posted 09-29-2002 08:07 PM         

Shalom, brothers and sisters...

My final hhhhmmmm, brmarty, involves the Firstfruits you mentioned, connecting them to the Covenant where I didn't.
You mentioned: "...the difference between the "New" convenant and the current covenant relationship we as Firstfruits enjoy. I believe that this "New" covenant relationship is a future relationship between YHWH and the "physical" nation of Israel after YHWH resurects the "physical" nation of Israel to serve Him forever."

Firstfruits...I have never given that thought until your post, dear brmarty. I thank you for posting this, for it has opened new truths about our Father.

My scriputres include a study guide stating that the firstfruits were:'The first sheaf of the harvest given to YAHWEH as a token that all the harvest belonged to YAHWEH and would be dedicated to him..' and 'The offerings of fristfruits was an ackowledgement that the harvest was from YAHWEH and belonged wholly to HIM.' (Sounds nice)

Exodus, Leviticus, & Numbers helped by explaining firstfruits thru the festivals. (Which caused my mind to reel. Could you just imagine the post..connecting Yahushua-the True Firstfruit, to the Festivals.)--back to the topic at hand!

JayYah, your post encouraged me that I had found the right truth, and that is that the firstfruits, does involve the 144,000. Remember now I believe, from my last post here, that Judah and Isreal are NOW one, having been returned to the Land of Isreal, by YAHWEH. Goodness, how close are we for the start of the Remnant to being gathered? ...Another hhhhmmmm.

brmarty, your belief that the New Covenant relationship being a future relationship, between YHWH and the 'physical' nation of Isreal, where Isreal is reserrected to serve HIM forever...that very well could be truth if we see the 'physical' nation of Isreal as it would relate to the Covenant, as being the Remnant.

I just can't let go of the thought, why a Remnant? That tells me that for all of YAHWEH's work, not (ALL) of Isreal will be saved, not (ALL) of Isreal will accept this New Covenant. Only the Remnant will see Yahushua as their Messiah, the Living Torah, the New Covenant. That Remnant that will be "offered" as a token to YAHWEH that all of the Harvest belongs to HIM.

Token: 'A sign, a sign of authority, identity, genuineness...'

We as believers of Yahushua, accepting and living with the New Covenant, are that Harvest! It is no longer an outward change it is now a change from within (written on our hearts).
Ok, JimJay/JayYah, I better move on here, or some may say i'm stepping into dogma...LOL!

There is one last area brmarty that made me whince, you said:
"Differences: 1. "New Covenant" relationship does not involve spiritual existence or sonship, daughtership with Father Yah YHWH."

Forgive me if, I mis-understood you, but, I know my Father, YAHWEH. If I don't come to him in Spirit I am lost in my own outward understanding. Trying to please him thru my Works. hhhmmm...sounds like the Old Covenant.

*star

posted 10-01-2002 11:01 AM         

I would like to touch on a subject that is not discussed often yet has pertinence in this discussion. I would like for all of you to consider the following:

When we die, what really happens?

My understanding is that the Spirit of all men return unto the Father in Heaven. Our bodies, obviously are consumed. Yet, those participating in the First or "Chief" or "Better" resurrection will have no need ever again of a physical body. We will all be changed into an everlasting, spiritual entity.

KJV Ecclesiastes 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

KJV Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto Yahweh who gave it.

The Father is in control of our Spirits when we die. I am not claiming to know anything past that in reference to how the Father can manipulate our spirits. But I saying that I believe the "changing into a YHWH or spiritual, everlasting being" will not occur until the appointed time in which YAHSHUA will be returning to earth.

KJV 1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of Yahweh, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

KJV 1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of Yahweh, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of Yahweh shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For Yahshua himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of Yah: and the dead in Yahshua shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet Yahshua in the air: and so shall we ever be with Yahweh. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

I believe that the dead, or those asleep, in Yahshua will not rise from the earth, for their spirits are already with YHWH. I believe they will rise up from under the "altar", or wherever YHWH is keeping them in heaven, in front of YHWH as a new YHWH, spirit being.

Then, those who are on earth will be gathered and changed. For they are still human beings on earth, not dead. The reason for this thread of thought is to support the idea that YAHSHUA was and is the First fully, spiritually, resurrected, eternal being and elder brother of the Firstfruits unto YHWH.

