posted 09-21-2002 11:30 AM         

I, as well as many others, have been studying this unique topic. I say "unique" topic because there are so many aspects to "covenant"(contractual)relationships between YHWH and Human Beings.

I would like to present my understanding of this relationship as briefly as possible.

Let us look at the scriptures that pertain to the "new" covenant:

KJV Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

KJV Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

The first part of this "New" covenant has been going on since the creation of man, that is:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Let us look at an example with David:

KJV Psalm 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

1. Who is creating the clean heart and putting His Spirit within David? YHWH

So, I suggest that YHWH has been fulfilling this part of the "New" covenant since Adam. For we know that only through YHWH's Spirit can we please Him. This would not constitute a difference in our current "covenant" relationship with YHWH.

I believe the difference in our current "covenant" relationship and the "New" covenant relationship YHWH is talking about is the second part of the "New" convenant defintion:

And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Question: Do we teach eachother today brother to brother?
Does everyone from the least to the greatest know
YHWH today?
Does YHWH still remember our sins today if we fail to
repent daily of them?

Here lies the difference between the "New" convenant and the current covenant relationship we as Firstfruits enjoy. I believe that this "New" covenant relationship is a future relationship between YHWH and the "physical" nation of Israel after YHWH resurects the "physical" nation of Israel to serve Him forever.

I also believe that Paul understood this and was directly explaining to the Jews at that time, and for us, that this relationship would be coming for them in the future. This explains the verses found in Hebrews. We know that the Jews were blinded by YHWH and that he had already promised that they would not enter into His Rest (Firstfruit Resurrection). Yet we also find that YHWH does say that He will bring the "whole" house of Israel back into their land and we also find the same verbage as to the relationship between that physical nation and YHWH in the following verses:

KJV Ezekiel 37:6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD. 7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone. 8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them. 9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live. 10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army. 11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts. 12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, 14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

KJV Ezekiel 37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God. 24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. 25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever. 26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

In these last few verses, we find very clearly that this physical people will not sin, they will live forever and YHWH's sanctuary will be in their midst forever.

Question: When is YHWH sanctuary placed in the land forever?

I know that this is alot to digest and many may disagree with me. That is fine. But for those who have never been presented with this view, I hope it may provide food for thought.

I would like to provide my understanding of exactly which covenant that is applicable to us today.

I truly believe that the "New" covenant is a covenant relationship between YHWH and the physical nation of Israel in a future time. This explains Paul's views in Hebrews where He only talks about the physical covenants given to the Hebrew people. The first covenant between YHWH and the Physical Nation of Israel given at Mt. Sinai, and the second "New" covenant to be given again to a Physical Nation of Israel in the future. Both of which were made possible by the coming of YAHSHUA.

There has always been another covenant in effect for the "firstfruits" of YHWH. That covenant was a "convenant of promise" or some would know it as the "convenant of faith" which is a "Spritual" covenant. This covenant has been applied to man kind since the creation of Adam.

Paul does a beautiful job of explaining this "firstfruit" covenant in the entire Chapter of Hebrews 11. Here we find that Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham Etc., will be firstfruits along with the other "chosen or elect" of YHWH throughout history, to hopefully include us, and everyone else who will be given that opportunity until Yahshua returns.

Question: How does Abel have the same promise and firstfruit status as we do?

Answer: The "Spiritual" covenant has never changed. The relationship has never changed. YHWH has been writing His Laws into the hearts of men who would humble themselves and choose to follow them since day one. He continues to renew right spirits and clean hearts in those who choose to follow him now. Remember the words of YHWH to Abraham:

KJV Genesis 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Abraham, Noah, Abel and all of the other "firstfruits" did exactly this, and hopefully we will continue to choose to do these things always.

Which exact laws they abode by is irrelevant. The fact that they believed in YHWH when He told them that there would be a "promise" of eternal inheritance, "Firstfruit" status, for them if they followed everything YHWH said for them to do constitutes the "faith" or "belief" required to truly worship YHWH in Spirit and in Truth.

May the peace and blessings of YHWH be poured out upon all those who seek His Face first in their lives always.

posted 09-22-2002 08:13 PM         

Hello again. Just one quick addition to my above posting while I have the opportunity. I am finding through my studies of the so-called "New" testament, that many changes and liberties have been implemented in what many would call our current "New" testament books. I am quite sure that is no big secret to many of you, hopefully all of you.

For example, most of the books are not compiled from any one manuscript word verbatim. Actually, a vast amount of the text is an accumulation of thousands of manuscripts of various ages. In fact, the majority of the "New" testament greek we see in most translations are based on the "Majority Text" or "Received Text", both of which are based on the very latest, not the oldest, manuscripts which were available to the translators.

Very few translations are actually taken from the "oldest" or "ancient" texts which, with use of some common sense, would seem to prove to be the more reliable and more accurate texts to use. This is not news to the scholarly world who study and have been study biblical texts. In fact, many scholars would tell you that most translations using the Majority Text or Received Text would most probably be less accurate than the ancient manuscripts around. The only problem is that there are not alot of ancient manuscripts for alot of the "New" testament books. There is, rather, a vast amount of later manuscripts which, over many years, most believably experienced changes.

What does this all mean you ask? Well, the software tool that I use, BibleWorks of which I am very impressed, does try to implement the "ancient" or older manuscripts when possible. You may be very interested to know that in the accounts of Passover found in Mathew and Mark, the ancient texts do not show the word "new" testament at all when Yahshua was addressing His disciples during Passover. These two verses are found in Math 26:28 and Mark 14:24.

In fact, the only gospel book which shows the greek word for "new", in reference to new testament, is Luke. Furthermore, it is a known fact that this rendetion comes from the "Majority Text", not an ancient text. Remember, however, most greek translations of the "New" testament are based on the "Majority" or "Received" Texts. It is possible, however, as I have done, to go to a biblical library and find for yourselves the above facts and some of the ancient texts.

I believe that Yahshua never told the disciples to drink of the blood of the "new" testament(covenant). I believe He merely reiterated that these new symbols did represent His "covenant of promise" for the disciples of which He clearly knew would be "Firstfruits".

This is a very fascinating an intense research project which I would recommend for everyone to do. It can be accomplished and the truth is out there in many well documented studies of the bilbical greek texts.

I will leave you with one last supporting effort of my understanding:

KJV Luke 1:69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; 70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: 71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; 72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant; 73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

Question: Yahshua is our Horn of Salvation from the House of David right?

Question: YHWH clearly shows that Yahshua was coming to permanently place into affect the "covenant" that was promised to Abraham right?

Question: What was the "covenant" he promised to Abraham, the "covenant of promise or faith" or the "New Covenant" talked about for the first time hundreds of years later in Jeremiah?

