Other than the Yemmenite Jews, are there any living Hebrew dialects which pronounce the Vav (v) like a Waw (w)? Everyone of Jewish extraction I've talked to claim that in their native lands, the Vav is used. This includes the Shepardim.

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Eloah immakhem,

That was an interesting and relevant post that you posted- I just hope that this doesnt turn into another debate about words and sounds.....'cause it must look ridiculous to a sane person who looks in on this forum, and sees that the number one thing being discussed is the sound of words.

Similar to the issue of Ayin, the Samaritans pronounce it with a silent and vocal, kind of like Arabic which has Ayin and Gayin. In some Sephardic Siddurim (Prayer books) that have translations the Shema is written in English as Shemang to show the Gayin sound.

The main arguement for Yemenite pronounciation is based on comparisons with other ancient languages, and also the fact that Yemenites Jew's ancestors left Israel 40 years before the 1st Temple was destroyed. Most of everyone else was affected by the dispersion where Yemenite Jews had fewer influences on their practice. A comparison with Ethiopian Jewish dialect of Ge'ez would also be a good help. Using Ethiopian Ge'ez documents helped peice several areas of Torah together, which is why some Lexicons mention Ethiopic word structures.

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Eloah immakhem,

Shimson bar-Tzadoq

* Morag, Shlomo--Pronunciation of Hebrew, Encyclopedia Judaica, Keter Jerusalem 1971, Vol 13. Col 1122-24

Yemenite Jewry had been the recipient of a variety of Babylonian traditions. This was a result of their close relationship. Historical documentation of the cultural bonds were found in Genizot (archives--usually buried). These writings described the trade and cultural relations between the two countries.

Yemenite Jewry has maintained many of the phonetic sounds which other Jewish Ethnic groups no longer have. The system of Professor Shlomo Morag shows clearly and succinctly the pheonetics in the Yemenite Pronuciation.

Also, look at the following for other discussions on pronuciation.
http://www.chayas.com/dikduk1.txt

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Eloah immakhem,

The Hebrew word for a peg is "waw".

Name: Waw
Sound: w, ow, uw (This letter is both a consonant and a vowel)
http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/7_ancient_2.html

http://members.tripod.com/~ebionite/names1.htm

The remaining three consonants, He, Waw, and Yodh are sometimes pronounced and sometimes
silent, being used in conjunction with vowels. When they are pronounced, their pronunciation is
like that of their English equivalents. He, h; Waw, w; and Yodh, y. In some systems of
transliteration the Waw is called Vav and pronounced "v" because of past German influence on
Hebrew studies. If, however, these letters are used as vowels, the long vowel resulting is always
(and only then) marked with a circumflex accent ^. Examples will be given below.

All double consonants (those marked in Hebrew by a doubling dot in the middle of the letter) are
simply written twice in the transliteration.
http://www.derech.org/waw.html

Waw is the sixth letter of the Hebrew alphabet (aleph-beyt).

The numerical value of Waw is 6.

The character associated with Waw is the Hook.

The sound of Waw is 'w' or 'v' as in 'Wine' or 'Vine'.
Modern Hebrew uses this letter as a 'v' sound while
Biblical Hebrew uses this letter as a 'w' sound.

Hebrew does not have vowels but a system has been
developed for the beginning reader to indicate the
vowel sound using vowel points.

The Waw (Vav) is the only Hebrew letter used at times
to indicate the vowel sound.

The Waw with a dot (dagesh) above it turns the letter
into a vowel called holem. It has the sound of a long 'o'
as in 'Lord'.

The Waw with a dot (dagesh) inside the hook turns the
letter into a vowel called shureq. It has the sound of
'oo' as in Truth.

Yahweh or Yahveh (vah)?

So what is the proper pronunciation of the Hebrew w (waw) in Yahweh’s
Name? A few think the waw should have the pronunciation of the v; that the letter
should be called “vav,” which would make the sacred Name “Yahveh” or Yahvah.”
They point to Bibles lacking modern scholarship that show the Name in one of these
forms.

It is true that a few Bibles indeed spell the sacred Name in English with a v.
Centuries ago this might have been proper, as the v, like a few other English letters, had
variant pronunciations and had not become as fixed as today. The early Bible was
published using either the letter u or the v to represent the Hebrew letter w (waw). The
letter u and v were often used interchangeably because of their equivalency. In the
original 1611 version of the Bible the u and v are not differentiated.

