posted 04-14-2002 05:01 PM            

I personally have always kept a cleanshaven face for most of my life i will do whatever Yahweh Requires though.

I have never had anybody prove to me from the scriptures one way or the other i have called some sacred name groups and gotten mixed answers.

My bible which is a king james version states the following concerning the matter.
Leviticus 19:27 " ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard."
The new english bible n.e.b. version says not to (shave the edges of your beard)

I have seen messianics who believe one way and have plenty of knowledge concerning Yahweh and Yahshua and others who believe the other way concerning the issue who also have plenty of knowledge concerning Yahweh and Yahshua.

I am not going to argue it one way or the other but am looking for scriptural helps concerning the matter or articles or just plain scripture so i a can get to the bottom of this.

I have not shaved for months because i believe it would be better to be safe than sorry.

Is this something specific in the law i only see reference made in leviticus.

Did joseph have to shave because he was in egyptian captivity or was it of his own accord?

What about nazarenes after they cut the hair and offdered it did they start regrowing?

posted 04-14-2002 08:15 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by ninjalion:
I have not shaved for months because i believe it would be better to be safe than sorry.

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Good attitude.

I had another young Daniel write to me with the same question just less than one year ago. Following was my response to that young Daniel for which he was very appreciative (in fact, he is growing MIGHTILY in The True Faith!).

"Ye shall not round the corners of your heads ..."

Simply put -- don't shave your head or wear your hair in a bowl or rounded cut style that seems to be growing in popularity again. These are ancient vestiges of sun worship with the making of a circle on the top of your body/head.

"... neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard."

Simply put -- a beard should grow out as YahVeh designed it to grow. It is not to be a goatee, fu manchu, or the ever popular "Bible-school" model shaved to model the contour of the face (this also happens to be the style that sodomites who wear beards favor -- ?coincidence?). Just let the beard grow.

These commands are repeated in Leviticus 21:5-6 and are DIRECTLY linked to HOLINESS!

I have always taught that Scripture instructs how a beard is to be grown if you grow a beard. You know, don't grow a beard like the world does if you grow a beard. Don't get caught up in "styles" of the world, etc.

I have friends who teach that Scripture instructs that all males able are to grow a beard. The man who YahVeh raised up almost a century ago to start the ministry to which I am now underShepherd taught the same. I know of many others with similar understandings. Some orthodox jewish sects such as hasidics also teach this.

Some people don't like beards -- seeing or wearing them. Three years ago the thought came to me to shave mine off since even some people in our congregation don't like beards. As I only STARTED to think of this I heard the voice of YahVeh as strong and determined as I have ever heard ...

"NO!"

I only STARTED to reason my thoughts unto YahVeh about some people not liking it and received the same one word answer just as strong. No explanation was given me. However, ministry opportunities suddenly began to flourish.

People ask me variously, "Are you a rabbi? Jewish? Amish? Mennonite? Muslim?"

No, no, no, no and no.

"Well then, what are you?"

GLAD YOU ASKED! Then I get to share The Faith BY INVITATION! How about THAT!

Although I wear a beard, and YahVeh commanded me NOT to shave it off, I just took it as personal instruction. I have continued to teach that Scripture instructs how a beard is to be grown if you grow a beard.

This morning as I researched The Scriptures to give answer to your question I began to see things in a different way than I had seen before (see John 8:31-32 / II Peter 3:18).

Read II Samuel 10. The king of Ammon died who had "shown kindness" to King David (verse 2). David sent some of his servants to comfort the son now newly made king. The wretched son who was newly made king shaved off half the beard of each man (verse 4) and "the men were greatly ashamed" (verse 5).

Did David tell them, "Shave off that silly looking half beard"? NO! He didn't even let them return home. He told them to WAIT "until your beards be grown, and then return" (vs. 5).

In Isaiah 15 shame is spoken of people with "all their heads shall be baldness, and every beard cut off". This beard thing is looking more and more important, eh?

