posted 11-28-1999 05:56 AM           

Hey don't mis-understand me!

Folks are free to call on whatever Names they want,
but that doesn't mean that no one isn't going to say something about it.

Personally I take offence at names of shame and blasphemy,
but if it is done in ignorance,it should be over looked or forgiven.

There are some that use these names,
not because they don't know better,because they do.

They do it it because of the Tradition or their RELIGION
or because their preacher said it was ok, etc.

THAT'S STUPIDITY and that's inexcusable!

This is were PRIDE,EGO
and all these other fine virtues come in to play.

What about Old George???

What do you think ?

Is this guy just ignorant or is he Stupid ?

Seeing how it is probobly his first time around the block,
I would say the guy is ignorant and give him the benifit of the doubt.
But if he keeps coming back with the same old names and the sos,
then he is no longer ignorant,he's Stupid.

posted 11-28-1999 09:18 AM            

Well, that was easy for me to type, so now I need to pray that I don't fly off the handle next time someone doesn't grasp what I believe is truth. May Yahweh overlook our many, many faults and have mercy on us all. I need His mercy so much.

posted 11-28-1999 11:25 AM            

quote:

---

The names "Yehshua" and "Yahshua" are not the same. "Yehshua" is a name which comes from the name change by the Jews to "Yeshu" which is an acronym for yod, shin, waw, y'shu, standing for three Hebrew words, "yiddish sh'mo w'zither," translated to mean "MAY HIS NAME AND MEMORY BE BLOTTED OUT" (Tol'doth Yeshu, page 7). The ancient Jews conspired to ERACE the name of Yahshua by replacing it with this SIMILAR, but INCORRECT name, because they did not believe He was the Son of Yahweh.

---

Oily Drew wrote

quote:

---

I had read that Y.E.Sh.U. was an anachronim for Y'mah Shmo V'Zochayr; "may his name be botted from rememberance"

---

Jewish New Testament

quote:

---

In modern Hebrew "Yeshua's" name is pronounced and written "Yeshu", which may have been the ancient pronunciatin in the Galil. However, reflecting two thousand years of conflict between the Church and the Synagogue, it is also an acronym for Yimach sh'mo v'zikhrono (may his name and memory be blotted out).

---

How does anyone expect to agree on his name? Why even our information does not agree. Look at the differences. Three quotes and three variations.

Bosassyah- yiddish sh'mo w'zither;
Oily Drew- Y'mah Shmo V'Zochayr;
Jewish NT- Yimach sh'mo v'zikhrono

The modern pronunciation Yeshu is/or maybe the acronym, NOT Yeshua or Yehshua or Yahshua.

The name Yeshua was a common name in the Old Testament:

Ezra 2:2, 36, 40
Ezra 3:2, 6, 8, 9, 19
Ezra 4:3
Ezra 5:2
Ezra 8:33
Ezra 10:18
Nehemia 7:7, 11, 39, 43
Nehemiah 8:7, 17
Nehemiah 9:4, 5
Nehemiah 10:9
Nehemia 12:1, 7, 10, 18, 24, 26
1 Chronicles 24:11
2 Chronicles 31:15

Yeshua is the name of a city:

Nehemiah 11:26

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ShaniYah

posted 11-28-1999 03:05 PM            

You do indeed bring up some interesting points, though, such as the discrepancies concerning the Hebrew way of writing "May his name and memory be blotted out." As you demonstrated, people can't even seem to agree as to how that phrase should be worded in Hebrew! You cited the three variants thus far presented:

Bosassyah- yiddish sh'mo w'zither;
Oily Drew- Y'mah Shmo V'Zochayr;
Jewish NT- Yimach sh'mo v'zikhrono

Professor George Howard adds yet another, which is very similar to the one found in the Jewish NT: Yimmah shemo vezichro. This information comes from an article he contributed to a journal called New Testament Studies, vol. 34, 1988, page 61. The article is entitled "A Primitive Hebrew Gospel of Matthew and the Tol'Doth Yeshu."

In the thread I started entitled "Name of the Messiah," I touch on the Tol'Doth Yeshu and how we should be leery of relying on any of its contents, based on the fact that it presents a denial of the Messiah's resurrection, claiming that Yehudah the gardener stole His body from the tomb, not to mention other strange teachings that are apparently derived from the Talmud.

Thanks for the input here! May Yahweh bless you!
Yours in Messiah,
Larry

posted 11-29-1999 06:02 AM            

You wrote:
"At least we as brothers do agree it ain't j.e.s.u.s.and that's NO secret!"

To that I reply: HalleluYAH! Yes, Don, we do indeed! May His name be praised forever more, and may we honor Him all our days.