It was not until the dictionary was published that a decided difference was made
between the v and u. Later the w was added (“double u”). The u, v, and w occur
together in our alphabet, making the 21st, 22nd, 23rd letters of the English alphabet,
respectively. This fact is more than coincidence. It shows the relationship a common
derivation (just as the J follows the I, to which it is related).

‘Waw; Considered a Vowel

Biblical Hebrew is a soft Hebrew known also as Sephardic or Temple
Hebrew. Biblical Hebrew pronounces the w (the W in YHWH) as waw, or as u or w.
Bagster’s Helps to Bible Study reads on page 238, “The a, h, w, and y are called
vowel letters, as having been originally used to represent vowels, and they still
frequently serve as vowels in combination with the points…Of these a represented the
sound a; w o and u; y e and i; and h a, e and o final, but not i and u.”

In his book How the Hebrew Language Grew (p. 28), author Edward
Horowitz points out that there are three Hebrew letters which when spoken hastily,
rapidly, or excitedly are slurred or dropped because they were weak and apparently
unimportant. The interesting point is these letters are all used to make the sacred Name:
the yothe = y; he = h; and waw =w.

It is the waw (w) upon which we wish to concentrate as it is central to the
correct and proper pronunciation of the Name. Author Horowitz shows a number of
words in the English in which the equivalent (w) is often silent, such as “answer, sword,
law, two, write, etc.” He emphasizes that anciently; it was not a “vee” sound.

“…the sound of w a long time ago wasn’t “vav” at all but “w” and “w” is
weak…The Yemenite Jews of Arabia who retain an ancient, correct, and pure
pronunciation of Hebrew still pronounce the w as “w” –as does Arabic, the close sister
language of Hebrew,” pp. 29-30.

The Berlitz Hebrew Self-Teacher on page 73 reveals: “The Hebrew
alphabet forms its vowels by a system of ‘dots’ under the consonants, as we have seen
in the introduction. But in current Hebrew writing ‘dots’ are seldom used.
Therefore…we shall drop the ‘dots’ from this lesson on. There are, however, four
letters which can be used as vowels. h and a may have the vowel sound of ah or eh, w
that of oo or oh, and y of ee or eh.”

Mark and Rogers’ A Beginners Handbook To Biblical Hebrew on page 7
reads: “Originally Hebrew had no written vowels; the following consonants, however,
were often used to indicate long vowels: a, h, w, y.”

The yothe = y, he = h, and waw = w, which are used in Yahweh’s Name are
understood as being consonants which can be merged into vowels. Vowel sounds are
spoken with the mouth open.

A Simple Approach to Old Testament Hebrew by EKS Pub. Co. states on
page 9: “…The Hebrew letter waw w can function as a consonant or a vowel. When
the waw is a consonant it sounds like w, as in water, and usually has a vowel sign under
it…When the waw functions as a vowel it has the sound of o as in row. With a dot
above it, the waw sounds like o as in row: w. With a dot in its center, the waw sounds
like oo as in pool. w Note: This dot in the center of waw is not a daghesh. Usually the
waw is not both a vowel and a consonant at the same time. When a waw functions as
a vowel, sounded o or oo, it does not have the sound of w as in water. The y, like
waw, can be both vowel and consonant.”

Fagnani and Davidson’s Hebrew Primer and Grammar states on page 10:
“The four letters a, h, w, y may lose their consonantal force and be merged into
vowels.”

Sephardic vs. Ashkenazic Hebrew

In explaining the Hebrew language, Menahem Mansoor in Biblical Hebrew
points out on page 33: “There are, generally speaking, two main pronunciations: the
Ashkenazi, or German, originated by Central and Eastern European Jews and carried
to all countries to which those Jews have emigrated (Western Europe, America, etc.):
and the Sephardi, or Spanish, used by the Jews of Spanish or Portuguese stock in
Europe and America and also by Jews from Oriental countries. In all universities and
throughout Israel, the Sephardi pronunciation has been adopted, since it is generally
believed that this is the pronunciation nearest to the original…”

A response to a query about the proper pronunciation of waw/ vav, EKS
Publishing responded, “In modern Hebrew it is pronounced VAV. Since our materials
are geared for a predominantly Jewish audience, we give this pronunciation in our wall
charts and most other publications. However, in Biblical times the letter was
pronounced WAW. Because our book, A Simple Approach to O.T. Hebrew, is
written for a Christian audience, we have given this Biblical Hebrew pronunciation for
WAW and for a few other letters.”

Other sources relate that since the turn of the century the Jews returning to
Palestine have been mostly from Eastern Europe. Thus, the heavy influence of
Ashkenazic or Germanic pronunciation of vav instead of the Sephardic or biblical waw
has become dominant in present-day Judaism, and is referred to as
“Modern-Sephardic.” However, the Temple or Biblical Hebrew demands waw as the
ancient and more correct pronunciation.

