quote:

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Pesahim 6:4 A. A festal offering derives from the flock of sheep or from the herd of oxen, from lambs or from goats, from males or from females.
B. And it is eaten for two days and the intervening night [to the night of the fifteenth of Nisan].

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There is a controversy concerning what Yahshua and his disciples were doing the night he was betrayed. Was he partaking of the Passover meal with its lamb and bitter herbs or was this a pre-Passover meal? Since John's gospel suggests the Jews had not yet eaten their Passover lambs, and since the lambs were traditionally killed at 3:00 p.m. on Abib 14, I think it is logical to believe Yahshua and his disciples were partaking of the "festal offering" on that "intervening night". It could be eaten on the daylight portion of the 13th, the night beginning the 14th, and the daylight portion of the 14th. Then, on the night of the 15th, they would partake of the Passover lamb.

Matthew, Mark and Luke each say "they made ready the Passover" in preparation for the "last supper". Since Josephus says the Jews considered the Passover to be "a feast of eight days", the beginning of Abib 14 would begin Passover in that context. The first meal partaken of would have been the festal offering on the night of the 14th. The disciples made everything ready to begin the Passover by securing a room, making sure it was unleavened, preparing the festal offering, etc.

Any thoughts?

Shalom,
John

Personally, I lean toward your viewpoint that Yeshua did not have the actual Passover. One of the reasons why I do not believe Yeshua had the Passover because he was to be the Passover lamb. And besides that the information that you gave reguarding the Scriptures state it wasn't the time.

Now perhaps (and it's a big perhaps) Yeshua was setting up for the Passover but knew he was to die soon, so he pretty much knew he wouldn't be eating the Passover. But of course all that is conjecture.

I have heard it disputed that Yeshua actually did keep the Passover. That he kept the Passover with the Essenes because he had it in the Essene quater and their Passover falls before the Jewish Passover. They claim the Essenes are the real Zadokites and are actually the real priesthood so they had lambs ready to go. And that Yeshua did in fact have lamb at the Last Meal.

It is also said that because the book of John points out 2 passovers, those being "The Passover of the Judeans" and "The Passover" that one of these Passovers was that which Yeshua celebrated with the Essenes. Also it is used that Yeshua had told the disciples to go look for a man with a pot and since back then that was woman's work except in the Essene quater because the Essenes had taken vows of celibacy and so no women were around them to support this Essene Passover.

I personally don't feel the Bible gives us enough evidence to believe such a thing but I have seen this arguement made to show Yeshua did have Passover.

An interesting thing though is that I read that Essenes were mainly non-meat eaters. So how in the world did they have a lamb ?

This is another thing that I find interesting. IF Yeshua actually did have the Passover why would he serve bread with yeast in it at his Last Meal with the Apostles ?

In Matthew 26:26 it says this:

Mat 26:26 And as they were eating, Yeshua took bread, and having blessed, broke and gave it to the taught ones and said, “Take, eat, this is My body.”

Well I looked up bread in this instance because I have the Scriptures version and the KJV version on e-sword that has the Strongs number by every single word of the Bible so you can easily see what it means

Here is what Strongs says for that verse for the word "bread" in this passage of Scripture :

G740
artos
ar'-tos
From G142; bread (as raised) or a loaf: - (shew-) bread, loaf.

And the word ARTOS is definitely used in Matthew 26:26. How is bread raised ? with yeast!

Now when you go to Luke 22:1, it says this:

Luk 22:1 Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover.

So of course I looked up unleavened bread in Strongs in this Scripture and it said this:

G106
azumos
ad'-zoo-mos
From G1 (as a negative particle) and G2219; unleavened, that is, (figuratively) uncorrupted; (in the neuter plural) specifically (by implication) the Passover week: - unleavened (bread).

And AZUMOS is surely used in Luke 22:1

So we all know that Passover is the 14th of Abib at even, which is technically the 15th (which is the first day of the feast of unleavened bread) so how in the world could Yeshua be serving bread with yeast in it at his Passover ?

To me, that makes no sense whatsoever. So I am going to have to go with Yeshua did not have the Passover. He had a meal. I used to believe that perhaps it was some form of a Passover meal and Yeshua knew he would be taken for slaughter before he got a chance to eat it. But having examined the differences in the bread and the names used for them.. I have no choice but to believe Yeshua didn't have a Passover because he served yeasted bread.