Jeremiah 9:25-26 speaks of punishment to ALL circumcised along with uncircumcised. It mentions Judah AND its various geographic enemies. It then reads in KJV "and all that are in the utmost corners". HOWEVER, the Hebrew literally reads "and all having the corners of their heads polled" which relates right back to Leviticus 19 and 21.

Now, why would the circumcised be judged along with the uncircumcised? The end of verse 26 gives the reason, "... all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in the heart"! Jeremiah was speaking to a backslid and wicked people. The PHYSICAL circumcision was of no value without the SPIRITUAL. However, it is tied to PHYSICAL disobedience as well with those making their heads cornered off in violation of Torah even though they were circumcised in the flesh.

It looks to me like MEN ARE SUPPOSED TO WEAR BEARDS AS MUCH AS THEY ARE ABLE!

Why is it that we just can't seem to let the creation that we are be that which The Creator YahVeh gave us to be? Do we think He erred? Do we know better?

In the creation account of Genesis 1 at the very end it is written, "The Almighty saw every thing that He had made, and, behold, IT WAS VERY GOOD!" David recorded "I will praise Thee; FOR I AM FEARFULLY AND WONDERFULLY MADE: marvellous are Thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well." Did you notice any exception or exclusion about the beard He put for man to grow not being VERY GOOD or FEARFULLY AND WONDERFULLY MADE?

Ahava b' YahShua
(Love in The SAVIOUR)

posted 04-14-2002 08:33 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by ninjalion:
Is this something specific in the law i only see reference made in leviticus.

Did joseph have to shave because he was in egyptian captivity or was it of his own accord?

What about nazarenes after they cut the hair and offdered it did they start regrowing?

---

Just prior to the question a year ago by another young Daniel, I received an article on beards that was unattributed. (It is apparent that The Ruach is working in this area!) That article addresses your three questions and it follows.

FWD: Beards are cool man

Beards and Baldness
It is a belief among many brethren in the faith that men should wear beards as did most Israelites throughout history. However, it is not considered mandatory to do so. The purpose of this study is to inform you of what the scriptures say concerning beards and to show that it is a law of Yahweh which should be obeyed.

Let's begin by looking at the actual commandment in Lev. 19:26-28; "Ye shall not eat any thing with the blood: neither shall ye use enchantment, nor observe times. Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard. Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am Yahweh."

Notice that we continue to obey verses 26 and 28 even today. The question is, do we have to obey verse 27? As we read in Lev. 19:1,2, these commandments are for the children of Israel, of whom we are through Messiah. In verse 27 the KJV uses two words which do not help in clearly understanding this verse, "mar" and "corners". Unless you have a square head and a square beard you cannot have "corners". The Hebrew for "corners" is "peah" which means the "region or extremity" according to Strong's Concordance. A word study of such verses as Ex.36:25; Job 18:14,15; Nu.24:17; Ezek.41:12; and Lev.19:9 will reveal the correct meaning to be "border" or "the outline that forms the image". Referring to the above references; the peah or border of a building is its' walls; of the sea, its' coastline; of a country such as Moab, its' borders; of a field, its' borders; of the beard, the outline which forms the image. In other words, the hairline along the cheeks, lower neck, below the lower lip, etc. Goatees, mutton chops, Hitler moustaches and totally shaven faces are all forbidden by Yahweh. Incidentally, the Jewish practice of not cutting the sideburns is based on an erroneous understanding of this scripture.

The word "mar" in Hebrew is "shachath" which means to decay or ruin. It was also translated "destroy, perish, cast off, corrupt and utterly waste". So what this commandment is really saying is, "Do not utterly destroy the borders of your beard." The only way to utterly destroy the beard is to remove the hair from your face. The most common way is by shaving which totally ruins and mars the beard. It creates baldness upon your skin and, as we will see later, baldness is associated with shame and defilement throughout scripture. Trimming the length of the beard is permitted because it does not create baldness. Instead, it adds to a man's handsomeness.

