I would like to answer the response you gave to my previous posting. You wrote the following:

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No doubt, the type leavening Yeshua described in Matthew 16 is not desirable, but it is not correct to say that to eat leavened bread for the Memorial Supper means that one is using the leaven bread as the type Yeshua described in Matthew 16. It definitely could be the leaven Yeshua described as the Kingdom of Heaven, in Matthew 13:33. Yeshua taught us that the kingdom of Yahweh is within (Luke 17:21), and when we allow this light of the kingdom to shine forth in a dark world (Matthew 5:16) it has the capability of "mixing" into the unleavened world; i.e. the world without the leaven of the kingdom.

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I reply: Two things:

(1) You say, "It definitely could be the leaven that Yeshua described as the Kingdom of Heaven." Of course, you realize this also means it "might not" be the leaven that Yeshua described as the Kingdom of Heaven! I wonder which of us is doing the most presuming here? While I agree that you can make something noble out of nearly anything, I believe the overall symbolism of leavening is that of sin/false teaching, so I maintain the leaven of Matthew 16:12 and I Corinthians 5:6-8 (malice and wickedness) prevails over the interpretation that you promote, especially since the latter passage involves a direct reference to Messiah.

(2) As you well know, the Feast of Unleavened Bread was about to begin. This was the time to remove all the leavening from the homes. Do you ever wonder why this is to be done? Just what exactly do you believe the purpose behind removing the leavening is? Is it only to serve as a reminder of the haste in which the Israelites left Egypt? Or is it also a reminder of "the leaven of malice and wickedness" (I Cor. 5:8)?

So maybe ... possibly ... at any other time of the year I might appreciate your point that leavening can, in certain isolated situations, be used to represent something noble, and therefore this means Yeshua's body is best represented by leavened bread. It is highly, highly unlikely that I would ever appreciate your point, even under those circumstances, at some random time of the year, but for argument's sake I will say that maybe I might! But at Passover??? YHWH FORBID!

And remember: The point made in the text of I Corinthians 5:6-8 by the Apostle Shaul is that we are to purge out the "old leaven" FOR (because) Messiah our passover is sacrificed for us. The Apostle Shaul recognized that Yeshua's sacrifice was one of purity ... without leaven. Yet you teach your followers that He wants us to remember His body with leavened bread???

Here is what "leavened bread" represents, at least at Passover time: malice and wickedness. If this is how you wish to remember Yeshua, then you and I have diametrically opposing views of His role as Messiah.

Here is what "unleavened bread" represents, at least at Passover time: sincerity and truth. This is how I wish to remember Yeshua, regardless of how anyone else here wishes to do it.

In spite of what the Apostle Shaul wrote regarding leavened bread in I Corinthians 5, you make it plain that using leavened bread for the Master's Supper is, in your view, perfectly fitting and acceptable:

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Someone who uses leaven bread for the Master's Supper is not wishing to consider Yeshua as a sinner. That would be like me saying that someone who uses unleavened bread for the Master's Supper wishes to consider Yeshua an affliction (Deuteronomy 16:3); I would never make such an accusation. I understand the Scriptures to teach both a positive and negative connotation to both leavened and unleavened bread.

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I reply: Your analogy about considering Yeshua as an "affliction" (Deut. 16:3) doesn't work because, for one thing, I believe you misinterpret the text of that verse. If this is how you understand the intent of that verse, then all I can say is, you must observe a miserable Feast of Unleavened Bread each year! We eat the "bread of affliction" with joy because it is a remembrance and acknowledgement that our ancestors were once slaves in Egypt, but we celebrate the deliverance. It's been said that we cannot really appreciate the celebration unless we experience the pain of humiliation. This is why we are to eat the "bread of affliction" during the feast, not because we are to experience affliction, but to remember and appreciate the victory.

Indeed, in this sense, we can even appreciate Yeshua as the "bread of affliction," as He was afflicted for us, suffering because of our sins ... but He has delivered us from the bondage of sin, and for that we can celebrate. So Matthew, if you wish to "accuse" me of considering Yeshua the "bread of affliction," that would be just fine by me.

You also wrote:

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There is nothing in Scripture that says the shewbread was unleavened bread, although you did show a quotation from both Philo and Josephus which, using them, definitely lends credence to the idea that the shewbread was unleavened bread.

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I reply: While there may be nothing in Scripture plainly stating that the shewbread was unleavened, conversely, there is nothing stating that it wasn't. You seem to presume that since there is no Scripture stating that it definitely was leavened, thus must mean it wasn't. I believe this is a mistake.

I am definitely persuaded that if I hadn't supplied the quotes from Philo and Josephus you would be promoting the shewbread as being leavened. In fact, this is precisely what it appears you attempted to do with your citing of 1 Chronicles 23:28-29 (otherwise, why did you cite it?). With all due respect, Matthew, I believe Philo and Josephus had a much better understanding of Hebrew and Greek than either you or I, and it was their understanding that the word "artos" can indeed be used as a reference to unleavened bread. 21st century scholars who place their understanding of Greek and Hebrew above the understanding of 1st century scholars simply do not sway me.

Furthermore, I have just now read Chuck Baldwin's posting in which he plainly shows that Yeshua broke bread ("artos") while it was still the Feast of Unleavened Bread. If this doesn't persuade you of the fact that "artos" was used in reference to unleavened bread, then nothing will. And if you still insist that the "artos" of the Master's Supper was leavened, then I can only regard your treatment of Messiah as being in line with the leavening of I Cor. 5:6-8.

You also wrote:

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I do find it interesting that 1 Chronicles 23:28-29 makes a distinction between the shewbread and the unleavened cakes by saying:

Because their office was to wait on the sons of Aaron for the service of the house of Yahweh, in the courts, and in the chambers, and in the purifying of all holy things, and the work of the service of the house of Elohim; Both for the showbread, and for the fine flour for meat offering, and for the unleavened cakes, and for that which is baken in the pan, and for that which is fried, and for all manner of measure and size

What do you think of this?

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I reply: First, as I have established, both Philo and Josephus understood "artos" as being used in reference to unleavened shewbread, and I still maintain that their knowledge of Hebrew and Greek was superior to yours and mine put together. Thus, regardless of how you choose to define "artos," the fact is, it can be used in reference to unleavened bread. The distinction between the shewbread and the unleavened cakes does not in any way validate anyone's attempt to demonstrate that the shewbread was leavened.

Secondly, as I hope you understand, shewbread wasn't the only unleavened bread that was kept "before YHWH" (Lev. 2:4, 8:26, Numbers 6:19). Thus, just because some cakes were referred to as being unleavened does not mean the shewbread wasn't. As I have plainly shown in my previous posting, the ancients understood the shewbread as being unleavened, and I agree with them.

You also wrote:

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Why do you believe the leavened bread offered in sacrifice was only representative of the saints in Revelation 14:4, and not also Yeshua in 1 Corinthians 15:20, who is also called the firstfruits? Seeing that Yeshua is called the firstfruits in 1 Corinthians 15:20 there seems to be just as much right to say the leaven of Leviticus 23:17 is representative of him, especially seeing that 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 mentions him rising on the third day according to the Scriptures.

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I reply: I believe there is more than one "harvest." Yeshua is referred to as the firstfruit (singular noun) in I Corinthians 15:20. This is the unleavened bread for the firstfruits wave offering of Lev. 23:10-14. I believe the leaven of Leviticus 23:17 (at Pentecost) represents the saints who, though sinners, have been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb. If you wish to believe otherwise, this is your prerogative, but I am inclined to disagree with you!

Further demonstrating that there is more than one "firstfruits harvest" is reflected by the fact that Yeshua Himself is the one doing the harvesting of the "leavened firstfruits" (Rev. 14:4, 14-16) .

