posted 05-04-2001 09:10 PM            

However, regarding the post there is no certain evidence that the gospels were originally written in greek, or there would be little to no dissention on the topic.

Is it not possible that the originals were written in Hebrew, then translated to Greek for the gentiles?

Why isn't the name Yahushua in the Greek manuscripts? Apparently you can't write Yahushua in Greek.

"In any case, the evidence for the Gospels originally being written in Hebrew or Aramaic just doesn't stack up."

I will never settle for theories attempting to be passed as truth. Ever.

In truth,
Talmid.

posted 05-04-2001 10:48 PM            

Richard7, thanks for pointing out about Palestine not being the name of the promised land. The fact is, Palestine comes from the word Philistine. I sure do prefer Israel!

Yahushua said to the Samaritan woman at the well...

John 4:22 - Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Yehudim (Jews).

I wonder if that is why churchianity is so adamant about the new testament being originally written in Greek? That way, they can say that they have the authority to call the Heavenly Father "Lord" which is what the name Baal means, thus breaking the 3rd commandment, not to take the name of YHWH in vain. And they call His Son by a corrupted name that has no power to save.

Acts 4:12 - Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

If the New Testament was originally written in Hebrew, which I am convicted that it was, then people will still be obligated to follow the Law of YHWH and to honor Him by His true name, and by the Name that He gave to His Son Yahushua.

Joshua 24:14 - Now therefore fear YHWH, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the elohim which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye YHWH.
Joshua 24:15 - And if it seem evil unto you to serve YHWH, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the elohim which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the elohim of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve YHWH.

YermeYah

posted 05-05-2001 01:37 AM            

I'll make the answer really easy, just fill in the blank int his sentence:

posted 05-05-2001 05:43 AM            

You quoted me, and changed it like this:

When Paul, while writing his epistles in Greek (e.g. Romans, 1 Corinthians etc) referred to the Son of God by name, he wrote down the name YHUSHU` (although you used a graphic image) with Hebrew letters.

But clearly the way you've changed this statement is nonsense. Why would Paul while writing "in Greek" use Hebrew letters?

You then asked me what word Paul used for the name YHWH. Well, the manuscripts show us (in back and white!) that he used the word Kurios. This is also the word used in the Septuagint, the Scriptures Paul quoted from. This is simple truth.

Now, you say that this breaks the commandment regarding the use of the Lord's name? But I beg to differ. I suggest that the commandment means that one must not use His name for a VAIN PURPOSE. For example you must not swear falsely by His name, for that would dishonour it. Paul obviously didn't see himself as a lawbreaker for using Kurios as he did.

Shalom
Glenn

PS - I apologise if my postings appear to be unmeek - but I don't see my comments tpwrds those who are sincere towards me as being anything other than honest, sincere and peaceable.

posted 05-05-2001 05:50 AM            

Earlier, in defence of the general consensus that Paul's letters were written in Greek, I pointed out that the earliest Manuscripts of his writing that we have are in Greek, not Aramaic (or Hebrew).

You responded by saying:

quote:

---

1. The oldest complete Greek NT mss. date to the 4th cent.
2. The oldest complete Aramaic NT mss. date to the 4th cent.

---

True, and point well taken. But note that I never denied this. What you're talking about are ENTIRE New Testament copies. I'm only talking about New Testament manuscripts. And I assume you are aware that the oldest NT manuscripts are in fact in Greek.

You also added:

quote:

---

Until the Dead Sea Scriolls were discobered in 1947 the oldest copies of any Tanak (Olt Testament) books were Greek LXX mss and the oldest Hebrew copies only dated to the middle ages. But no one would have agrued a Greek origion on that basis.

---

Again you are correct. And while at first it might sound like an effective counter example, there is a good reason why the two cases are not the same. At the time the earlier parts of the Tanakh were written, the people group (i.e. the Hebrews) did not have access to the Greek language! In addition, there were already historical accounts of the translation of the Tanakh INTO Greek from Hebrew. We have no such accounts regarding the New Testament.

posted 05-05-2001 05:53 AM            

You say:

quote:

---

Is it not possible that the originals were written in Hebrew, then translated to Greek for the gentiles?