To "round the corners of your head" would mean to create baldness around one's head, as certain people do, leaving only a cicular patch of hair on top.

Lev.19:27 is among a long list of commandments extending to Lev.20:21. Verses 22-26 teach us to be sanctified from the unbelieving people around us. They tattoo their bodies, stretch their necks with metal rings, shave their heads bald or carve words and designs in their hair. This shows a total lack of reverence for their bodies. How much more should we reverence our bodies which are the temple of the Holy Spirit.

A similar commandment is found in Lev.21:1-6. These verses pertain to the priests, Aaron and his sons. Believers today are said to be priests as well, so this commandment could spiritually apply to us. But even if it doesn't we can see Yahweh's feelings concerning creating baldness on ones head. Not only would the priest defile or profane himself but he would also profane the name of Yahweh (vs 6). It was holiness to a priest to remain unshaven.

Only something holy can be profaned or defiled. Ezekiel talks about profaning the sanctuary and the Sabbath day. Both are holy and both can be defiled. Believers are also holy; in fact, we are a holy priesthood and our bodies are holy temples. If we eat pork we defile the temple of the Holy Spirit (Lev 11:44). If we create baldness on our head or face we defile the temple of Yahweh.

Lev.21:16-23 tells us about the seed of Aaron that are blemished. Whenever something happens to a priest that alters the image that he was created with, he becomes blemished. That is why Yahweh told them not to create baldness on their head or face. They could not serve as priests until they were healed again.

Most commentators apply the last chapters of Ezekiel to the millennial kingdom. Notice in Ezek.44:20 the priests are not permitted to shave but they are permitted to cut their hair so it doesn't grow too long. Yahweh does not want men's head hair to be too long and He doesn't want it or the beard to appear sloppy or unkempt. The Apostle Paul, in I Cor.11, says it is a shame for a man to have long hair. It was also a shame for a man to be bald or beardless. II Sam.10:4,5 recounts the time when King David's men had half their beards shaved off by their enemies causing great shame. But notice what David said to do. He didn't tell them to shave off the other half and return to Jerusalem. He told them to wait in Jericho until their beards grew back and then return.

Some people try to use Gen.41:14 to prove that men could shave if they wanted to. The most logical way to understand this verse is that the Egyptians made Joseph shave when he met Pharaoh just as they made him change his clothing. If a man is kept in a dungeon for two years and then is brought quickly out to meet Pharaoh, he is not going to put on his best clothing because he undoubtedly doesn't have a change of good clothing. The Egyptians would have given him new clothes and they would have required him to clean up and shave. Almost all Egyptians had shaven heads and no beards.

Acts 18:18 and 21;23-26 show that Paul shaved his head because he had taken a Nazarite vow which is spoken of in Nu. 6:1,13,18. Once the vow was fulfilled Paul's head was shaved and his hair burnt for a peace offering. Samson was under a Nazarite vow as well, through which his long hair gave him great strength until it was shaved off by Delilah. There were only three reasons Yahweh allowed for shaving ones head: 1) A Nazarite vow 2) Leprosy or infection on the head 3) death of a relative. Shaving for any other reason, including to make oneself more attractive, would defile the person and profane Yahweh's name.

Yahweh spoke two interesting prophesies concerning baldness. In Is.3:16,17,24 baldness is spoken of as something negative and undesirable that Yahweh will bring upon the daughters of Zion because of their haughty attitude. Amos 8:9,10 shows that in the Day of Yahweh, He will cause baldness upon every head; in other words, shame and mourning.

Many people have been misled by todays society into believing that a well shaved, smooth face is desirable and permissible when, in reality, it is against the law of Yahweh and defiles our temple. Yahweh created men to have beards and then commanded men to not destroy their beards. He desires men to maintain the same image that He created them with. He does not want us to look like Egyptians, Romans, Hindus, or the other nations around us.

