Re: Continuation of the 'Shaul/Sheol?' Discussion

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: Shalom Aleichem, Br. Lou, : Have you been taking your medication, my Brother, because today you are singing a different tune... : : : First, there is no question that Shlomo was an authorized King, as there is with Shaul being an authorized apostle recognized by those WE KNOW are authorized apostles. : : : Second, is there any evidence that what Shlomo taught was contrary to the Torah? Some say that Ecclesiastes has some hair-raising "wisdom" in it, but I think that work's intent is to contrast worldly wisdom with Torahic wisdom, so it is probably simple quoting out of context. : : ------------------------ : : Let me see if I understand you... you can have a Torah breaking personal testimony, : Did either of these men break the Torah all their lives? I do not think so. Some are born torah-breakers and torah-haters; others love the Torah and YHWH's ways, but fall into sin. Both Dahvid and Shlomo fell because of women. Now, are you going to fault them, seeing that you do not know what it is like to have that absolute power that corrupts absolutely? : Now, should we disqualify books that are "ensamples/examples"(albeit bad ones) given by these two? Or are you just talking about the things that they wrote personally. Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Canticles, etc.? : >but if you don't say anything against the Torah it is OK. : You act as if I was condoning the sins of these two... The question is...are these books authorized and are they inspired? : >Well what is that Shaul/Paul actually said against the Torah? : : Deu. 27:26 * "Cursed is the man WHO DOES NOT UPHOLD THE WORDS OF THIS LAW by carrying them out." Then all the people shall say, "so be it!" : : Rom. 3:31 * Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, WE UPHOLD THE LAW!/WE KEEP THE TORAH! : Well, crap, the 12 Mormon false apostles tell their un-Torahed flock that they are teaching them to keep "God's Law," but that doesn't mean they ARE! Just because an unrecognized apostle tells me that he is teaching me the Torah(when there is a curious absence of many Torah-related issues in his writings) I should believe him? : : I believe that we should list all that Shaul/Paul said in favor and against the Torah... to see the balance... maybe the translation or Greek text copy is at fault! We don't have the originals to compare... : And maybe Shaul's spin-doctors, like Lukas, down through the ages are at fault for making it look like Shaul kept and taught the Torah IN PLACES in his writings. : YOU EXPLAIN TO ME how you are going to be a Torah-keeper when you are trying to show a bunch of Greeks how you have "freedom" in the Messiah to eat whatever is set before you, and this only because you are trying to be "all things to all men." : I notice a pattern with you, my Brother(or whoever you are), I can always count on you to contradict the theme of whatever post I make, even if you were previously posting in agreement with what I had not yet posted. : What's your damage? : : ========================== : : : The primary point of the Shaul debate is whether the man was what he represented himself to be OR NOT. All we have to tell us "Yes!" is Shaul's own words, the words of his disciples and secretaries (like Lukas), and 1 Peter, a work held in doubt by quite a number of leading Church authorities before Athanasius in 367 A.D. : : ------------------------ : : Can you accept Hebrews not knowing who wrote it? : Hebrews was held in even more doubt; therefore, I also hold it in doubt. : : You must take into consideration a few other "irregularities" in the NT according to your train of thought... : : Kefa/Peter was assigned the position of feeding the sheep... then comes Yaakov/James who in the lifetime of Yahushua didn't want to know anything about him and takes over the presidency of the early kahal/assembly. Under what school was Yaakov trained? Why was Kefa receiving orders from all the others? Why was Kefa not taking the initiative on his own to go to Samaria? Why was Kefa displaced from the "Acts" account? Was Kefa's lack of leadership that created a vacuum filled in by Shaul/Paul and other Torah "educated" persons... : Yeah, and all this information is dependent on the anti-Petrine Pauline account of Acts, originating from the pen of Loukas, Shaul's spin-doctor and myth-maker. Could the truth be that Kefa was enough of a spiritual "he-man" to call Shaul what he was, so Shaul had to put a spin on the story to make him look weak in certain areas, but strong enough in others that it would seem an honest representation? Where is the broad testimony from the 12 of Shaul's apostleship and recognition in the Jerusalem Congregation? : : It is said that "IT SEEMED GOOD TO THE HOLY SPIRIT" (Acts 15:26)... Is the sacred Ruach subject to ethical debates on whether something is good or bad that it can only "figure out" that something SEEMED good... instead of assuming a positive leadership role? We must have a faulty translation here, or most likely someone is not writing the truth. : If someone is not writing the truth, it MUST be Lukas. I don't see how someone with Ya'akov's Torah-keeping reputation could thumbs-down the matter of literal circumcision in the flesh. (Genesis 17) I seriously doubt he said it. I think that Ya'akov thought Shaul was anti-Torahic, just as he may well imply in his mention of "one who judges Torah." I buy into Eisenman's suppositions that Ya'akov may have funneled the heretic Shaul into a certain-death situation at the temple, hoping it would finally kill the Herodian-sympathizer. : : At any rate... do you recognize Yaakov/James leadership role? : Yes, for no one ever quotes "James" to refute Torah-keeping after coming to faith in the Anointed One. : : I'm undergoing a lot of changes in my Scriptural knowledge and convictions lately... Except for the sacred name and the Torah, I'm not dogmatic about any of my points... I know that Shaul wrote a lot of good things about the Torah and the Goyim/Gentile relationship to the kingdom of Yahweh. : "Good" because they sounded good or "good" because they were in harmony with previously taught truth? : >Shaul pointed out that HEART circumcision was more