posted 08-26-2002 09:08 AM         

kongavnorge says:

Yeshua ( Mattityahu 1:21) means "he will save" for. it says, He will save his people from their sins. Moshe (Numbers 13:16) called Hoshea ben-Nun Y'hoshua which means "Yah, his help" The two names are neither spelled the same nor do the mean the same. Romans 3:1-2 explain that the oracles (spoken word) of Elohim were given to the Jews. Thus if anyone shoud know how a name in the lashon ha-kadosh should be pronounced, it ought to be a Jew.

Yes, I agree that if anybody knows how to speak Lashon HaQodesh it is a Jew. Therefore, I quote Matt 1:21 from a modern Hebrew translation made by the Israeli Bible Society:

Hi yoledet ben v'atah tiqra sh'mo Yeshua, ki hu yoshiya et amo mekhatoteytem.

That is:

She bears a son and you will call His name Yeshua, because He yoshiya His people from their sins.

The root yod-shin-ayin only appears in the nifal and hifil binyamim. "Yoshiya" is exactly the form you expect for a 3ms imperfect (future in Israeli Hebrew) hifil. [Please see a grammar book for the paradigm for peh-yod verbs in the hifil.] Also, "Hoshea" looks like an alternate spelling for a 3ms perfect hifil from the same root. And where do I obtain that information? It is from "A History of the Hebrew Language" by E. Y. Kutscher, an Israeli Hebrew scholar. The reference is on page 62 under "Personal Names Presevering Old Grammatical Forms".

BTW, the common Hebrew verb for "help" is "azar", ayin-zayin-reish. From this we get the name "Azaryah" or "Azaryahu", i.e. "Azariah", which means YHWH has helped.

ThePhysicist

Whoops! I see Ahab has already answered, but since two witnesses can confirm a thing then perhaps the post was not for nought.

posted 08-26-2002 07:13 PM         

I have a question. If we can write the Heavenly Father's name
without vowels in english as "YHWH" for example, how would
we write the Saviors Name without vowels in english?
The question is open to anyone.

In Yahoshua the Messiah's Love
-T

posted 08-27-2002 10:29 AM         

**Shalom Ahab, that is fair enough! You have been a wonderful help to me in my search for more Truth**

All in all, what you will believe in this matter will be your decision to make based on prayer. As mentioned before there are a lot of theories out there. Many of which have no text (actual copies of documents), no grammer, nor archeological evidence to support them. That being said a lack of this kind of evidence doesn't mean that anlternative answer doesn't exist, yet at the same time it doesn't mean that grasping at straws is the way to go either.

**I fully agree with you here and that is why I brought the subject of HaMashee'akh's Name up. Or the Name that I have been using for a while now, 'Yahshua.' I'm understanding now how in depth this matter really is and the complications that surround it, yet, I'm not giving up and will continue to seek**

Next, step becomes, one which already seem to have been doing, and in Hebrew it is called drash or midrash that is to study, search. If one person says this is the truth, have them proove it with some actual evidence and less theory. If they are able to produce documents in their original languages, obtain your own documents and verify it. If they also are untrained in the grammer and the culture, take it with a grain of salt. An argument could be made that when people start making names up with no Hebrew textual, archeological, etc. research that they themselves have done or that they themselves have studied in the key languages, this is not different than those who made faulty translations and substitutions which resulted in the word jesus. If you think about no matter how noble the attempt may be making up names is no different.

**That is very true as well**

There are people who strongly contest their belief and their way is correct, and that anyone not on their train is incorrect. Then you find counter arguments that say completly different things, and they also say they are correct and everyone else is incorrect. So how does a person know what to do, or what to believe? The only way is to ask , Barukh Hu' Sheym, and allow Him to reveal. This revealation may come from something within you that one day moves you to believe a certain thing you find. This revealation may come from you learning Hebrew and Aramaic and then searching the texts for yourself. They may come from you going to the land of Yisra'el and doing the archeology.

**Oh, if only I could be that blessed to receive such a revelation and be able to visit Yisra'el. That would be awesome indeed. Perhaps one day, I'll be able to**

In the HEBREW MattithYahu 10:26 Mashee'akh said:

"L'keyn 'al tir'u meyhem kee 'eyn davar m'kusseh shello' yitgalleh w'nistar shello' yiwada`:"

His statement here says that nothing is covered, that will not be revealed, and hidden that will not be known. That being said, I would suggest that if you are able that you begin to learn Hebrew and Aramaic. Learning Hebrew will make this statement more true as you will be able to read the text for yourself and not rely on translations and peoples interpretations of the translations. (I have noticed a lot of arguement over translations and use of translations and very little use of entire Hebrew texts on various portions of this forum, but that is beyond the point.)

