posted 04-18-2002 11:50 AM            

That first sentence completely puzzles me. What have I been accusitory of you? Huh? And this "clear witness of Scripture" that you claim I deny is nothing more than your interpretations. Yes, indeed, I do deny that.

David said, "Acts 15 doesn't deal with a host of issues like sabbath , feast, murder, etc.... so I guess it is acceptable to voilate the mikvot/commands of Yahueh on these issues?!?! The early church was dealing with the Pharisee Hillel branch that said converts must shed their own blood for redemption through circumcision. The issue was circumsision in the flesh versus circumcision in the heart and mind and what the Jews today call the "oral torah" or Yahushua called the traditions of men, "law of Moshe......"
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I gather you enjoy arguing against yourself? First you refer to the Ten Commandments and Feast days, as though the absence of these in Acts 15 "proves" everything must be obeyed. Then you say what was being addressed was the oral law, traditions of men, law of Moshe. Well, if this is what is being addressed, one would not expect the mention of the Ten Commandments and Feast Days, would they? Specifically, the issue in question in Acts 15 is circumcision AND the law of Moses. I don't care how much you want to wiggle around it, this is precisely what Scripture states. Believers of the Pharisee sect were constraining Gentiles to be circumcised and keep the law of Moses. The apostles ended this debate very clearly - NO other burden aside from the four points mentioned is placed upon the Gentiles. This quite clearly coincides with Paul's instruction that Yahshua abolished the "law of commandments contained in ordinances". It also agrees with Yahweh's promise that His New Covenant would NOT be like the one He made with Israel at Sinai.

From David: "This is what is happening here a brother is studying Torah and the rest of the Scriptures to see what will please Yahueh and has ask for clarifying on the issue of whether to trim his bread or not according to Scriptural guidelines."
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Yep, and the Scriptural guideline is that all of the regulations of physical purity and righteousness are worthless. It is becoming more and more apparent that you greatly resemble the Pharisees whom Yahshua declared were like white-washed tombs. Nice and shiney and "righteous" on the outside (physically keeping the law), but corrupt and decaying on the inside, having no understanding of spiritual righteousness.

David said, "You introduce the concept of only doing the least that is required and making it in by the skin of your teeth. You won't make it like that because if the righteous scarcly be saved then where shall the sinner and unrighteous appear ? In other words the one that is following that still small voice of the Ruach Kadosh and the one which argues with that voice and tries to reason away what they are seeing in Scripture being legalist shouting "I only have to do this much" will surely be lost like the servant that hid his talent was cast into outer darkness, while the other two/2 that added to their talents was given more and a place in the kingdom of Yahueh."
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Hmmm. Is that what I introduce? Wow, I'm glad you told me that, 'cause I was thinking something altogether different. See, I was thinking our Father was much more concerned with the intent of our hearts and the condition of our spirits than with the length of our beards. You know, that silly concept of concentrating on loving Yahweh and loving each other, serving Yahweh and serving each other, instead of heaping up regulations of how long we can grow our hair or what our clothes have to be made of, etc., etc. But now, you have certainly set me straight. Now I realize that Yahweh actually wants us to debate over little points of the law, accuse each other of sin, declare to one another that we won't make it into the Kingdom, pronounce that one or the other is "of the devil" and argue every chance we get. Let me guess - you come from a disfunctional family, don't you?

David said, "You are a contentious woman and have chosen to take up a fight with a servant of the Most High . You are fighting with the Most High and rejecting His counsel even though you think you do Yahueh a service. I would repent if I were you. I am nothing but He is your salvation. Time to quit arguing with Him and obey or perish."
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Ah, and here we come right down to it, don't we? You are the "servant of the Most High", so obviously you couldn't be mistaken about anything. You are just overflowing with "truth", and anyone who can't see that and be obedient to such a wise prophet just has to be of the devil. I have just one question though. Have you ever been able to find an umbrella big enough to keep the rain off of your head?

