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Originally posted by HeHoldsMyHand:
Shalom All,

I have recently read a very interesting website called Joel's Trumpet, where he has written some very good articles about the beast of Revelation. Taking Daniel's interpretation of Nebuchanezzar's statue dream as a starter, he points out the fact that the body parts are empires that would control Babylonia, not Israel. The feet and toes are a revival of the empire represented by the iron legs. The fourth empire to control that area was the Islamic one. It had a 'fatal wound' when the Ottoman Empire was finished in 1924 and is now reviving as the mixed feet and toes. One interesting point he made is that the hebrew word for 'mixed' is arab. Anyway, the site is certainly worth a look.

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HeHoldsMyHand: Could you put up the link to "Joel's Trumpet?"

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Originally posted by AbrahamC:
And please brother, DO take Yahusho's in-text interpretations seriously, both in Daniel + in Revelation. Why should you ignore His counsel? At least two witnessess -RDW + Burning One have drawn your attention to the angel's interpretations, perhaps i make up the third?

Abraham in NZ

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I do not ignore His counsel, just the counsel of those whose eyes are blinded and hearts are hardened, so that they cannot see or understand the truth. May Yahuweh teach you in this matter just as He taught me.

In just a few short years, the two witnesses of Revelation 11 will appear on the earth with great power. They will have the power to strike the earth with any plague they wish, and to withhold rain from the earth. If anyone tries to kill them, fire comes out of their mouth and burns up their enemies.

They will prophesy and warn the earth to repent and turn back to Yahuweh. After 1260 days, the beast from the pit of the deep will arise and kill these two witnesses. This beast of Rev. 11 is the same beast that is mentioned in Daniel 7, the fourth beast. It is Leviathan the seven-headed dragon. Not Ha-Shatan, but a literal, physical fire-breathing monster, than human beings, with all of their technology and weapons, will not be able to defeat.

You see, all the world will worship this monster, and Ha-Shatan who resurrects him, because this dragon was able to kill the two witnesses of Yahuweh, who had supernatural powers.

You have had plenty of time to consider and respond to Chuck Baldwin's post below.

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Originally posted by chandler.fulton:
1.) Daniel's beasts of Revelation 7 are literal, just as the beasts in Revelation are literal.

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Originally posted by Chuck Baldwin:

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16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.
17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.
19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, ...
23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

When Scripture explicitly interprets its own symbols, i don't see how that can be argued with. Beasts = Kingdoms, clear & simple.

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Please explain how Daniel's beasts can be literal when the verses quoted say they represent kingdoms ruled by earthly kings. These are not Chuck's interpretations, but the interpretations as given by YHWH's messengers. I will have a very hard time believing your interpretation until you can explain the verses above.

Can you also provide evidence of the existence of such literal beasts in any historic writings?

Shabbat Shalom,
John

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Originally posted by thinker:
Chandler,
I understand you honestly believe this,while most everyone else doesn't think this is a real fire breathing dragon with seven heads, but are different kingdoms.
May I ask you, how did you come to believe this ? What lead you to understand this as a seven headed dragon and not symbolic ?
And one more question. What if you are wrong ? May Yahs blessings cover you.

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Thanks for the wish that I be blessed. May Yahuweh build you up in the belief and favor you also.

Yahuweh opened my eyes to see this truth. I cried out to Yahuweh to teach me the truth about the end times. I did not go to other men or the writings of men. Just depended on Yahuweh to teach me what the truth was, for I knew there were many dozens of popular interpretations, and only one, or none of them were right.

The things I have written on this thread seem to be veiled to the eyes of everyone that reads them, for some scoff and mock, and others just simply do not see the truth. Some things are just not given to everyone to understand.

Some individuals demand proof, but I've already given the proofs from the Scriptures. If you don't believe the Scriptures, then you will not believe me--even if I elaborate more.

What Chuck and John and others don't see is that literal objects/things can also represent other literal objects. This throws them. The four beasts of Daniel 7 are ALSO four sovereigns, and ALSO four kingdoms. They go hand in hand. Same with the ten heads. They are ten literal heads on a literal, fire-breathing monster named Liwiathan, but they are ALSO ten kings that will aid Liwiathan.

Be very wary of attaching symbolic interpretations to prophetic events and people. Be wary of the unbelief also of wolves in sheeps clothing. The unbelief of these false brethren spreads like gangrene. I'm certainly not calling anyone a false brother just because they do not see the things that I see--just watch out for these people because they are everywhere. Unbelief and hardness of heart are everywhere. It was Ha Shatan that said, "Did Elohim REALLY say that....."!!