You continue:

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It appears to me, Larry, that you are making the mistake of reading "sin" into everywhere the word leaven appears in the Bible. This is not correct. You should only see "leaven of sin" if the context depicts the leaven as such, as in Matthew 16. Leviticus 7:13; 23:17; & Matthew 13:33 all show positive aspects of leaven - good leaven. When Yeshua enters into our lives through accepting him as Master and Savior (Rom. 10:9-10) he (the good leaven) raises us up to walk in newness of life (Rom. 6:1-5).

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I reply: And I believe you make the mistake of not understanding the Apostle Shaul's plain reference to Yeshua, our passover, as being represented by the purging of leavening, not the incorporation of it. Your attempt to embellish leavening as being representative of Yeshua's body simply does not mesh with what the Apostle Shaul wrote in I Cor. 5:6-8. I will not deny that we can find positive aspects of leavening, but NOT when it comes to representing the body of Yeshua.

You concluded:

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In conclusion, to memorialize Yeshua's body with leavened bread is not sinful at all, no more than using unleavened bread means you believe he is an affliction (Deut. 16:3) to you. All debate could have ceased had the Greek word azumos been used in reference to the Master's Supper, but rather the word artos was used, and the word artos can, and at least for the most part does refer to leavened bread.

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I reply: I completely disagree with you. Furthermore, as I stated previously, if you wish to refer to Yeshua as my "bread of affliction," then you go right ahead!!! In fact, I'll help you: Yeshua is my "bread of affliction"!!

IF I were to somehow become persuaded of your position, I would always have this nagging doubt in my mind about the word "artos." Knowing that it can be used in reference to any kind of bread, including unleavened bread, I would be faced with making the choice between leavened or unleavened bread. With unleavened bread, I would know I couldn't go wrong, as I know of NO negative attributes relating to unleavened bread (in spite of your attempt to turn it into "affliction"). As for the leavened bread that you prefer, there would always be that nagging reminder of the negative attributes as mentioned by Yeshua Himself, as well as the "leaven of malice and wickedness" mentioned by the Apostle Shaul.

I choose to go for the "unleavened bread of sincerity and truth" (I Cor. 5:8).

Finally, I believe Chuck Baldwin's excellent point seals the matter. There should be no doubt that it was still the Feast of Unleavened Bread when Yeshua broke the "artos" after His resurrection (Luke 24:30). Would those who insist that the "artos" He broke with His disciples at the Master's Supper was leavened make the same claim about the "artos" of Luke 24:30?

One more thing: You told John:

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I have yet to see anything conclusive in Scripture that shows artos to mean unleavened bread. I think Yahweh put (by His Spirit) a distinct difference between the terms artos and azumos.

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I reply: So you believe Yeshua broke leavened bread during the Feast of Unleavened Bread in Luke 24:30?

I believe what believers have done by misinterpreting and misapplying the meaning of "artos" is a classic example of how easily folks get off on the wrong track with this and other misapplications of Scriptural texts. The list is long. I'm not saying I have all the right answers, as I know I have a lot of learning and growing to do, but I am saying we need to be more careful.

May YHWH bless!

Love in Messiah,
Larry

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In reviewing my last posting, I noticed that I didn't answer one of your questions, so I'll answer it now:

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Please give a Scripture which states that Yeshua is representative of the temple shewbread.

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I reply: I don't recall insisting that there is such a Scripture. This is my interpretation based upon my understanding of Scripture. Perhaps my interpretation is flawed. If so, I would appreciate someone, such as you, demonstrating as much. I would certainly like to read your understanding of what the shewbread represents.

Take care and may YHWH bless!

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I reply: I do not see this woman in Matthew 13 symbolizing a false religious system. As you mentioned further down in your post, the parable of the mustard seed is mentioned directly before this parable concerning leaven. Yeshua speaks of a mustard seed being the smallest of all seeds, yet after it is sown it becomes larger than all other herbs, and becomes a tree. Do you honestly think this mustard seed symbolizes evil? I cannot see how this could be, when the parallel passages in Matthew 17:20 and Luke 17:6 speak of believers needing to have faith as a grain of a mustard seed, obviously a good thing. We may also note both Mark 4:30-31 and Luke 13:18-19 which show that the mustard seed depicts something good and not something evil.

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Mt.17:20 and Luke 17:6 are not "parallel passages" to Mt.13:31,32. They are simply teachings using the size of the mustard seed as an aid to understanding. They are not parables and have nothing to do with the Kingdom of Heaven in the way Mt.13 does.

As for the mustard seed in Mt.13, I do NOT believe it depicts something evil. It is the "birds of the air" that depict the evil that resides in the tree. The birds are parallel to the tares, the leaven and the unwanted bad fish. Birds are spoken of in an evil sense in Rev.18:2; " . . .Babylon the great is fallen . . .and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird." This verse seems to use birds to represent evil spirits. Satan is called, "the prince of the power of the air" (Eph.2:2). He rules over the "foul spirits" and "unclean and hateful birds" (demons) of the air. They are the "birds of the air".

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The same would then apply for the parable that goes right along with the mustard seed - the parable of the leaven. It is the Kingdom of Heaven that is like leaven; not wickedness that is like leaven and inserted into the Kingdom, but the Kingdom itself is like leaven. I feel that commentator Adam Clark comments on this verse well when he writes:

The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven — On the nature and effects of leaven, see the note on Exodus 12:8. As the property of leaven is to change, or assimulate to its own nature, the meal or dough with which it is mixed, so the property of the grace of Christ is to change the whole soul into its own likeness; and God intends that this principle should continue in the soul till all is leavened—till the whole bear the image of the heavenly, as it before bore the image of the earthly. Both these parables are prophetic, and were intended to show, principally, how, from very small beginnings, the Gospel of Christ should pervade all the nations of the world, and fill them with righteousness and true holiness.

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As I said previously, Messiah's entrance into a leavened heart causes it to become unleavened. He does not enter into unleavened hearts and cause them to become leavened.

I believe you are reading this parable wrongly because you are isolating the phrase "the Kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven" from the rest of the parable. It must be read as a whole. The entire Kingdom BECAME leavened because of the entrance of leaven into it. It started out unleavened, but then became corrupted by leaven.

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I reply: It is not proper to assume that Leviticus 23:17 refers to the firstfruits of men that will be resurrected. How do you know it refers to the first fruits of men? You continue to say that the leaven mentioned represents the sin in the lives of these men. How do you know this? You cite no Bible verse linking the two together.

Proper exegesis of Leviticus 23:17 would simply yield believing that this firstfruit offering of wheat, was an offering Yahweh commanded, and thus accepted. It was to be baked with leaven, showing that there is nothing inherently sinful about leaven itself.

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Lev.23:17 says of the leavened loaves; "they are the firstfruits unto Yahweh." Verse 20 says; " . . .they shall be holy to Yahweh FOR THE PRIEST." Rev.14:4 says of the 144,000; "These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto Elohim and to the Lamb (the Priest)." The 144,000 represent Yahshua's right hand men that will rule the Kingdom with him. Just as the waving of the wave sheaf of Lev.23:11 represents Yahshua's resurrection and acceptance by Yahweh, the waving of the wave loaves of Lev.23:17 represents the resurrection of the 144,000 who are seen in Rev.14:3 as standing before Yahweh's throne in heaven after their resurrection.

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I reply: Leviticus 7:13 shows that leavened bread was offered in the peace offering, therefore Yahweh accepts such an offering, as He is the one who commanded it.

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Yahweh just finished commanding them to not burn leaven on His altar in 2:11. I seriously doubt He was now telling them to burn it in 7:13. This verse must be understood in light of 2:11.

I reply: I have yet to see anything conclusive in Scripture that shows artos to mean unleavened bread.

It doesn't get much more conclusive than Luke 24:30,35. This leaves you with only one viable point; that the night he was betrayed and broke bread was before the removal of leaven at noon. Yet, noon was the suggested deadline for removal meaning it could be removed well before then. I believe searching for leaven in the last supper room was part of the "preparation" that the disciples did prior to that meal.