KJV Acts 3:20 And he shall send Yahshua, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which Yahweh hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. 22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall Yahweh you elohim raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. 24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

KJV Acts 3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which Yahweh made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

KJV Acts 3:26 Unto you first Yahweh, having raised up his Son Yahshua, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

I cannot reconcile in my heart that this covenant is the "New Covenant" talked about for the first time in Jer. 31 hundreds of years after Moses, etc. Moses was told of Yahshua, it is clear that all of YHWH's prophets were told to some degree about YAHSHUA. David knew Him well and some of the greatest Phropetic scriptures of our future resurrection and life are found in the Psalms. It was David who first prophesied of YAHSHUA being the Chief Cornerstone.

KJV Psalm 118:19 Open to me the gates of righteousness: I will go into them, and I will praise Yahweh: 20 This gate of the Yahweh, into which the righteous shall enter. 21 I will praise thee: for thou hast heard me, and art become my salvation. 22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner. 23 This is Yahweh's doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.

Again, I am just trying to support my understanding. I am ever learning and I know that somehow through these postings, I may gain more knowledge through the moving of the Holy Spirit of YHWH working in all of us. We so very much need eachother.

May YHWH bless and Keep all who seek His Face,

posted 10-02-2002 01:15 PM         

I would like to touch on a subject that is not discussed often yet has pertinence in this discussion. I would like for all of you to consider the following:

When we die, what really happens?

My understanding is that the Spirit of all men return unto the Father in Heaven. Our bodies, obviously are consumed. Yet, those participating in the First or "Chief" or "Better" resurrection will have no need ever again of a physical body. We will all be changed into an everlasting, spiritual entity.

KJV Ecclesiastes 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

KJV Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto Yahweh who gave it.

The Father is in control of our Spirits when we die. I am not claiming to know anything past that in reference to how the Father can manipulate our spirits. But I saying that I believe the "changing into a YHWH or spiritual, everlasting being" will not occur until the appointed time in which YAHSHUA will be returning to earth.

KJV 1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of Yahweh, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

KJV 1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of Yahweh: and the dead in Yahshua shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

I believe that the dead, or those asleep, in Yahshua will not rise from the earth, for their spirits are already with YHWH. I believe they will rise up from under the "altar" or wherever YHWH is keeping them in front of YHWH as a new YHWH, spirit being.

Then, those who are on earth will be gathered and changed. For they are still human beings on earth, not dead. The reason for this thread of thought is to support the idea that YAHSHUA was and is the First fully, spiritually, resurrected, eternal being and elder brother of the Firstfruits unto YHWH.

KJV Acts 3:20 And he shall send Yahshua, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which Yahweh hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. 22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your Yahweh raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. 24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

KJV Acts 3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

KJV Acts 3:26 Unto you first Yahweh, having raised up his Son Yahshua, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

I cannot reconcile in my heart that this covenant is the "New Covenant" talked about for the first time in Jer. 31 hundreds of years after Moses, etc. Moses was told of Yahshua, it is clear that all of YHWH's prophets were told to some degree about YAHSHUA. David knew Him well and some of the greatest Phropetic scriptures of our future resurrection and life are found in the Psalms. It was David who first prophesied of YAHSHUA being the Chief Cornerstone.

KJV Psalm 118:19 Open to me the gates of righteousness: I will go into them, and I will praise the LORD: 20 This gate of the LORD, into which the righteous shall enter. 21 I will praise thee: for thou hast heard me, and art become my salvation. 22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner. 23 This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.

Again, I am just trying to support my understanding. I am ever learning and I know that somehow through these postings, I may gain more knowledge through the moving of the Holy Spirit of YHWH working in all of us. We so very much need eachother.

May YHWH bless and Keep all who seek His Face,

posted 10-02-2002 04:07 PM         

Thank you for your patience, and that characteristic love and understanding that shows me you are truly a student, recognizing that all of us are at our best when we are able to come together and discuss His Scriptures even as we are doing here. When we are able to share, without condemning another [and I find that's difficult to do especially when someone is calling me "something," or calling another "something," when obviously all that's happening is safe, peaceful sharing. There are some things that must be cut out of the "body" immediately, for certain sharing should be seen in the same light as a flu that's come among us that takes its victims and is able to make us all in some fashion, sick spiritually. This is my idea of a truly blessed and spiritually healthy round of sharing, and I thank you, and All, for it.