Oh, and by the way, if I'm a "contentious woman", it sure is going to be a shock to the doctor that circumcised me. Sheesh - what WAS he thinking?

posted 04-18-2002 04:51 PM            

Leviticus 19 is in the Torah not the Talmud isn't it. I love the Father and want to do all He wants me to before I start trying to love all you diverse humans. Love Yahueh supremely then your neighbors as yourself.

I have nothing personal against you Male... but when we put the law of Yahueh on the same level as the law given in the Rabbinical teachings then I do get riled.

posted 04-19-2002 10:25 AM            

Nothing should ever be done in an attempt to please other people. We are accountable to no one but Yahweh. You say that you want to do all the Father wants you to do, and this is good. But I believe it is error to start with the Old Covenant. Yahshua has brought us a new and better Covenant. Just as new wine cannot be placed in an old wineskin, the New Covenant cannot be crammed into the Old. It is far better to concentrate on the regulations and ordinances of the New Covenant, then (if Yahweh leads), proceed to studying the Old. If I do not live under the Old Covenant, but under the New, why would I choose to subject myself to the regulations of the Old Covenant?

David said, "I have nothing personal against you Male... but when we put the law of Yahueh on the same level as the law given in the Rabbinical teachings then I do get riled."
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And I certainly have nothing personal against you. But Scripture does not tell us that it is only the Rabbinical teachings that have been abolished. The Rabbinical teachings have never been a valid part of Yahweh's law, or what He has expected of His people. How could Yahshua abolish something that was never valid in the first place? The original Covenant made between Yahweh and Israel says nothing about the length of beards or any other regulations of physical purity or righteousness. Scripture tells us that the Israelites broke that original Covenant, and because of their transgressions, "the law" was added. This is not Rabbinical teachings, but the "law of Moses". This is "the law of commandments contained in ordinances", which Yahshua abolished.

The central message of the Gospel is that everything is now spiritual, because true worshippers must worship the Father in spirit and in truth - not in fleshly standards of "righteousness". The sacrifice made for our transgressions is spiritual, not physical. Our Temple is spiritual, not physical. Our High Priest is spiritual, not physical. The ministration of the Priesthood is spiritual, not physical. Our obedience is spiritual, not physical. When someone starts telling a babe in the faith that they must keep any or all of the regulations of physical righteousness under the Old Covenant, that's when I get riled.

posted 04-19-2002 05:25 PM            

You wrote:
"The central message of the Gospel is that everything is now spiritual, because true worshippers must worship the Father in spirit and in truth - not in fleshly standards of "righteousness"."

This I guess is where we majorly disagree. I believe the covanant of the sacrificial law , the Levitical priesthood the tabernacle ect.... is the law that dealt with sin and is what is done away with in the Messiah. The length of one's beard has nothing to do with trying to remit someones' transgressions.This is what the law that was added was to do. It is a righteous standard Yahueh had written down so we would be different from the heathen around us that worship the sun, mar themselves for the dead, believe the dead are still living etc.... and to make a clear distinction between the sexes. This is very practical and spiritual.

I do believe that physical natural things are spiritual. If we spiritualize away everything physical and natural then pretty soon we are like the Gnostics which believed all Matter was evil, when Yahueh who created all things called them very good. These physical regulations are to teach us what is good and natural in it's intended purpose are spiritual. Marcion not Paul brought us this another Yahushua that spiritualizes obeying Yahueh away to the point we make Yahueh the personification of Satan and Yahushua the new El that we are to worship. This is a false heresy that still effects us today. If your heart is right you will gladly obey instead of rebelling becuase it is physical.

