posted 12-26-2001 04:59 AM            

I'm having an ongoing debate with a non-believer who seems to believe that attending a funeral overrides the observance of Shabbat. I told him that we have six days to tend to our own business, which includes taking care of burying the dead. Scripture even tells us that touching a dead body renders one unclean for Passover. I think this principle holds true for Shabbat. Am I correct?

Thank you for your anticipated responses.

Blessings,

posted 12-26-2001 10:07 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Mesobaite:
If we observe Yahweh's Shabbat then we wouldn't bury our dead on that day to begin with. The problem comes when our loved one's, who may have never kept Yahweh's Shabbat, are buried on Saturday. They do this in reverence to their g-d and his Sunday rest day. Why should we pay homage to their customs if we keep Yahweh's Shabbat?

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I agree Mesobaite.

I have been invited to visit the family, but no date for the funeral has yet been set. If it is on Shabbat, I simply will not attend, because as you have stated, Yahweh's Shabbat is to be observed on that date. It appears the concept is that one can go to both the funeral AND to the house of worship on the same day, which is what I believe Sunday-keepers do.

Thank you Mesobaite.

Blessings,

Riyah

posted 12-27-2001 04:29 AM         

For the record, I speak as a relative newcomer to Sabbath and Torah observance. However, I would ask myself, was the deceased important to me or would my not going affect a relationship with someone I cared for? If so, I would probably go and pay proper respects. On a more personal note, I was called by a non-observant friend recently late on a Sabbath evening. They had gotten drunk and I felt no reservation in picking them up and giving them a safe ride home. Yahshua asked would we not go save one of our sheep if it fell in a ditch on the Sabbath.

I have come to feel it is acceptable to do certain things on Sabbath when done out of love, compassion and respect for our fellow man. However, I have come to feel each of us must work these situations out in our own conscience.

Howler

posted 12-27-2001 07:34 AM            

Shalom glitchh,

"LOVE" (Agape, YHWH's love)? The word "love is used so often it has become, in some cases, meaningless-- utterly empty. Many KILL for "love." Case in point, September 11, 2001, all in the LOVE FOR "ALLAH." The evil one is PERVERTING the whole meaning of the word love. We must be careful not to become wishy-washy, mushy, or luke warm, which is no better than "fanatical" in our law keeping.

Well lets take a look at love, according to Messiah Yahushua:

Luke 9: 59-60 reads, "And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. Yahushua said unto him, Let the dead (spiritually dead), bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of YHWH."

So, love is first unto YHWH, and secondly unto our fellow man. Whenever man's ways are in conflict with YHWH's laws, then there is no contest as to who we must obey.

It is always a very difficult task when dealing with relatives and friends who are not in the Way. But then we must choose who we will serve to be ultimately found worthy.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Blessings,

Riyah

posted 12-27-2001 08:01 AM            

For the record, I speak as a relative newcomer to Sabbath and Torah observance. However, I would ask myself, was the deceased important to me or would my not going affect a relationship with someone I cared for?

>>>>>Shalom Howler,

Welcome to Shabbat and Torah observance. I hope you meet many encouraging brethren, on and off the Internet.

>>>>>I think a better question would be, is YHWH important to me, or would my going or not going affect the relationship with YHWH, who I care for?

On a more personal note, I was called by a non-observant friend recently late on a Sabbath evening. They had gotten drunk and I felt no reservation in picking them up and giving them a safe ride home. Yahshua asked would we not go save one of our sheep if it fell in a ditch on the Sabbath.

I have come to feel it is acceptable to do certain things on Sabbath when done out of love, compassion and respect for our fellow man. However, I have come to feel each of us must work these situations out in our own conscience.

>>>>>Scripture tells us that a man's ways seem right in his own eyes, but the end thereof is death. Be careful going with conscience. If conscience cannot be solidly backed up with YHWH's Word, it has to be wrong.

However, what you speak of in your message was a correct decision that was made. You were simply doing a righteous deed on Shabbat evening. It is possible you saved their lives by your kindness, which is exactly what Messiah was referring to.

My question was an either/or, (whether to succumb to the wishes of friends and/or relatives and go to a funeral INSTEAD of the House of YHWH on Shabbat). You see, Howler, relatives and friends who are non-believers rarely (if ever) change THEIR schedule to accommodate Shabbat observant persons so that believers may attend their activities. The choice is THEIRS.

One is a servant to whom he/she obeys.

Blessings,

Riyah

posted 12-27-2001 02:04 PM         

I can always sense the "hath Yahweh said" sindrome that the devil eludes through our loved ones. Oh its Ok you can come to my wedding on Saturday Yahweh won't mind (usually said with a giggling condesending smile). I say again if they have so much respect for their god to respect his day (Sunday) and not get married or burried on that day then we should be ashamed to even debate this matter to this extent.

And for those who call on love remember without Yahweh there is no love for Yahweh is love. And he says emphatically in scripture "if you love me keep my commandments". Case closed.

Psalm 20:7 - "Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of Yahweh our Elohim."

The Mesobaite

posted 12-27-2001 10:42 PM            

"And for those who call on love remember without Yahweh there is no love for Yahweh is love. And he says emphatically in scripture "if you love me keep my commandments". Case closed."

As I stated before, the great commandment is to love Yahweh and your brother/neighbor, are you listening, this is the great commandment, the first if you like, as taught by Yeshua. Is it right to break it inorder to keep other commandments? What is Yahweh's nature, is it not love? You guys can minimize that if you like but I think you're making a very religious mistake in doing so and risk putting yourselves in the clanging gong catagory. If you can't/won't keep the Great Commandment why bother yourself with the others?