A number of Hebrew grammars for English students state that the Hebrew w
(waw) is one of the weak letters, which often takes on the force of a vowel, along with
the other letters of Yahweh’s Name. Here Yahweh has taken the lesser letters of the
Hebrew alphabet and made them into the strongest in the universe by employing them in
His Name!

V Once Equivalent to U and W

History reveals that the pronunciation was Yahweh. Clement of Alexandria
transliterated the name into Greek in the form Iaoue. Theodoret used Iabe. According
to the New Bible Dictionary (p. 478), the Greek b represented the v. The early
writers and translators obviously used the letter v for the Tetragrammaton in English
because it was then used as an equivalent for the Hebrew waw (w) and was considered
a vowel.

The prestigious Oxford English Dictionary notes the following on “V”: “The
22nd letter of the modern English and the 20th of the ancient Roman alphabet, was in
the latter an adoption of the early Greek vowel-symbol V, now also represented by U
and Y (q.v.), but in Latin was employed also with the value of the Greek digamma
(viz.w), to which it corresponds etymologically.” Webster’s New World Dictionary
concurs that the digamma had the sound of the English w. (“V”, p. 1565)

By the time the Hebrew Tetragrammaton was transliterated into English as
YHVH, the “v” had either the sound of “v” as in victory, or, more often, sounded as a
“u.” There was no “w” or “u” in early English. Both these letters were latecomers to
the alphabet, developing from the v, even though the sound was more like the “oo” in
moon.

In Latin, Julius is spelled “Jvlivs,” the “v” pronounced like a “u.” In
Anglo-Saxon the Germanic tongues, the Latin v was understood to mean uu or u, and
so we get the w, made up of double v’s (double u’s”). Even today the German v is
pronounced like a w: Volkswagen = ”Wolkvagen.”

The “u” and “v” were also used interchangeably in English. Take the word
“upon.” It was often spelled “vpon.” There was no hard-and fast-rule to guide the
proper spelling in English when to use a “v” or “u.” It was only when the growing
vocabulary made necessary the need for a dictionary that a determination was made on
a word’s precise spelling and pronunciation. Thus a word would consistently be found
in the same place in the alphabetized dictionaries such as “unto” under “u” and “vigil”
under “v.”

At the time the venerated King James Bible was written, the “v” and “u” were
being used interchangeably. The “w” came upon the scene a bit later. Almost any
encyclopedia or dictionary will show that there was little differentiation made in early
writings.

Four Sacred Vowels

Josephus tell us that the High Priest wore a miter or hat as a part of his habit,
and the miter was inscribed with FOUR VOWELS (YHWH) (Wars, 5:5:7 {235}).
(The “v” is the erroneous “Yahveh” or “Yahvah” is consonantal and not a vowel
sound.)

About the ninth century B.C.E., Hebrew writing began to use certain letters for
vowel sounds. The fact that the four letters of the Tetragrammaton are four vowels
further substantiates the correct pronunciation, Yahweh!

Many people have the false notion that the Hebrew alphabet consists only of
consonants. They fail to realize that the vowels were understood and inserted when
read. Remember, the entire Old Testament is written in Hebrew and without vowels
between consonants. Yet it is read from Genesis 1:1 to Malachi 4:6 and understood
without vowels!

Even today people familiar with the Hebrew language can easily read it in the
consonantal text alone. A modern Hebrew newspaper is printed without vowel points,
and those readers for whom it is intended can read it without difficulty.

Every language uses vowels in order to be spoken, as vowels are the sounds
uttered with the mouth open.

The Old Testament of the Bible was written in Hebrew and some few parts in
Aramaic. A growing number of scholars are realizing that the greater part of the New
Testament, or even all of it, was written in Hebrew. (Send for our free ministudy, Was
the New Testament Originally Greek?)

It is obvious, therefore, that our best source of the proper pronunciation of the
sacred Name is to be found in the Hebrew texts, as this is where the true Name
Yahweh, hwhy, was originally given.

In Summary

From the ancient Hebrew we have learned that the waw in the Tetragrammaton
is a vowel sound pronounced as a u.. Only later was the vee sound applied to the waw
(becoming vav) popularized by European Jews known as Ashkenazi.

The V itself developed from the Greek upsilon with a U or OO sound. In Latin
the V took on the sound of the Greek digamma (W) and denoted the w sound in Old
English. Only in Middle English do we start seeing the V taking on the consonant sound
of “vee.” Therefore, to pronounce the Creator’s Name properly, using the proper
vowel form, we must call on “Yahweh,” His majestic Name!