posted 04-20-2002 01:32 PM            

You wrote, "This I guess is where we majorly disagree. I believe the covanant of the sacrificial law , the Levitical priesthood the tabernacle ect.... is the law that dealt with sin and is what is done away with in the Messiah. The length of one's beard has nothing to do with trying to remit someones' transgressions.This is what the law that was added was to do. It is a righteous standard Yahueh had written down so we would be different from the heathen around us that worship the sun, mar themselves for the dead, believe the dead are still living etc.... and to make a clear distinction between the sexes. This is very practical and spiritual."
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What I am concerned with most is "What is sin?" Is it actually sin to shave our beards? If it is sin, it would require forgiveness and atonement. But if it is not sin, and rather just a "good thing to do", then it is not of major concern to me. I know that we can come up with reasons to follow this regulation - it makes a dictinction between the sexes, it's how Yahweh created us, etc. But is it actually a sin to not abide by this regulation? This statute, along with many others found in the law of Moses, was not a part of the original Covenant Yahweh made with Israel. Yahweh had promised Israel that if they kept that orginal Covenant, they would be a nation of kings and priests, and a peculiar treasure to Him. In other words, they would be righteous and holy if they kept that Covenant. Under this original Covenant, they would be righteous and holy without any regulation for their beards or their clothing or whatever. That tells me that this regulation does not involve what is sinful or unrighteous.

You said, "I do believe that physical natural things are spiritual. If we spiritualize away everything physical and natural then pretty soon we are like the Gnostics which believed all Matter was evil, when Yahueh who created all things called them very good. These physical regulations are to teach us what is good and natural in it's intended purpose are spiritual. Marcion not Paul brought us this another Yahushua that spiritualizes obeying Yahueh away to the point we make Yahueh the personification of Satan and Yahushua the new El that we are to worship. This is a false heresy that still effects us today. If your heart is right you will gladly obey instead of rebelling becuase it is physical."
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This is not at all what I am talking about. Paul said that Yahweh's law is spiritual, but we are carnal. Yahweh's law involves the spirit, while we are fleshly-minded. The Israelites saw the commandment "Thou shalt do no murder", and assumed that they could hate as much as they wanted, as long as they didn't actually murder. This is the human tendancy to look at the law from a fleshly viewpoint rather than a spiritual one. Yahshua brought us the spiritual meaning and intent of the commandment - to hate or be angry without cause is just as much sin as physical murder. If Yahweh's law is, in fact, spiritual, then it must actually apply to the spirit before it applies to the flesh. We are guilty of sin long before actually committing adultery in the flesh, because the spirit has already sinned in lusting. How then, does the regulation of beards apply to the spirit at all, let alone before applying to the flesh?

It is not my intent to say that nothing physical matters. But if we are discussing a regulation that applies ONLY to the flesh and physical standards of righteousness, then we know that it is a regulation of "religion" just as much as the Temple service, priesthood and sacrificial regulations were. Since Yahweh's law is spiritual, if there is not a spiritual aspect to a regulation, it is not a part of Yahweh's law of sin and righteousness.

posted 04-21-2002 12:25 PM            

I do not think you or any human is qualified to tell us what is a sin and what isn't out side the Word of Yahueh. This is why we have so many demonations in the world today. Everyone wants to redefine what the Scriptures teach. I believe it is a sin to try to look like a woman without facial hair when Yahueh gave you a beard that He specifically told you not to cut the edges of, Leviticus 19:27. If you can't grow a breard or are bald then that is the Creator's choice for you not to have these things, but other wise you are to look clean and natural not yeilding to your culture and pride of life. I do believe the physical things that are required by the law are still required for today. Yahueh has not changed and Yahushua the Messiah is the same , yesterday , today and forever. Yahushua or the Apostles in no way condemned the keeping of the Torah including the Apostles Paul. EliYah's sermon on sabbath was very good in telling us that sin is defined by the Torah. It is very specific in the writing of the New Testament what is done away with and that is the shedding of blood for sin which is why circumcision was included as not necessary for adult male converts. Nothing else except the parts of the Torah that deal with the shedding of blood to remit sins is still in effect today. I will not go beyond what the word of Yahueh says on this matter and continue the scisms created by people loving their own opinions rather than what the word of Yahueh clearly states.

