posted 08-21-2002 10:31 AM         

I know that this topic has been discussed over and over again, but, here goes...

How and where do we get the Name 'Yahshua' for our Messiah? According to Strongs Concordance, the Hebrew rendering is 'Yehoshua.' I've seen no texts, ancient or otherwise, that use the Name 'Yahshua' so I'm real curious as to why we all use this pronunciation/spelling. I used to be settled in my mind over this Name, but not so much anymore. Kinda hard to explain to another person why I use 'Yahshua' over Jesus, when I'm not even sure why.
I don't believe in using 'Jesus' cuz that is most definitely without a doubt not Messiah's Name, just to clear that up. But if I'm going to proclaim the name of Yahshua, I'd better know why. Know what I mean? I'm not asking about other forms of the Name...only this one in particular.
Are we just guessing on this? Changing prefixes around because it sounds prettier to say 'Yah' instead of 'Ye'?

I don't know, but that is not a good enough reason in my eyes.

The Jews and their records say that His Name is 'Yeshua.' Why do we not agree on this? I thought we trusted them for many things, like Feast days, Sabbath, etc, what's different here?

Well, if anyone can help me settle this matter in my mind, then I would appreciate it. I know it's been rehashed over and over, but until I'm 100% sure, it doesn't fly with me

And I do hope that I'm not opening up a can of contention

posted 08-21-2002 12:17 PM         

We all don't use "Yahshua". I consistently use "Yeshua" because that form and the longer form "Y'hoshua" are the only names corresponding to Messiah's name that are found in the Tanakh.

posted 08-21-2002 12:59 PM         

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In search of Clemency
William

posted 08-21-2002 01:31 PM         

William says:

I do not like or agree with the Yeshua spelling because the scholars try and equate Jesus to this form! I am sure someone on this forum will give you the justification of this name! However, what I have found is these same people that use Yeshua, have the same doctrine of faith, or believe as the ones using Jesus, so that is the second reason I don’t like to use that name!

Well, "Yeshua", yod-shin-waw-ayin is the form of the name used in Ezra and Nehemiah. [Editted to remove wording that William finds offensive] I note that William has stated both theological views and his likes and dislikes for discussing the transliteration of Messiah's name. He has not given a Hebrew spelling.

And:

If we can agree on that, then if we replace the “J” in Joshua with YaH, we are left with YaHoshua! That’s my story and I’m sticking to it!

"J" "replaces", i.e. transliterates the Hebrew letter yod because at the time that the letter "j" was added to the English alphabet it was pronounced like "y". The pronunciation changed later. "Yah" is spelled yod-hei.

ThePhysicist

Ediited to comply with William's request.

posted 08-21-2002 01:54 PM         

I used to use the form "Yahshua" or "Yahushua" but like you and like Physicist and many others, I cannot find the justification for it. I currently use "Y'Shua" as I understand the Aramaic Peshitta renders it so. Also as it is shown in Strongs and elswhere as pointed out above, the name for "Joshua benNun" was really "Yehoshua" so sometimes I may use this form.

We have been discussing this in our local congregation in depth and trying to figure out where the rendering "Yahshua" came from and it seems to have begun early in the 20th century by a man who's name I forget.

In any case, since there are no ancient writings with Messiah's name, we should be careful not to invent a name just because "it sounds prettier" as you have well noted.

posted 08-21-2002 03:12 PM         

How and where do we get the Name 'Yahshua' for our Messiah?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

.....................Shalom Jamie ! ...I'm holding Mariam & Yahseph personally responsible ! ( hehehehe )

...The Century Bible, Volume 1, Pages 90-91, by Adeney and Bennett, tells us:

..Likewise, the Name of Yahweh's Son, 'YAHSHUA' (Yahweh is Salvation), has been substituted by YESHUA, IESOUS, IESUS, JESUS, and EAZEUS (healing Zeus). Webster's Dictionary says that Zeus is the sky god, and is also known as Deus (Latin), Dio (Italian), Dios (Spanish), Dayus (Sanskrit), and Zeus Soter meaning Zeus the Savior.

