'u meyhem kee 'eyn davar m'kusseh shello' yitgalleh w'nistar shello' yiwada`:"

His statement here says that nothing is covered, that will not be revealed, and hidden that will not be known. That being said, I would suggest that if you are able that you begin to learn Hebrew and Aramaic. Learning Hebrew will make this statement more true as you will be able to read the text for yourself and not rely on translations and peoples interpretations of the translations. (I have noticed a lot of arguement over translations and use of translations and very little use of entire Hebrew texts on various portions of this forum, but that is beyond the point.)

By like token I have seen some people say they don't agree with Masorite vowel pointing yet the same people in most cases can't read unpointed Hebrew to begin with. By like token if people don't agree with Masorite Texts the Shom'roni (Samaritan) texts are open because they were never a part of Masorite cataloging, yet their Hebrew is almost the same. There are also prints, and books of the oldest Sh'moth and Waiyiqra scrolls found at Qumran that are available. I was blessed to get my hands of copies of photos of the Waiyiqra scroll from Qumran which is truly a blessing to have and I thank for allowing me to even have it.

Having a Hebrew text in your hand that you can read for yourself far outweighs trusting people who may or may not know the language and its grammer. I would also suggest that if you are able do research on the current archeology, and if 'Eloheynu gives you the ability travel to the Land of Yisra'el and do further research. These things will make it so that you can determine the answer for yourself. With documents, language learning, and travel being what it is today things are being uncovered by those who are searching.

Doing these things will make it so you won't worry about what people think or say when they come up with varios theories. In my opinion, you are being led by HaMashee'akh to learn Hebrew and if you grasp onto it you will be khacham.

If you email me at AhabEliYah@yahoo.com I can give you a list of texts of the Torah in Ancient Hebrew, HaB'rit HaKhadashah in Hebrew and Aramaic (Qyama' Khadta') and people who can get you the documents. Until then, take everything (including everything I write) with a grain of salt. May bless your search.

'Erev Tov,

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Ahab EliYah-El'Askeni
Sight Beyond Sight http://3n1promo.com/sight/