---

Of course it is. It also possible that the Gospels were written in Egyptian by early converts and THEN translated into Greek and Hebrew. The theoretical POSSIBILITIES are endless, I suppose. But the question for truth-seekers is: Which way does the evidence point?

posted 05-05-2001 07:58 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Theonomy:

Now, you say that this breaks the commandment regarding the use of the Lord's name? But I beg to differ. I suggest that the commandment means that one must not use His name for a VAIN PURPOSE. For example you must not swear falsely by His name, for that would dishonour it. Paul obviously didn't see himself as a lawbreaker for using Kurios as he did.

---

The following study can be found on Eliyah's Home Page.

Many take the third commandment to mean that we should not curse Yahweh's name. It certainly does mean this. However it also means that we should not replace His name with a substitute such as "the Lord"

Deut 5:11 (av) Thou shalt not take the name of Yahweh thy Elohim in vain <7723>: for Yahweh will not hold [him] guiltless that taketh his name in vain <7723>.

The number after the word "vain" in this passage refers to Strong's word #7723 in the Hebrew Lexicon. This Hebrew word is "Shav" which means desolating, vain, vanity, or falsehood. Now let us look here in these same ten commandments where we will find this same Hebrew word but it is translated differently:

Deut 5:20 (av) Neither shalt thou bear false <7723> witness against thy neighbour.

Here we have the same Hebrew word <7723> translated false! Now what have people done to Yahweh's name? It has been falsified! It has been taken out of the way thereby making it vain. Therefore, the third commandment could easily be translated:

"Thou shalt not falsify the name of Yahweh thy Elohim: for Yahweh will not hold (him) guiltless that falsifies His name"

So if we want to keep the ten commandments, we should never replace Yahweh's name with a false one. Doing so would be breaking the third commandment.

END STUDY

Now if using a false name is indeed breaking the commandment, then Paul would be breaking a commandment in doing so, which he would not do. By this we realise that he cannot have used the word Kurios.

The cornerstone in this argument is the definition of the third commandment. If you disagree, then prove this definition wrong.

In Truth,
Talmid.

posted 05-05-2001 11:11 AM            

But clearly the way you've changed this statement is nonsense. Why would Paul while writing "in Greek" use Hebrew letters?

unquote.

1) because he could.

2) because he should.

3) because he did.

But Glenn what makes you so sure that the original letters of Paul did NOT have them? because we have the watered down and doctored versions
of copies from copies, handed down via the Holy Catholic Church?
Mmmmm, not such reliable source if you ask me.
I think that you have become the victim of the law of the 'first mentioning'. You know, the first teaching one receives has the most bearing, and we tend to defend it with our lives? For otherwise..... you have to change your tune. And who knows how many people and times you have told them your 'learned and inherited' opinion. It would be humble pie to tell them you were wrong. Besides all the other truths you have to accept which would be looked upon as if you have ' lost it', or 'have been backslidden' from your traditional religion.

Come Glenn,.... lets not argue... but lets pray:

Dear heavenly Father, who's name is YHWH and who's name is ONE, King of the Universe, We are calling for your Kingdome to be in our midst, and for us to understand your Kingdom policies and your Kingdom Laws.
We pray for your Holy Spirit to guide our thoughts, and convict us of wrong, to shed light upon this topic as what the TRUE name is of your Only Begotten Son.
Which name did YOU give Your Son,
Jesus, Isous, or Yahushua? For YOU are His Father and He is your SON and Your WORD. We stand against worldly cover-ups and falsifications, and speak against 'the tongue's that is not your tongue, even the lies of the devil. We pray YOU settle disputes and arguments, and put conviction in our spirits as to what to accept here as YOUR truth versus 'near truths'. We thank you Father that You are no respecter of persons and we pray a special blessing upon Glenn from Auckland New Zealand who you have sent among us for Your reason, for we are al equal in your sight. We pray this for we love your truth, much more than the glorie or acceptance of the world. Glorify your son here amongst us as you are Glorified in our midst, and we pray this in his name even the name of Yahushua ha Messiach believing that we have what we ask in his name, Thank you Abba.
omein

posted 05-06-2001 10:53 PM            

"It was about 15 years that my wife and I came up with the same word study
and concluded that Jesus meant the pig. Since it would be hard hitting to
any Christian we held back from ever telling anyone cause we felt it would
be insulted any and all Christians and they would not want to hear from us
any more. We felt we must be more gentle with people. We should be out to
gain them not destroy them."