Sabian has said

About the ninth century B.C.E., Hebrew writing began to use certain letters for vowel sounds. The fact that the four letters of the Tetragrammaton are four vowels further substantiates the correct pronunciation, Yahweh!

The second sentence in this statement is incorrect. The yod, first hei, and the waw are all functioning as consonants. Only the final hei is a mater. It indicates the segol that along with the waw constitutes the second syllable of the word. The syllables in Hebrew words always begin with a consonant (The one exception is certain occurrences of a conjunctive waw.). Thus, the occurence of two consecutive vowels is not possible in Hebrew, although the presence of an alef (or ayin in Modern Israeli Hebrew) may give impression of two consecutive vowels. The presence of four consecutive vowels is simply out of the question by the rules of Hebrew grammar. Furthermore, it must be noted that a letter never functions as a mater when it is in the initial position, and hei only functions as a mater in final position. Therefore, only the waw and second hei are even candidates for being a mater.

A further problem exists because Mosheh is said to have written the Torah in the 14th century BCE, but matres did not come into use until the 9th century. So, if all four letters of the tetragrammaton are vowels, what did Mosheh write? The common pronunciation of the tetragrammaton is based on the idea that it is a 3ms imperfect from the root hei-waw-hei. It is also understood that most lamed-hei verbs were lamed-yod roots in the past. If this is so, then then the tetragrammaton might have been written as yod-hei-waw-yod at an earlier date.

As for as the waw itself, its useage as a mater for "o" is a strong indicator that it had the consonantal value of "w". For instance, the word yod-waw-mem was at an early time pronounced as "yawm". In time the "aw" diphthong was reduced to "o" yielding "yom". Likewise, many of the current pei-yod roots were originally pei-waw roots. In these roots the original waw reappears when a prefix is added, and the waw can combine with the vowel of the prefix and then reduce to yield an "o" sound. Thus, the root yod-shin-ayin yields forms like "moshiya`", "hoshiya`", "yoshiya`", etc. where the "o" sound is spelled with a waw that represents the original spelling of the root.

ThePhysicist

quote:

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Originally posted by ThePhysicist:
In Ps 68:4 (verse 5 in the Hebrew text) the hei is a consonant. You can tell in a pointed text because the hei has a mappiq (a dot in it).

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Physicist,

I read somewhere that the mappiq is used to indicate a masculine name with a feminine ending, such as Yah and Y'hudah. Any comments on this?

Sabian,

The reason that Yod, Hei, and Vav/Waw are called vowels (this also applies to the Aleph and Ayin) is because they are used to represent vowels in an unpointed text. This is why see variant spellings for David (D-V-D and D-V-Y-D), Jacob (Y-A-Q-O-V and Y-A-Q-V) and Joshua (Y-H-O-Sh-U-A and Y-H-O-Sh-A). In such cases, the Yod or Vav is being used as a vowel. This is not the case in the Tetragrammaton, where they are being used as vowels.

Shalom Alechim,

Shlomoh

I know of no such rule. The mappiq is used simply to indicate that the hei has consonantal force and is to be pronounced. A final consonantal hei is the exception rather than the rule. A final hei usually indicates a final vowel. The vowel is usually "a" (indicated by a qamatz in pointed text), but can also be an "e" and in archaic spellings that have been preserved it may indicate an "o", as in "Shlomoh".

The mappiq frequently serves to distinguish between a feminine noun and a masculine noun with a 3fs pronominal ending. For example, the word spelled samech-waw-samech-hei could either mean "mare" (feminine noun - hei is a mater) or "her horse" (masculine noun with a 3fs suffix - hei is a consonant indicated by a mappiq).

ThePhysicist

p.s. Y'hudah is not spelled with a mappiq.

Greetings once again.

The simpliest reason why the Name of Yahweh was changed, was the putting the tail of the letter in Greek "I" as yod equivalent, to become "j" and removing the bottom tail of the paleo Hebrew "Waw" "double V" from the original "U" written like "Y" stroke, so when with these two adding and removing tails of the letters, just made the whole Truth to "je""hovah" which we could read Yehovah, Ye-calamity. While vowel points disturbed the real pronunciation of the His Name, but at the weaknesses of human mind, made the retention of the first syllable to be written and preserved His real poetic Name"Yah".

I thank Yahweh He revealed His Name to His people who sincerely,truthfully wanted to know His Real Him. His spirit can fill the whole world, here a little, there a little, the sun never sets at His people. Do you belive this?