May YHWH bless and keep you all as you seek His Face always,

your brother marty

posted 09-23-2002 10:25 AM         

Welcome to the board. My name is DeAnna. I've been reading/writing on this board for a few years now. I have learned so much through this sight. I too find the "New Covenant" a most interesting and wonderful topic. I have a different "view" (smile)… but that's what discussions are for, right?

From what I understand, you pretty much see/feel that the new covenant has two parts. And one part is current; "first fruits", and one part has yet to come. "No man shall teach his neighbor, know Yah, for all shall know…" right?

It is my understanding that "testiment" and "covenant" are the same thing. Am I in error?
Anybody?

It seems to me that the "new covenant" or "new testiment" or "word of Yah", came through the Yahshua the messiah. Just as you view "Israel" the "physical nation", many view Yahshua messiah, a "physical being", that once lived in his own flesh, and now dwells in our flesh, or some say he does, and some say no, he has not come back yet. That the Holy Spirit dwells in them, but Yahshua is sitting at the "Right hand" of the Father. Above the moon, sun, and stars? Why yes, he "is" > above the "moon, sun and stars" for He is "above" or "higher" then "all". But does He "physically" dwell physically above the physical moon, sun and stars? Yahshua (Yahs salvation) is of the Father. The Father is "Spirit", not physical. His "Right hand" is not a physical spot on a physical throne, but true justice in the highest authority.

We "have" the physical, that we may "understand" the spirit. The spirit is not physical, but the physical "Testifies" to the spirit.

Example: we have a physical famine or war. We read that it is written that Yah sends a spiritual "famine" into the earth. Not a "famine" of bread or a thirst for water, but of hearing the true Word of Yah", which is what we shall "Live by"… right? And we read of a spiritual war as well.

But how would we "know" or understand what a famine or war was, if we didn't have something to go by here on the earth plane? Now the "physical" famine, is NOT the "famine" that Yah speaks of… but it "Testifies" to what Yah speaks of. See what I mean? We know it's horrible. It's a very slow and painful death. That it opens us up to diseases and sores break out all over the flesh. And the belly swells up real bad. I don't think anything is more pityful then any "starving" being. It is just truly horrible.

It's amazing what a little "nutrition" can do for the body huh? And you know what…it doesn't take much nutrition either. Our bodies can go a long way with just a little… daily.

I do not think the "New covenant" is in two parts really, I think the "First fruits", is understanding.
Which brings forth more fruit.

Some hear the first covenant… laws, statutes, judgments… an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.
Keep the sabbath. Do no murder. Build a "stick" TEMPORARY" house/ booth. Etc.

I think many, many, many are hearing the "new covenant" or the "renewed" covenant, that is not "Like" the other… but is the other in a "new" manifestation. It takes on a "Transformation" if you will.
"do unto others"
"Forgive that ye may be".
"turn the cheek"
"give to all who ask, turn none away"
"forgive 70 x 70", "do violence to no man"… etc.

I don't think ANY of us "Teach" eachother to "know" Yah. For one cannot "teach" someone to "Know" Yah. Only Yah can reveal himself. We may share what we feel Yah has "answered" us… but to "know him"? no. The only way one can get to "Know Yah" is to talk to him themself. Which is the only way any of us can get to know any of us. We can hear what others have to say about someone, but until we have conversations with them ourselves, we shall not ever really get to know them.

You quote: "After those days,
saith the LORD, I will put my law in their
inward parts, and write it in their hearts;
and will be their God, and they shall be my
people."

Is the "law" of Yah, the "word" of Yah? Of course it is… right?
Is the law/word of Yah salvation? Absolutely. That is what it is for right?
To "save", to bring to life that which was dead.
A covenant is an "agreement" right? One must first "agree" that they should "do unto others, as they would have others do unto them" before it can manifest. So the "agreement" or the understanding is the "First fruit" which brings forth the manifestation of it.

You ask:
"Does everyone from the least to the greatest know YHWH today?"
I answer; you'd be surprised! Everyone I talk to, acknowledges Yah "blesses". Acknowledges that Yah has mysterious ways. Even the two gay men I work for, when I say something like, ahhh.. see there, Yah did that"… they come back with a big smile… "God takes care of us doesn't He DeAnna". There are very few people that will argue with; "do unto others…"

I mean think about it… how can one argue with that? How could anyone really believe that this is not fair, and just?
Because someone has not gotten word from Yah to "keep the physical sabbath" doesn't mean they haven't gotten word from Yah! Yah has different coversations and instructions for many different people!
Did he tell jacob to offer his son? No… He told jacob other things, as He did EliYah, and Moses. Etc.

When one feels it would be "wrong" in there very heart and soul to do a thing or not do a thing, is that not Yahs word in their heart? And if we obey, did we not obey the voice of Yah, and if we do not obey that voice saying; this is wrong, is there not recompense? And through our recompense do we not learn the word of Yah?

Yah says He will put his covenant/law/agreement/testiment in our inward parts.
Does Yahshua not say; "Lo' the Kingdom is within you"?
Does Yahshua not say; "eat my body" (give to all who ask… / law) drink my blood". (bare the guilt; "why do you not take the wrong for the sake of peace?" Is this not Him (the word) "in us"?

The "Only" time Yahshua got "sharp" (two edged sword) with someone, was when they were condemning!

Mankind/flesh/beast; prays on condemnation. They sell, and buy, due to condemnation. The accuser prays on condemnation.

Yes there is physical Israel, but physical Israel is not spiritual Israel. Nor is the physical jerusalem the spiritual jerusalem that comes from the heavens. But the teaching of Peace does come from the heavens or a higher understanding. And physical Israel and physical Jerusalem is a "shadow" or testifying to the spiritual. And when people quit condemning eachother through trust in Yah. Then physical Israel will physically dwell in peace or without war. But it takes war and recompense to turn. To desire a better way.

The "land" that we "Return" to, that was given to jacob/Israel and his children, was the land of caanan, or the land of "humility". We all enter into "humility" before we truly trust Yah, and the work of His hands.
When we trust Yah to "write his laws on our heart", then we no longer tell eachother what to do, but encourage each other to talk to Yah about it. And remind eachother of his word; "do unto others…", but with no judgment attached.

This is getting long, and I have to go, so I'll just stop now. (smile)

May Yah bless you,
Love,
D'

posted 09-23-2002 03:27 PM         

Peace and Love to you. Thank you for your gracious reply. I honor your understanding. To further explain my understanding to your questions, I just wanted to add the following:

1. I do not feel that there are two parts of the "New" Covenant. I simply feel the "New" covenant is not in affect yet. There is a "Firsfruit" or Spiritual Covenant of Promise or Faith whose reward is Eternal Life as a YHWH with the Father and His Son. I do not feel that reward is the same in the "New" covenant, as I feel those people will be physical people not ever to enjoy the spiritual existence we as Firstfruits shall have.

