posted 06-21-2000 08:59 AM         

I will restrict my reply to the Hebrew and leave the theology of the name to others.

First, earlier on this thread I posted:

Because of the difficulty of reading a purely consonantal text, the scribes BEFORE the time of Yeshua started to use certain consonants to indicate the presence of a long vowel. This was an additional use for these consonants, they still had their previous use as constants too. The scribes chose vav to represent the "o" or "u" sounds and the yod to represent long "a","e", and "i" sounds. These vavs and yods are called "the mothers of reading". ... There are occurrences in the Tanakh where the same word is spelled with and without the vav. ... One word I know for sure is spelled two ways is Y'hoshu'a (Joshua). It is spelled either yod-hei-vav-shin-ayin or yod-hei-vav-shin-vav-ayin. In the latter spelling, the second vav represents the "u" sound.

One can only tell whether the vav is to be pronounced as "v", "o", or "u" if either: one recognizes the word and knows how the word is pronounced or one uses the pointed text to pronounce the words.

As far as I know, anyone who can read Hebrew script and has access to a pointed Hebrew Tanakh will tell you that the written Hebrew "says", Y'hoshua or Yeshua, respectively. One thing to remember is that these are English transliterations of Hebrew script. There are various styles of transliteration and transliteration is frequently more an art than science. I suppose to be technically correct, the names need to be spelled out in Hebrew letters with Hebrew vowels.

B'rakhot b'shem Yeshua

ThePhysicist

posted 06-22-2000 01:04 AM         

Thank you for your reply and information in regards to the questions I have posted .
The Hebrew Language is an interesting Language Iam enjoying learning it, and how to use the correct grammar in regards to translating it to English.

In regarsa to The Name; Y`hoshua , is the Y` pronounced YE or YA or a YO ?
and iff you have any information as to how it sounds would you please post that as well with your reply, or if any anyone else has information regarding the Y` thank you.

Shalom
Blessings always,
WAYne

posted 06-22-2000 02:09 AM            

         Back in the early '80s, my Hebrew professor described the sound of "schwa" as the short vowel sound between the "T" and the "L" in battle or bottle. It is a very short sound similar to "uh." Some people may protest that we don't make a sound there but we do. It is impossible to pronounce consonants without vowels. So Y'hoshua is pronounced YuhHoshua Or, at least, that's the way I learned it. Here are some online Hebrew resources which may help you.

http://www.bible101.org/hebrew/fontdisplay.html
http://hebrew.about.com/homework/hebrew/library/blgrammarindex.htm

Zaqunra'ahyahuw
Nullus Frigidus Auxilium Gratia

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posted 06-22-2000 03:45 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by TheWAYne:I think this is a descusion that needs to be talked about because there are so many different pronounciations of The Messiah Yahshua/YHWshua

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puhleeze ! if anyone has a recording of ancient hebrew being spoken by native speakers produce it ! tomatoe tomahto, potatoe potahto.

Matt 23:24
24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. (KJV)
:smile:
i don't think you guys are swallowing camels but the gnats seem (my opine) to be getting a little thick

posted 06-22-2000 08:51 AM         

Well, both OldShepherd and Philip have brought up things I've been thinking about but hadn't posted.

It is only within the past 100 or so years that we have had the capability to make sound recordings. It is a shame that the ancient Hebrews couldn't make a CD-rom with audio synchronized with Hebrew script that highlighted as each word was spoken. That would solve a lot of the problems here. But remember even in the time of the judges there were regional Hebrew dialects, Jud 12:6.

If one tries to pronounce "Yahoshua" as one word with the accent on "shu" the sound is going to come out as "Y'hoshua". I believe that the Hebrew vowel pointings are meant to be instructions on how to pronounce the language, rather that lessons in the etymology of the words. Thus, the first two syllables of "Y'hoshua" are derived from "Yahu", but because of the natural way words are pronounced they come out as "Y'ho".

My wife is a teacher with a specialization in reading and I talked this over with her. In English we have the term schwa (or shwa) to describe the sound an UNACCENTED mid-vowel makes. This is indicated in pronouncing guides as an inverted "e". The sound is described as the sound of the first and last "a" in "America". My wife instructs her students to pronounce unaccented vowels as "uh". In Hebrew the sh'va is said to be pronounced as a very short "e", but I have been listening carefully to my Hebrew teacher and sometimes she pronounces the sh'va like "uh". The reality is the sounds of letters combined in words are (slightly) different from the isolated sounds of letters. We learn to speak by copying the sounds our teachers make.

B'rakhot b'shem Yeshua

ThePhysicist

posted 06-22-2000 08:34 PM         

TThank you for The reply in regards to the Sons Name.

Shalom
......, Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the Elohim of love and peace shall be with you.