----------> "not destroy them" <----------

_____________
Me:

Isaiah 66:17
They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens
behind one tree in the midst,

----------> [eating swine's flesh], (PIG MEAT)

and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed (destroyed)
together, saith YAHHU UL.

>>>>------------> "[shall be consumed (destroyed) together]"

Do most je/sus people eat swine/pig meat?______Yes______No

Br Bill, why does YAHHU want to destroy ----> these "PIG MEAT EATERS"?
Or should they be pampered to?

From Isa.66:17,

>>>>------------> "[shall be consumed (destroyed) together]"

It don't sound to me that YAHHU wants to pamper these
pig eating je/sus people.

_________
Note:
This is from Jozef's post.

"But Glenn what makes you so sure that the original
letters of Paul did NOT have them? because we have
the watered down and doctored versions of copies from
copies, handed down via the Holy Catholic Church?
Mmmmm, not such reliable source if you ask me."

Br Bill, The --> [Catholic church] used/uses the Latin language.
The following verses are from the Latin Bible, and this is where the
christian people got their False Messiah's name --> je/sus.

Matthew 24:24

For -----> [false Christs] and false prophets will appear and perform
great signs and miracles to ---> [deceive even the elect]
if that were possible.

From Latin bible:

Matthew 1:16
Iacob autem genuit Ioseph virum Mariae de qua

natus est ---> "Iesus" qui vocatur

Mark 2:5
cum vidisset autem -----> [Iesus] fidem illorum ait paralytico
fili dimittuntur tibi

Mark 9:26

"Iesus autem tenens manum eius elevavit illum et"

-------> [Ie/sus]

"Ie/sus" in Latin (i.e.) means => "that is", and sus means => "pig"
which you already know.
So what we end up with is "i.e." or --> "THE/PIG".

_________________
You said:

As our Saviour said "You shall Love your neighbor as yourself" (Matt.22:39) and when I was a Christian and calling
on the name of Jesus, I surely would not have liked anyone telling me that I was callling the son a pig.

Br. Bill, in todays parlance its called ---> [tough love].

Isaiah 58:1
Cry aloud, ----> [spare not], lift up --> [thy voice]
like a --> [trumpet], and ---> [show my people]
their ----> [transgression], and the house of Jacob their --> [sins].

Heb.4:12
4:12 For the word of YAHHU UL is living and active and sharper than
any double-edged sword, piercing even to the point of dividing soul from
spirit, and joints from marrow; it is able to judge the desires and
thoughts of the heart.
___________
You said:

Now, we have our doubts about Jesus meaning the pig being of a true
translation.
In the mean time a brother called us recently and said that he did a study
and found that Jesus means Healer. In turn that would render the name
"Jesus Christ" as "the Anointed Healer" in the Greek language. Any comments
on this?

Matthew 24:24

For -----> [false Christs] and false prophets will appear and perform
great signs and ---> [miracles] to ---> [deceive even the elect]
if that were possible.
____________
You said:

I am sure that all Christians would rather hear, "the anointed healer"
rather than "the anointed pig" or "the pig, anointed". Oh! How ugly.
________
Me:

"Oh! How ugly"

Isaiah 30:10
Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy [not] unto
us -----> [right things], speak unto us ------> [s m o o t h things],
>>>>--------------> [prophesy deceits]:

_________
You said:

Now,I wonder where do we go from here with the name "Jesus"?

<> MN Marlin

posted 05-09-2001 11:26 PM            

Surely I will not agree with the name jesus no matter what the true meaning of the name is either in the Greek or the Latin language. At one time I thought jesus was the correct name. I did not eat pork or anything that contained pig meat in it or was made from pig. Neither did anyone else in the church that I attended. Yet, we were (as you put it ) Jesus people.

You asked:
Do most Jesus people eat swine/pig meat? Unless you have some statistics (proof) on this I don’t think anyone could give a correct answer. We can not say that all Jesus people ( as you put it) eat swine (pig meat) if we do say that then we breaak the following commandment found in
Deut.5:20
“You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor”.