You wrote:

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You say, "It definitely could be the leaven that Yeshua described as the Kingdom of Heaven." Of course, you realize this also means it "might not" be the leaven that Yeshua described as the Kingdom of Heaven! I wonder which of us is doing the most presuming here? While I agree that you can make something noble out of nearly anything, I believe the overall symbolism of leavening is that of sin/false teaching, so I maintain the leaven of Matthew 16:12 and I Corinthians 5:6-8 (malice and wickedness) prevails over the interpretation that you promote, especially since the latter passage involves a direct reference to Messiah.

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My point on mentioning that leaven used for the Master's Supper could be that spoken of in Matthew 13:33 was addressed to you. You maintain that it's not so by citing Matthew 16:12 and 1 Corinthians 5:6-8. The former deals with the leaven of the Pharisees, obviously not the literal bread of the Pharisees, but their leaven, meaning their doctrine of hypocrisy (Luke 12:1). The latter deals with the Messiah, our Passover, and is referring to the Festival of Unleavened Bread which begins on the 15th day of the month Aviv (Leviticus 23:5-7).

We most definitely should not have the leaven of malice and wickedness in our lives during the Feast nor before or after the Feast. Shaul brings this up because of the situation he had just previously wrote about (1 Corinthians 5:1-5) and depicted the "puffed up" believers liken unto leaven that would leaven the entire assembly or community of believers in Corinth. They did not need this type of spiritual leaven to permeate through the assembly. They needed to get rid of this leaven, and become unleavened.

You wrote:

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As you well know, the Feast of Unleavened Bread was about to begin. This was the time to remove all the leavening from the homes. Do you ever wonder why this is to be done? Just what exactly do you believe the purpose behind removing the leavening is? Is it only to serve as a reminder of the haste in which the Israelites left Egypt? Or is it also a reminder of "the leaven of malice and wickedness" (I Cor. 5:8)?

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Yes, the Feast of Unleavened Bread would begin the following night, and all leaven had to be removed by the 15th of Aviv. Yes, I have wondered why this was to be done, and the primary reason I have found is in the Scriptures at Exodus 12:17, 25-27, 34; Deuteronomy 16:3. We eat unleavened bread to remember how the children of Israel left the land of Egypt in haste and did not have time to let their dough rise.

I would agree, based upon what Shaul wrote in 1 Corinthians 5:8 that removing leaven also entails removing the leaven of malice and wickedness from our lives, no problem. I do not, however, believe that when we bring leaven back into our homes it means we are symbolizing bringing in malice and wickedness, but those who see leaven as always representing evil and sin must believe that it has to symbolize something evil.

You wrote:

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So maybe ... possibly ... at any other time of the year I might appreciate your point that leavening can, in certain isolated situations, be used to represent something noble, and therefore this means Yeshua's body is best represented by leavened bread. It is highly, highly unlikely that I would ever appreciate your point, even under those circumstances, at some random time of the year, but for argument's sake I will say that maybe I might! But at Passover??? YHWH FORBID!

And remember: The point made in the text of I Corinthians 5:6-8 by the Apostle Shaul is that we are to purge out the "old leaven" FOR (because) Messiah our passover is sacrificed for us. The Apostle Shaul recognized that Yeshua's sacrifice was one of purity ... without leaven. Yet you teach your followers that He wants us to remember His body with leavened bread???

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I'm not saying anything about eating leaven on the 15th - 21st of Aviv, the Scriptures are very clear that we are to abstain from leaven on these days. There is nothing in Scripture, that I'm aware of, that would teach us to abstain from leaven on the 14th day of Aviv. If someone chooses to do so, I do not think it is sin, but just their choice, but I see not commandment, so it is perfectly acceptable for a person to eat leavened bread on the 14th for whatever reason. Because I do not see Yeshua's supper with his disciples as being the Passover, but rather a preparatory meal at the beginning of the 14th, it is not difficult for me to see how leavened bread could have been used without breaking any command of Yahweh. I also see how that the accounts of this meal could have used the word azumos and left no doubt as to what bread was used at this meal.

I see your point about 1 Corinthians 5:7. We are to remove the old leaven of malice and wickedness, so we might be a new lump, as we are unleavened, because Messiah our Passover was sacrificed for our sake. This is a good point you bring up Larry, that appears to show Messiah's body as representing unleavened bread. I appreciate this point from Scripture, and will study this further. I definitely do not want to do nor teach anything incorrectly, I just want to love Yahweh and do what's right.

You wrote:

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Here is what "leavened bread" represents, at least at Passover time: malice and wickedness. If this is how you wish to remember Yeshua, then you and I have diametrically opposing views of His role as Messiah.

Here is what "unleavened bread" represents, at least at Passover time: sincerity and truth. This is how I wish to remember Yeshua, regardless of how anyone else here wishes to do it.

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I see your point, respect your decision seeing you are basing it on the Bible, and will do further study, because it does make sense.

You wrote:

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Your analogy about considering Yeshua as an "affliction" (Deut. 16:3) doesn't work because, for one thing, I believe you misinterpret the text of that verse. If this is how you understand the intent of that verse, then all I can say is, you must observe a miserable Feast of Unleavened Bread each year! We eat the "bread of affliction" with joy because it is a remembrance and acknowledgement that our ancestors were once slaves in Egypt, but we celebrate the deliverance. It's been said that we cannot really appreciate the celebration unless we experience the pain of humiliation. This is why we are to eat the "bread of affliction" during the feast, not because we are to experience affliction, but to remember and appreciate the victory.

Indeed, in this sense, we can even appreciate Yeshua as the "bread of affliction," as He was afflicted for us, suffering because of our sins ... but He has delivered us from the bondage of sin, and for that we can celebrate. So Matthew, if you wish to "accuse" me of considering Yeshua the "bread of affliction," that would be just fine by me.

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My point on Deuteronomy 16:3 is that there are both positive and negative aspects of unleavened bread, just as there are with leavened bread. The word affliction in this verse is a word that means "depression, and misery". It is even translated as "trouble" in Psalms 9:3 and 31:7. Deuteronomy 26:7 also translates the word as affliction in reference to the Israelites bondage in the land of Egypt. So I do believe that unleavened bread is typed out in Deuteronomy 16:3 as the bread of misery.

Does this mean I have a miserable feast of unleavened bread? No, not at all. I enjoy this feast tremendously each and every year that I've kept it. I too celebrate the great deliverance of Israel from Egypt, and eat unleavened bread remembering how the ancient Israelites had to because of leaving Egypt in a hurry. So, I eat the bread of "affliction" but I do so to remember the deliverance just as you've stated. I also eat the unleavened bread as a type of sincerity and truth (1 Cor. 5:6-8).

My point about Yeshua being the bread of affliction was not that we should not consider him as being afflicted for our sins, but that someone might pose that Yeshua himself was an affliction based on Deuteronomy 16:3. I believe such an understanding would be way out of line, but for someone that always believe one extreme of either leaven or unleavened it would be possible. We should avoid the extremes of thinking leaven is always evil, or unleavened bread is always good.

You wrote:

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First, as I have established, both Philo and Josephus understood "artos" as being used in reference to unleavened shewbread, and I still maintain that their knowledge of Hebrew and Greek was superior to yours and mine put together. Thus, regardless of how you choose to define "artos," the fact is, it can be used in reference to unleavened bread. The distinction between the shewbread and the unleavened cakes does not in any way validate anyone's attempt to demonstrate that the shewbread was leavened.

Secondly, as I hope you understand, shewbread wasn't the only unleavened bread that was kept "before YHWH" (Lev. 2:4, 8:26, Numbers 6:19). Thus, just because some cakes were referred to as being unleavened does not mean the shewbread wasn't. As I have plainly shown in my previous posting, the ancients understood the shewbread as being unleavened, and I agree with them.

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You make a valid point. Just because the shewbread and unleavened cakes are mentioned does not mean the shewbread is leavened bread. Both Leviticus 2:4 and Numbers 6:19 mention different types of unleavened bread; the KJV puts it as "cakes" and "wafers". I also agree that both Philo and Josephus offer support that the shewbread was unleavened, thank you for this information.