Also, how often are you asked to attend a funeral on the Sabbath?
Do you expect people who are hurting to plan their whole lives around your Sabbath keeping? It's really not all about you!!!!
People have their own lives and their own values and beliefs and I would expect that few if any plan their events for the purpose of insulting your Sabbath beliefs. Self righteous law keeping is what the Lord campaigned against and turning our modern Torah Observant Faith into that is missing much of what Yeshua's life was all about. The Living Torah has to be our ultimate guide and authority. And picking out scriptures like Luke 9:59 where some guy wants to go live with his father until he passes away, perhaps years hense, is not a proof text for this discussion.
This person wanted to go live a normal life and become a disciple when it was convient, i.e. when he'd gotten his inheritance. We on the other hand want to be disciple now, today, and I just see love for the hurting and the possible ministry one could provide to these people as keeping the commandments better than a narrow law keeping approach.
Shalom, Glitchh

posted 12-27-2001 11:42 PM            

You have a right to your opinions. I must, however, respectfully agree to disagree.

Blessings,

posted 12-28-2001 04:21 AM            

Glitchh, if a steaming pork roast was placed in front of you by a close friend and they asked you to eat, would you eat it just to ensure you didn't "hurt" their feelings?

If your boss demanded you work on Sabbath for no other reason than increaced productivity, would you concede to him?

If your own mother asked you to partake in Easter with her and your family, a celebration that is distastefully pagan and commercial with no pure spiritual source, would you?

My answers are no. I would never sell my soul just to save another from pain. A process such as this is not valiant, or honorable.

posted 12-28-2001 07:52 AM            

"As for Torah Observance, you either observe it or you do not. To label an observer as fanatical will make you feel more secure where you are. I warn you, there is no security in anything, save YHWH."

>>>>>Shalom Talmid, Meso, and Brethren,
The above statement is simple and plain, to be accepted or rejected. YHWH has given all of us free will. There is no inbetween. It is an either/or situation.

I believe YHWH has allowed the event of 9/11/2001 as a wake-up call to the nations, and believers as well; (Torah and Anti-Torah) to check out our "attitude gear." Sometimes it needs a little oiling. No matter how much knowledge we THINK we have, the wrong attitude can jeopardize our journey to the kingdom.

A very warm thanks to all who have contributed to this thread.

Blessings,

Riyah

posted 12-28-2001 04:49 PM         

quote:

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Originally posted by Riyah:
Welcome to Shabbat and Torah observance. I hope you meet many encouraging brethren, on and off the Internet.

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Shalom Riyah,

Thank you for the kind words. I have met many and learn something new each day it seems. In truth, I could not answer your original question without knowing more about the situation. I believe each situation calls for us to look at it and consider whether performing it would glorify Yahweh or helping to fulfill His desires. This can often be a judgment call which is where I feel we can get off track.

Of course, as Talmid asks, I would not eat a ham or celebrate easter to appease another. But if I had been working with a disabled child who had passed away, I would feel right going to a funeral to pay last respects on a Sabbath even though his parents were not observant and scheduled it in such a way. I also would feel right going to the shelter on Sabbath and helping feed the homeless.

Perhaps I let my emotions still guide me somewhat, perhaps even a little too much on occasion. I don't feel there is a proper response for a general situation always, but that we must examine each situation asking ourselves whether it would be spiritually beneficial or ministerial to ourselves or others and thereby showing the glory of Yahweh through our actions.

I still struggle with many issues and am always open to rebuke and correction, but I am learning thanks to prayer and to many thoughtful words posted on these forums by yourself and others.

Many blessings to you and all others here as Shabbat approaches.

posted 12-28-2001 05:07 PM         

My family and I have kept Sabbath for over 20 years. We have chosen not to attend funerals,weddings, or other social events which detract from the Sabbath. Thankfully the majority of our friends are also Sabbath keepers, our extended family is very small. When my mom passed away (I'm an only child) I arranged the funeral on Sunday. Her few living relitives (Catholic)all attended. She was a believer so there was no mass. If they were offended they did not state it.

One thing I have see in Sabbath keepers which I find very discouraging. They actually arrange funerals for their loved one on Sabbath. Sometimes the desiesed was actually a Sabbath keeper. We have found they get more upset with you when you don't attend their events Funerals, weddings, graduation parties which they arrange on Sabbath then the non sabbath keepers.

Interesting!!!

posted 12-28-2001 06:59 PM            

Thank you for the kind words.

>>>>>You are welcome Howler.

I have met many and learn something new each day it seems. In truth, I could not answer your original question without knowing more about the situation. I believe each situation calls for us to look at it and consider whether performing it would glorify Yahweh or helping to fulfill His desires. This can often be a judgment call which is where I feel we can get off track.

>>>>>Good point. It is easy to "get off track" or compromise, inadvertently allowing our own standard of right and wrong to be applied as each situation occurs. While it is true that no two circumstances are exactly alike, and at times a judgment call may be required, we must be careful to use YHWH's standard, to make the right judgment call. I believe a common problem to many believers is discerning whether a given situation really requires a judgment call. If we are not careful, too many judgment calls may become excuses to disobey.

I still struggle with many issues and am always open to rebuke and correction,

>>>>>Actually, we all struggle, but not all of us are as open as you to rebuke and correction. I admire your humble spirit.

but I am learning thanks to prayer and to many thoughtful words posted on these forums by yourself and others.

>>>>>Praise YHWH!!

Many blessings to you and all others here as Shabbat approaches.

Likewise, Howler.

Blessings,

Riyah