Even Yahshua the Messiah, who is our ultimate example, had a beard (Is.50:6). In their attempt to disrespect and shame Yahshua, his persecutors tore out the hair from his beard.

There are certain commandments in the Old Testament which we no longer observe because they have been fulfilled in some way. However, concerning beards and baldness, there are no fulfillments. If we don't have to obey these commandments anymore, then when and why did they cease?

Some brethren believe the law against shaving the beard was a cultural requirement for Israel alone. If that be the case, we could say the same for all the feast days and many other laws. The fact that Yahweh created men with beards, as a natural part of their body, shows that they are desired by Yahweh for all men, not just for Israelites. Since Galations 6:16 calls believers "the Israel of Yahweh", then we should be subject to the laws of Yahweh given to Israel.

Others will say that not all men can grow beards, therefore they don't have to either. Not all believers can mark the beginning of Sabbath by the visual sunset, yet they must keep the Sabbath holy. Yahweh will not hold such a person accountable if he cannot grow a beard. Nor will He look away from a man who loses his hair naturally. However, the man who willfully shaves his beard or his head, aside from the scripturally permitted reasons, will be held accountable.

The evidence is conclusively in favor of the continued observance of these commandments and I, for one, will never put a razor to my face again.

posted 04-15-2002 01:57 PM            

The issue of beards falls under the discussions of another thread here - "The Rantings of a Lunatic", where we have been sharing thoughts on which portions of the First Covenant law still apply to New Covenant believers. You may want to look over those posts, though there are quite a few of them. One thing is certain, and that is that the regulations of the beard were added after the First Covenant was sealed, and weren't a part of the original covenant between Yahweh and Israel. As a regulation of physical purity or holiness, it is of far less significance than commands ("Thou shalt do no murder", for example). At the first council of the elders, it was established that there are only four points of the "law of Moses" that must be adhered to by Gentile believers, and the regulations of the beard are not one of them. So if you are a Gentile believer, graffed into the tree of Israel, your beard is not something that needs to be of concern to you. Unless, of course, Yahweh leads you to obey that ordinance.

We can always come up with reasons for either obeying or disobeying a particular ordinance. It is often suggested that men should grow their beards because that is the way Yahweh created them. This is certainly a true fact, but Yahweh also created us with hair that will continue to grow as long as we will let it. Should we then allow our hair to grow to our ankles? Yahweh created women with hair on their legs, so would it be sin for a woman to shave her legs? Suffice to say that if you are a Gentile believer, shaving your beard is not a sin - unless Yahweh has specifically led you to obey that ordinance.

posted 04-15-2002 06:44 PM            

Then I can commit the act of cross dressing becuase it was not mentioned from Exodus 19-23? It isn't found until Duet 22:5 so don't condemn the man that comes dressed like a woman to your assembly next week.

We are to live by every word of Yahueh properly divided and interpreted according to the Ruach Kadosh. There is no wall anymor between Gentiles and Israel according to Ephesians 2 and Romans 9-11. Quit ressurecting it and distorting the Word of Yahueh.

posted 04-15-2002 07:34 PM         

This issue is simply a matter of what a man does to be distinctly a man. What we have is this:

Long hair and head coverings are for women.

Short hair, beards, and tassles for men.

There's nothing hard about it.

Of course there are some men who cannot grow beards, just like there are some women who cannot grow long hair. These are the exceptions, not the rule, and should not be allowed to override the above teachings of the Scriptures.

In His Service,

posted 04-15-2002 07:35 PM         

I read many teachings on the subject but just kept going back to what the word says. Like many other parts of YHWH's word, there are people who read it different ways.

I read it as "neither shalt thou mar (destroy) the corners of thy beard" and understood that if I have a beard, I am not to destroy the corners which are the parts around my jawline. Destroying the corners but allowing the rest to grow results in a "goatee".

I stopped wearing a goatee immediately and shaved it from off of my face.