You wrote:

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I believe there is more than one "harvest." Yeshua is referred to as the firstfruit (singular noun) in I Corinthians 15:20. This is the unleavened bread for the firstfruits wave offering of Lev. 23:10-14. I believe the leaven of Leviticus 23:17 (at Pentecost) represents the saints who, though sinners, have been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb. If you wish to believe otherwise, this is your prerogative, but I am inclined to disagree with you!

Further demonstrating that there is more than one "firstfruits harvest" is reflected by the fact that Yeshua Himself is the one doing the harvesting of the "leavened firstfruits" (Rev. 14:4, 14-16).

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Yeshua is referred to as the "firstfruit", singular noun in both 1 Corinthians 15:20, 23, but the exact same singular noun is used in Revelation 14:4 so nothing can be proven by the singular noun. I do believe that Yeshua is representative of the firstfruit wave offering of barley in Leviticus 23:10-14 seeing he rose the third day according to the Scriptures (1 Cor. 15:1-4), this is why I believe Yeshua rose on the first day of the week, the 16th of Aviv.

I do see your point on Revelation 14:4 and the firstfruit of the wheat harvest as it does make sense. I am not yet inclined to follow this understanding, but I am not counting it out as incorrect wholesale. Compared with the other verses you cite (Revelation 14:14-16) it appears that the firstfruit offering of the saints typifies the wheat harvest, so I do see the connection.

You wrote:

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And I believe you make the mistake of not understanding the Apostle Shaul's plain reference to Yeshua, our passover, as being represented by the purging of leavening, not the incorporation of it. Your attempt to embellish leavening as being representative of Yeshua's body simply does not mesh with what the Apostle Shaul wrote in I Cor. 5:6-8. I will not deny that we can find positive aspects of leavening, but NOT when it comes to representing the body of Yeshua.

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And I see the point you made, and appreciate your admission that there can be positive aspects to leaven. I hope to look further into this in the upcoming 2 weeks. I will set aside a couple of mornings to specifically study this, so that when next years Master's Supper comes I will not be doing anything wrong. I appreciate the time you've spent in making an attempt to persuade me to what you feel is Biblical truth, and I look forward to accepting truth or rejecting falsehood.

You also wrote:

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Finally, I believe Chuck Baldwin's excellent point seals the matter. There should be no doubt that it was still the Feast of Unleavened Bread when Yeshua broke the "artos" after His resurrection (Luke 24:30). Would those who insist that the "artos" He broke with His disciples at the Master's Supper was leavened make the same claim about the "artos" of Luke 24:30?

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Chuck does make a good point, and I've seen this verse cited before. I definitely do not believe that the bread in Luke 24 was leavened, because this was the 2nd day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. That leaves us with either seeing the artos mentioned is referring to unleavened bread, or that there is a spiritual meaning behind the artos of Luke 24:30, just like there was a spiritual meaning behind the artos of Matthew 16:12. I wil says that I can see Chucks point.

You ended by saying:

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I believe what believers have done by misinterpreting and misapplying the meaning of "artos" is a classic example of how easily folks get off on the wrong track with this and other misapplications of Scriptural texts. The list is long. I'm not saying I have all the right answers, as I know I have a lot of learning and growing to do, but I am saying we need to be more careful.

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We all have the capability of getting off track. I know that I've changed on alot of things over the years because of seeing what I felt was the error of my ways. We do need to be very careful, including yourself, because all of us are prone to error. I try to be as careful as I can, whether you believe me or not. I most assuredly do not desire to believe anything false, as I'm sure you do not. I also am not a dishonest person, and I do not believe you are either, but that doesn't make the two of us, nor anyone else, exempt from every being incorrect. May Yahweh help us all to be willing to study the Scriptures diligently and examine other understandings of Scripture from other students of Scripture.

Your good friend,
Matthew Janzen

We already see that we were to take a lamb beginning on the day of the 10th, unto the day of the 14th for examination, then it is to be slaughtered that evening. What evening? It is the evening following the "fourteenth day."

Also, The original Hebrew in the passage (Exo.12:3-6) is ben ha arbayim and means, literally, “between the two evenings.” Gesenius’ Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament tells us about this expression. It relates, “between the two evenings, Ex. 16:12; 30:8; used as MARKING THE SPACE OF TIME DURING WHICH THE PASCHAL LAMB WAS SLAIN, Ex.12:6; Lev.23:5; Num.9:3; and the EVENING SACRIFICE WAS OFFERED, Ex.29:30, 41; Num.28:4.”

Exodus 12:11-12
(11) And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is YHVH's passover.
(12) For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am YHVH.

We must establish when "this night" took place to see when we "observed" the Passover.

Exodus 12:14
(14) And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to YHVH throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance forever.

What day is "this day" and "feast" that is being spoken of here?

Exodus 12:15-16
(15) Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; even the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses: for whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel.
(16) And in the first day there shall be a holy convocation, and in the seventh day there shall be a holy convocation to you; no manner of work shall be done in them, save that which every man must eat, that only may be done of you.

So we see that there are ONLY 7 days we are to eat unleavened bread. From the evening of the 14th, going into the 15, through the evening of the 21st of this month.

Exodus 12:17-18
(17) And ye shall observe the feast of unleavened bread; for in this selfsame day have I brought your armies out of the land of Egypt: therefore shall ye observe this day in your generations by an ordinance forever.
(18) In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even.

We are beginning to answer some of the questions now; we see that the same day of unleavened bread YHVH brought them out of Egypt, and remember we were to eat the passover that night in haste, ready leave, and "in this selfsame night" we were brought out.

Also, as I pointed out earlier, verse 18 says again, you are to eat unleavened bread on the evening of the 14th (going into the 15th) until the 21st day of the month...and when it says the 21st day of the month here we know that this means through the entire day of the 21st, at the END of the 21st. So from the end of the 14th until the end of the 21st we eat no leaven.

Exodus 12:19
(19) Seven days shall there be no leaven found in your houses: for whosoever eateth that which is leavened, even that soul shall be cut off from the congregation of Israel, whether he be a stranger, or born in the land.

Exodus 12:21-43
(21) (STEP ONE - KILL THE PASSOVER) Then Moses called for all the elders of Israel, and said unto them, Draw out and take you a lamb according to your families, and kill the passover.
(22) And ye shall take a bunch of hyssop, and dip it in the blood that is in the basin, and strike the lintel and the two side posts with the blood that is in the basin; and none of you shall go out at the door of his house until the morning.
(23) For YHVH will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, YHVH will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you.
(24) And ye shall observe this thing for an ordinance to thee and to thy sons forever.
(25) And it shall come to pass, when ye be come to the land which YHVH will give you, according as he hath promised, that ye shall keep this service.
(26) And it shall come to pass, when your children shall say unto you, What mean ye by this service?
(27) That ye shall say, It is the sacrifice of YHVH's passover, who passed over the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt, when he smote the Egyptians, and delivered our houses. And the people bowed the head and worshiped.
(28) And the children of Israel went away, and did as YHVH had commanded Moses and Aaron, so did they.
(STEP TWO - THAT NIGHT WAS PASSOVER)
(29) And it came to pass, that at midnight YHVH smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.
(30) And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead.
(31) And he called for Moses and Aaron by night, and said, Rise up, and get you forth from among my people, both ye and the children of Israel; and go, serve YHVH, as ye have said.
(32) Also take your flocks and your herds, as ye have said, and be gone; and bless me also.
(33) And the Egyptians were urgent upon the people, that they might send them out of the land in haste; for they said, We be all dead men.
(34) And the people took their dough before it was leavened, their kneading troughs being bound up in their clothes upon their shoulders.
(35) And the children of Israel did according to the word of Moses; and they borrowed of the Egyptians jewels of silver, and jewels of gold, and raiment:
(36) And YHVH gave the people favor in the sight of the Egyptians, so that they lent unto them such things as they required. And they spoiled the Egyptians. (WAIT A MINUTE, DIDNT WE LEARN THAT THEY CAME OUT ON THE FIRST DAY OF UNLEAVENED BREAD?? SO THEY KEPT PASSOVER IN THE EVENING OF THE 14TH GOING INTO THE 15TH)
(37) And the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand on foot that were men, beside children.
(38) And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle.
(39) And they baked unleavened cakes of the dough which they brought forth out of Egypt, for it was not leavened; because they were thrust out of Egypt, and could not tarry, neither had they prepared for themselves any victual.
(40) Now the sojourning of the children of Israel, who dwelt in Egypt, was four hundred and thirty years.
(41) And it came to pass at the end of the four hundred and thirty years, even the selfsame day (UNLEAVENED BREAD) it came to pass, that all the hosts of YHVH went out from the land of Egypt.
(42) It is a night to be much observed unto YHVH for bringing them out from the land of Egypt: this is that night of YHVH to be observed of all the children of Israel in their generations.
(43) And YHVH said unto Moses and Aaron, This is the ordinance of the passover: There shall no stranger eat thereof:

We just read the Ordinance of the Passover, which clearly indicates to me that Passover is done going into the 15th day.