2. Yes, the word for testament and covenant are the same. It simply means contract. The First Party will do these things and the Second Party agrees to do this thing if the First Party adheres to there side of the contract. Our relationship with YHWH is purely conditional. IF we choose not to follow His ways and teachings, YHWH will not honor His side of the contract by giving us eternal life as a spiritual being.

3. It is here within the second part of the contracts or covenants that I proclaim a difference between covenants.

A. "Covenant of Promise or Faith"

First Party- YHWH's elect throughout the ages and up until Yahshua returns. Agree to follow YHWH's laws and principles with the help of YHWH's Spirit

Second Party- YHWH. Agrees to reward those who He deems has fulfilled the above, rulership in His kingdom as a eternal, Spirit Being and YHWH forever.

B. "New Covenant"

First Party- The rest of the physical people or house of Israel who were not found worthy to enter into YHWH's rest or participate in the Better resurection of the Firstfruits.

Second Party- YHWH. Agrees to bring them back into the land and cleanse them, putting His Spirit in them and giving them life physically so they can serve Him forever, which He does for His NAME"S Sake.

Differences: 1. "New Covenant" relationship does not involve spiritual existence or sonship, daughtership with Father Yah YHWH.

Maybe this will help to explain my understanding a little better. Anyhoo, remember that this is my faith and I certainly do not expect you or anyone to ever have to agree with me. YHWH is a loving, merciful and wonderful creator who is shaping us according to His Plan. He alone knows our hearts and thoughts and can forgive our sins. I honor all those who seek YHWH first in their lives and practice "Loving" all people.

I thoroughly enjoy and appreciate your comments and who ever else chooses to share their understandings. Are we not commanded to this very thing in a loving and honorable manner? I see alot of that going on here on this forum. That is why I am choosing to post here after many years of reluctancy.

May YHWH bless and keep you,

posted 09-23-2002 06:49 PM         

Jer 31:31-33
31 Behold, the days come, saith Yahueh, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Yahudah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith Yahueh:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith Yahueh, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their Elohe', and they shall be my people.

Heb 8:8-13
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith Yahueh, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Yahudah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith Yahueh.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith Yahueh; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a Elah, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know Yahueh: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Heb 12:23-24
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to Elah the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Yahushua the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Strong's:

2319 chadash (khaw-dawsh');from 2318; new: KJV-- fresh, new thing.

2318 chadash (khaw-dash');a primitive root; to be new; causatively, to rebuild:KJV-- renew, repair.

2537 kainos (kahee-nos');of uncertain affinity; new (especially in freshness; while 3501 is properly so with respect to age: KJV-- new.

3501 neos (neh'-os);including the comparative neoteros (neh-o'-ter-os); a primary word; "new", i.e. (of persons) youthful, or (of things) fresh; figuratively, regenerate:KJV-- new, young.

Vine's Lexicon:

NEW; NEW MOON

A. Verb.
chadash ^2318^, "to renew." This verb occurs in post-Mosaic literature (with the exception of ). The root is found in all the Semitic languages with the same sense; usually the radicals are h-d-th. The first appearance of chadash in the Bible is in <1 Sam. 11:14>: "Then said Samuel to the people, Come, and let us go to Gilgal, and renew the kingdom there."
B. Noun.
chodesh ^2320^, "new moon; month." This noun occurs about 283 times in biblical Hebrew and in all periods.
The word refers to the day on which the crescent reappears: "So David hid himself in the field: and when the new moon was come, the king sat him down to eat meat" <1 Sam. 20:24>. uses this word of the feast which occurred on that day: "Your new moons [festivals] and your appointed feasts my soul hateth..." (cf. ).
Chodesh can refer to a "month," or the period from one new moon to another. The sense of a measure of time during which something happens occurs in : "And it came to pass about three months after, that it was told Judah...." In a related nuance the word refers not so much to a measure of time as to a period of time, or a calendar month. These "months" are sometimes named and sometimes numbered .
C. Adjective.
chadash ^2319^, "new; renewed." This adjective appears 53 times in biblical Hebrew.
Chadash means "new" both in the sense of recent or fresh (as the opposite of old) and in the sense of something not previously existing. The first nuance appears in : "Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the Lord." The first biblical occurrence of chadash demonstrates the second meaning: "Now there arose up a new king over Egypt, which knew not Joseph." This second nuance occurs in Isaiah's discussion of the future salvation. For example, in a new saving act of God will bring forth a new song of praise to Him: "Sing unto the Lord a new song, and his praise from the end of the earth...." The Psalter uses the phrase "a new song" in this sense; a new saving act of God has occurred and a song responding to that act celebrates it. The "new" is often contrasted to the former: "Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them" . employs this same nuance speaking of the new covenant (cf. ).
A unique meaning appears in , where chadash appears to mean "renewed"; just as God's creation is renewed and refreshed, so is His compassion and loving-kindness: "They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness." This nuance is more closely related to the verb from which this word is derived.
(from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words)
(Copyright (C) 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)

The Primary characters are the same in both these words, only the vowel pointing which is a recent invention of 700-900 years ago makes any distinction making them be listed as 2 words in Srong's or anywhere else.

posted 09-24-2002 12:03 AM         

Thank you for your response. I am not quite sure exactly how the last posting is supposed to fit in, though I am aware of the hebrew and greek words used for "New" and the variances in scripture.

I am pleasantly surprised that I have not had any disagreements as to the possibilities of the two separate "covenant" relationships that I understand to exist and that I feel I have atleast adequately shown through the above scriptures to exist. There seems to be little room for doubt that Ezekiel 37 is talking about a physical resurrection and eternal existence for those people with YHWH's permanent sanctuary or the "New" City of Jerusalem in the midst of this physical nation.

That covenant relationship YHWH will share with that physical nation must be different than the covenant relationship with the Firstfruits. Very simply, the contract or covenant with the Firstfruits will have been long since fulfilled by the time Ezekiel 37 occurs.( according to my understanding )

The Firstfruits will have been long since changed into YHWH's and will be full fledged, spiritual Elohims. We will be as Yahshua is. Those physically resurrected people in Ezekiel 37 are never going to be Firstfruits to YHWH. So, it would seem very feasible that the same contract or covenant is certainly not applicable to this physically resurrected nation. There can be only one "Firstfruit" harvest, a better resurrection with better promises. This physical resurrection does not have these same promises, of this there is no doubt.

At that time, I believe there will exist a re-newed relationship between YHWH and physical Human beings. One relationship that Father Yah intended from the beginning, but because of the carnal mind,(advesarial spirit), was not possible until Satan is destroyed and all sin with him.

Paul understood very well these two separate covenants and their meanings and application to human beings. To me, it is much easier to understand Paul's writings when you understand which covenant He was referring to, instead of trying to say that He was always talking about the same covenant.

May YHWH bless and keep you all who seek His Face always,

your brother marty

posted 09-25-2002 01:30 PM         

We are also interested in fully understanding Jer.31 as well as its connection to both Ez.37 and Is.28. We would answer your questions the following way:

Question:

1.Do we teach each other today brother to brother?