The substitution of the Names of Yahweh and Yahshua, by the names of pagan gods, has brought immeasurable harm. Such names as Lord, God, Jesus, and Christ in no way represent the meaning of the NAME revealed by Yahweh our Heavenly Father to Mosheh, and to the ancient Hebrews. By employing these names, the people unknowingly turn the worship of Yahweh into that of gods, and actually ascribe the loving and merciful characteristics of the Father of Israyl, to the pagan gods! (Hosheyah 2:8).

According to the inspired prophecies, the Messiah's Name was to MEAN: Yahweh is Salvation; which is exactly what the Name Yahshua means! In The Book of Yahweh, the Name Yahshua, the True Name of Yahweh's only begotten Son, and our High Priest, Messiah, Redeemer, Ruler, and King, has been restored in the Scriptures. This was of utmost importance, for the Scriptures openly proclaim there is only ONE NAME given on earth, through which all men may achieve salvation (Acts 4:10-12), and that NAME is 'Yahshua'-- 'Yahweh is Salvation!' Any name, other than the correct Name, will not suffice.

The Holy Scriptures proclaim over and over, that YAHWEH Himself is our Savior (Psalm 27:1, Isayah 43:11).

Our Messiah Himself stated His mission was to proclaim WHO our Savior is--YAHWEH! (Yahchanan (John) Chapter 17). Obviously, our Messiah's very Name would state Who our Savior is; and the Name of our Messiah makes this distinction:'Yahweh is Salvation', or 'YAHWEH IS OUR SAVIOR'. That Name is YAHSHUA. (Gesenius' Hebrew Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament, pp. 339).

The world, for the most part, has rejected this Name (Yahshua), and has replaced it with the name YESHUA, or JESUS. However, even the scholars of the Christian Church openly admit that these FALSE NAMES (Yeshua, Jesus) replaced the True Name (Yahshua) in the Scriptures.

Louis Hartman, Encyclopedic Dictionary of the Bible, pp. 1141, openly admits this fact in his writings:

'JESUA--In the last few centuries before Christ, the personal name YOSUA (Yahshua) was pronounced and written as YESUA (Yeshua).

New Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol 7., pp. 970:

Jesus (The Name): In English, the name Jesus is a transliteration of the Latin for, 'Iesus', which represents the Greek form 'Iesous', of the Hebrew name 'Yesua (Yeshua). The latter is a LATE FORM, by VOWEL DISSIMILATION, of the Name Yosua (Yahshua).

With the subtle use of 'vowel dissimulation', the True Name of the Messiah, Yahshua. Was replaced with the name that HID Yahweh's Name--YESHUA, which means 'He will save'. Then, the Greeks wrote a literal transliteration of the Hebrew word 'Yeshua' (Iesous): the Latins Romans) wrote a literal transliteration of the Greek word 'Iesous' (Iesus); then theEnglish wrote a literal transliteration of the Latin word 'Iesus' (Jesus). All of these names are VOID of the power of
Yahweh's Name!

With the use of 'vowel dissimulation,' only a slight change occurs, but this slight change REMOVES the Name of Yahweh, effectively shutting off SALVATION FROM YAHWEH to those who are deceived into using the names of Yeshua and Jesus!

Hope this is helpful !

Shalom !
Lavi Chagyah

posted 08-21-2002 03:26 PM         

Tell me Physi, just how do you judge that the Hebrew spelling is of no importance to me? I am sure glad you won’t be my judge on that Day!

Zechariah 3:1 And he shewed me YaHoshua the high priest standing before the angel of YaHVeH, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. 2 And YaHVeH said unto Satan, YaHVeH rebuke thee, O Satan; even YaHVeH that hath chosen Yahrushalaim rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire? 3 Now YaHoshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel. 4 And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment. 5 And I said, Let them set a fair diadem upon his head. So they set a fair diadem upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of YaHVeH stood by. 6 And the angel of YaHVeH protested unto YaHoshua, saying, 7 Thus saith YaHVeH of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by. 8 Hear now, O YaHoshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH. 9 For behold the stone that I have laid before YaHoshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith YaHVeH of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day. 10 In that day, saith YaHVeH of hosts, shall ye call every man his neighbour under the vine and under the fig tree.