A Passover with the Essenes cannot be correct either because although the Essenes Passover fell a day earlier than the Jews, the Essene calendar still considered the day they had Passover Abib 14. They had an issue because of the difference in time they started the month...

The Feast of Passover (Pesach) was given by Elohim to be a rehearsal of the first coming of Yahushua. The Passover ceremony was observed in remembrance of the past and in preparation for the future.

Many years after the Passover in Egypt, a man named Yohanan the Immerser (John the Baptist) pointed to Yahushua and declared that He was the Lamb of Elohim (John 1:29). After, John, who would prepare the coming of Messiah, proclaimed Yahushua as the Lamb of Elohim, Yahushua ministered for three-and-a-half years. At the end of that time, on the tenth of Nisan, the high priest marched out of the city of Jerusalem to Bethany where a lamb was to be slain. The lamb was led back into the city through streets lined with thousands of pilgrims singing Psalms 113-118.

The liturgy for Hoshanah Rabbah says that the Messiah will come to the Mount of Olives and weep over the city. This happened in Luke 19:41. The people also waved palm branches as Yahushua rode into the city on a donkey in fulfilment of Zechariah 9:9. Today, Nisan 10 is known as Palm Sunday in the non-Jewish community.

The lamb that was to be slain by the high priest was led into the temple and put in a prominent place of display. Likewise, Yahushua the Lamb of Elohim went on public display when He entered the temple and spent four days there among the people, the Sadducees, the Pharisees, and the scribes, as the leaders asked Yahushua their hardest questions. Yahushua was questioned in front of the people for four days, showing Himself to be without spot or blemish, fulfilling Exodus 12:5.

On the fourteenth of Nisan, at the third hour of the day (9:00 a.m.), the high priest took the lamb and ascended the altar so he could tie the lamb in place on the altar. At the same time on that day, Yahushua was tied to the tree on Mount Moriah (Mark 15:25). At the time of the evening sacrifice (3:00 p.m.) for Passover (Exodus 12:6), the high priest ascended the altar, cut the throat of the lamb with a knife, and said the words, "It is finished." These are the exact words said after giving a peace offering to Elohim. At this same time, Yahushua died, saying these exact words in John 19:30.

Yahushua died at exactly 3:00 p.m. (Matthew 27:45-46,50). In Exodus 12:8-9, we are told the lamb was to be roasted before sundown. According to the tractate Pesahim in the Jewish Mishnah writings, the lamb was roasted on an upright pomegranate stick. This pomegranate stick is representative of the tree or stake upon which Yahushua died.

The lamb was to be gutted, and its intestines were to be removed and put over its head. Thus, the lamb is referred to as the "crowned sacrifice." This is a picture of Yahushua in Psalms 22:13-18. Deuteronomy 16:16 says that all the congregation of Yisra'el was required to be present at the feasts of Passover (Pesach), The Feast of Weeks (Shavuot) or Pentecost, and The Feast of Tabernacles (Sukkot). This explains why all the Jews were gathered to witness the death of Yahushua on the tree (Matthew 27:1-26). The night of the fifteenth of Nisan, Elohim commanded the people to eat the lamb with unleavened bread (matzah) and bitter herbs (maror), their sandals on their feet and their bags packed and on their backs (Exodus 12:6,8,11), for on this night they are to leave Egypt. Likewise, we are to be quick to accept Yahushua into our hearts and leave Egypt, which represents the sin and idolatry of this evil world.

Source material from: http://www.hebroots.com/heb_root.html#Heritage
"The Seven Festivals of The Messiah" by Eddie Chumney

You wrote:

quote:

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My family remembers Yahshua's death on this same night(Abib 14)by partaking of the cup and bread representing his blood and body. However, we use unleavened bread as a more appropriate symbol of our sinless Savior.

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I reply: My family remembers the Messiah's death on the same night in which he was betrayed as well, i.e. the beginning of the 14th of Aviv. However we do use leavened bread (and wine) instead of unleavened bread. Let me explain a few reasons why.

1: Every place where the Last Supper or the "Master's Supper" is mentioned uses the Greek word artos instead of the Greek word azumos. This includes 1 Corinthians 11:23 which is the verse where Sha'ul is instructing the New Covenant Assembly to follow the institution of Yeshua which he gave on the night of his betrayal. These texts could have used the word azumos which most assuredly means "unleavened bread" but they did not. This leads me to believe that Yeshua to "leavened bread" and broke / blessed it to give to the disciples.