So why does the Scriptures mention the 14th? This is the day you are to kill the passover, and prepare it. It is taught by Historians that the Passover Lamb was slaughter at 3:00pm on the day of the 14th, and this would also line up to the time Yahshua was killed as our Passover Lamb.

Deu 16:1-6
Observe the month of Abib, and keep the passover unto YHVH thy Elohim: for in the month of Abib YHVH thy Elohim brought thee forth out of Egypt by night.
2 Thou shalt therefore sacrifice the passover unto YHVH thy Elohim, of the flock and the herd, in the place which YHVH shall choose to place his name there.
3 Thou shalt eat no leavened bread with it; seven days shalt thou eat unleavened bread therewith, even the bread of affliction; for thou camest forth out of the land of Egypt in haste: that thou mayest remember the day when thou camest forth out of the land of Egypt all the days of thy life.
4 And there shall be no leavened bread seen with thee in all thy coast seven days; neither shall there any thing of the flesh, which thou sacrificedst the first day at even, remain all night until the morning.
5 Thou mayest not sacrifice the passover within any of thy gates, which YHVH thy Elohim giveth thee:
6 But at the place which YHVH thy Elohim shall choose to place his name in, there thou shalt sacrifice the passover at even, at the going down of the sun, at the season that thou camest forth out of Egypt.

The Last Supper

Matthew 26:17
(17) Now the first of the unleavened bread, the disciples came to Yahshua, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?

My first question is this, they are at the first of unleavened bread...why are they just now preparing for the passover?? Some Historians teach that it was common that Teachers would gather together their disciples for special Passover teachings the night before Passover, the 13th-14th evening. This is something that you can research yourself, I believe we will see this with the Scriptures alone.

Matthew 26:20-30
(20) Now when the even was come (WHAT EVENING -THE EVENING OF THE 13TH, GOING INTO THE 14TH, THIS IS NOT THE PASSOVER), he sat down with the twelve.
(21) And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.
(22) And they were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I?
(23) And he answered and said, He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish, the same shall betray me.
(24) The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.
(25) Then Judah, which betrayed him, answered and said, Master, is it I? He said unto him, Thou hast said.
(26) And as they were eating, Yahshua took bread, and blessed it, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
(27) And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
(28) For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
(29) But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.
(30) And when they had sung a hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.

The bread and wine was not neccesarily the Passover meal they would do. But this was done in every Hebrew's Home Daily and especially for Shabbat for 1,000's of years; the Breaking of Bread (we read the disciples doing this daily house to house) and the Cup of Wine. this begin I believe with Abraham; Genesis 14:17-20 "And the king of Sodom went out to meet him after his return from the slaughter of Chedorlaomer, and of the kings that were with him, at the valley of Shaveh, which is the king's dale. (18) And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high Elohim. (19) And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high Elohim, possessor of heaven and earth: (20) And blessed be the most high Elohim, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all."
This is why Yahshua says as Often as you drink this cup and eat this bread you do remember the master's death until He comes. Of course, I also believe that He taught them "deeper" meanings to the Passover, and explained to them He would become the passover lamb.

The blessings for the Bread and the Wine is:

Baruch ata YHVH Eloheinu Melech HaOlam, Bree Pree HaGafen.

Blessed are you YHVH our EL, King of the Universe who creates fruit of the vine

AND

Baruch ata YHVH Eloheinu Melech HaOlam, HaMotzi Lachem Men HaEretz.

Blessed are you YHVH our EL, King of the Universe who brings forth bread from the Earth...Amein!

Verse 29 is the Key, Yahshua tells them I will not drink of this Cup until I drink it with you in my Father's Kingdom. Also, where is the Lamb? Where is the bitter herbs? This was not the Passover Meal, this was a meal (literally; the Last Supper), and teaching He had with His disciples, after preparing for Passover (the Next Day).

Matthew 26:17
(17) On the first day of the Festival of Unleavened Bread, the disciples went to Yahshua and said, "Where do you want us to make preparations for you to eat the Passover meal?"

Matthew 27:15-16
(15) At every festival (WHAT FESTIVAL? UNLEAVEN BREAD) the governor had a custom of releasing to the crowd any prisoner whom they wanted.
(16) At that time they were holding a notorious prisoner named Barabbas.

When I read the account, I see that they prepared for the Passover, beginning at the time of Unleavened bread, because the Israelites considered the Day of Preparation, the 14th as Part of the actual feast. this is why the accounts call it Unleavened bread, or a feast day, and this allows us to be in line with the Torah.

Matthew 27:45-46
(45) Now from noon on, darkness came over the whole land until three in the afternoon.
(46) About three o'clock Yahshua cried out with a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?", which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

Mark's Account

Mark 14:12-16
(12) On the first day of the Festival of Unleavened Bread, when the Passover lamb is sacrificed, Yahshua's disciples asked him, "Where do you want us to go and make preparations for you to eat the Passover meal?"
(13) He sent two of his disciples and told them, "Go into the city, and you will meet a man carrying a jug of water. Follow him.
(14) When he goes into a house, say to its owner that the Teacher asks, 'Where is my room where I can eat the Passover meal with my disciples?'
(15) Then he will show you a large upstairs room that is furnished and ready. Get everything ready for us there."
(16) So the disciples left and went into the city. They found everything just as Yahshua had told them, and they prepared the Passover meal.

I see here in the Scriptures that they are only preparing for the Passover, as Matthew's account states, the First of Unleavened bread was upon them, and it refers to this as the Passover, as if it is the Same Day. The Israelites custom was they considered Passover, the 14th or Preparation day, as part of the Feast also.

“And the first day of unleavened bread, when they KILLED THE PASSOVER, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?” (Mark 14:12).

Another translations says it like this:
Mark 14:12 On the first day of the Festival of Unleavened Bread, when the Passover lamb is sacrificed, Yahshua's disciples asked him, "Where do you want us to go and make preparations for you to eat the Passover meal?"

The actual “first day of unleavened bread” is Nisan 15. So what does this verse mean? The Scriptures cannot be broken (John 10:35). Actually, the term “first day” here is protos hemera, and can be translated “beginning time” or “prior period.” It is a reference to the time before the Passover celebration itself – that is, the preparation period! “First” here is number #4413 in Strong’s Concordance and means, “foremost, in time, place, or importance – before, beginning, best, chief, first, former.” The word hemera translated “day” can refer to a “period of time,” such as “the day of the YHVH,” “the day of vengeance,” etc. Therefore this verse is simply referring to the PERIOD OF TIME PRIOR TO THE PASSOVER, WHEN IT WAS BEING PREPARED FOR.

