Re: Continuation of the 'Shaul/Sheol?' Discussion

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: : : : I believe that we should list all that Shaul/Paul said in favor and against the Torah... to see the balance... maybe the translation or Greek text copy is at fault! We don't have the originals to compare... : ----------------------- : : And maybe Shaul's spin-doctors, like Lukas, down through the ages are at fault for making it look like Shaul kept and taught the Torah IN PLACES in his writings. : : YOU EXPLAIN TO ME how you are going to be a Torah-keeper when you are trying to show a bunch of Greeks how you have "freedom" in the Messiah to eat whatever is set before you, and this only because you are trying to be "all things to all men." : ========================== : I'm not dogmatic at all protecting or exposing Shaul/Paul. As you can see, I tell it like I see it... I'm not blind... I see a few things about Shaul that are disturbing... but I'm very slow to pick up a stone... : I used to be good at explaining away the statements made about "freedom in Yahushua" and to accomodate them to a Toragh keeping economy... I must admit that the statements as they appear written in what we have of Shaul's letters seem to favor a Torahless doctrine... but they can also be manipulations of the Christian translators and copists... I have plenty of evidence that anyone having any personal doctrine and access to a copy and distribution facility can propagate false doctrine... The early church fathers' record is like that... Ever since I discovered how Christianity was invented I read Shaul's letters with a lot of suspiction... : You keep bringing the fact that there was no endorsement of Shaul by any of the other apostles... Kefa/Peter admits that some of Shaul's writings are hard to understand and very easily twisted to accomodate anyone else's view... Kefa admits that Shaul's letters have been tampered with... : Let's look at each charge, one by one... of what Shaul wrote that contradicts the Torah... I'm sorry I was away when this discussion got started and I probably missed some good arguments. : Lou questions: : Let me start with a question that you brought up about Paul... Do you believe that Yahweh created clean and unclean animals whose meat we can or cannot eat? --- Let me get your Torah knowledge confirmed before proceding... ok? : ------------------------------ : BrClif's answer: : : ============================== : : I notice a pattern with you, my Brother(or whoever you are), I can always count on you to contradict the theme of whatever post I make, even if you were previously posting in agreement with what I had not yet posted. : : What's your damage? : ----------------------------- : I'm honestly traumatized by the evidence presented against Shaul whom I always admired... but if I have to part from him... I better know what I'm doing... How much of his doctrines I must shed... I need to be fully convinced... Let's be CATEGORIC and cast an absolute vote in favor or against Shaul's doctrines that are clearly against the Torah... ok? : =========================== : : : : The primary point of the Shaul debate is whether the man was what he represented himself to be OR NOT. All we have to tell us "Yes!" is Shaul's own words, the words of his disciples and secretaries (like Lukas), and 1 Peter, a work held in doubt by quite a number of leading Church authorities before Athanasius in 367 A.D. : : : ------------------------ : : : Can you accept Hebrews not knowing who wrote it? : : Hebrews was held in even more doubt; therefore, I also hold it in doubt. : : : You must take into consideration a few other "irregularities" in the NT according to your train of thought... : : : Kefa/Peter was assigned the position of feeding the sheep... then comes Yaakov/James who in the lifetime of Yahushua didn't want to know anything about him and takes over the presidency of the early kahal/assembly. Under what school was Yaakov trained? Why was Kefa receiving orders from all the others? Why was Kefa not taking the initiative on his own to go to Samaria? Why was Kefa displaced from the "Acts" account? Was Kefa's lack of leadership that created a vacuum filled in by Shaul/Paul and other Torah "educated" persons... : : Yeah, and all this information is dependent on the anti-Petrine Pauline account of Acts, originating from the pen of Loukas, Shaul's spin-doctor and myth-maker. Could the truth be that Kefa was enough of a spiritual "he-man" to call Shaul what he was, so Shaul had to put a spin on the story to make him look weak in certain areas, but strong enough in others that it would seem an honest representation? Where is the broad testimony from the 12 of Shaul's apostleship and recognition in the Jerusalem Congregation? : ----------------------------- : Kefa did an endorsement (apart from what you read in Acts) My imagination is known to run wild... but I don't think that we can form a case based on a fantasy. I don't wish to see it that way... Although, you may be right. I really don't care for anyone's endorsement as long as what he teaches can be verified in the Torah. : Question: Do you reject Hebrews only because of the possibility that it may have been written by Shaul? : ================================ : : : If someone is not writing the truth, it MUST be Lukas. I don't see how someone with Ya'akov's Torah-keeping reputation could thumbs-down the matter of literal circumcision in the flesh. (Genesis 17) I seriously doubt he said it. I think that Ya'akov thought Shaul was anti-Torahic, just as he may well imply in his mention of "one who judges Torah." I buy into Eisenman's suppositions that Ya'akov may have funneled the heretic Shaul into a certain-death situation at the temple, hoping it would finally kill the Herodian-sympathizer. : ---------------------- : That's