Shalom,

Forgive me if I am wrong... but who knows how 'The Name' was pronounced by The Almighty Himself when He spoke it to Moshe?

We always seem to get stuck with the much later 'Babylonian' script and even later corruptions.
Has any one here received 'the Name' by revelation? Or are the most of us just following the one who makes the best case, even if this would be incorrect?

Over the years we have seen many debates with regard to the correct pronunciation, and some have even dropped the use of the Divine Name YHWH altogether out of fear it might be the wrong one and thus they might be unknowingly worshipping a false elohim.

Remember the topic: "Are we duped?"

Also I have read that some 'preach' that unless we believe and use the Name 'Yahvah' we are deceived and have no salvation.

Others again have strongly suggested that we much better off NOT using any form of the Name, and thus are following 'talmudic' tradition.

And to top it all off, I also have read on this forum of the ones that say that YHWH has nothing to do with His Name, but is only a definition as to His 'self existing-ness' Yet I cannot help to think about the Scripture that does state: "I am YHWH, ...THAT IS MY NAME forever" [exodus 3:14 and 15]

Personally, I have NO trouble with people who would use any variation of the 'Tetragrammaton', but I run from the ones that insist I should follow their way or else...

With regard the V or W, I have this to say. As English is not my mother tongue, I had to learn some 'new' pronunciations of some letters. And England was just less than 50 miles away, yet such a difference in pronouncing the letter 'W' in most cases. They blew wind with the letter, while we would have it windstill :-), yet we are also Saxons as they are. What a difference several hundred years already made in creating an entire different language. Also if I read some of my old books which go back centuries, I see a GREAT difference in spelling some words and therefore different pronunciation to today.

Who can tell who has the perfect sound to the NAME? We are all only guessing, yet I even recently got an email of someone who asked me the reason why I use YAHWEH and not as she did Yahveh, and why I used Yahushua rather than Yeshua.
Does it really matter that much? Besides the fact that I believe them to be true?

I am sure this is not the last of the debates, and I do not mind it, for maybe, just maybe one day they will find some archaeological evidence from the time of Moshe, that will confirm some way it's true pronunciation. There are already many secular chards and inscriptions with the Paleo-Hebrew reference to YHWH in the Lachis tablets and the clay tablets of Assurbanipal from Nineveh, as well as the steela in three different ancient scripts now in the Louvre in Paris, not to mention many others, of which the linguists among the archaeologist agree that the NAME mentioned there is pronounced 'Yahweh' rather than any other. Or in German or Dutch 'Jahwe' which is the same phonetic sound, but no where with a 'V'strangly enough.

What is the real reason of so many to make it a real issue here, I often wonder?
What was the real reason why a Rabbi called Sh'aul [not to be confused with Paul the apostle] introduced the prohibition of the pronunciation of 'the Name' long before Messiah came to the scene?

Anyway, I will be using 'Yahweh'or YHWH if you don't mind, as thus far there has not been a convincing enough argument to the contra.

May YHWH bless our desire to have the right pronunciation and make it known to His people who will use His Name in unity and in an the most appropriate manner.

I often wonder what kind of language did YHWH speak to Adam, and if Adam was created speaking the pure language of YHWH?

Gen 2:16 And Yahweh Elokim commanded the man, saying, "Eat of every tree of the garden, 17 but do not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for in the day that you eat of it you shall certainly die".

Then Adam gave names to all the animals..

Gen 2:19 And out of the ground Yahweh Elokim formed every beast of the field, and every bird of the heavens; and brought them unto the man to see what he would "call" them: and whatsoever the man "called" every living creature, that was the name thereof.

Zeph: 3:8 Therefore wait ye upon me, saith YHWH, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy. 3:9 For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of YHWH, to serve him with one consent. HalleluYah!

Something to think about in a world today that is full of many languages, and yet it all started with one pure language.

Shalom in Yahweh,

quote:

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Originally posted by Yahwehwitnesses:

Zephanyah 3:9 Yes , at that time I will return to the peoples the pure word ( ata tongue , language ), so that all of them may all call upon the name of YAHWEH, to serve him with one accord.

Something to think about in a world today that is full of many languages, and yet it all started with one pure language.
Shalom in Yahweh,
Brother Yohanan[/B]

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.....................Indeed ! I'll wager it was Hebrew ! Think about it..when Mosheh was atop Horeb , and Yahweh inscribed the Tablets of stone for him......what language do you think he wrote them in ??

Shalom !~
Lavi Chagyah