Favor and peace to you

Chandler

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Originally posted by chandler.fulton:
What Chuck and John and others don't see is that literal objects/things can also represent other literal objects. This throws them. The four beasts of Daniel 7 are ALSO four sovereigns, and ALSO four kingdoms. They go hand in hand. Same with the ten heads. They are ten literal heads on a literal, fire-breathing monster named Liwiathan, but they are ALSO ten kings that will aid Liwiathan.

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Are you saying this is always the case or just that this is the case with Daniel's beasts?

What about this verse? "Speak, and say, Thus says Adonai YHWH; look, I am against you, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon that lies in the midst of his rivers, which has said, My river is my own, and I have made it for myself." Ezekiel 29: 3. Is Pharaoh a literal dragon as well as a literal man?

Is our Savior a literal lamb and/or lion? Are his followers literal sheep? Are unbelievers literal dogs, goats, swine, etc.? If not, then why isn't it possible that Daniel's beasts are not literal either?

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Be very wary of attaching symbolic interpretations to prophetic events and people. Be wary of the unbelief also of wolves in sheeps clothing. The unbelief of these false brethren spreads like gangrene. I'm certainly not calling anyone a false brother just because they do not see the things that I see--just watch out for these people because they are everywhere. Unbelief and hardness of heart are everywhere. It was Ha Shatan that said, "Did Elohim REALLY say that....."!!

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This is not the way to help the brethren understand your position. I am not trying to attack you, but to understand you. Nor is my unbelief a result of a hard heart, but of a lack of understanding of your position. If you speak the truth, then speak plainly, laying out your position with patience and love so we can learn from you.

Shalom,
John

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Originally posted by John Cordaro:
This is not the way to help the brethren understand your position. I am not trying to attack you, but to understand you. Nor is my unbelief a result of a hard heart, but of a lack of understanding of your position. If you speak the truth, then speak plainly, laying out your position with patience and love so we can learn from you.

Shalom,
John

[This message has been edited by John Cordaro (edited 07-29-2007).]

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Shalom John,

I've laid it out as plainly as I can. Like all hidden truths, one cannot understand or see them unless absolute dependence upon Yahuweh for understanding is paramount in one's being.

This is simplistic, but then again, hasn't Yahuweh made foolish the wisdom of the world? Why not go to Yahuweh for the truth, not caring or reading what I, or any others say is the truth about the end-times? Daniel did such a thing, and truth was revealed to him after much study, meditation and supplication to Yahuweh. May we all do the same!

Favor and peace to you,

Chandler

Sometimes the Scriptures have dual applications-- they are addressing people/events that existed in the time that they were written. Also, through the leading of the Spirit of Yahuweh, one can also discern that the same passages are speaking of events that are destined to occur in the future. The passage you quoted from Yehezqel is one such passage. It is both speaking of Pharaoh and Leviathan, the literal dragon that will arise from the Abyss.

Shalom and favor

THE NIMROD, MARS, AND MARDUK CONNECTION

The ancient Babylonian deity Marduk was associated with the planet Mars and was the origin of the legends and lore of that planet as well as many later gods and heroes. Marduk originated as the apotheosis of the biblical Nimrod. The book of Genesis lists Nimrod as a descendant of Ham, the third son of Noah. After the flood when men began to multiply once again and to establish settlements, the majority of Noah's descendants evidently settled together in the valley of Mesopotamia, though a few spread out into Palestine and north-west Africa. After about a thousand years (exact date unspecified in the Scriptures)Nimrod was born in what is now Ethiopia.

According to tradition, Nimrod set out to establish himself an empire and began by conquering the cities which had become established in Mesopotamia. Among these were Babel, Erech, Akkad, and Calneh in Sumeria, and in Assyria the cities of Rehoboth, Calah, and Resen. Besides conquering these seven cities he also founded Ninevah. The Bible is specific in stating that he was the first man after the flood to become an emperor. He seems to have been impelled and empowered by super-human force and his onslaught was irresistible. Genesis 10 describes Nimrod as a "mighty hunter before Yahuweh." The term is not complimentary, but implies ruthlessness and a lust for power.