2: Leavened bread or leavening in general is not always a type of sin in Scripture. We hear much about a "little leaven, leavening the whole lump" (1 Cor. 5:6) in reference to sin, but we hear very little about the positive use of leaven in Scripture. Leaven does not always symbolize evil as the following Scriptures prove:

Besides the cakes, he shall offer for his offering leavened bread with the sacrifice of thanksgiving of his peace offerings. {Lev. 7:13}

Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave loaves of two tenth deals: they shall be of fine flour; they shall be baken with leaven; they are the firstfruits unto Yahweh. {Lev. 23:17}

Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened. {Mt. 13:33}

Not only do Scriptures present a positive side to leaven, Yeshua even refers to himself as the artos - "leavened bread" which came down from heaven (John 6:35, 41, 48, 51). Some may find this inappropriate because they have been taught that all uses of leavened bread in Scripture are a reference to sin. This must be an erroneous teaching because the passages in John are not in reference to the Messiah being a sinner at all.

3: In an article I have entitled, "What Kind of Bread Did Christ Give to His Disciples?" the author, John Leitch writes the following on page 2:

Bread, throughout most of history, was made by a process that is known as "sour dough". A small amount of leavened dough from the previous batch is mixed into the new batch. The pioneers used this method to make their bread. Sometimes the starter could live on (it contained a living organism) for many years. If people thought their neighbor had better tasting bread, they would request a piece of that neighbors starter. The starter contained life and under its influence would reproduce (with proper conditions and time) a product identical to the original loaf the starter came from (if the ingredients were the same).

Another problem people had in the old days was the care that had to be taken to ensure that the starter would remain alive and active. The bread maker realized if the starter was not kept in a good environment, the life in the living bread (the starter), was in danger of dying. If the all-important starter died, due to the baker's negligence in the care that was taken of the starter, big trouble would be the result! The bread would be lifeless and flat. The process would never complete itself, and the bread would remain in an unfinished state. The bread would not rise with that delightful texture and taste that we have all grown to love.

Seeing that we must remove the old leaven of malice and wickedness from our lives - the "bad starter", we must have a "good starter" to cause us to rise up in the spiritual walk of Messiah. Notice that Sha'ul calls the bad leaven in 1 Corinthians 5:8 "old", implying that there is a new leaven, or as it says, a "new lump". The leavene bread partaken at the Master's Supper symbolizes the new leaven (The Messiah, Yeshua - John 6) which is the starter that causes us to rise, after we remove the bad starter that caused us to live as the world.

4: Eating leavened bread for the Master's Supper should not concern us because of the above information, and because there is no command in Scripture to eat unleavened bread on the 14th of Aviv. The first day of unleavened bread is the 15th of Aviv (Ex. 12:17; 13:3-4; Lev. 23:6; Num. 28:17).

Blessings, John,

There is not really a point in going into a long song and dance since Matthew Janzen pretty much answered for me... LOL!

And yes, we do eat unleavened bread on Yeshua's Memorial but only because by that time all the leavened is out of our house completely, not because we believe Yeshua had Passover or that it's wrong to have yeasted bread during the Memorial.

Oh and let me add we have the bread and wine for the Memorial right before we start the Seder we time it so it's before the Seder. Then we just go right into the Seder by sunset.

Shalom,
Missy

The main problem I have with this theory is that each of the gospel accounts plainly state that Yashua sent his disciples to prepare the Passover. Luke states they in fact ate the Passover not some other meal. It is hard for me to try and challenge so plainly stated words. I have always assumed as the majority here have stated that Yashua had to be killed on the 14th in order to fulfill the Passover picture. What if our assumption is incorrect? If we take the plainly stated words of the 4 gospels below it seems impossible for Yashua to eat the Passover as well as be sacrificed at the same time the Passover lambs were sacrificed.

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Matthew 26:18-19 18 And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples. 19 And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover.

Mark 14:14-16 14 And wheresoever he shall go in, say ye to the goodman of the house, The Master saith, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples? 15 And he will shew you a large upper room furnished and prepared: there make ready for us. 16 And his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.