posted 04-22-2002 12:02 PM            

You said, "It is very specific in the writing of the New Testament what is done away with and that is the shedding of blood for sin which is why circumcision was included as not necessary for adult male converts. Nothing else except the parts of the Torah that deal with the shedding of blood to remit sins is still in effect today. I will not go beyond what the word of Yahueh says on this matter and continue the scisms created by people loving their own opinions rather than what the word of Yahueh clearly states."
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I agree, it certainly is very specific what has been done away with - the Old Covenant. We are very plainly told that you cannot put new wine into an old wineskin, but here you are trying to cram the New Covenant into the Old, creating some sort of hybrid covenant. When we die in Yahshua, we are dead to "the law", so that we can be free to marry another. We are no longer bound by the terms and conditions of our first husband (the first Covenant), we are to give our love and obedience to our new husband (New Covenant). The Torah of the First Covenant is clearly referred to as a schoolmaster, which we are no longer under. Yahweh plainly stated that His New Covenant would not be like the Covenant made at Sinai. By speaking of a "New Covenant" HE makes the first one "old". It is Yahweh Himself who rescinded the first Covenant and replaced it with the New Covenant. Nothing in Scripture suggests that we are simply supposed to add the New Covenant to the Old one - that would clearly be putting new wine into the old wineskin.

Each and every one of us must make a simple choice - which Covenant will we live under? We cannot live under both, because trying to live under the Old Covenant at all thoroughly rejects Yahshua's authority to proclaim a New Covenant and loose us from our first husband. We either live under the Old Covenant, in which case we are bound to keep every point of the law perfectly, or we live under the New Covenant, in which case we are bound to keep the law of that Covenant.

The law of the New Covenant consists of Yahweh's Ten Commandments, the Two Great Commandments, and various ordinances of service (like the four points given in the council of Jerusalem, baptism and partaking of Yahshua's supper). None of the ordinances and regulations of the law of Moses have any place in the New Covenant.

We can study the law of Moses and learn from it, as we would learn from a schoolmaster. But those lessons are intended to lead us to Yahshua and the New Covenant in His blood. If we choose to live by the regulations of the Old Covenant and declare that violating those regulations is sin, then we are clearly rejecting the New Covenant in preference of the Old. Scripture is extremely clear that coming under the New Covenant causes us to be free from the Old Covenant.

Galatians 2:16) Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Yahshua Messiah, even we have believed in Yahshua Messiah, that we might be justified by the faith of Messiah, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 17) But if, while we seek to be justified by Messiah, we ourselves also are found sinners, [is] therefore Messiah the minister of sin? Eloi forbid. 18) For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19) For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

Through baptism into Christ, we are dead to the law. In that death, the law of the First Covenant has lost all power over us, so that we are free to marry another. If we build again that which was destroyed (the power of the First Covenant), we make ourselves transgressors.

Galatians 3:10) For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11) But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of Eloi, [it is] evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12) And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. 13) Messiah hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree:

Under the First Covenant, anyone who does not continue perfectly in every point of the law is cursed. But Yahshua has redeemed us from that curse - we are no longer cursed for not continuing perfectly in every point of that law. Yet you are telling people that not adhering to these points of First Covenant law is sin. Obviously, then, you much prefer the First Covenant. So be it, that is your choice to make. I choose to live under the New Covenant and obey my new husband.

Romans 7:1) Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? 2) For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to [her] husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of [her] husband. 3) So then if, while [her] husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. 4) Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Messiah; that ye should be married to another, [even] to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto Eloi. 5) For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. 6) But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter.

Apparently, you are trying your best to be an adulteress - married to two husbands at the same time. But you are NOT legally free to marry the second until the first is DEAD. It is only through being dead to the law (the ending of the First Covenant) that we are free to marry another. Through Yahshua we are delivered from the law so that we can serve in newness of spirit and NOT in the oldness of the letter. There are only three options here.