Jamie, when reading the above passage, there are several clues that this is speaking of our Messiah who went through Hades! We see Satan being the accuser of the brethren, and where is he standing at this time? We also will notice that this Yahoshua is referred to as the, “BRANCH”! We see the call for walking in all the Ways of YHVH. We also read of the Stone that was set before Him. This is none other than the Word. We also notice that the iniquity is removed from the land in one Day. We also read how Messiah discourses on who is one’s neighbor and this is all under the headship of Him being the vine! We can also agree that Yahoshua is our high priest! We also see that the filthy garments could relate to the sins that He bore, however, they were removed for they had no right being draped on Him! We also see that Messiah is the judge or measuring stick over His Father’s house! Also mentioned are the seven eyes or spirits where with one must learn to walk in harmony!

Jamie, I have searched other writings as well, however this seems to be one of the only areas missed by those who would like to hide Messiah’s real name! Do with it as you will, but as for me and my house, His name is Yahoshua and His Father’s name is YaHVeH!

Physi, I am telling you unequivocally, that the spelling of the Messiah’s name is important to me! Having said that, I suppose that to ask for a retraction from you, an apology, or even just an edit on your last post, so that your words would not try and incriminate me, would be too much to ask?? Remember law nine!

Thanks Lavi for that detailed post! Just curious though, how would you spell the name of Joshua as found in Zec.3:3? Yahshua or Yahoshua?

posted 08-21-2002 04:23 PM         

I do apologize for being harsh sounding. However by your own words you do not like "Yeshua" because:

1) It can justfy the name "Jesus"
2) You don't like the doctrine held by people who use this name.

IMHO neither of these points belongs in a discussion of how to either pronounce or spell the Messiah's name. The issue should be settled by going to the Hebrew text and simply reading off the letters. Likewise, a statement like: "I am of the understanding that the “J” has replaced the abbreviated form of God’s name, YaH! If we can agree on that, then if we replace the “J” in Joshua with YaH, we are left with YaHoshua! That’s my story and I’m sticking to it!" does not leave the impression that you care to hear any other input.

I do repeat my apology for the harshness and wish you well in your search for more understanding about Messiah's name.

posted 08-21-2002 04:32 PM         

“….Honor to whom honor is due. From the information I could gather, I feel John Briggs and Paul Penn should be given the honor of having started people to think on the Name, Yahshua. Elder Wm. (Bill) Bishop FIRST, together with John Briggs and Paul Penn, later joined by Squire LaRue Cessna, should be given the honor of being FIRST to EVANGELIZE in the NAME “YAHSHUA” in the USA.”

If you believe that the Savior was given the same name as the son of Nun, then
ThePhysicist is absolutely correct in his assessment.

posted 08-21-2002 04:47 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yasharon:
With regard to the origin of the name Yahshua and its first use, I have found an article from "“The World Today Analyzed” 1975. - Subject: A Brief History of the Name Movement in America by: L.D. Snow.

“….Honor to whom honor is due. From the information I could gather, I feel John Briggs and Paul Penn should be given the honor of having started people to think on the Name, Yahshua. Elder Wm. (Bill) Bishop FIRST, together with John Briggs and Paul Penn, later joined by Squire LaRue Cessna, should be given the honor of being FIRST to EVANGELIZE in the NAME “YAHSHUA” in the USA.”

If you believe that the Savior was given the same name as the son of Nun, then
ThePhysicist is absolutely correct in his assessment.