After establishing his kingdom in the Tigris/Euphrates region Nimrod consolidated his power by establishing a state religion. He constructed a religion that included deification and worship of the emperor (himself), worship of Satan and his demons, and star-worship (corrupted from a pure antediluvian astronomy). A key unifying factor in his religion was to be an astronomical/astrological observatory built upon the pinnacle of a pyramid, or tower, at Babel. It has been suggested that Nimrod spent some time in Egypt before moving up to Mesopotamia and that while in Egypt he studied the Egyptian mystery religion perpetuated there from before the flood by the wife of Ham, whom tradition takes to be a descendant of Cain.

The building of this pyramid (or ziggurat) was interrupted by Yahuweh
himself in order to prevent Nimrod from extending his sway over all of the inhabited earth, according to Genesis. Yahuweh halted the work by confusing their language so they could no longer cooperate easily with one another, nor indeed easily inhabit the same region together. As a consequence the human race was dispersed, and as men scattered they carried with them remnants of primeval revelation from Yahuweh, and Satan/hero worship which Nimrod had invented as well. This system of muddled half-truths is known today to Bible scholars as the "Babylonian Mystery Religion." From a biblical point of view this religious system is described as the well-spring for all subsequent false religion and endless mythological systems, (For example see Isaiah 47 and revelation Chapters 17 and 18).

After their deaths, Nimrod and his wife Semiramis (the ancient "queen of heaven") were confirmed by their priests as gods and given homage as Marduk and Astarte. The name Marduk was not revealed to the masses but his attributes were set forth under pseudonyms of various gods constructed for the public interest. Some of his alter-egos include:

ENKI The god of wisdom, incantations, and the deep waters of the oceans. This god was also called APSU, from which comes the name Poseidon.

ASTALLUHI The son of ENKI/APSU was the god of healing and exorcism. The temple of Marduk at Babylon was called the Esagila after him. This name is the original of the Greek Aesculapius. Astalluhi was also the god of wisdom like his father but in addition the god of instruction and the tutor of many of the other gods and heroes of the Babylonian pantheon. This aspect of his personality became associated with the Greek centaur Chiron who fulfilled a similar function. The Titan Atlas also derives his name and personality from this god.

BEL/BAAL This was the primary name by which other nations (including Israel) were introduced to the worship of Marduk. Baal means "lord" or "master". Under this name with many prefixes and suffixes he was worshiped by the Canaanites, Phoenicians, Syrians and to some extent by the Egyptians. Later, the Greeks associated him with Hercules under the name Melkarth which is a transliteration of Marduk. The name Baal sometimes occurs in connection with a locality such as "Baal-Peor" or "Baal-Hermon". More frequently it occurs with compound attributes such as "Baal-zebub", "lord of the flies", still today one of the epithets of Satan. "Baal-zephon" later to be the god Triton means "lord of the black north, or the northern void", and "Meri-Baal" translates as "lord of the rebellion".

NABUL/NEBO The prophet. This god was the son of Marduk associated with prophecy received by singing, chanting and muttering (in "other tongues"); as well as oracles. He was the original of both Apollo (Nabul) and Hermes as the Greeks knew them. The names Nabul and Bel were the official names of Nimrod/Marduk in later periods and were popular in later periods among the ruling classes of Babylon as name elements as in NEBUchadnezzar and BELshazzar.

As a note on the Babylonian mystery religion, the original cult of the mother and child, Semiramis and Tammuz, became later Isis and Osiris, Venus and Adonis, the madonna and child in various cultures down to this day.

There is one common element to Nimrod/Marduk in all his manifestations and that is the symbol of the snake/serpent/dragon. Nimrod took the dragon as his personal emblem, so that from him spring various dragon myths and their special association with apocalyptic events. Strikingly the only favorable accounts of dragons are found among the Hamitic peoples of the world (like Nimrod) including the Ethiopians, Hittites, Chinese, Japanese and American Indian.

The thread of serpent lore is evident in all of Marduk's guises regardless of nation, pantheon, or role. Poseidon was accompanied by creatures who were half man and half snake as well as by the sea serpent Leviathan (mentioned in Job). Aesculapeus/Chiron/Hermes were all associated with the cadduceus of entwined serpents. The story of Apollo and the python is well known as that of Hercules/Melkarth and the Hydra. The god Triton was half snake. That the worship of Nimrod and Semiramis is the origin of all the pagan systems on earth is well documented by Alexander Hislop in his book, The Two Babylons which contains many sound facts in spite of the author's anti-Roman-Catholic sentiments which appear to some readers as too strong.