We all have so much in common. I hope we never lose sight of that. I believe everyone contributing to this forum has a sincere love for the Father; we just have different levels of understanding. Now if we could only focus on understanding that the intent behind all the contributions is to serve Yahweh, I think we could accomplish much together. It's okay, though, I think we're getting there. Praise be to Yahweh!

May Yahweh's blessings be with each of you.

Yours in Messiah,
Larry

posted 11-30-1999 10:51 AM           

Ha Shem the nameless Hidden god.

Masonry knows what so many forget,THAT RELIGIONS ARE MANY,
BUT RELIGION IS ONE.
Therefore it invites to it's altar men of all faiths,knowing that,if they use different names
for THE NAMELESS ONE OF A HUNDRED NAMES,
they are yet praying to ONE GOD and father of all.
( A quote from beneath the cover of the bible that sits on the altar in the Masonic lodge
as the interductory section)

RELIGION

Something for ya'll to think about!
You will not find the word "religion" in the Hebrew Scriptures.
It's not found in the OT.

If you go to the Strong's and look up this word, It gives two # for this word in five places
#2356 and #2454 Greek dic.
Only from the Greek translations is this word to be found and translated into English as
"RELIGION".
Three places in the Greek NT,in Acts.26:5, Jas.1:26,27,
it's Strong's # 2356-"THRESKEIA" from a der.of 2357;ceremonial observance:
religion,worshipping.
Two places in the Greek NT in Gal.1:13,14,
it's Strong's #2454 "IOUDAISMOS" from 2450:JUDAism,i.e. the JEWish faith and
useages---JEWS RELIGION.

The question this all raises in my mind, is do you have a "THRESKEIA" or a
"IOUDAISMOS" (RELIGION)in your life ?

As far as Hebrew goes,I don't see "RELIGION"!
There is NO WORD in Hebrew for it.

Doesn't this mean in Hebrew there is no such thing as "RELIGION"?
So where does that leave CHRISTianity and JUDAism?
Are these not "RELIGIONS"?
One being "THRESKIA" ,the other being "IOUDAISMOS" = both being what we call in
English "RELIGIONs"!?

Is this thing called "RELIGION",an invention of mans hands in this case the invention of
Greek hands or is it much older than the Greeks?

Clearly the Masons Believe in RELIGION!

Just as they believe in the NAMELESS ONE the HIDDEN GOD!!

The GOD of many Names Satan !

They know who Ha Shem is,to bad the YAHUWDIM don't!

posted 12-06-1999 04:51 PM            

Special hellos to Larry & Don.

I agree with Larry, that we need to extend brotherly love to one another - even if, and especially if, another does not agree with us 100%. I too need His favor, and in the past, have fired off posts a little to quickly - so let us mind our conscience: not that of our's, but that of our brother's.

I prefer the vocalization of "Yahushua", or "Yahshua". This would be presented as: ee-ah-shooa

It is the first two Hebrew letters, that is the concern with "Yeh" or "Yah". The first three letters would be, for instance, "Yahu". Each of the letters has more than one pronounciation:

Y = "ee", "ay", "eh"
H = "ah", "eh", "ay"
W = "oo", "ah"

Y & H are the first two letters. Could be either "ee-ah" or "ee-eh" - that is either, "Yah" or "Yeh".

We each have our own preferences, but as for the Name vocalizations that Don and Larry prefer, both seem technically viable English soundings.

In the Spirit of Messiah, let us have some unity in love in our praise of Him.

HalleluYah!

Jeffery

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New Covenant Assembly of Yahweh

posted 12-06-1999 05:56 PM         

I believe you need to go to a good Hebrew grammar book. I am not saying this to be mean spirited, but it is a fact that the pronunciation rules that you give are incorrect. I don't ask anyone to accept my word for it. I ask them to go to a textbook and check me out. Various authors will explain the rules in slightly different fashions, but the gist of the rules is as follows:

1. An unpointed yod following a vowel lengthens the proceeding vowel (a, i, or e), otherwise the yod has consonantal value (like y in yellow).

2. He has consonantal value (like h in hat) except as a final radical when it serves to stress the proceeding vowel.

3. An initial vav has consonantal value (like v in valve). A medial vav usually produces a long "o" or "u" sound but in some cases it has consonantal value. As an example, dalet-vav-dalet can be pronounced "David" or "dod" (long "o", beloved or uncle), depending on whether vav serves as a vowel or consonant.

The combination yod-he in isolation or at the end of a word is pronounced "Yah". The "a" sound comes from a kamats pointing on the yod. Likewise yod-he-vav at the end of a word is pronounced "yahu". the final long "u" sound coming from the vav.