Brmarty, you said: QUOTE "I cannot reconcile in my heart that this covenant is the "New Covenant" talked about for the first time in Jer. 31 hundreds of years after Moses, etc. Moses was told of Yahshua, it is clear that all of YHWH's prophets were told to some degree about YAHSHUA. David knew Him well and some of the greatest Phropetic scriptures of our future resurrection and life are found in the Psalms. It was David who first prophesied of YAHSHUA being the Chief Cornerstone."UNQUOTE
One of many things that hasn't been made very clear among us, is that which Yahweh wanted to happen: Yahweh wanted that when Yahshua appeared on earth, all of the Jews would be awaiting Him. All would have met the kings from the East, and told them where the Messiah was laying, for all would have, like the kings, known when He would arrive. This would be considered Yahweh's PERMISSIVE Will for Jewry at the time of the coming of Messiah.

Had His ORIGINAL Will occurred, Adam and Eve wouldn't have ever sinned, but in that they did, His PERMISSIVE Will would have to come into play, for His Original Will of course had been contravened, due to His giving "free will" to all His sentient creatures. So, because of what happened "at the tree," that Plan that was made from before the foundation of the world came into effect. This allowed for His Permissive Will to come into view, allowing for the salvation of the planet [i.e., as much of the planet as would receive Yahshua Messiah, and allow Him to take up residence within them through His Spirit]. Now we are talking about His Permissive will at the time of the First Coming of Messiah Yahshua, so because of sin in the world, Yahweh wanted that Jewry receive Messiah, but that didn't happen! Rather, those who were wielding the sword of spiritual power in Jerusalem decided to take Him by the cover of night, ensuring He would be crucified before anyone of the locals could band together and do anything about it.

Sadly, although Yahweh allowed [PERMITTED] (seen in Daniel 9: 24), 70 weeks [70 times 7 = 490 days, each day = a literal year (Numbers 14: 34; Ezekiel 4: 6)] probation upon the Jews to bring in eternal righteousness, Jewry allowed that time of probation to pass, and at that time [at the stoning of Stephen in 34 A.D.], Jewry was no longer considered by race as His Chosen People. The apostle Paul brought His message of salvation for the world by Yahshua Messiah's agape to the Gentiles. During this time of the Gentiles, Jews could receive salvation just as Gentiles could have received salvation during the time of the Children, understand? but, just not any longer as His Chosen People, but as individuals.

So, Yahweh wanted that although the knowledge of evil was in the world, His Children would accept Yahshua as Messiah, and before that time of probation [490 literal years] came to a close, all would have been well. Yahshua would have been brought to the Throne of Judah, and although He still would have had to "die the death," His resurrection would have been glorious, and because His people would have been ready, Yahshua would have, after His resurrection and glorification, come back to this earth, and instituted His Kingdom, whether the Romans liked it or not! All of those prophecies that applied to literal Israel would have then eventually come about, wherein all of those who were not of the Children would have been alive on the earth, and soon people from other countries would be coming into Jerusalem, and learning of the Messiah and His Kingdom, for His Kingdom would have been mightier and filled with all good things. This was again Yahweh's Permissive Will for the Jews, and eventually, His Ultimate Will would have been met: There would have to be a putting away of all who would not live according to the New Covenant [they just wouldn't have it, for they loved sin more than righteousness], must be destroyed for their own good; then, all the world would know Yahweh, and all sin and sinners would have been forever ahhihilated.

Now, because none of this happened, Yahshua was killed according to the prophets, and literal Jewry went far, far away from her Messiah, not receiving Him, and that still to this day! There are literal Jewish folk among the Gentiles here, yet they are well able to tell you, that literal Jews do not want "this Jesus" to be spoken of in the houses at all! This is the stand of the Jews about Jesus Christ [our Yahshua Messiah]. Whatever His Name, they don't want to believe He is their Messiah, and if their receiving Him means any kind of suffering in the flesh [suffering that leads to nothing that is seen in this world as bountiful], they will not receive Him! They have shown that they are earthy, and not spiritual, although we pray that some will come forward at the time of the Latter Rain and Loud Cry, for we are coming upon these times very quickly! Hasatan has most of those of this world so engrossed with that which is everywhere about them, few will bow their heads and receive the "baptism of suffering" [1Peter 4: 1, 2] that overcoming sin in the life entails!