John's Account

John 13:24-30
(24) Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him, that he should ask who it should be of whom he spake.
(25) He then lying on Yahshua's breast saith unto him, Master, who is it?
(26) Yahshua answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judah Iscariot, the son of Simon.
(27) And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Yahshua unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.
(28) Now no man at the table knew for what intent he spake this unto him.
(29) For some of them thought, because Judah had the bag, that Yahshua had said unto him, Buy those things that we have need of against the feast; or, that he should give something to the poor.
(30) He then having received the sop went immediately out: and it was night.

John gives us a clue here that they thought Judah was leaving with the money bag to go and buy for the Feast...if they were keeping the Passover at that time, Judah was a little late, their thinking Judah was going to buy for that feast would have been incorrect.

Other References in the Scriptures

Exo 23:15 Thou shalt keep the feast of unleavened bread: (thou shalt eat unleavened bread seven days, as I commanded thee, in the time appointed of the month Abib; for in it thou camest out from Egypt: and none shall appear before me empty:)

Lev 23:6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto YHVH: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.

Numbers 9:10-12
(10) Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If any man of you or of your posterity shall be unclean by reason of a dead body, or be in a journey afar off, yet he shall keep the passover unto YHVH.
(11) The fourteenth day of the second month at even they shall keep it, and eat it with unleavened bread and bitter herbs.
(12) They shall leave none of it unto the morning, nor break any bone of it: according to all the ordinances of the passover they shall keep it.

Num 28:17 And in the fifteenth day of this month is the feast: seven days shall unleavened bread be eaten.

2 Chronicles 35:13-17
(13) And they roasted the passover with fire according to the ordinance: but the other holy offerings sod they in pots, and in caldrons, and in pans, and divided them speedily among all the people.
(14) And afterward they made ready for themselves, and for the priests: because the priests the sons of Aaron were busied in offering of burnt offerings and the fat until night; therefore the Levites prepared for themselves, and for the priests the sons of Aaron.
(15) And the singers the sons of Asaph were in their place, according to the commandment of David, and Asaph, and Heman, and Jeduthun the king's seer; and the porters waited at every gate; they might not depart from their service; for their brethren the Levites prepared for them.
(16) So all the service of YHVH was prepared the same day, to keep the passover, and to offer burnt offerings upon the altar of YHVH, according to the commandment of king Josiah.
(17) And the children of Israel that were present kept the passover at that time, and the feast of unleavened bread seven days. (PASSOVER AND UNLEAVENED BREAD CELEBRATED IN THE SAME TIME FRAME)

Eze 45:21 In the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month, ye shall have the passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten. (CLEARLY SEEN HERE, PASSOVER OCCURS ON THE EVENING OF THE 14TH GOING INTO THE FIRST DAY OF UNLEAVENED BREAD, MAKING A COMPLETE 7 DAYS, NOT 8 DAYS, NOT 6 DAYS, BUT 7, FROM THE EVENING OF THE 14TH, UNTIL THE EVENING OF THE 21ST OF THE MONTH)

Joshua 5:10-11
(10) And the children of Israel encamped in Gilgal, and kept the passover on the fourteenth day of the month at even in the plains of Jericho.
(11) And they did eat of the old corn of the land on the morrow after the passover, unleavened cakes, and parched corn in the selfsame day. (I LOVE THIS PASSAGE, THIS IS ANOTHER PLACE WHERE IT SHOWS THAT PASSOVER IS BEING REFERRED TO AS THE FIRST DAY OF UNLEAVENED BREAD, THE 15TH. THEY ATE THE OLD CORN THE DAY AFTER THE PASSOVER, WHICH THEY ARE REFERRING TO ABIB 16TH AT THAT POINT)

Other References

Taken from Wikipedia;
Origins of the feast
The term Pesach is first mentioned in the Torah account of the Exodus from Egypt (Exodus 12:23). There it refers to the way God "passed over" the houses of the Israelites during the final plague of the Ten Plagues of Egypt, the killing of the first-born. On the night of that plague, which occurred on the 15th day of Nisan, the Jews smeared their lintels and doorposts with the blood of the Pesach sacrifice and were spared. (END QUOTE)

The Jewish historian Josephus tells us much about the intricate and detailed planning for the journey out of Egypt. He wrote in Antiquities of the Jews, "But when God had signified, that with one more plague he would compel the Egyptians to let the Hebrews go, he commanded Moses to tell the people that they should have a sacrifice ready, AND THAT THEY SHOULD PREPARE THEMSELVES on the tenth day of the month Xanthicus, against the fourteenth . . . and that he should carry away the Hebrews with all they had. Accordingly, HE HAVING GOT THE HEBREWS READY FOR THEIR DEPARTURE, AND HAVING SORTED THE PEOPLE INTO TRIBES, HE KEPT THEM TOGETHER IN ONE PLACE [therefore, no gatherings were required -- the people were already assembled together!]: but when the fourteenth day was come, and ALL WERE READY TO DEPART, they offered the sacrifice . . . as just ready to depart” (Antiquities, Bk.II, xiv,6).

The term Pesach also refers to the lamb which was designated as the Passover sacrifice. Four days before the Exodus, the Jews were commanded to set aside a lamb (Exodus 12:3) and inspect it daily for blemishes. On the night of the 15th of Nisan, they were to slaughter the lamb and use its blood to mark their lintels and doorposts. Before midnight, each family (or group of families) gathered together to eat a meal that included the meat of this Pesach sacrifice while the Tenth Plague ravaged Egypt.

CONCLUSION

We must remember that the "Seder" or Order of the Passover was already established, and Yahshua said, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. "

(11) The fourteenth day of the second month at even they shall keep it, and eat it with unleavened bread and bitter herbs.

Deu 16:6 But at the place which YHVH thy Elohim shall choose to place his name in, there thou shalt sacrifice the passover at even, at the going down of the sun, at the season that thou camest forth out of Egypt.

We know that the Torah has established this time, and we know that Yahshua never broke Torah or changed one jot (Yod) or a tittle (marking) of it. We also must take into consideration that in our translations of the Scriprture, the Hebraic meaning and teachings were purposely removed. So we must read the N.T. acothingy, in balance with the Torah, and also look to History and see what their customs would have been at that time.

Pro 20:23 Divers weights are an abomination unto YHVH; and a false balance is not good.

We must take all evidence into consideration and weigh it out. For example, there are a couple verses in the Bible that would lead people to think Sabbath is done away with, but we no better because we cannot excuse the other 100+ accounts where the Word confirms keeping of Sabbath.

The last thing I want to mention is John's account of that night with Yahshua. He mentions that Judah was leaving and they assumed he was leaving to go purchase for the feast, if they had already entered into it, Judah was a little late, and the disciples weren't thinking clearly.

Many assume that Yahshua referred to the final meal He had with His disciples as the “Passover.” How could it have been the “Passover,” since the following day would still be the “preparation” of the Passover? So in what sense was this final meal a “Passover” since the traditional Passover would not be until the next day? He plainly said to the disciples, “With desire I have desired to eat THIS PASSOVER with you BEFORE I SUFFER: For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of YHVH” (Luke 22:15-16). So, what did He really mean?

Why did Yahshua that night, at supper with the disciples, speak of “THIS Passover”? Was He referring to that evening meal? Or was He not referring to the upcoming Passover which He would be unable to eat with them since He would be dead at that time? Notice what He said! The word translated “desire” in this verse is #1939 in Strong’s Concordance, the word epithumia, and means “a longing (especially for what is forbidden).” How natural! Yahshua really wanted to eat the regular Passover with them that year -- but it was “forbidden”! He would be unable to do so because it was required that He die, and become our “Passover” lamb (I Cor.5:7).

When we look at the accounts of Passover, or unleavened bread, and look at all references, as a puzzle, the pieces come together. On the Day of the 10th of Abib, the Lamb was to be taken (Yahshua entered into Jerusalem), it is to be kept until the 14th day of the month for inspection. On that day the Lamb is to be killed, and Blood applied to the door, and the Lamb cooked/burnt. At this time, when the Lamb is consumed, it is eaten with bitter herbs, and UNLEAVENED bread, from this evening, the 14th going into the 15th we are to eat NO Leaven, for 7 days. This brings us to the 21st of the month. This is the Teaching of the Torah, and what the Accounts of the Gospel seem to be saying also. Especially since Yahshua was killed on the day of the Passover, when the other Passover lambs are being killed. This would have taken place around 3:00pm on the Day of the 14th, preparing to enter the 15th of Abib.