Luke 22:13-15 13 And they went, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover. 14 And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him. 15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:

John 13:1-2 KJV John 13:1 Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end. 2 And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him;
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The word “Passover” in Hebrew means to “pass over”. It is in reference to the angel of death “passing over” the houses of the Israel because of the blood that marked their doors. Later the word Passover came to be associated with the actual killing of the lamb as well as eating it. Even later in the Scripture the word Passover seems to be all inclusive. The “Passover” in its truest sense is a symbolic reference to the deliverance offered by the blood of Yashua.

I believe that most of us would agree that the feast days given by YHWH are shadows fulfilled by Yashua. Each of the feast days in their own way shows the blood sacrifice given by Yashua on our behalf. On each of the feast days that require a special day of rest there is always a sin sacrifice given. We know that Yashua is the Lamb of YHWH that taketh away the sin of the world. The 14th of Nisan is not a feast day. It is a preparation day. The “Passover” lamb is not a “sin” sacrifice. It is a memorial to the angle of death passing over the Israelites houses. The 15th of Nisan is when the sin sacrifice is killed and eaten. The 15th of Nisan is the feast day. The beginning of the 15th of Nisan is when the “Passover” sacrifice is eaten. I believe that it is an assumption (albeit good) on our part to claim that Yashua had to be sacrificed on the 14th of Nisan. What if our assumption is clouding our understanding regarding the bigger picture. As the 4 gospel accounts above show, Yashua did eat the Passover meal with His disciples. Instead of ignoring the plainly stated testimony of these accounts maybe we should challenge our own assumptions.

Notice below that the “memorial” is the “feast” day on which the sacrifice is eaten. The Memorial is the “feast” day not the day of the sacrifice. The focus is on the day that sacrifice is eaten and the day the angle of death “passed” over the Israelites.

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Exodus 12:11-14 11 And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is YHWH'S passover. 12 For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am YHWH. 13 And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt. 14 And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to YHWH throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever.

Exodus 12:27 27 That ye shall say, It is the sacrifice of ’s Passover, who passed over the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt, when he smote the Egyptians, and delivered our houses. And the people bowed the head and worshipped.

Exodus 12:42-43 42 It is a night to be much observed unto YHWH for bringing them out from the land of Egypt: this is that night of YHWH to be observed of all the children of Israel in their generations. 43 And YHWH said unto Moses and Aaron, This is the ordinance of the passover: There shall no stranger eat thereof:

1 Corinthians 5:7 7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
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I do not believe a strong case can be made that the word “bread” or the Greek word “artos”(#740) is a reference used exclusively for leavened bread. If you look at all of the Scriptural usages of the word you will see it is often used in a general sense for bread or food. Yashua refers to Himself as “artos”. The Mana in the wilderness is also referred to as “artos”. All the usages of the word “bread” below are #740 “artos” Notice verse 51 Yashua refers to His “flesh” as the “artos” which He will give for the whole world. Was Yashua’s “flesh” leavened bread when He gave it?

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John 6:31-35 31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat. 32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. 34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread. 35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

John 6:48-51 48 I am that bread of life. 49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
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Unleavened (bread) or “azumos” #106 is used exclusively in the Gospels as a reference to the feast day not to bread. Only Paul in Cor. 5 uses “azumos” in a different sense with the possible implication of bread. In my opinion the usage of “artos” and “azumos” is not justification enough to claim that Yashua did not keep the Passover feast as stated in the Gospel records.

Your servant in Yashua the Messiah,

I hope everyone had a very meaningful Passover and a joyous Feast of Unleavened Bread.

While I agree that leavening can, on occasion, be used to make some really neat illustrations, it is generally understood as being representative of sin, such as when Yeshua cautioned us to beware the "leavening of the Pharisees." This type of leavening is not desirable, especially as a memorial to Messiah. Since it is generally understood that leavening represents sin, and since it is established that Yeshua was without sin, I do not believe bread with leavening should be used to represent His body, unless you wish to consider Him a sinner, which my family and I choose not to do.

I would like to respond to a portion of Matthew Janzen's commentary supporting the use of leavened bread for Yeshua's body.

He wrote:

quote:

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1: Every place where the Last Supper or the "Master's Supper" is mentioned uses the Greek word artos instead of the Greek word azumos. This includes 1 Corinthians 11:23 which is the verse where Sha'ul is instructing the New Covenant Assembly to follow the institution of Yeshua which he gave on the night of his betrayal. These texts could have used the word azumos which most assuredly means "unleavened bread" but they did not. This leads me to believe that Yeshua to "leavened bread" and broke / blessed it to give to the disciples.