1) Your first husband is dead, and you have married another. If this is the case, you are under the New Covenant, and the First Covenant (the law of your first husband) has no power or authority over you.

2) Your first husband is still living, so you cannot legally marry another. If this is your choice, then you are under the First Covenant blessings and curses and have no forgiveness through the blood of Yahshua.

3) Your first husband is still living and you have married another anyway, making yourself an adulteress. If this is your choice, you are continuing in sin each and every day of your life as an adulteress. You spend each day claiming the crucifixion and resurrection of Messiah, while crucifying Him to yourself again and again each time you fail in continuing in each and every point of the First Covenant law.

I've made my choice, and it is number 1. I follow the law of my new husband, and that law is the New Covenant. The Old Covenant, the law of my first husband, has no authority in my life at all because I am dead to that law.

posted 05-14-2002 01:44 AM            

The shaving of the head and beard (in part and sometimes in totality), and making marks and cuttings in their flesh were pagan customs and practices used in MOURNING FOR THEIR DEAD. Those pagan customs and practices used in mourning for their dead are mentioned by Isaiah and Jeremiah concerning the prophesied death and destruction by YAHWEH pronounced upon the land of Moab for their sins.

Isaiah 15 (2) He is gone up to Bajith, and to Dibon, the high places, to weep [for their dead]: Moab shall howl over Nebo, and over Medeba: on all their heads shall be baldness, and every beard cut off. (3) In their streets they shall gird themselves with sackcloth: on the tops of their houses, and in their streets, every one shall howl, weeping abundantly.

Jeremiah 48 (37) For every head shall be bald, and every beard clipped: upon all the hands shall be cuttings, and upon the loins sackcloth. (38) There shall be lamentation [for their dead] generally upon all the housetops of Moab, and in the streets thereof: for I have broken Moab like a vessel wherein is no pleasure, saith YAHWEH.

Let us put the following verses in the context in which I am convinced that they were meant. The context was a warning against being ceremonially defiled for the dead by touching the dead and a warning against being ceremonially defiled for the dead by using those pagan customs and practices of mourning for their dead. (Also remember that anyone would become ceremonially defiled by touching the dead body of a dead person or by touching someone else who was unclean from touching a dead body of a dead person.)

Leviticus 21 (1) And YAHWEH said unto Moses, Speak unto the priests the sons of Aaron, and say unto them, There shall none be defiled FOR THE DEAD among his people: (2) But for his kin, that is near unto him, that is, for his mother, and for his father, and for his son, and for his daughter, and for his brother, (3) And for his sister a virgin, that is nigh unto him, which hath had no husband; for her may he be defiled [i.e. by touching their dead body]. (4) But he shall not defile himself, being a chief man among his people, to profane himself. (5) They shall not make baldness upon their head, neither shall they shave off the corner of their beard, nor make any cuttings in their flesh [for their dead].

Leviticus 19 (1) And YAHWEH spake unto Moses, saying, (2) Speak unto all the congregation of the Children of Israel, and say unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I, YAHWEH your Elohim am holy. … (27) Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard. (28) Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh FOR THE DEAD, nor print any marks upon you: I am YAHWEH.

Deuteronomy 14 (1) Ye [the Children of Israel] are the children of YAHWEH your ELOHIM: ye shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness between your eyes FOR THE DEAD. (2) For thou art a holy people unto YAHWEH thy Elohim, and YAHWEH hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto HIMSELF, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

posted 05-14-2002 08:46 AM            

Thanks for the post. That was some Scriptural background that was not brought up before and it does put a totally new perspective on this issue.

I do not think that I have welcomed you yet to this forum...so welcome. I hope you enjoy the fellowship with us.

Shalom,

posted 05-15-2002 05:30 PM            

I hope you find the time to come back soon and often. I have looked at your web site and find some very interesting things. Funny how you already had put together a study on this beard issue.

Hope to talk to you again soon.

Shalom,

posted 05-15-2002 06:50 PM            

And looking like pagan sun worshippers.