I believe each person should be fully persuaded in their heart when they should keep the Passover. I am not offended in the least by someone keeping it differently than I.

Shalom,
Ariyah

I appreciate the genuine response you gave to my previous posting. I would like to respond to only a few of your comments.

You wrote:

quote:

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I would agree, based upon what Shaul wrote in 1 Corinthians 5:8 that removing leaven also entails removing the leaven of malice and wickedness from our lives, no problem. I do not, however, believe that when we bring leaven back into our homes it means we are symbolizing bringing in malice and wickedness, but those who see leaven as always representing evil and sin must believe that it has to symbolize something evil.

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I reply: Well, to me bringing the leavening back into our home is symbolic of returning to a world of malice and wickedness. We should never bring malice and wickedness into our homes, yet I understand that we live in a wicked world filled with all sorts of evil, and when I return to work after keeping the feast, this is what confronts me. I liken it to the leaven of malice and wickedness.

Personally speaking, I believe the Feast of Unleavened Bread symbolizes what it is like in YHWH's kingdom, where there will be no sin, no malice and wickedness ... only sincerity and truth. When the "reality" arrives ... i.e., when the Feast of Unleavened Bread is fulfilled in YHWH's kingdom, there will be no "bringing the leaven back in," if you know what I mean. It will be perpetual "sincerity and truth"!

You wrote:

quote:

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There is nothing in Scripture, that I'm aware of, that would teach us to abstain from leaven on the 14th day of Aviv. If someone chooses to do so, I do not think it is sin, but just their choice, but I see not commandment, so it is perfectly acceptable for a person to eat leavened bread on the 14th for whatever reason. Because I do not see Yeshua's supper with his disciples as being the Passover, but rather a preparatory meal at the beginning of the 14th, it is not difficult for me to see how leavened bread could have been used without breaking any command of Yahweh.

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I reply: I agree that the Master's Supper was not the Passover meal, and I agree that they could have had leavened bread at that meal (although I strongly doubt it). I must quickly add that IF they had any leavened bread at that meal, which I doubt, they ALSO had unleavened bread, and it was that unleavened bread that Yeshua used in reference to His body.

Because I agree with you that the Master's Supper was a "preparatory meal," I believe it was a preparatory meal preparing them for the real thing, and letting the disciples know what the bread and wine of the Passover meal symbolize. It doesn't make sense that He would let them know what the wine of the Passover means by using real wine only to then show them what the unleavened bread represents by using leavened bread as the visual aid, if you know what I mean!!

While I agree that it would not have been breaking any commands of YHWH to have had leavened bread at that meal, the connection between the "leavened bread" and "sinless body" just doesn't work. If we can agree that He was sinless, then I believe we should also agree that only unleavened bread ... the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth ... fits the picture.

You also wrote:

quote:

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I also see how that the accounts of this meal could have used the word azumos and left no doubt as to what bread was used at this meal.

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I reply: I agree, but that's what forces us to study these things out carefully. Now that it has been established that artos can also refer to unleavened bread, we know not to presume something prematurely, do we not?

You also wrote:

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I see your point about 1 Corinthians 5:7. We are to remove the old leaven of malice and wickedness, so we might be a new lump, as we are unleavened, because Messiah our Passover was sacrificed for our sake. This is a good point you bring up Larry, that appears to show Messiah's body as representing unleavened bread. I appreciate this point from Scripture, and will study this further. I definitely do not want to do nor teach anything incorrectly, I just want to love Yahweh and do what's right.

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I reply: I cherish that reply, Matthew. I hope you don't mind my adding something to your comment. I trust we both love YHWH and want to do His will, no matter what. May that be our only focus and motivation!

With the above in mind, I hope you can see why I'm rather adamant about the way I believe here. Let's suppose that you and I end up agreeing that Messiah's body represents unleavened bread, and that the "old leaven" symbolizes malice and wickedness. Would eating leavened bread as a symbol of Yeshua's sinless body ever suffice for you again?

Those who believe Yeshua and His disciples ate leavened bread that night really don't care if anyone else eats leavened bread or unleavened bread that night (at least this is what the folks who believe this way have told me). Either way is fine with them.

But do you see why "leavened bread" is not "fine" for those of my persuasion? To me, it is as though you are treating Yeshua as a sinner, and I know many of my persuasion agree with that sentiment. I am only telling you this because anytime this argument comes up, the "intolerant ones" will be those of my persuasion. We have to be.

You also wrote:

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My point on Deuteronomy 16:3 is that there are both positive and negative aspects of unleavened bread, just as there are with leavened bread. The word affliction in this verse is a word that means "depression, and misery". It is even translated as "trouble" in Psalms 9:3 and 31:7. Deuteronomy 26:7 also translates the word as affliction in reference to the Israelites bondage in the land of Egypt. So I do believe that unleavened bread is typed out in Deuteronomy 16:3 as the bread of misery.

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I reply: It doesn't matter how many negative synonyms for "affliction" you come up with ... none of them gives "unleavened bread" a negative aspect! As I mentioned in my previous posting, the "bread of affliction" is actually a very positive remembrance (anything but negative!). It is a remembrance and acknowledgement that our ancestors were once slaves in Egypt, but we celebrate the deliverance. As I mentioned in my previous posting, it's been said that we cannot really appreciate the celebration unless we experience the pain of humiliation. This is why we are to eat the "bread of affliction" during the feast, not because we are to experience affliction, but we eat it with JOY to remember and appreciate the victory.

On the surface, I can see how someone might believe "bread of affliction" detracts from the positive meaning of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Anyone who really looks into it, however, knows better.

You also wrote:

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We should avoid the extremes of thinking leaven is always evil, or unleavened bread is always good.

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I reply: I agree that unleavened bread is not always good, but it's been several years since I've had any bad unleavened bread.

You continue:

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Yeshua is referred to as the "firstfruit", singular noun in both 1 Corinthians 15:20, 23, but the exact same singular noun is used in Revelation 14:4 so nothing can be proven by the singular noun. I do believe that Yeshua is representative of the firstfruit wave offering of barley in Leviticus 23:10-14 seeing he rose the third day according to the Scriptures (1 Cor. 15:1-4), this is why I believe Yeshua rose on the first day of the week, the 16th of Aviv.

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I reply: Great catch regarding the singular noun for "firstfruit" in Rev. 14:4. For some reason, I had been under the impression that this Greek word was a plural noun in Rev. 14:4, but, as you say, it is indeed singular.

As for which day Yeshua rose, we obviously disagree on this aspect. I believe Yeshua rose at the end of the weekly Sabbath, but that's a separate discussion.

Take care and may YHWH bless!

In the love of YHWH through His Son Yeshua the Messiah,
Larry

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You wrote:

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Originally posted by KittyCat:
It's really strange, but I knew that I posted some stuff in response to Larry about the Passover. I haven't been around for a while, so I don't exactly remember where it's at even though I searched for it. By the way, Larry, those verses that I posted to you to look at in Deut., they are not private interpretations at all.

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I reply: For some reason, the thread you are referring to was moved to the Echad Forum. I had responded to your posting in that thread before it was moved.

You also wrote:

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But to answer the question of this tread: Yes, Yahushua's last supper, aka, Yahweh's supper, is the Passover. And it's also the First Day of Unleavened Bread. The two cannot be separated.

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I reply: I disagree with the notion that Yeshua ate the Passover with His disciples. I believe John Cordaro gave a nice summary regarding this view, and I agree with what he wrote (page one of this thread). Furthermore, I agree with those who contend that Yeshua could not have eaten the Passover if He WAS (and IS) the Passover.