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I reply: The fact is, the Greek word "artos" may be used to represent either leavened bread OR unleavened bread. To simply presume that it can only be a reference to leavened bread is a mistake. "Artos" is the Greek word used for the temple shewbread, not "azumos," yet it is commonly known and attested to by the ancients that the temple shewbread was unleavened. If anyone would like for me to cite examples of this, I'll be glad to look them up.

I also believe the temple shewbread was unleavened because it, too, represented the body of Yeshua ... pure and sinless.

Furthermore, I believe that whenever leavened bread was offered in sacrifice, it was not representative of Yeshua. I personally believe it was representative of the saints who, though sinners, are redeemed by the blood of the Lamb. Here's the verse that Matthew J. cited:

Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave loaves of two tenth deals: they shall be of fine flour; they shall be baken with leaven; they are the firstfruits unto Yahweh. {Lev. 23:17}

Who are the "firstfruits unto YHWH"? I believe the answer is in Revelation 14:4:

These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb withersoever He goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto the Almighty and to the Lamb.

Thus, if you wish to use leavened bread for the Memorial Supper, I can see doing it if you wish to memorialize those who are to be redeemed among men, but I cannot see doing so if you wish to memorialize the One who gave His sinless body to redeem us.

May YHWH bless!

Love in Messiah,
Larry

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My comment: I beg to differ with you! (this is my 28th Passover):

Num 9:9 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
10 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If any man of you or of your posterity shall be unclean by reason of a dead body, or be in a journey afar off, yet he shall keep the passover unto the LORD.
11 The fourteenth day of the second month at even they shall keep it, and eat it with unleavened bread and bitter herbs.
12 They shall leave none of it unto the morning, nor break any bone of it: according to all the ordinances of the passover they shall keep it.

As I have pointed out on previous occasions, artos could/may be referring to unleavened bread (adzoomos), simply due to context. For in Lev. (?:?) we find matsoth referred to as lechem. [I'm not at my computer, so I do not have access to my notes or Hebrew text, sorry. But rest assured, the priest is commanded to take lechem out of the basket of matsoth.]

Shalom, and a belated chag sameach!

quote:

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Originally posted by cook:
Emjanzen wrote: Eating leavened bread for the Master's Supper should not concern us because of the above information, and because there is no command in Scripture to eat unleavened bread on the 14th of Aviv.

My comment: I beg to differ with you! (this is my 28th Passover):

Num 9:9 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
10 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If any man of you or of your posterity shall be unclean by reason of a dead body, or be in a journey afar off, yet he shall keep the passover unto the LORD.
11 The fourteenth day of the second month at even they shall keep it, and eat it with unleavened bread and bitter herbs.
12 They shall leave none of it unto the morning, nor break any bone of it: according to all the ordinances of the passover they shall keep it.

Jay

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Brother Jay,

Yeah but notice verse 11 in your post. It says the 14th day of the second month AT EVEN. Even is sunset..which would technically be the 15th. So I don't mean any disrespect but you absolutely have not proven Matthew Janzen wrong with this particular Scripture.

14th is basically to finish up preparation time for Passover and the time to have Yeshua's Memorial Meal.. you don't actually eat the Passover meal (Seder) until the evening of the 14th, which considering Biblical times is the beginning of the 15th day.

Now once one starts their Seder (at even on the 14th which is actually the start of the 15th) all leaven should be out of their homes and they should be using unleavened bread for their Seder. This is why the Scripture you offered says: 11 The fourteenth day of the second month at even they shall keep it, and eat it with unleavened bread and bitter herbs. Because obviously if you have the Seder meal at even on the 14th which is the beginning of the 15th which is the beginning of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, you shouldn't have yeast period in your dwellings.

Matthew is 100% correct. There is no recording in Scripture that one cannot have leavened bread on the 14th before even. It's simply not there.

Yeshua and his Apostles had their meal some where between the 13th and the 14th BEFORE even it is supposed. I've always leaned toward them having it the 14th before evening. They had to have had their meal before even on the 14th since the lambs were slain when Yeshua was being crucified. So he wasn't around to actually eat the Passover meal at even (evening) on the 14th. Yeshua was our Passover lamb. If he was killed at the wrong time, then he simply wasn't the Messiah. And I know both of us indeed believe Yeshua (Yahushua or Yahshua whichever you prefer) was absolutely Mashiach.