Since Yahweh's Permissive Will has had to be changed and changed, we see how much He loves us, and how much He longs for us. Today, that which will be the exhibition of perfect righteousness will be the sons and daughters of Yahweh, and they are spoken about in Revelation, and throughout the Scriptures as both the remnant, or in the very last days, the 144,000. The 144,000 in the days of the Time of Trouble spoken of in Daniel 12: 1, will bear the greatest trials, but they will become perfected through their trials, and they will be waved by our Hight Priest, Yahshua Messiah, as a sign to Father Yahweh that that Plan has worked COMPLETELY, and here are 144,000 perfect specimens of that Plan as a first fruits from the earth. These 144,000 will have been sealed with the seal of the Living Elohim, and will be those who, at the close of the whole earth's probation, will be "righteous and holy, be righteous and holy still" (Revelation 22: 11, these are the words of Yahshua about the 144,000 as probation closes forever).

What I am saying is: The Original will of Yahweh was that Adam & Eve, and maybe even a few of their progeny, would have lived upon the earth, with the Tree of the Knowledge of Good & Evil among them for a time, and then, when it was evident that none would eat of it, that Tree would have been taken away forever, and planet earth would have ALWAYS been an Edenic Paradise. But, there was sin! Now, after sin, Yahweh's Permissive will brings forth all that is possible short of coercing His creation, but still, nothing goes right for our Elohim Who does not use coercion, for His character is that of agape! Unconditional agape for all who would accept His Gift, forever!

That's the reason why I have noted here once or twice, that Yahweh is that One Who has been pained more than anyone within His Creation about the horror happening on this planet, for I believe that forever, Yahweh will remember those who at one time walked with Him, but they just as quickly walked away; and, they who just would not receive His Gift of His only begotten Son, that they would be with Yahweh forever! What a Wondrous Elohim we have! We have no idea of His hurt in all of this, and people still point the finger, and say, "If we have such a loving Elohim, why this? and why, that?" Well, brothers and sisters, the reason why this horror is still continuing, rests upon the shoulders of mankind, for Yahweh's Permissive will desires that 144,000 from among us will be found faultless, and without spot or stain. These compose that "wave sheaf" that in the time just before the end of probation, will be sealed with the seal of Elohim, found PERFECT, as a first fruits of those who will come forth in the harvest of the earth!

Yahshua as our High Priest, needs us to allow ourselves to be brought to a point in time of perfect righteousness through grace by our faith and by experiencing faithfully the baptism of suffering! All of those prophecies concerning literal Jewry, now fall upon our heads, for Yahshua is now calling forth His 144,000, so that He can wave us to Yahweh! Then and only then, Father Yahweh will tell Messiah, "The harvest is truly ready! Go forth to the earth, and bring forth her harvest from the hands of "That [one who] made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners [these are all those who have died "in Messiah," yet are still in the earth, awaiting the Voice of the Redeemer?" (Isaiah 14: 17). Yahweh needs a people, the sons and daughters of Elohim, to come forth NOW, without any excuses, and allow that His Spirit cleanses us from all variety of sin, for without that, Father is not ready to tell Yahshua to begin the harvest of the earth!

It is the true sons and daughters who walk faithfully in the New Covenant, for all else have come under the curse of death, and are presently unclean, sleeping in the dust of the earth, awaiting the sign of the first fruits, for Father to end this great catastrophe that Yahweh has fixed with the blood of the Lamb. It is His Ultimate will that you and I will hear this call, and by grace through faith, rise to the occasion, and recognize that every temptation that comes our way must be left behind, for Yahshua has put the onus of responsibility on the shoulders of those who have eyes to see and ears to hear the truth, and to act in kind for the time has come! Will you and I not today begin to walk faithfully in His New Covenant, and touch not the unclean thing forevermore?

------------------
2Corinthians 4: 6
Yahweh's promises
are enablings!

posted 10-03-2002 12:33 PM         

For some strange reason, I can no longer retrieve postings to this thread after "Star"'s last posting which I believe was around 15 or 16. If I may ask a huge favor from whom ever has posted since my last posting, if you could start another thread with your reply so that I may see it. I apologize for this inconvenience. I have tried everything from "refreshing" this page to other things which have not worked. I hope that you can see this posting as I will not be able too.

If you would be so king as to do this for me, I would certainly appreciate it.

Thanks, and may YHWH bless and keep all who seek His Face,