We believe this text isn't talking about your family's "brother", but rather the two brothers mentioned in the text - Judah and E'phraim (aka the House of Judah and the House of Israel). Thus Judah will not teach E'phraim and E'phraim will not teach Judah. This we believe we can prove has in fact come to pass (we have only one side of the equation that is E'phraim knowing Judah's laws). If you are interested, please let us know.

2. Does everyone from the least to the greatest know YHWH today?

The Hebrew word for "least" and "greatest" can also be interpreted as "immature" and "mature", which we define as "those that rely predominantly upon faith" and "those who have a strong faith but also abide certain aspects of His law" whether it's the Law of Hillel, the Laws of Noahite, or the Halachic Laws of Israel. Matt.5.19 uses these same terms, however Y'hoshua defines the least in this text as "those that annul the law and teaches other to do so" while the greatest is defined as "whoever does them and teaches them". It was from here; by the way, we came by our above definitions.

3. Does YHWH still remember our sins today if we fail to repent daily of them?

We believe Y-HVH remembers only intentional (willful) sins but not sins of ignorance or weakness. Thus He is a merciful G-d to all those who also show mercy like His. This is what we suspect true love is about.

>>> Here lies the difference between the "New" covenant and the current covenant relationship we as Firstfruits enjoy. I believe that this "New" covenant relationship is a future relationship between YHWH and the "physical" nation of Israel after YHWH resurrects the "physical" nation of Israel to serve Him forever. <<<

We agree, but this doesn't mean that those not born early enough to enjoy its full fruits are condemned, rather we believe they fall under the criteria of "least", which means they will still see His mercy when He comes again.

We have strong views on Ez.37 because we sometimes feel as if we may have a part in it. We'll explain how we see this- first Ez.37.1-3 says that He will one day bring all Israel back unto Him with the grafted-in, united with them as one people (we add the Grafted-in because both our sages and Isaiah tell us they will be joined to Israel). Then we suspect that Ez.37.4-6 is showing the first leg of this great miracle where Y'hoshua breathed life into His early Church. The next part we believe in Ez.37.7-10 is the foretelling of E'phraim coming again to life (after 2700 years), for they were once lost among the Goyim (how this will be done we believe is shown Is.28).

First a "call" (kol) shall go out, which we see in two main places- the first coming forth from Catholic Church the call being from Vatican II and John Paul II allowing Catholics to:
1. return to Scripture as a source of Revelation, and
2. return to their Halachic traditions, so long as they do not forget their "first Love"

The second from the Protestant world possibly through the Messianic Movement or all the movements like it though what that call is we are not as sure of.

Then an upheaval/earthquake (ra'ash) will come forth from this call as the world (particularly Judah) begins to see E'phraim arising within the body of HaMoshiach from these two main sources (Catholic and Protestant). All these sources we believe will come together, but they will not "come to life" until the four winds (chapter eight of Revelations) blow that will destroy a nation (unnamed, thus we suspect verifying a prophetic message). We believe chapter seven and the sixth seal must be fulfilled to understand the earthquake found in Ez.37 because it coincides to the earthquake of the sixth seal, Rev.6.12 which we see as the revealing of these prophecies and speaking of what "must soon come to pass".

Yet there is another possible explanation for the upheaval/earthquake (ra'ash) of Ez.37.7 and it would still be connected to Rev.6.12-7 and this is the question:

"Won't you tell us what you mean by this?” referencing Ez.37.19-17. Instead of answering this question they bring fulfillment to another prophecy through (as we believe) the council of Rev.6.12-7, which will be answered by opening up the book of prophecy and thus revealing the song of the singers.

We welcome feedback and Scriptural proofs to help clarify any misunderstandings.

posted 09-25-2002 01:59 PM         

You wrote:

>>> There can be only one "Firstfruit" harvest, a better resurrection with better promises. <<<

Actually, based upon our Jewish heritage there were three feasts of first fruits, and that has been very helpful for us to better understand Scripture and the link to Ez.37. To elaborate on this we see:

The first festival of "first fruits" is HaOmer (called Easter by Christians) when our ancestors harvested the barley and waved this offering before Y-HVH. HaMoshiach was resurrected on the Feast of HaOmer, thus He is the first fruit of the barley harvest.

The next feast of first fruits comes fifty days later and is called Shavout (or Pentecost). It celebrates the wheat harvest in the spring and we see this as the first believers of HaMoshiach who were "harvested" when the Ruach and Chiah came down upon (as wind/disciplining and fire/unifying) and breathed life into our Church.

The last harvest (which we are celebrating right now) is called Succos (we see as comparable the Octave of ALL Saints in Catholicism; in Protestantism it's Thanksgiving) and represents our thanksgiving for a mixed harvest of "first" fruits, like the body of believers who shall return with Him for they shall also be "mixed", as both Jews and Greeks (Israel and Grafted-in).

So how do we connect these three feasts to Ez.37 "dry bones"? Shavout we see as the first set of Dry Bones in this prophecy, Ez.37.1-6, because Y'hoshua did breathe His breath (we believe the Neshamah or mission calling/water) into them in the upper room in Jn.20.22 (Shavout brought the other two higher spirits (in our understanding) based on their attributes given in Acts 2.2-3). Succos, the mixed "first" fruits we see in E'phraim's return from Diaspora based upon Jer.31 and Is.28. After all, even E'phraim was a mixed breed, part Yosif and part Egyptian, and thus should it be so surprising that when they return they bring the mixed fruits of Y'hoshua's missions with them. And it is these we see in Ez.37.7-10, yet to explain exactly why this is so is not easy.

Lastly, HaMoshiach was the first of ALL first fruits (since His resurrection). We believe Ez.37.15-17 references that first century Jewish body of believers that was grafted first to the Goyim (Is.28.11) who in turn do help bring E'phraim to life within them (Is.28.12-13, cf. Rom.11). This can be seen when Y'hoshua took the stick of Judah and joined it with Yosif (that is E'phraim) and made these "one" in His hand. Yet this same text proclaims that one-day the order will be reversed and the stick of Yosif (E'phraim) will now join to Judah. When they do this will be (as we suspect) fulfilled by the missions of Y'hoshua and Zerub'babel, the two witnesses. Then we believe the full harvest (all of Israel) will come in and the prophecy of Ez.37.11-14 will come to pass.

Then all Israel will be under one King and we shall no longer follow the ways of the goyim around us-
Barukh habah baShem Ad-nai! Omen!

posted 09-25-2002 03:38 PM         

I hope this email finds you all well and being blessed. I must admit that I have never heard nor have I seen most of the understandings that were presented in the last 2 or 3 postings. Having said that, I must also add, in love, that I do not agree with them. However, again, we all have individual faiths to work out with fear in trembling. We should be able to share these different understandings with eachother in an orderly and loving fashion.