Now if the scripture had said "thou shalt not mar (destroy) ANY of thy beard at all", I would be wearing a full beard today and would let it grow to my toes!

posted 04-15-2002 10:08 PM         

quote:

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Originally posted by david_ben_yacob:
Beard = jawline?

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When did I say that beard equals jawline?

If I'm not mistaken (and I'm not) I said that the CORNERS are "the parts around my jawline".

Please don't twist my words anymore.

If you don't have a beard then you can't mar it ?

Isn't that obvious?

What kind of convoluted reasoning is this?

Did you stop beating your wife?

posted 04-15-2002 10:37 PM            

You made the following statements:

Simply put -- a beard should grow out as YahVeh designed it to grow. It is not to be a goatee, fu manchu, or the ever popular "Bible-school" model shaved to model the contour of the face (this also happens to be the style that sodomites who wear beards favor -- ?coincidence?). Just let the beard grow.

Wow, if I follow this recommendation and just "let it grow", then I look like a homeless man or drunkard. Seems that it is childish to say doing it a certain way is "the way of the queers" or whatever. How often have we found where those of pagan beliefs or sinful lifestyles copy the ways of the true believers? So which came first? Can you prove that?

You also made the following statements:

Read II Samuel 10. The king of Ammon died who had "shown kindness" to King David (verse 2). David sent some of his servants to comfort the son now newly made king. The wretched son who was newly made king shaved off half the beard of each man (verse 4) and "the men were greatly ashamed" (verse 5).

Did David tell them, "Shave off that silly looking half beard"? NO! He didn't even let them return home. He told them to WAIT "until your beards be grown, and then return" (vs. 5).

In Isaiah 15 shame is spoken of people with "all their heads shall be baldness, and every beard cut off". This beard thing is looking more and more important, eh?

Now, it would seem that because they should just "let it grow", that their beards would ALWAYS be lopsided from that day forth. Right? Oh wait! I bet they were allowed to let it grow until it reached such a length whereby they might TRIM the other side to the same length as the short side! Then they would no longer be ashamed. Otherwise, they went through the rest of their lives with this "shame" and it was a waste of time to wait a while before it grew out some.

It says that it is a shame for a man to have long hair. This includes the beard. Now, no man can prove from any of the scriptures what was considered too short or too long. The measurements aren't there. The length of the current rabbinic beards may just be too long and a "shame". Your comments about the beard being too short and contouring the face may have been the correct length. However, alas, we have no time machine.

posted 04-15-2002 11:34 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by torah4today to David ben Yacob at posted 04-15-2002 10:20 PM:
I will not retaliate with you and slander you as you have me ... I will just turn the other cheek.

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YET, just 12 scant minutes prior to this ...

quote:

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Originally posted by torah4today to David ben Yacob at posted 04-15-2002 10:08 PM:
Did you stop beating your wife?

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How is it that T4T questions my obedience to YahShua:

Judge righteous judgment

posted 04-15-2002 11:36 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by t4t to David ben Yacob at 04-15-2002 10:20 PM:
I will not retaliate with you and slander you as you have me ... I will just turn the other cheek.

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YET, just 12 scant minutes prior to this, right out of blue and having nothing whatsoever to do with the subject ...

quote:

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Originally posted by t4t to David ben Yacob at 04-15-2002 10:08 PM:
Did you stop beating your wife?

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How is it that t4t questions my obedience to YahShua:

Judge righteous judgment

posted 04-15-2002 11:47 PM         

quote:

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Originally posted by servant of YHVH:
YET, just 12 scant minutes prior to this, right out of blue and having nothing whatsoever to do with the subject ...

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by t4t to David ben Yacob at 04-15-2002 10:08 PM:
Did you stop beating your wife?

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LOL!!!

You are really coming out showing your true colors today!

My question to David had everything to do with the subject to wit: the absurd no-win trick question.

But you knew that already didn't you?

Though you may not admit it servant, you probably are not the paragon of virtue in our age.