In His Service,
Yasharon

---

Yes, Briggs and Penn.... that's who I was thinking of but there is one other person's name who came up who Penn may have gotten some of the "Yahshua" info from. I am pretty sure he preceded Penn and company and I just can't think of his name but I will. Nothing much was known about the guy, only that he came up with "Yahshua" and afterwards Penn and company followed suit so I am not so sure they should get the full credit.

posted 08-21-2002 05:08 PM         

The name of the son of Nun is usually spelled yod-hei-waw-shin-ayin and less frequently as yod-hei-waw-shin-waw-ayin. In Neh 8:17 the name of the son of Nun is spelled yod-shin-waw-ayin and vocalized as "Yeshua". (My thanks to Shlomo for pointing out this occurrence). Contrary to what is frequently stated, "Yeshua" does not mean "He will save". The Hebrew for "He will save" is "yoshiya", yod-waw-shin-yod-ayin. The form is 3ms impf hifil of the root yod-shin-ayin. For those who want references, look at BDB pg 446.

posted 08-21-2002 05:08 PM         

One example of this is that Hebrew words in most cases, but not all, are stressed on the last syllable. So if a person was not stressing the correct syllable they would be pronouncing the word wrong in Hebrew. The other problem is that Ayin is a gutteral which doesn't have an English equivalent. Writing in English would never convey to a non-Hebrew speaker how to pronounce it, as it is now nor how it was in ancient times. For example in the name Ya`aqov I am attempting by usng ` to let you know that this is how I write Ayin but without actually saying it so you can hear it with no Hebrew training you most likely wounld't pronounce it correctly. No different then like l'cha (Lamed-Chaf) ask a non-Hebrew speaker to pronounce it based on how I wrote it, and then ask a native born speaker to pronounce it. You would get two different pronounciations. The reason is when Kaf has no dagesh lene in it English doesn't have an aproximate sound. Just like Khet, there is no aproximate in English so writing it is an attempt at putting it into words, which is why it is transliterated by an H with a dot under it.

This is especially important since The Name of Mashee'akh was given by a Mal'ak of The Creator, , may His Name be praised. So if a person writes the Name of either The Creator or Mashee'akh, even if they were verbally saying according to HEBREW pronunciation they could write in English for someone who doesn't know Hebrew and that person could easily say it wrong. That is why I only write the Name of the Creator as and Mashee'akh's Name as , , , or . Even with Yod-Shin-Waw-Ayin He is all these things, so for me there is more proof showing Yod-Shin-Waw-Ayin, yet I know that , , or speak of Him.

All that being said the following list shows what I have seen from various Hebrew and Aramaic Texts.

Side Note: Graphic edited to reflect better Hebrew grammer.

# 1 and # 5 is a variance of the Name of Y'hoshu`a ben-Nun (Joshua son of Nun). This I have seen in none of the various versions of the messages, letters, documents, etc. of any of the HaB'rit HaKhadashah (New Testament). Yet, it is known from various literature of the time that Yod-Shin-Waw-Ayin was a post-exilic form of .

# 2 from what I have heard shows up in the Munster version of MatthithYahu (Matthew), but since I don't yet have a copy of it I can't verify this. The other question would be one of how this fits grammer wise.

# 3 (Hebrew) and # 5 (Estrangela Aramaic script) is what shows up in the DuTillet Hebrew version of MattithYahu, the Shem Tov Hebrew Matthew, the Peshitta Aramaic Qyama' Khadta' (New Testament) from Eastern Syria, The N'storian or Ya`aqovi version of Qyama' Khadta' (New Testament) also Eastern Syria I think, and the Old Syriac version.

My suggestion is two fold. First, you may want to learn some Hebrew and Aramaic and then from there start acquiring some of these documents, UNTRANSLATED in their original language of penning. Then you can make the decision for yourself on who or what you believe. As long as you know what the Name is not, then that is half the battle.

I would say that anything outside of what the documents, or any like them, that I listed shows would be speculation and theory. That is unless someones else has a document, UNTRANSLATED in the language it was penned in that shows something different. The foundation here is actual DOCUMENTED/ARCHEOLOGICAL proof, not just theory. If someone claims that the pronunciation is this or that, ask them to actually point it out in an UNTRANSLATED TEXT. Otherwise it would be best to wait until the `Olam Haba (World to Come) and allow Mashee'akh to say His Name for Himself. Until then all the hard evidence from the time period shows up in the list I gave.

If need be I can send you copies of most of the listed documents. I know people and both Israel and Syria that can get them.

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Ahab EliYah-El'Askeni
Sight Beyond Sight http://3n1promo.com/sight/