At this time I would like to mention something about Isaiah 66:17.
You mention that both those who eat the swine’s flesh and the abomination and the mouse; “Shall be consumed (destroyed) together”
This is true cause it says so at the end of the verse.
Yet there is another reason for them to be consumed and that is Idolatry.
They were committing Idolatry.
Notice the word Tree in the verse; i.e. the Asherah.
The Asherah was so called because it was something set upright or errect in the ground and worshipped. The word is always rendered grove or groves in the A.V. and always left as a proper name in the R.V.
(there is a lot more but I will cut it short here)

Isaiah 66:17-----is also talking about Idolatry.
Let’s read;
“Those who sanctify themselves and purify themselves,
To go to the gardens
After an Idol (Tree) (Asherah) in the midst
Eating swine’s flesh (pig meat) and the abomination (Idol) and the mouse (unclean flesh)
Shall be consumrd together,” says Yahweh.

As we study the scriptures we can see how Yahweh always punished Israel for committing Idolatry. Not to commit Isolatry is part of the Royal Law found in Deuteronomy.

Deut.5:8
“You shall not commit Idolatry”
(I have cut it short to save typing and given the overall meaning. For those who want a more detailed explanation of Idolatry read Deut.5:8-10)

The people in Isaiah 66:17, do not love Yahweh. They hate Him and they will not repent. Here, He is not talking about those who are trying to obey and obeying in ignorance but those who are Rebellious and Rebelliousness is as witchcraft. 1Samuel 15:23

You said:
“It doesn’t sound to me that Yahweh wants to pamper these pig eating Jesus people.” Also, “In today’s Parlance it is called---(Tough love)
Answer:
“But the fruit of the Spirit is; Love, Joy, Peace, Longsuffering, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness, Self Control, against which there is no Law.” Gal. 5:22

If you do not let this fruit work in you, you can not help a person see the truth. You are not edifying the Body of Yahshua. Be a light. Matt.5:14-16
Verse 16------“Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your Good works and Glorify your Father in heaven.”

You Quote Isaiah 58:1
You blatantly took this scripture out of context in order to make yourself look righteous in saying, “pig eating Jesus people”.
Isaiah 58-----is explaining how the prophet Isaiah is to tell the children of the house of Jacob their sin and not to hesitate or be afraid. It is explaining to them and all now, how to fast and what to fast for. Also not to be pointing the finger and speaking wickedness and not to do their own pleasures on the Sabbath nor speaking their own words.
It says nothing here about speaking to anyone in an offensive manner as is you saying, “ pig eating Jesus people.”

Jeremiah 9:23----Thus says Yahweh
Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom.
Nor the rich man glory in his riches;
24----But let him who glories glory in this,
That he understands and knows ME,
That I Am Yahweh, exercising Lovingkindness, Justice, and Righteousness in the earth,
For in These I Delight, says Yahweh.

You Quote from the prophets:
Are you a prophet? If not , then be peaceful, and give glory to Yahweh as previously mentioned. If it were not for Yahweh you would not know anything about His word.
If you are a prophet then go to the ones who you think are pig eating Jesus people.
Beware though, cause if you go to the Jesus people that I know, they do not eat pig.
Also----if you go to those who use the name Jesus to tell them they are calling Him pig, you must distinguish which name of Jesus you are talking about;
The Greek iesous----IeZues or
The Latin ie/sus or are they both the same?

I said:
Now I wonder where do we go from here with the name, Jesus.
What I meant was:
Do we say it is from the Latin ie/sus or do we say it is from the Greek iesous---Iezues etc. etc.?
Which one do we tell the Jesus people ( as you put it) the name Jesus is from?

Surely there is one thing we shall say to them and that is that Jesus is not the true name of the Messiah. Without offending them in any matter.
We must prove to them that the true name of the heavenly Father is Yahweh and the true name of His Son is Yahshua.
Surely Yahweh will open their minds and give them increase in knowledge of Him.

1Cor.3:6-7
6----“I planted Apollos watered but Yahweh gave the increase.
7---- “So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but Yahweh who gives the increase.”

Shalom.
Blessed are the Peacemakers for they shall be called the Sons of Yahweh.
(Matt.5:9)

BrBill

posted 05-10-2001 03:42 PM         

Great post! You are indeed a watchman!