I am, however, at a loss as to how we cannot agree to the different rewards the Firstfruits experience as opposed to the physically resurrected nation of Israel in Eze. 37.

Firstfruits will become YHWHs, spiritual, eternal beings. They are members of a Spiritual Nation and part of a YHWH family.

KJV 1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

KJV Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of YAH and of Yahshua, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Physically resurrected human beings are not YHWHs and will not get to enjoy the benefits thereof.

KJV Ezekiel 37:6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

ETC., Clearly, the rest of this chapter does not mention any of the Firstfruit characteristics, only human characteristics with the exception of being sin free.

How, then, does one reconcile that there are not 2 separate contracts being applied to these two separate groups

Also, no one has commented on the time frame concerning the resurrection of the Firstfruits and the Physical resurrection of the rest of the house of Israel in Eze. 37. No where in Eze 37 is being changed in a twinkling of an eye, to that enitity like YAHSHUA, anywhere to be mentioned. IT is very clear that this is a physical resurrection and not during any trumpet blowing,etc.

I would be interested on your views concerning the above points.

May YHWH bless and keep all who seek His face first,

brother marty

posted 09-25-2002 07:31 PM         

Shalom, All!

Having followed this thread so far, I too have a totally different understanding of the New Covenant, and a totally different understanding of the first fruits of the New Covenant as well. Yet, in that here it seems the understanding of the New Covenant is being explained by the first fruits, it's possibly a better thing to speak of those, rather than exactly about the Covenant, for only as one begins to see that the first fruits have yet to come, will it be seen in a more comprehensive manner the full meaning of the New Covenant. This is a truly wonderful story of Perfect Construction by the Master Builder, and due to that fact, it is truly my pleasure to present more of His Plan to you. Not all will receive, but there will be some, by Yahweh's grace, who will see the beauty, and Praise, and shout, "HalleluYah!"

In order to see this beauty, there are some things that will have to be re-thought, and new conclusions come to. There is an understanding among many that there has only been One Who has ever lived upon this earth, and gone into the Heavens [i.e., the Third Heaven where Yahweh lives]. This is something that is erroneous, for all we need to do is read, for it is very easy to see that Elijah was taken up into Heaven in a fiery chariot: “And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven” (2Kings 2: 11).

Some say this doesn’t mean what it is saying, but I am certain that it does mean exactly that, and for two reasons: 1/ The sons of the prophets decided, against Elisha’s command, to send fifty strong men to ensure that the Spirit of Yahweh hadn’t cast Elijah upon a mount or into a valley, for Elisha said, “Ye shall not send” (2Kings 2: 16). But, because these sons were not able to believe, finally Elisha, being ashamed of their unbelief, told them to go look, and so those fifty men looked far and wide for three days, and found nothing. They found nothing because there was nothing upon the earth to find. Truly, Yahweh had taken Elijah up into Heaven, yet there were still some [as there are many today] who still did not believe.

2/ Just after the search by the fifty, there was a very interesting happening that occurred, this finalizing for me the truth that Yahweh surely brought Elijah to the Third Heaven: “And he [Elisha] went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. [Here we have “a group of boys from the town” (New Living Translation), who doubted the veracity of the story, and so they play with the bald-headed Elisha with their chant]. 24: And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of Yahweh. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them. 25: And he went from thence to mount Carmel, and from thence he returned to Samaria” (2Kings 2: 23-25, KJV, emphasis & notations mine). Without a doubt, anyone who doubts that Elijah was indeed taken up into the Third Heaven by that fiery chariot, is courting the wrath of heaven, even as those boys did.

What I am hereby saying is that there are a few who have been taken from this world to the Third Heaven, just as surely as Elisha was certain about Elijah’s cosmic journey. We know that one was Moses, although he was buried at first [Deuteronomy 34: 5, 6], and then, resurrected from that grave, and taken to heaven. He was buried because he came under the power of hasatan [first death] by his sin against Yahweh, which turned into a sin of pride, greatly hated of Elohim. In other words, although Yahweh [i.e., the Son, who was Michael, the Leader of the Hosts of Yahweh (see Jude 9 and Genesis 48: 16)] wanted to take Moses into the Third Heaven, but because he sinned, he could not be of the “first fruits,” and had to be taken from the place of captivity [the grave], from there to be brought to Heaven. Moses, Elijah, and Enoch, although either presently now in Heaven, or else living upon another inhabited planet of those sinless of Yahweh’s Universe, are not of those who will be first fruits, for they are yet to come, the number of them will be 144,000! In Matthew 17 [Mark 9 & Luke 9], we see Yahshua saying just before He goes up into the mount with Peter, James, and John, “There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom” (Matthew 16: 28). What Peter, James, and John actually saw [it was no vision, it was in real time], was “The Kingdom of the Son of Man Coming in Miniature,” Yahshua glorified, and Moses [representing those who will be called from out the graves at Yahshua’s Second Coming] and Elijah [representing those 144,000 who will be translated at Yahshua’s Second Coming] showing themselves to be the totality of the Kingdom!

Now, just as you get used to this scenario, I have another one for you: We read, “Yahshua, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51: And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom [disclosing forever the termination of the Aaronic Priesthood]; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52: And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53: And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many” (Matthew 27: 50-53, KJV). These dear ones that came forth from the graves were brought back to the Third Heaven with Yahshua at His Ascension, for it is written, “Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive [thou hast led captive the slaves of captivity]: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that Yahweh Elohim might dwell among them” (Psalms 68:18), and this is reiterated in the New Testament: “Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men” (Ephesians 4: 8).

Now, that which is seldom asked, and if asked, seldom answered, is that these who were brought back to Heaven with Yahshua, constitute the Four Beasts and Twenty-four Elders noted in Revelation 4: 4, 6! When we look over into the fifth chapter of Revelation, beginning with verse 8, just after “the Lamb” takes the book from the hand of the Father [the One on the Throne], they all fell before the Lamb, and say, “Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to Elohim by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10: And hast made us unto our Elohim kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth” (Revelation 5: 9, 10). Only those who have been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb could sing this song, thus we know from this very moment, that there are twenty-eight of our peers attending the Pre-advent Judgment of the Righteous [that gives me a great feeling of our having an understanding group attending that Judgment, aiding Yahshua as judgment starting from the dead righteous continues even until the living righteous, which may already have happened] which is going on in Heaven right at this time, for Scripture declares, “For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of Elohim [Yahweh knows all of those who will be in the book of life, and all who will be in the book of death, BEFORE Yahshua comes the Second Time to our planet, for the Investigative Aspect of the Judgment is over before Yahshua comes]: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of Elohim” (1Peter 4: 17)?