Also, I believe I have read most, if not all, of the arguments offered by those who promote the view that Abib 14 is also day one of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, and I do not find any of them compelling. The only one that I would accept would be the one in Ezekiel 45:21, but that would only be if there were no other verses of Scripture which effectively demonstrate that day one of the Feast begins on Abib 15.

One argument that I have never seen refuted (to my satisfaction) by those of your persuasion is why the disciples would think that Yeshua wanted Judas to "quickly" go out and buy things for the feast IF the feast had already begun.

Furthermore, if that day was "day one" of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, then it was a holy day, not a day for buying and selling. Why would the disciples think that Yeshua told Judas to go out and buy something on a holy day? Whatever answer it is I've read from those of your persuasion didn't help me any. Maybe you have a better reason for why the disciples would think Yeshua would intend for Judas to quickly go out and buy something on the holy day. If so, I will do my best to give it consideration.

As for your explanation involving Genesis 1:14, I believe everything that verse says, but I do not agree with your method of using it to somehow establish your case that the Feast of Unleavened Bread begins on Abib 14, especially since Leviticus 23:6 plainly states otherwise. Furthermore, I believe Numbers 28:16-17 plainly identifies Passover as falling on Abib 14, and the Feast of Unleavened Bread begins on Abib 15 and lasts for seven days. This would of necessity exclude Abib 14 from those seven days.

Out of curiosity, on which day of the month do you believe we should observe the Day of Atonement?

You also wrote:

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Also, look in Gen. 19 when the two male angels went to rescue Lot and his family. Keep in mind that Lot was a very wealthy man, but he served these two dignitaries (angels) unleavened bread. Why would Lot, an extremely wealthy man, serve two angels unleavened bread, which was anciently know as poor man's bread? And there's more, which I don't have time to go into right now.

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I reply: Can you demonstrate that Lot served the angels unleavened bread on Abib 14? Otherwise, I do not see your point in bringing up this passage.

You also wrote:

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The Passover "EVENT" in Exodus was to be a one-time event on the FIRST DAY OF UNLEAVENED BREAD.

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I reply: I agree, presuming the "EVENT" you refer to is the plague of the firstborn. I believe they killed [offered] the Passover on Abib 14, then that night (after Abib 15 had begun) they ate the meal. Thus was begun the Feast of Unleavened Bread ... and not a day sooner.

You also wrote:

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The whole Passover Week, as it was later known as the Passover Week, is exactly seven days long. Not eight days, not eight and a half days, but from the beginning of the 14th day (sundown on 13th) UP TO the 21st (exclusive of the 21st), it is seven days long.

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I reply: Well, I disagree with your interpretation of Scripture on this matter, and I know historians such as Philo and Josephus disagreed with you, too. If you wish, I will supply the quotes validating this fact. For those who might believe I am putting Josephus and Philo above Scripture, they are certainly entitled to believe whatever they wish, but they are simply mistaken. Nevertheless, I believe weight is added to the understanding I have when I can demonstrate from the historical record that this is how the ancients understood those same texts.

You also wrote:

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At this point, I'll stop because no one really listens anyway. It seems so many people have their private interpretations or the interpretations of the Pharisees, and are happy with that.

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I reply: Yes, I am accustomed to folks who treat any interpretation that conflicts with theirs as being "their private interpretation." Again, since the ancients agreed with the position I hold, I would hardly call it a "private" interpretation.

As for your apparently negative generalization pertaining to anything associated with the Pharisees, I will remind you that the Apostle Shaul was not ashamed to admit that he was a member of the "strictest sect" of Judaism ... the Pharisees (Acts 26:5). While it is true the Pharisees are well known for going by the "traditions of men," this is not a fair blanket generalization to make about that sect. It would be no more true to label all Pharisees as only going by "man's traditions" than it would be to claim that all Christians are opposed to killing.

May YHWH bless!

Love in Messiah,
Larry

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I would like to respond to your posting. Sorry to hear you're too pressed for time to offer more detailed explanations. I understand how you feel. That having been said, I must say that a lot of what you wrote doesn't make sense to me.

You wrote:

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About all I have time to tell you right now is that the "foot washing" was the day before the Passover (i.e, 1st day of unleavened bread.) It's not the Passover supper. This stands out when the Synoptic Texts are put into chronological order. And the Sinaitic Palimpsest even adds: "before the Feast of Unleavened."

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I reply: So you're saying the "foot washing" was the day before the 1st day of Unleavened Bread? The above remark seems to stand in stark contrast to what you wrote yesterday:

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But to answer the question of this tread: Yes, Yahushua's last supper, aka, Yahweh's supper, is the Passover. And it's also the First Day of Unleavened Bread. The two cannot be separated.

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My comment: Presuming you can agree that the "foot washing" occurred in conjunction with Yeshua's last supper, then what you wrote TODAY indicates that you believe this supper occurred the day before the Passover/Feast of Unleavened Bread.

However, what you wrote yesterday demonstrates that Yeshua's last supper "is the Passover. And it's also the First Day of Unleavened Bread. The two cannot be separated."

So which is it? Did Yeshua eat His last supper with His disciples on or before the Passover/Feast of Unleavened Bread?

You added:

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There's more, but I just don't have the time to go into it right now. I'm tied up. John 13 is a chapter that throws a lot of people because they think it's all on the same night, but it's actually the night before.

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I reply: What is "it's all"?

You concluded:

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And it's pretty much a fact once you understand the various ways the Passover was kept and still is kept, that a whole lot of people are following the Pharisees, but they don't realize it.

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I reply: I'm happy that you believe you have Passover all figured out, but if you wish to impart unto me your understanding, I will need it done in more clear terms.

As for your continued blanket generalization of the Pharisees, all I can say is, if the understanding I have of Scripture happens to dovetail with something the Pharisees believed, then this doesn't make my understanding "pharisaical," or whatever label you may wish to cast upon it. It simply means that a certain understanding of Scripture I have was shared by the Pharisees. This is no more "pharisaical" than the belief that there is a resurrection.

If any discussion with you involves bantering the label of "pharisaical" or "following the Pharisees," then my response is, "Praise YHWH!" This was the first response my wife and I received from our former Sundaykeeping friends when we decided to observe the weekly Sabbath. I believe you are just as correct as they are.

May YHWH bless!

In the love of YHWH through His Son Yeshua the Messiah,
Larry

As an afterthought after having posted the above, it does indeed appear that you believe Yeshua washed His disciples' feet the night before His last supper with them. I'm sure there are several ways of refuting such a belief, presuming this is what you may indeed believe. One that immediately comes to mind is what Yeshua told Simon Kepha in Matt. 26:34. This is where He told him, "This night, before the rooster crow, thou shalt deny Me thrice."

Yeshua told Simon Kepha the same thing in John 13:38, except the words "This night" are omitted. I find it very hard to believe that on two consecutive nights Simon Kepha would tell Yeshua that He would lay his life down for Yeshua, only for Yeshua (on both nights) to give him the same response that he would deny Him three times before the rooster crowed.

So if you believe the foot washing occurred the night before Yeshua's Last Supper, I believe you are very mistaken. The absense of the words "this night" in John 13:38 does not mean Yeshua told Simon Kepha that he would deny Him three times before the rooster crows on two consecutive nights, especially since I'm sure the rooster would have crowed a bunch of times during the interval between two consecutive mornings. Anyone who has ever raised chickens knows this much is true. Yeshua made the one prediction on the one night, not on two separate occasions.

Finally, when I read John 13 - 18 (where Yeshua was arrested), I see no evidence of a "story break" that would allow the passage of an extra day to transpire between the foot washing and Yeshua's arrest. If you know of a break in the timeline, I would like to know where it is.

Anyway, I'm hopeful that you do not actually believe the foot washing occurred the night before Yeshua's Last Supper; but if this is what you believe, then I am persuaded, at least based upon what I have just offered here, that you are mistaken.

May YHWH bless!

In the love of YHWH through His Son Yeshua the Messiah,
Larry

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Blessed be the name of YHWH!

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