Please check me out with a good grammar book.

B'shem Yeshua

posted 12-06-1999 11:26 PM            

I checked you out, and when you say that the yod, he, waw at the end of a word is pronounced "yahu", that form is a bit misleading in English letters. For in English, yahu would be pronounced "Ya- Hoo", with the hard H sound, when this form is a gramatical impossibility in Hebrew. The pronunciation in Hebrew would be "Ya- oo", without the hard H sound. And we can actually drop the H in the English form "Yah", for it serves no purpose. It would be more accurately written in English as "Ya" or "Ia", thus eliminating any temptation for us English speaking people to use any hard H sound.

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Shalom to all :) and may Iaue's people fear His name and glorify it...

Anav

posted 12-07-1999 12:53 AM            

Thanks to all for sharing wisdom and insight here. I truly appreciate it! May Yahweh bless you all!
Yours in Messiah,
Larry

posted 12-07-1999 07:35 AM         

I don't mean to pick a fight, but I would be most interested in knowing which GRAMMAR BOOK is your source. My statements are backed up by the following references that I possess: several grammar books (with accompanying tape in one case), a CD-ROM Hebrew course with sound, an English-Hebrew dictionary, and a couple of siddurim. There are also a couple of online introductory courses that also support this pronunciation. To repeat, at the END of a word yod-he-vav is pronounced "yahu". And at the END of a word or in isolation yod-he is pronounced "YAH". In the latter case "he" would normally be silent (only giving stress to the final vowel), but here it has a mappik, which gives it consonantal force. The only true "silent" letters (actually stops) in Hebrew are alef and ayin.

Again I beg all who are reading here to go to a GRAMMAR BOOK and see for yourself. There is a lot of misinformation on the internet. Be careful. I don't ask you to believe me. I ask you to check in a reliable source. If you pronounce this way in front of someone who knows Hebrew they are not going to know what you are saying.

b'shem Yeshua

posted 12-07-1999 08:32 AM           

Quote:

there is no logic in referring to our Heavenly Father as "haShem."
---
I fully concur!

But is that the end of it ?

posted 12-07-1999 12:00 PM            

Hashem was a name given to man, most likely as a tribute to YHWH, which is "the Name". A Gizonite is named Hashem (1Chron.11:34).

But of course in those days the name of YHWH was pronounced among the Yisraelites and Hashem was not an alias for YHWH.

Don't think you'll see too many people named Hashem nowadays though....

posted 12-07-1999 02:44 PM            

I am assuming that you believe that yod, he, waw combination produce a "Yah- Hoo" sound. You prefer to write it in English as "yahu". All I was pointing out is that this pronunciation is not possible, unless you break the rules and use the "he" TWICE. (It can get a little confusing if we do this, because I could pronounce "encyclopedia" as "ens- sike- klo- opeed- eedy- dee- yah" and you, not using letters twice, might say "en- sigh- klo- pee- dee- ah") You yourself pointed out that the yod, he combination form the sound "YA", which they do. This leaves you with only a "waw" to get your second syllable, or diphthong, of "Hoo". But a waw does not make the sound Hoo, but can make the "oo" sound. This is why the yod, he, waw combination, commonly called the trigrammaton, is pronounced..."Ya- oo" with no hard H sound.

This is also clearly evident when you speak the sacred name of Yahweh very slowly. As you get through the first, second and third letters, you make the "ee, ah, oo" sound, and then finish off with the "ay", completing the word ee, ah, oo, ay...YAHWEH. This same principle applies also to the trigrammaton in the name Iauchanan the Immerser or Revelator, and in the prophet's name YeshaIau (Isaiah). The first one is pronounced Ya- oo- ka- non, and the second one Yeh- sha- ya- oo.

I have used several authoritative sources over the years to arrive at this understanding. I can list some of them for you if you really need me to. Always remember, the "he" cannot be used twice, and this rules out the pronunciation "yahu", unless you are vocalizing it as "yah-u" (Ya- oo), without the hard H sound.

Yes, I think we all can agree that there is no merit in calling Yahweh "hashem". It is simply an excuse to avoid using the name He Himself gave us... Yahweh, usually out of rebellion or a hatred for the sacred name. This spirit stems from the adversary, who despises the name Yahweh. It takes nothing short of true humility to simply do as He asks. To concoct our own name or title for Him is done out of pride and rebellion for the most part. But some may just truly be deceived and ignorant for a while, but if they are His true people, they will walk in the light, little by little, more and more each day. I think that is our goal.

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Shalom to all :) and may Iaue's people fear His name and glorify it...

Anav