Now that we have gotten these things out of the way, we may look towards those who are the “first fruits,” for there are many who do not recognize anything about them, but, these are the 144,000 spoken of within Revelation, chapters seven and fourteen. Actually, these dear ones are mentioned throughout the Scriptures, for man, made in the image and likeness of Elohim, have been part of the greatest rescue attempt in the Universe, a Plan that was made before the foundation of the world, and I believe soon will come to its fruition – far sooner than most would like to believe I think! Yet, there is a problem of “uncleanness,” for all the righteous who have come into contact with death [who have died due to sin still in the life] are ceremonially unclean, for “like Moses,” they came under the power of hasatan – the dominion of first death. Remember when sin is totally taken from the life, there is no longer a reason for first death, thus translation should be the goal of all of us as we come towards the Second Coming of Yahshua Messiah! Yahweh is unable to send Yahshua to this planet to bring forth those who have come under that defilement, until there are “first fruits” that have been brought forth and “waved” before Father, that the ceremonial defilement of those who have died in Messiah may be taken away. The first fruits must always be received first, and then the harvest!

“As the Levitical priests could officiate in the ceremonial cleansing clad in their pure white robes, because they were uncontaminated by contact with the dead, so the 144,000 Melchisedec priests, uncontaminated by death and clad in the pure white robes of [Messiah’s] righteousness, will offer unto the Lord, “an offering in righteousness” (Malachi 3: 3). This is the perfect [Messianic] character. The power of the “everlasting gospel” will then have produced 144,000 perfect characters just like [Yahshua’s] – the second Adam. This will give them the title of the “first born” sons of [Elohim]. They will be the first among earth’s heedless billions who will have reached the acme of . . . perfection in [Yahshua], who is the Purifier and Refiner of silver and gold. When the 144,000 reach this ideal state, then the antitype of the offering of the red heifer will be reached.

“The righteous dead who are ceremonially defiled or unclean, by coming in contact with death, are held in bondage in Satan’s prison-house – the grave. These cannot be released until the 144,000 “sons of [Elohim]” are manifested. [Yahshua] says, “I have the keys of hell (the grave) and death” (Rev. 1: 8). He has been holding these keys for a very long time. For whom and for what is He waiting? He surely does not delight in keeping the righteous dead in Satan’s prison-house! Paul answers this question in Romans 8: 11-39. The whole creation is waiting for the manifestation of the sons of [Elohim] – the 144,000 Melchisedec priests whom He is now purifying – the “first-born” sons/daughters. The righteous dead are crying to be delivered from the body of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of [Elohim]. “The whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now . . . waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body (from the grave).

“The sons of Levi” are the 144,000 Melchisedec priests, for the Levitical priesthood passed away at the cross – (Hebrews 6: 20). This purifying work takes place in the closing work of the judgment, and is like a “refiner’s fire, and like fuller’s soap.” The 144,000 will pass through the “furnace of affliction” sufficiently heated to burn out all their dross. They must stand without fault before the throne of [Elohim]. They must stand before their Gethsemane – that they might develop the [Messiah-like] character to enable them to “offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness” – the fullness of the image of [Yahshua] (A STUDY ON THE 144,000, Cora A. Hoopes).

We have learned a number of things from the life of Yahshua, but maybe nothing is so clear to those who live obediently to Scripture in anticipation of His coming as this:
“Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered” (Heb. 5: 8);
“For even hereunto were ye called: because Messiah also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps” (1Peter 2: 21);
“For Messiah also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to Elohim, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit” (1Peter 3: 18);
“Forasmuch then as Messiah hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin” (1Peter 4: 1);
“But the Elohim of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Yahshua Messiah, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you” (1Peter 5: 10); and
“That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death” (Philippians 3: 10).

There is a baptism that Yahshua spoke about to James and John when they came together and asked that they be able to be seated at His right hand and His left, remember that? These are Yahshua’s words in answer: “Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able. And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father” (Matthew 20: 22, 23). What was it that Yahshua spoke of when he said, “Are you able to be baptized with the baptism that I will be baptized with?” Yahshua spoke of the baptism of suffering; of feeling that Father has actually turned away forevermore from Him, and Yahshua did suffer such a baptism on that cross of Calvary! Yahshua is asking that you and I allow Him, through His Spirit, to prepare us for our baptism of suffering, for it is surely in a point of chaos that our true relationship, with our true faith and agape, will be seen by the entire Universe.

The Universe needs to see that the Plan made from the foundation of the world is able to make sinful mankind come away from the tendencies of that fallen nature, and all want to see Messiah’s sinless character manifested in our sinful flesh, just as Yahshua manifested a godly character when He traveled His great journey of suffering, that was such an ultimate success! This “baptism of suffering” is that which you and I must gladly go through, [even pray to receive] so that those who are in hasatan’s prison-house, defiled by ceremonial uncleanness, may by the “Voice of the Archangel” [the Leader of the angels], be called forth from their prison walls forever, to live and love with Yahweh. Speaking of the 144,000, the “first fruits” of those from the earth, it is written: “Else what shall they do which are baptized [by suffering] for the dead [who have all died in the Lord, Yahshua], if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead [i.e., if they who have died in Messiah rise not at all, why do those 144,000 have to be baptized with suffering, that those dead in Messiah may be brought forth to Yahweh and the Lamb, forever?] (1Corinthians 15: 29, KJV, emphasis & notations mine)?

We are but a hairs-breath away from those days that will bring about a people who so truly walk by faith, ready for anything, that they will be part of the greatest rescue operation the world has ever seen. Will you join together with me, and ask Yahweh to make us both willing to receive what is to come, that we might be among those “first fruits” which Yahshua may wave before our Father, so that Father will give Yahshua permission to come back to this planet to bring forth those captives into the light of eternal day? By His grace, let us all say, “Yes! HalleluYah!”

So then, in that the "first fruits" are as yet future, we are then able to see that the New Covenant is being brought into effect from the beginning. That trouble with Israel was that "faith" wasn't an option, and therefore, while Israel was going about to make "self" righteous by works of selfishness, they lost all that they should have learned by the gospel that was preached to them through the ceremonial law and Aaronic priesthood. There is still a possibility that we too will do the same thing by setting up ourselves and our actions as the manner of effecting righteousness, but truly, only "Messiah our Righteousness" understood by the meek and lowly, will enable any one of us to be all that we might be by faith in Yahweh's promises. Yahshua is our justification, and our sanctification, so in order for justification, we must believe that we receive it by faith in His finished work. And, in order to receive sanctification, or Messiah-likeness, we must too receive that daily by faith that He is doing His work in our lives as we do only that which we are able to do: Prayer, study His Word, and meditate on those words. As we do what only we can do and are faithful in that, then the New Covenant tells us He will be also faithful in His promises to make us in character as true sons and daughters of Yahweh. May we all receive and share it!

posted 09-26-2002 12:45 PM         

There seem to be many opinions about this topic of which I am completely unaware. I would like to bring forth a couple of questions in my mind about the last post.