I tried to E-mail you directly but your listed E-mail is coming up as as an invalid address when I try to send it. Let us know if there is another address we can use....Thanks!

Blessings,

Grace

posted 05-10-2001 09:20 PM            

Thanks very much for the compliment but let us all praise Yahweh for His Holy Spirit in us. HalleluYah! Without Yahweh we are nothing. We plant, we water, but Yahweh gives the increase. HalleluYah! 1Cor.3:6-7

My e-mail address is pinset00@hotmail.com maybe you typed the o key for the two 00's. Try typing the zero key for the two 00's it should work. At this time my e-mail address is working fine. If it still doesn't work let me know.

Shalom

BrBill

posted 05-12-2001 03:41 AM         

I do not know how far to take this dispute over the meaning of JESUS. What is very plain, is that it could not, by any means, be his name. In that, we all agree. Now, there is the subject of: Did the apostles use this translitered name, which, I am guessing, would then make it okay for us to use it. No one knows for certain. I know that all scholars agree that all new testament manuscripts found are copies of copies. That in itself should indicate something when considering the era of the writings. One thing that the scriptures do support is a teshuva (return) to Hebrew language: Zeph 3:9. HalleluYah!!! Then this whole thread would be superfluos. It honestly would not surprise me if Jesus did mean "the pig". Just on real level, why use such a tainted name when concering our saviour. If we know his name to be Yahshua why not use, when it holds so much meaning. To use the name alone is statement of faith: "Yah is salvation", but Jesus....?

Now, BrBill, in response to Minnesota Marlin's quote of Yashayah 65:4-5, said this passage corresponds to idolatry and not just pig eating, Jesus-people. Well.... consider this meditation I had with a bredren of mine:
Mainstream Kirkianity, with the exception of the Witnesses, hold to a trinity, believing Yahshua to be Yah, Almighty. One kirkian associate of mine even suggested that I pray to Yahshua for it would be the same as praying to Yah, since he - Yahshua - is Yah. He also suggested that I worship Yahshua as Yah. Hmmm...interesting reasoning since many kirkians walk around with a crucifix or hang of picture of "Jesus" in their living rooms. Does this imply that they have the very image of Yah dangling from their necks? Is this bearded, dirty blonde with blue eyes whom they pray to and worship...as Yah? Would this not be blatant idolatry - Dabarim 5:8-9. On top of that they nullify the Word that gives life, eating swines flesh and the broth of abominable things who say, "Keep to yourself. Do not come near me, for I am holier than you!" - Yashayah 65:5

I, honestly, do not know what to make of kirkians, as to whether they attain salvation or not. For as we all know salvaion and the reception of the Ruah HaQodesh is not through the keeping of law, but through faith. - Acts 15:8-11 without which none of us would be justified - Habakkuk 2:4. Yet, faith without works is dead,Ya'acov 2:20, show me your faith without works and I will show you my faith by my works, Ya'acov 2:18. That to me says faith leads to works (i.e. study, be doers and not just hearers). The Goyim who were turning to Yah received the Ruah, but were expected to be in the synogogue learning of Yah's Word and practicing it - ICor 5:8, I Cor 11:1-2. On one hand, I agree with Minnesota: Let's strive to separate ourselves from such apostate and heretic institutions as the Roman Catholic kirk and the certain doctrines of the Protestants ..." Thus says Yah:
Stand in the ways and see. And ask for the OLD PATHWAYS, where good is, and walk in it: Then you will find rest for your souls. But THEY said,"We will not walk in it" - Yeremyah 6:16. And on the other I definitely agree with Brbill: We must correct others in meekness, Gal 6:1. For in the end it is the Ruah that will convict the world of sin. If we are to be like Yahshua, humility is ALWAYS the approach. He didn't shove truth down anyone's throat, but spoke plainly, walking and talking with sinners. Consider what RavShaul had to put up with, being a minister to the Goyim!

LostSon
PS I would like to commend Minnesota for doing such extensive research and sharing with us. I did learn something. And also to BrBill, who definitely shows forth the Father working him and having such self control and love for those who are now where he was at one time. That is a lesson for us all.

Shalom
[This message has been edited by LostSon (edited 05-12-2001).]

[This message has been edited by LostSon (edited 05-12-2001).]

posted 05-13-2001 01:44 AM            

Excellent point Naomi,