quite an imagination... Get to the specific case you are talking about and we will analyze it. I think I know the scenario you are refereing to, but I want to make sure... : ==================== : : : At any rate... do you recognize Yaakov/James leadership role? : : Yes, for no one ever quotes "James" to refute Torah-keeping after coming to faith in the Anointed One. : : : I'm undergoing a lot of changes in my Scriptural knowledge and convictions lately... Except for the sacred name and the Torah, I'm not dogmatic about any of my points... I know that Shaul wrote a lot of good things about the Torah and the Goyim/Gentile relationship to the kingdom of Yahweh. : : "Good" because they sounded good or "good" because they were in harmony with previously taught truth? : -------------- : MOST DEFINITELY in harmony with the Torah.... : ========================= : : >Shaul pointed out that HEART circumcision was more important than phisical circumcision... : : But HEART circumcision doesn't mean you can disregard the Torah when it commands LITERAL FLESHLY circumcision. (Go ahead! Take a scalpel and cut off your heart's foreskin!) (Genesis 17) : ------------------------- : You remind me of Nicodemus... :) : ========================== : : >Any problem with this? : : Yes, in that you are trying to use it to dodge the literal command. Are you circumcised? If not, the Torah says that you will be cut off from His people... : : >So u can be circumcized all you want but the heart's circumcision is what counts... : : And you can claim circumcision of the heart all you want, but if you aren't circumcised in the flesh, you will be cut off from His people. At least, that is what the Torah says, and I did not write it. What does Shaul say? (as if I did not know) : ------------------------ : Most babies are circumsized at birth without any thought of the Torah, not even on the 8th day, neither the sacrifices prescribed in the Torah are offered by the mother... do you recognize this as a valid cirmuncision... After you are wrongly circumcized there isn't much foreskin left to do it again... it is not like immersion that you can repeat many times.... : ============================ : : >That is what Shaul was teaching... am I right? This point alone can clear Shaul's position about circumcision. : : No sir, for the reasons mentioned. If Shaul had EVER taught his disciples in general to be circumcised, his visit to the temple would have been a pleasant one. : ---------- : maybe the rest missed the point... These arguments are getting to a point in which we need Yahweh's direct intervension to clear up all the disparity of doctrines presented in this forum.... : ========================= : : : If I get it right... I can accept the word of a confirmed adulterer and murderer, like King David... : : How much of his writings were written prior to this act of adultery, which YOU can be so sanctimonius about when YHWH HAS NOT? : : > or and idolater like King Shlomo, : : How much of Shlomo's writings were given before this act? Did YHWH forgive him? : --------------------- : Practically all of Ecclesiastes was written after... : ======================= : : > but not the word of a little puffed up Pharisee like Shaul/Paul... I see. : : Shaul's sinister infiltration was intentional. It was a high-handed sin. He couldn't murder the congregation into extinction, so he had to infiltrate them. Think about it! If he was going to infiltrate, he was gonna have to have a damn good story, wasn't he? : --------------------------- : I was accused of running wild after my imagination... I can see that you are very imaginative, also... Let's get down to the available documentation... I see your points... but lets take one at the time... that's why I wanted to see a list of charges... not assumptions. : ===================== : : > I don't believe that to be called oneself an "apostle" is a crime unless he claims to be one of the 12. : : He claims to have been sent-out by YaHUshua by a word from heaven! Was this recognized by the 12? If not, why not? Was it a little secret between YaHUshua and Shaul? Why didn't YaHUshua give the 12 the word? : ------------------ : I'm concerned by the fact that if it werent's for Paul... right or wrong... I would'n know about the Scriptures... Judaism has been a close door religion for the rest of the world... Christianity was a hole in the wall that allowed me to see what's inside... Judaism sealed shut the name of Yahweh... so I must be very careful if I decide to cast a stone at Shaul/Paul. : =================== : : MY charge against him HAS NEVER been that he claimed to be one of the 12. That ridiculous post put up by the woman thinking that he was one of the 12 would be laughable if it wasn't so pathetic. My charge is that he IS NOT the 13th apostle that he claims to be. There is no Torahic testimony to back it up. 2 or 3 of his peers do not testify of it! : ------------------- : You are making up conditions here... I see your point, but this is very subjective. : ===================== : : >So please, make a complete list... we need to have this information all in one place... : : Yeah, in a place where it will be appreciated and treasured as the truth it is... : : : I still don't see a clear cut case against him to stand in court. : : Oh, and you think you have a close and shut case proving that he is not guilty of perjury for claiming to be authorized when he was not? : --------------------------- : I can think of prophets that we don't have a record of "endorsement" and they fulfilled their mission, anyway. I fear that Shaul's claims may be the truth and we are trying to knock him down. Surely, he was puffed up, but so what? : ===================== : : : Shalom... : : : Lou : : --Shalom Aleichem, : : Br. Clif

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