Firstly, according to my understanding, there has been only one man who has ascended to the throne of YAH and now sits at His right side. How else could one explain the following verses:

KJV John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

KJV John 1:18 No man hath seen YAH at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

These are the words of YAHSHUA of which there was no lie found in His mouth. To say others have performed this feat would be incorrect. There are different "heavens", but only one way to view a spiritually resurrected human.

Let's look at another few scriptures:

KJV 1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

KJV 1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming

KJV 1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: 7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

We can see very clearly that no Firstfruit has ever been resurrected before YAHSHUA. In fact, Yahshua being the First of the Firstfruits absolutely leaves no room for argument that other Firstfruits have experienced spiritual resurrection before YAHSHUA.

KJV 1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept

.KJV 1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

KJV 1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall
descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first

Secondly, the point was made that "faith" was not an option for Israel. I must in love disagree with this thought process as well. Let us examine what Paul says in Hebrews:

KJV Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. 3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. 4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. 5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. 7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. 8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. 13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

KJV Hebrews 11:30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days. 31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace. 32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:

It appears to me that "Faith" has been thriving in YAH's elect throughout the entire history of mankind. In fact, it is my understanding that this is the reason these folks will be firstfruits, something not yet achieved until the return of Yahshua.

May YHWH bless and keep all who seek His Face,

your brother marty

posted 09-27-2002 01:32 PM         

Firstly, I will answer brmarty's questions by saying that there is enough information throughout Scripture [and I've noted a few] so that I may begin at any of these and ask the meaning of Yahshua's words in light of that which has been stated throughout Scripture. In other words, what we are to be able to do throughout Scripture is told us in Isaiah: "Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10: For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11: For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people" (Isaiah 28: 9-11). We are to put line upon line, and verse upon verse, here a little and there a little we are to find, and then, by putting them together, we come to various conclusions. I'll give you a for instance:

We see that Yahshua became glorified and Moses and Elijah appeared to Him in the Mount in Matthew 17. Now, having presented this truth along with the many others that I noted, we must then come to Yahshua's words and try to make sense from Matthew 17. That which I have always followed as hermeneutically sound is that only with the preponderance of evidence am I able to come to the correct conclusion, which is then to be received as truth. Surely you must be acquainted with this understanding? Yet, nevertheless, I will answer your words and by the grace of Yahshua, allow you these answers!

QUOTEThere seem to be many opinions about this topic of which I am completely unaware. I would like to bring forth a couple of questions in my mind about the last post.

Firstly, according to my understanding, there has been only one man who has ascended to the throne of YAH and now sits at His right side. How else could one explain the following verses:

KJV John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
UNQUOTE >>>>>You are simply using the King James Version without looking to the original texts. Example: "For only I, the Son of Man, have come to earth [i.e., I am the only One Who came here from Elohim to instruct you] and will return to heaven again" (John 3: 13, New Living Translation, emphasis & notation mine). When we use the King James, in order to be able to keep all that is said in context, we must take the entirety of the Chapter, so when we go to verse 31 and unward, we see these words which establish the context about which Yahshua is speaking in the King James: "He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all. 32: And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony. 33: He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that Elohim is true. 34: For he whom Elohim hath sent speaketh the words of Elohim: for Elohim giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him (John 3: 31-34)."

QUOTEKJV John 1:18 No man hath seen YAH at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared himUNQUOTE.>>>>>This proves or disproves nothing concerning that which you seem to want to emulate, so I will just ask that you be clearer in stating these words from John 1: 18, and tell me why they are here, for they tell me nothing about that which you are seemingly asking by your first notation from John 3: 13. I will give you another translation: "No one has ever seen [Elohim]. But his only Son, who is himself [Elohim], is near to the Father's heart; he has told us about him" (John 1: 18, New Living Translation, emphasis mine) .

QUOTEThese are the words of YAHSHUA of which there was no lie found in His mouth.UNQUOTE>>>>>I would whole-heartedly agree with you, but that is only when we are certain about that which He said in the first place! To say others have performed this feat would be incorrect. There are different "heavens", but only one way to view a spiritually resurrected human.You have the context of Yahshua's words above, so there is really no further need of elaborating further on this point.

QUOTELet's look at another few scriptures:

KJV 1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.UNQUOTE>>>>>Again, I fully agree with you, for Yahshua is the type of the 144,000, in that He is the One Who went on ahead and cleared the trail for all of us. Now, firstly I need to remind you that Adam and Eve, saving for the holy history of Yahshua Messiah, would have been annihilated on the very spot of their first sin [and the entire human race within their loins], saving for the immediate use of that Plan that was made from the foundation of the world before its coming to fruition. In other words, Adam to Moses ["Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come" (Romans 5: 14)] were all allowed use of their second chance to choose Yahshua as their Savior and Lord before it was actually culminated through Yahshua's perfect life and Second Death at Calvary. We could say that because Yahshua's sacrifice was known to be perfect by Yahweh even before it was culminated, all such as Enoch, Moses, Elijah, saw Heaven based on that which was to come, rather than that which had happened.

QUOTEKJV 1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his comingUNQUOTE This has been cleared up above. If still unsure re-read Romans 5: 14, which, speaking of all those who had died first death [this didn't include Enoch, for he was translated; he didn't die that death], states that "Moses" was the first one to actually come forth from the grave. You must remember that the word "first fruits" [even as the Hebrew word "firstborn" {STRONG'S bek owr', meaning firstborn, but also "chief" (not necessarily in chronology but in strength, grace, and whatever) among many}], [STRONG'S 536, ap ar che' primarily denotes an offering of firstfruits [akin to, a parch o ma' i, to make a beginning in sacrifices], may also mean earliest, not necessarily in order of "time" but of importance.

QUOTEKJV 1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: 7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:UNQUOTE >>>>>Please don't forget the Sacred Names brmarty! But again, I am stumped about these texts for they say nothing definitive about the matter at hand, which is that although you thought Yahshua said that which He didn't [when we look at it in context], and the word "firstborn" does not necessarily mean first in chronology, but may also mean first in importance, I can't see why 1Peter is quoted above, but if I am blind to it, please tell me exactly what you mean by inclosing it here

QUOTEWe can see very clearly that no Firstfruit has ever been resurrected before YAHSHUA. In fact, Yahshua being the First of the Firstfruits absolutely leaves no room for argument that other Firstfruits have experienced spiritual resurrection before YAHSHUA.UNQUOTE>>>>>brmarty, when we put that which Yahshua spoke in context, He was telling Nicodemus that none but He had come down from the Third Heaven for the purpose of instructing the people in the ways of Yahweh, and that's correct! Your belief in the error that none have seen Heaven from earth at all, or before Yahshua did, doesn't hold water. Look into these texts and you'll see clearly the truth of the matter:

"And Enoch walked with Elohim: and he was not; for Elohim took him" (Genesis 5: 24). Took him where? Surely you must ask yourself that question, most especially in light of the words of Hebrews 11: "By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because Elohim had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased Elohim" (verse 5). Now this adds to the truth and unless you are intentionally trying to look away from truth [2Thessalonians 2: 11, 12], what does the word translated mean? Coem back to the truth brmarty, and things will gel better, and you'll have a better understanding of the truth. Don't forget to ask yourself what Romans 5: 14 is speaking of.