By like token I have seen some people say they don't agree with Masorite vowel pointing yet the same people in most cases can't read unpointed Hebrew to begin with. By like token if people don't agree with Masorite Texts the Shom'roni (Samaritan) texts are open because they were never a part of Masorite cataloging, yet their Hebrew is almost the same. There are also prints, and books of the oldest Sh'moth and Waiyiqra scrolls found at Qumran that are available. I was blessed to get my hands of copies of photos of the Waiyiqra scroll from Qumran which is truly a blessing to have and I thank for allowing me to even have it.

Having a Hebrew text in your hand that you can read for yourself far outweighs trusting people who may or may not know the language and its grammer. I would also suggest that if you are able do research on the current archeology, and if 'Eloheynu gives you the ability travel to the Land of Yisra'el and do further research. These things will make it so that you can determine the answer for yourself. With documents, language learning, and travel being what it is today things are being uncovered by those who are searching.

Doing these things will make it so you won't worry about what people think or say when they come up with varios theories. In my opinion, you are being led by HaMashee'akh to learn Hebrew and if you grasp onto it you will be khacham.

**About two weeks ago, I began my study of the Hebrew language and will try to learn as much as I can without going to class...which may not be much, but that is all I can do at this time. I have a few websites created by Hebrew speakers that help you pronounce words and letters correctly and I think that is extremely important, even before learning vocabulary. Your encouragement does help me to keep trying and not give up**

If you email me at AhabEliYah@yahoo.com I can give you a list of texts of the Torah in Ancient Hebrew, HaB'rit HaKhadashah in Hebrew and Aramaic (Qyama' Khadta') and people who can get you the documents. Until then, take everything (including everything I write) with a grain of salt. May bless your search.

'Erev Tov,

[/B][/QUOTE]

**I'll be e mailing you shortly, thank you again and may YHWH bless you; especially in your search for Truth **

Shalom,
Jamie

posted 08-29-2002 08:41 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tamal Eddy:
I have a question. If we can write the Heavenly Father's name
without vowels in english as "YHWH" for example, how would
we write the Saviors Name without vowels in english?
The question is open to anyone.

In Yahoshua the Messiah's Love
-T

---

Greetings Tamal,

I will base my response on the varioius documents in Hebrew and Aramaic that I have myself read with the two styles of The Name of Mashee'akh that I have seen. As I mentioned before I am only basing this off of actual Hebrew text, Aramaic text, and archeological information that I have researched.

For Yod-Shin-Waw-Ayin, which shows up in about 99% of the Ancient Hebrew texts, and Ancient Aramaic texts (which shows up as ) that I have personally read that have archeological validity, the best way to write with no vowels would be YSHW`. The reasoning behind this is Y-Yod, SH-Shin, W-Waw, and `-Ayin.

For Yod-Hay-Waw-Shin-Ayin, which I have heard shows up spelled in this way only in the Munster copy of what is believed to be an ancient Hebrew Matthew, the best way to write with no vowels would be YHWSH`. The reasoning behind this is Y-Yod, H-Hay, W-Waw, SH-Shin, and `-Ayin.

Now the reason for the Ayin being represented by ` is because Ayin is a gutteral which has no English equavalent. Even though the vowel Pathach is attached with it in this particular case writing it as an "A" for example would be misleading since an English speaker would think that "A" alone could vocally describe it. Due to this a person who has never heard Hebrew pronounced would at least get the picture that ` is Ayin. I normally denote Aleph by ' so that is how I make the differnciation. The character I am using for Ayin is right next to the 1 on your keyboard, and above the tab key.

According to the standard method of transliterating of Hebrew and Aramaic Ayin is written with an approstrify facing right is used. When transliterating Aleph an appostrify facing left is used.

------------------
Ahab EliYah-El'Askeni
Sight Beyond Sight http://3n1promo.com/sight/

posted 09-08-2002 01:13 PM         

YESHUA (YUD-SHIN-VAV-AYIN)
(Hebrew: Salvation)
is the spelling in:

DuTillet, Munster and Shem Tob Hebrew Matthew.
The Old Syriac Aramaic Gospels, the Peshitta Aramaic NT
and Crawford Aramaic Revelation.

YAHUSHUA (YUD-HEY-VAV-SHIN-AYIN)
(Hebrew: Yah saves)
is the spelling in:

Munster Hebrew Hebrews.

posted 09-08-2002 03:04 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by James Trimm:
All,

YESHUA (YUD-SHIN-VAV-AYIN)
(Hebrew: Salvation)
is the spelling in:

DuTillet, Munster and Shem Tob Hebrew Matthew.
The Old Syriac Aramaic Gospels, the Peshitta Aramaic NT
and Crawford Aramaic Revelation.

YAHUSHUA (YUD-HEY-VAV-SHIN-AYIN)
(Hebrew: Yah saves)
is the spelling in:

Munster Hebrew Hebrews.

Trimm

---

Shanah Tovah Dr. Trimm,

I have been trying to acquire a copy of the Munster Hebrew Hebrews, do you happen to sell a Herbew copy of it?

L'hitra'ot,