The Bible reveals that the ultimate source of all this evil is not to be sought in Nimrod the man (the first of the post-flood antichrists), but rather in the evil character of the one who possessed him, namely Satan. In many passages throughout the Bible the following associations are made about Satan: the serpent in Eden, Leviathan the sea monster, the dragon, "that ancient serpent", "the god of this age", the king of Babylon, the king of Tyre (Phoenicia), the father of lies, the prince of the power of the air, etc. In Isaiah 14 he is spoken of as the instigator of war in the heavens (space) by attempting to "ascend to the sides of the north" in order to seat himself upon the throne of God and thus to rule the universe. Thus he is the "lord of (the) rebellion" and "lord of the black void of the north".

The primeval astronomy, of which Babylonian astrology, (still extant today) was a corruption, was based on the realization that the entire universe was created and had worth only in relation to the earth. Thus the ancients saw it as no accident that the stars and planets were set in a certain order by God at creation (see the classic books by Seiss and Bullinger on this subject). The antediluvian patriarchs developed a system of constellations to serve as perpetual reminders of man's fall and the promise of a coming redeemer as well as a record of the angelic conflict down through the ages.

At the most prominent place in the heavens the patriarchs placed the constellation Draco, the dragon, which lies coiled about that point of the sky they called "absolute north". This is the center of the circle which the earth's north pole describes in the sky every 25,858 years. About 4000 BC the star Iota Draconis was the nearest visible star to the north pole, while about 3000 BC the north pole centered exactly on the star Alpha Draconis (also called Thuban), the brightest star in the constellation. This portion of the Dragon is depicted as attempting to encoil the constellation Ursa Minor which was originally called the "little flock", or "little sheepfold", namely the faithful remnant of Israel or the people of God. We find this exact picture written in the prose of the book of Revelation, Chapter 12, describing events yet to be enacted in human history! That is, the most devastating battle of all is yet to be fought on earth and in space ("the heavens"). The pole star today is of course Polaris in Ursa Minor and will next enter the constellation Cepheus, which constellation pictures God as the triumphant king over all the earth.

It is also notable that in primeval astronomy the dragon's head is shown as being crushed under the foot of a hero who at the same time is using a club to beat to death the Hydra who has stolen the fruit of immortality. Head to head with this hero, set in mirror-image across from him is a second hero grappling with a huge snake whose gaping jaws are straining to grasp "Corona Borealis", the Crown of the North. This second hero is also crushing a vile enemy underfoot, this time it is the scorpion, yet even as he does this another scorpion bites his heel. This early configuration of the constellations around the north pole was derived from Biblical ideas about the events recorded much later in Genesis.

The Babylonian Creation Epic describes Marduk leading a rebellion of the gods against Tiamat who has planned destruction for them. The Hebrew cognate for Tiamat is TEHOM used in the Bible only to describe "the deep" upon which God moved at the beginning of creation. Later a part of the "tehom" was imprisoned within the bowels of the earth (in Jewish rabbinical tradition) and opened to release the "waters from below" at the same time the vapor canopy collapsed during the flood in order to destroy the civilization of Noah's day. This destruction is said to have come about because on excessive influence by Satan in the affairs of men, such as intermarriage with mortals producing giants on the earth with various genetic defects of a serious nature. In the Babylonian version Marduk wins and is eulogized by the other gods in a list of fifty names to which can be traced most of the gods of antiquity. This epic was read aloud every New Year's day in Babylon in front of the statue of Marduk.

New Year's Day was the most important day of the Babylonian calendar and during the ceremonies the statues of Marduk and his son Nabul were carried to a special shrine outside of the city where Marduk would prophecy and Nabul would interpret his words (the beast and false prophet imagery of Revelation l3). The statue of Marduk ands its attendant regalia were captured by conquerors several times, and their return was always connected with re-incarnation and the resumption of his rule over the earth. Marduk was the great god of war and only once in all his battles was he wounded when his helmet slipped from his head. As a result he received a fatal blow but being a god reincarnated himself. It was in his warrior aspect that he was related to Mars, the god of war.

The Bible speaks of Satan temporarily regaining rule over the earth at the end of our present age through "the beast and the false prophet". These two will "make war on the people of God" and the false prophet will proclaim himself to be God in the Third Temple in Jerusalem (see Matthew 24) at which point earth will enter a period known as "the time of Jacob's trouble" spoken of by the Hebrew prophets or the 3-1/2 year "great tribulation".At the conclusion of this catastrophic time when most life on earth is destroyed, YahuwehShua Messiah will return to the Mount of Olives to usher in a millennial kingdom during which time Satan will be "bound" and removed from influence on earth.