important than phisical circumcision... : But HEART circumcision doesn't mean you can disregard the Torah when it commands LITERAL FLESHLY circumcision. (Go ahead! Take a scalpel and cut off your heart's foreskin!) (Genesis 17) : > Like in Yahushua's (Joshua) days... before getting into the promised land all of us will be circumcized anew in our hearts, where it counts... : Oh, you mean that someone would actually cut flesh off of their reproductive organ just to join an expensive religion? I think that it takes circumcision of the heart to obey the literal command of circumcision of the flesh of the reproductive organ! The only circumstance that might contradict this is if someone was immersed in a circumcising culture, in which case they might do it begrudgingly, but while some are claiming circumcision of the heart, at the same time denying the literal command, there are others who are showing that circumcision of the heart is a willingness to keep all of the Torah's commands, even the ones the whiney "Theos-fearers" did not want to keep, like literal circumcision of the flesh. Just as having His Torah written on our hearts means a wanting to do the Torah, so also is circumcision of the heart a desire to do all of the Torah, including Genesis 17. : >Any problem with this? : Yes, in that you are trying to use it to dodge the literal command. Are you circumcised? If not, the Torah says that you will be cut off from His people... : >So u can be circumcized all you want but the heart's circumcision is what counts... : And you can claim circumcision of the heart all you want, but if you aren't circumcised in the flesh, you will be cut off from His people. At least, that is what the Torah says, and I did not write it. What does Shaul say? (as if I did not know) : >and only Yahweh can see that. : True, and YHWH can see it when you haven't been sufficiently circumcised in the heart to obey His Torahic command to get literally circumcised in the flesh, and all of His people will see it when you are cut off from His people as a result. : >That is what Shaul was teaching... am I right? This point alone can clear Shaul's position about circumcision. : No sir, for the reasons mentioned. If Shaul had EVER taught his disciples in general to be circumcised, his visit to the temple would have been a pleasant one. : >What else? : : ========================= : : : If this dead man was not who he said he was, then why should we pay attention to the teachings of a liar, be they in harmony with the Torah OR NOT? (Do we need him? That would be like needing a vitamin supplement (Paul) for your Nutritious Dinner (YaHUshua).) : : ------------------------ : : If I get it right... I can accept the word of a confirmed adulterer and murderer, like King David... : How much of his writings were written prior to this act of adultery, which YOU can be so sanctimonius about when YHWH HAS NOT? : > or and idolater like King Shlomo, : How much of Shlomo's writings were given before this act? Did YHWH forgive him? : > but not the word of a little puffed up Pharisee like Shaul/Paul... I see. : Shaul's sinister infiltration was intentional. It was a high-handed sin. He couldn't murder the congregation into extinction, so he had to infiltrate them. Think about it! If he was going to infiltrate, he was gonna have to have a damn good story, wasn't he? : : ======================= : : : And that is the secondary point of this debate, did Shaul teach things contrary to the Torah? : : : To be fair, the standards of measurement must be applied correspondingly in all cases; otherwise, the comparison is invalid. : : : To answer your question, though, the Mashiach DID say that it was the Torah and the Prophets that is the "narrow gate," NOT the Torah, the Writings, and the Prophets... But I am not implying that the Son did not quote from the Writings, but that maybe they are not part of the narrow gate, just a spiritual dessert? : : : : --------------------- : : I can help you here with Isa. 8:20 - To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn. : Your point? I seem to have missed it. : : I can see a lot good things about Shaul/Paul... I can still quote him to the Christians as a bone fide Torah keeper. : Only because he himself confesses it. Does anyone, other than one of his disciples, testify that he was a constant Torah-keeper and not an on-again/off-again Torah-keeper, if that? Only present day Messianics...whose agenda depends on indoctrinating people into believing that Shaul was a Torah-keeper. : > I don't believe that to be called oneself an "apostle" is a crime unless he claims to be one of the 12. : He claims to have been sent-out by YaHUshua by a word from heaven! Was this recognized by the 12? If not, why not? Was it a little secret between YaHUshua and Shaul? Why didn't YaHUshua give the 12 the word? : > I'm not sure if he does. : MY charge against him HAS NEVER been that he claimed to be one of the 12. That ridiculous post put up by the woman thinking that he was one of the 12 would be laughable if it wasn't so pathetic. My charge is that he IS NOT the 13th apostle that he claims to be. There is no Torahic testimony to back it up. 2 or 3 of his peers do not testify of it! : >So please, make a complete list... we need to have this information all in one place... : Yeah, in a place where it will be appreciated and treasured as the truth it is... : : I still don't see a clear cut case against him to stand in court. : Oh, and you think you have a close and shut case proving that he is not guilty of perjury for claiming to be authorized when he was not? : > Practically everything I read so far can be explained in the light of the Torah... and the rest is probably translator or copist error... : Yeah, isn't it great to be able to claim translator or copyist error in your favor? Too bad "James" can't claim that so that he can have his sullied reputation cleared up, what with everyone thinking he was such a devout Torah-keeper. : > Shaul's personal conduct of being puffed up shouldn't be taken into consideration. I don't think so. : I don't see where you get the idea that I base my position on his pride. : : Shalom... : : Lou : --Shalom Aleichem, : Br. Clif : ]

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