Blessings Always
WAYne

......,seek ye first the kingdom of YHWH, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
http://www.messianic.com/friends.htm http://www.nazarene.net/directory2.html http://qumran.com/sacrednames/
John 17:3 !

posted 06-22-2000 10:07 PM            

Zaqunra'ahyahuw
Nullus Frigidus Auxilium Gratia

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posted 06-22-2000 10:42 PM            

my Hebrew name is Moshe and i attended Chaim Berlin Yeshiva in New York.... a world immersed in talmud and other "pharasiac levenings". in kindergarten i was able to read both Hebrew and English fluently....
so what ?!

i am not judging the tree.... that's my Father's job..... but we are told to examine the fruit of the tree..... as a teacher of THE WORD i'm sure you are aware that the Word Itself testifies to Itself and to the simplicity in which our Lord taught.

if you be the teacher it is your responsibility to proove your points not mine to disproove anything....... i didn't say that you were in error...... i merely suggested that the entire colleqy(?) sounded like academic jargon and the "traditions of men" that would pollute The Word.... no offense intended.

posted 06-23-2000 01:28 AM            

"in kindergarten i was able to read both Hebrew and English fluently....so what ?!"
        That being so and you felt compelled to respond to this thread, why, with your knowledge of Hebrew, did you not respond to the original question?
"if you be the teacher it is your responsibility to proove your points not mine to disproove anything......."
        I gave an answer based on what I was taught and gave references where more information could be obtained. Since you criticized and implied I was in error, it is then incumbent on you to prove your case.
"i merely suggested that the entire colleqy(?) sounded like academic jargon and the "traditions of men" that would pollute The Word...."
        The word is "colloquy." How does discussing the pronunciation of a name "pollute The Word"? How is discussing a Hebrew vowel "traditions of men"? Again back to my earlier question, since you are more knowledgeable in Hebrew than anyone here, including the ancient sheepherder, and the question dealt with the pronunciation of a Hebrew name, why did you not answer the question, why have you talked all around the issue and still have not answered the question? What is the correct pronunciation of the name which appears in Ex 17:9 and 198 other times in the OT?

TheWAYne,

        Click on the link below and you can hear a Jewish cantor singing (or canting) Ex 17:9.

Ex 17: 9 Vayomer Moshe el-Yehoshua bechar-lanu anashim vetse hilachem ba'Amalek machar anochi nitsav al-rosh hagiv'ah umateh ha'Elohim beyadi.
Ex 17: 9 Moses said to Joshua, "Choose men for us, and prepare for battle against Amalek. Tomorrow, I will stand on top of the hill with the staff of God in my hand."

http://bible.ort.org/bible/htm/exodus/torah/17091709.htm

Zaqunra'ahyahuw
Lo'Qor 'Azar Yadah

[This message has been edited by OldShepherd (edited 06-23-2000).]

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posted 06-23-2000 02:04 AM            

give me the keys to your time machine and i'll go back there and make a recording of the pronounciation in the various dialects.
Biblical hebrew is without vowels.... do you perhaps posess a pronunciation guide issued by Ezra and the Massorites (sounds like a good name for a (capitol'R') Rock group) ? if so i urge you to share it with us.

not only do i like Moffat's work i also admire the works of Ginsburg, Bullinger, Strong and a number of the late 19th century Calvinists (the joyful ones). EVERYTHING, however centers on Jesus Christ Who Is The Living Word.

Pray for the about-to-be Martyrs !

in Yashua's precious Name

posted 06-23-2000 02:29 AM            

anybody hooooome ? Do you read English? Or is it perhaps your second language? Or are you deliberately trying to make an ass out of yourself. Here is the question.

"In regarsa to The Name; Y`hoshua , is the Y` pronounced YE or YA or a YO ? and iff you have any information as to how it sounds would you please post that as well with your reply, or if any anyone else has information regarding the Y` thank you."

Is that too hard for you, Phil? It does not say how was it pronounced or how did it sound BCE or some other time but how is it pronounced, how does it sound today? Perhaps TheWAYne has never heard Hebrew spoken and wants to have some idea what it sounds like.

And while I am familiar with regional dialects, etc, there just might be some relationship between how Hebrew is pronounced today and how it was pronounced in the past.

"Pray for the about-to-be Martyrs !"

posted 06-23-2000 02:50 AM            

pronounce it whatever way sounds pleasant and correct and is facile to the tongue.
being an ass i have no business furthering your image of pedantic pomposity.... i'll leave you to your study of Cicero "those who do not learn from the mistakes of history" are known as human beings and if they were capable of doing so would have no need of redemption !

aDios !

posted 06-23-2000 03:10 AM            

Just to keep the record straight. I picked up my last diploma almost 20 years ago and that was the last time, other than very brief visits, I have spent any time on a campus.

I work in the "real world" I'm a government employee at a small military base in the Far East, which might get very hot, real soon, despite the high level meeting which just occurred a little bit north of here.

Yeah, let's just pronounce the words/names any old way we want to. Although those guys read those scriptures every week, they could have forgotten from one week to the next how they pronounced something. Of course, Avi is not going to correct Ben if he mispronounces a word. And nobody has ever heard of "cognate" words in related languages.

[This message has been edited by OldShepherd (edited 06-23-2000).]

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posted 06-23-2000 04:08 AM            

sure hope things don't get too hot over there with all of that loral and motorola gear in the hands of our neighbors over there. do your hosts still mutilate children of mixed racial heritage ? (pearl buck's writings).o well, thier northern neighbors are selling kidneys and livers "on the hoof"; although i do know that the Lord has made many strong converts in that region..... these are the soon to be Martyrs. i know that Father is well aware of all that goes on..... still we are told to pray for our rulers, our enemies (frankly its the "hot coals" part that intrigues me) and of course one another. i don't quite understand the dynamic but i know that prayer works.

anyhow, sorry i jumped salty...

Yah-Shoo'-ah why ? because my favorite bible teacher says it that way. although i think some of his other pronunciations really sound my cognative disonance alarm. Samarians to the contrary my 'set' is for YHVH while most in this particular group go for YHWH..... reminds me of Arminians vs. Calvinists (if you diagram it,its circular).
When it comes to our Father "long suffering" is a gross understatement.

May The Lord bless and keep you....