Is it then a coincidence that many have now come to believe that we may have found the image of an angelic malevolent being on Mars, a planet which appears to be scarred by an ancient war in the heavens? Is it a coincidence that we should find out such things as these as our own planet enters times of momentous problems beyond the capabilities of mere men to solve?

The Syllable M*R

It is remarkable that there is a syllable with the consonant value "M*R" which is found everywhere in connection with the planet Mars, the god of Mars, and its associated emblem, the dragon. The source of all these words is to be found in the Semitic roof "marah" (M*R) which in Hebrew means bitterness as well as disobedience. From this roof is derived "marad" (M*R*D), or rebellion, which is the original both of Nimrod (the Babylonian Nin-Mir-Rud), or (N*M*R*D), as well as Marduk/Merodach (M*R*D*K). The Bible tells us that Nimrod was the founder of Ninevah, and Nineveh's own half-legendary history ascribes that honor to one Ninur or Nimur (N*M*R).

Marduk was the original in both name and character of the gods Mercury (M*R*K*R) and Mars (M*R*TS) from which of course we derive the current names of these planets. It is notable that Mercury, like Mars, is also "battle-scarred".

Under the name Apsu (P*S), Marduk became Poseidon (P*S*D*N) who founded Atlantis which was named after his son Atlas (T*L*S), the Babylonian Astalluhi (S*T*L*). Atlantis was overthrown in the throes of a great war bringing destruction and dissolution upon the land. The only remnant of Atlantis was the island Hesperus (S*P*R) upon which lived a dragon in possession of the fruit of the tree of life (immortality). This fruit was stolen by the god Hercules/Melkarth (M*L*K*R*T), a pseudonym of Marduk (M*R*D*K). The people of Atlantis, called Merodes (M*R*D) were descendants of Merou (M*R) or Merod (M*R*D).

The Nubians tell of an island called Meru upon which were built pyramids by a race of red men. This legend came to the Hindus as the FIVE-SIDED mountain they call Meru (M*R) ruled over by Indra, (N-M*D*R) who was the mouthpiece of god and himself a god. He conquered seven cities and ruled over the earth in Hindu mythology. Meru was a five-sided mountain from which the heavens were suspended with the pole star as its apex. This is the reason Asian temples are built in the shape of a mountain having a flame at the summit. Here also we see Atlas who became a mountain and bore the heavens on his shoulders, relieved only once by Hercules/Melkarth.

Tibetan legend tells of the fall of the "land of seven cities" by earthquake and eruption at the fall of the star Bel (Mars). The people perished it is said because they ignored the warnings of their priest, Mu (M).

Another lost-continent myth is that of Mu or Lemuria (L*M*R) which was publicized by James Churchward in the 19th century. According to him, Mu was situated in the Pacific Ocean and bore a population of 64 million people of assorted colors and tribes. Mu sank when gas-filled caverns in the earth beneath collapsed. The survivors founded colonies in Micronesia, China and Egypt but the only place they flourished was in Central America where they are said to have produced great Indian cultures. This may seem to be an insubstantial myth until one considers a modern day popular religion, Mormonism. Mormonism is founded upon the supposed revelation to Joseph Smith of a set of golden tablets by the angel Moroni (M*R*N) who had once been a human prophet to the great cities of central America said to have been founded by refugees from the Tower of Babel (Bab-El means "the gate of god" and also "confusion"). Moroni's warnings went unheeded and so they perished, but his prophecies were supposed to have been written down and given to Smith. This Moroni, from whom the Mormons are named, identifies himself with Quetzalcoatl/Kulkulkan, the winged-serpent and hero-god who brought civilization to the Aztecs and returned home on a raft of snakes over the sea.

Written by Bryce Self

Edited 11/4/85 by Lambert Dolphin

Edited 8/10/07 by Chandler Fulton

That last post was fascinating, with lots of information most people are totally unaware of. I attended a "Feast" last month where a lady gave a lecture on the "Signs of the Heavens". She also mentioned Draco with his tail near to Polaris (and his head going the other way), suggesting Heylel (Satan) being cast out of Heaven.

It also strongly indicates that the Greek, Roman, & other pantheons are based on real ancient "mighty ones" (i.e. fallen angels) and their hybrid offspring. "Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard" ... but "the truth is 'out there'".