In regards to "faith and Israel," read Hebrews Chapter 4 a few times, and you will see that the gospel was preached unto Israel through the Ceremonial System, and it was always a matter of faith. Israel has been a nation uncircumcised in mind and heart, and even the prophets and the apostles, as well as Yahshua Himself couldn't teach them anything. Their bane is loving the "old days," when Israel was ruled by Saul, David and Solomon, and their wanting to rule this world, getting rid of the Roman yoke and being the greatest Country in this old world of ours. This is what they still seek, for the Zionism of today at the top doesn't have a spiritual bone in it!

------------------
2Corinthians 4: 6
Yahweh's promises
are enablings!

posted 09-29-2002 05:09 PM         

Well brmarty, I must admit, you (or shall we say YAHWEH's Spirit)have lead me to searching HIS Word. See I did not find during my walk down Covenant Lane, that the Firstfruits were related to the convenant, in the way you have shown. So, I thought, wait! Did I miss something Father? Did I walk past a door?

This last week I have been questioning myself and what I've learned. I've decided to address the areas one at a time that I catch myself going hhhhmmmmm.

I still believe that the New, or as David Ben Yacob, showed, the Covenant that is to rebuild, repair,& renew is truely a Covenant that is Focused around our Messiah Yahushua, as the Living Word of YAHWEH.

I won't fill these pages with what I shared on my post "Under the New or Under The Old Covenant." But, I can not escape YAHWEH's Word:
"I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the people and a light for the Gentiles to open eyes that are blind, to free captivies from prison and to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness." Isaiah 42:6-7

Yahushua is this "New" Covenant. And this "New" Covenant HAS to be currently in effect! For was there not a CONFIRMATION of the Covenant? To confrim something is to "to prove the truth, validity, or authenticity of. To establish."

Just as there was a confirmation of the old covenant...
"Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read to the people...Moses than took the blood sprinkled it on the people and said, 'This is the blood of the covenant, that YAHWEH has made with you in accordance with all these words." Exodus 24:7-8

And the New Covenant was solmninzed by the blood of the Messiah.
"Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying 'Drink from it, all of you. This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins." Matthew 26:28

I agree brmarty, that the covenant has been there since the beginnig, because I truely believe that this covenant we are talking about, the Law/Decrees/Commands that are written on our hearts, truely is the Living Word (Yahushua).

"The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us." John 1:14

*star

posted 09-29-2002 07:04 PM         

I will admit I did read all of Jeremiah 31:1-40, and yet I did not mention verse 34, in my Post-"Under the New or Under the Old Covenant. (And thus the reason, I'm now sure brmarty for me coming across your post. For doesn't YAHWEH have a way of guiding us to truely Know HIM?)

"No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying,'Know YAHWEH', because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares YAHWEH." Jeremiah 31:34

I know that we can not seperate scripture to suit our own understanding and I'm learning that when I refuse to open a door that YAHWEH has placed before me, just because I don't fully understand HE will continue to direct my path back to that door until I open it. (If that be HIS Will).

So with that said brmarty, I also walked around last week saying hhhhhmmmm...to verse 34. You mentioned in your post, brmarty,:
"I believe the difference in our current "covenant" relationship and the "New" covenant relationship YHWH is talking about is the second part of the "New" convenant defintion:

And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

I'm asking myself, can we have only part of a Covenant? I do believe that YAHWEH's Word is written on my heart, as I shared in my last post. So, if that is the case shouldn't this part of the Covenant also apply?

I can relate this verse to myself...It wasnt until I came to Eliyah's site, that I began to question, what I had learned in churches. You know the tradition, Yahushua's name, holidays, etc. I stopped reading "man's" writings as a tool to KNOWING my Father. I began to read, study, & pray about HIS Word. Questioning what everyone here was sharing. That is when the true change started within my heart. You have to understand the truths I have been learning are not from man, this last Year and a half, it has been Yah revealing Himself, HIS Son, HIS Spirit...stepping out of the milk meal and feeding as a mature child of Yahushua...GLORIOUS!

See I have shared before with cfoegen, that I believe we are ALL under the New Covenant, but, I think we sometimes dont know it and dont know what that truely means.

DeAnna you touched on it:
"I don't think ANY of us "Teach" each other to "know" Yah. For one cannot "teach" someone to "Know" Yah. Only Yah can reveal himself. We may share what we feel Yah has "answered" us… but to "know him"? no. The only way one can get to "Know Yah" is to talk to him themself..."

And than today cfoegen, I re-read your post from 9/25...
"1.Do we teach each other today brother to brother?
We believe this text isn't talking about your family's
"brother", but rather the two brothers mentioned in the text - Judah and E'phraim (aka the House of Judah and the House of Israel). Thus Judah will not teach E'phraim and E'phraim will not teach Judah..."

In my heart I believe you may have grasped for me what verse 34 means. For part of Judah and Isreal not needing to teach each other occurs because they become ONE!

"...say to them, 'This is what the sovereign YHWH says': I am going to take the stick of Joseph, which is in Ephraim's hand and of the Isrealite tribes associated with him and join it to Judah's stick, making them a single stick of wood, and they will become one in my hand."

"Hold before their eye the sticks you have written on and say to them, This is what the Sovereign YHWH says: I will take the Israelities out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their land."

"I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Isreal. There will be one king over all of them and they will never agin be two nations or divided into two kingdoms."
Ezekiel 36:19-22

Now...here is something I have been pondering on last week (it has been a long week of pondering..lol) Could it be true that YAHWEH has fullfiled Ezekiel 37:1-14?
Has he not 'renewed, rebuilt, & repaired' the Dry Bones in the Valley..."I will make breath enter you, and you will come to life."
Has he not brought Isreal out of their sin-exile/captivity...
"I am going to open your graves an bring you up from them;"
And hasn't our Father called Isreal home-to their land.."I will bring you back to the land of Isreal."

And cefoegen, part of my searching last week lead me to an answer on something you had mentioned in the post-'Under the New or Under the Old Covenant'. And that is Since Judah and Isreal have been joined, as one, as it says in Ezekiel 37:15-28, the Covenant when speaking of Isreal is for both Judah and Isreal, it can no longer be seprated...to only think of Isreal as JUST the house of Isreal. When the 'New Covenant is speaking to the house of Isreal, it NOW includes both (all tribes) houses.

How else can there be a Remnant if Judah and Isreal are not ONE!
Ah, the Remnant! There in lays another hhhhmmmm...from last week.