posted 10-27-1999 06:19 AM            

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You quoted from "Yehoshua, Yeshua, or Yeshu, Which one is the name of Jesus in Hebrew?" -By Dr. James Price. However, you omitted the concluding paragraph. Is this because Dr. Price's conclusion does not support your theory on the pronunciation of the name?
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No, actually you are not seeing the point of why I even posted that. It was to show that in the LXX according to Dr. Price, Yahushua is rendered as Iasous, that was what my intent was.

And I omitted more than just the concluding paragraph; most of the entire article was omitted for space reasons. However, you have been nice enough to provide a link probably thinking by doing so, you'll show me up! Moreover, this is not a "theory", His Name is Yahushua, whether Dr. Price, or anyone else for that matter, agrees with that or not.

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Note:"The author recalls", "then postulates" "If the above is true" "must have been"long lost form" Can anyone besides me see how flimsy the above statement is? Does anyone happen to have a copy of the 60+ year old German, "Philologische Wochenschrift" and can they read it? Is there any historical or documentary evidence of any kind, whatsoever, shown supporting Herr Doktor Lamer's recollection, postulation, and guess work?
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Can anyone besides me see how argumentative you are? I suppose you are more qualified to make postulations knowing your credentials and all. Hans Lamer best keep his mouth shut, although his knowledge of the subject most likely far exceeded yours.

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Rhakeem, I have a friendly challenge for you, try to verify a so-called healing goddess named Ieso, in any current Greek language reference. There ain't no such thing!
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Challenge? What is this Rhakeem/O.S. jeopardy? No such thing? Time to study on some basic Greek Mythology. Firstly, just F.Y.I., in the Ionic dialect of the Greeks, Iaso was referred to as Ieso.

This link will explain some of the differences between Greek dialects.

ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~jtreat/koine/classical.html

Iaso or Meditrina in Roman Mythology was the daughter of Asclepius, the healing g-d.

hsa.brown.edu/~maicar/OtherDeities.html
www.pantheon.org/mythica/articles/i/iaso.html
www.aldstar.com/forum/origins/gods/D0006/I251.html

But the healing g-ddess Iaso (Ieso) does not exist, huh? Then tell me why there is an organization named after her.

Have you ever heard of the International Angelman Syndrome Organization (IASO)?

Angelman Syndrome is a neurological disorder associated with developmental disability, speech impairment, movement or balance disorder, characteristic behavior, epilepsy, and sleep disorder (among other things). No doubt people who are afflicted by this disorder are in need of healing, probably why the letters of the organization spell out IASO, the HEALING g-ddess.

Also probably why the website is named after her father, the healing g-d. But wait that's just speculation (isn't it?).....
www.asclepius.com/iaso/

That's why there's a hospital named after her (isn't it?)...
www.iaso.gr/comp_en.htm

Unless I made all those websites up, I do believe there actually was a Greek healing g-ddess called Iaso, still being acknowledged today in the medical field, there's your long lost form buddy.

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However, it is dishonest and deceitful to invent wild stories to villify/demonize the Greek name, trying to prove that it has some satanic/pagan origin.
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I'm not trying to prove anything, I already did. But for your sake.....

...Praytell, what is the male form of Iaso? Iasous, which is EXACTLY what Dr. Price has said was rendered in the LXX for the name Yahushua.

Among the dialects spoken in Greek how is Iaso rendered in the Ionic dialect? Ieso.

Now what is the male form of Ieso? Iesous, which is exactly what is rendered in Strong’s Greek /New Testament Dictionary #2424.

Study the Greek language and brush up on your Greek mythology if you doubt me. For you, OS, it seems to be a matter of proving people wrong to prove that you are right. You should be slow to reply and quick to research to see what I posted was true or not.

Instead you seem to be out to make me a sensationalist because I post things that you don't seem to understand or agree with. I'm here to learn and spread truth, not be called dishonest or deceitful, for I have done neither in this matter. The old saying "sticks and stones..." is false. It does hurt me to see this form of soft-slandering being done at this forum. I have been guilty over all, and I am making a concentrated effort to change (by the favor of Elohim).

But if you truly disagree with something I post, why not just tell me and ask me what is going on before you go off to name calling. If you want to lower this to insinuated name calling, don't bother to reply to my posts. If I were wrong I would have looked bad enough without you TRYING to pour it on.

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In Greek there is no single or combination of letters which can render the sound "sh", as in Yeshua.
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I already covered that in my other posts.

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Therefore, to transliterate Yeshua into Greek the NT writers, would have to write, Iesoua. However, "a" is a feminine ending. See, for example, petros and petra in Strong's concordance. As you can see in petros, "s" is the masculine ending. This can also be seen in Greek names such as Julia/Julius, Augusta/Augustus, Octavia/Octavius. Considering the importance the Hebrew and Greek cultures placed on names, would those writing and/or speaking Greek call a man by what they considered an insulting feminine name?
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Interesting, but they can call him the male form of the name Ieso, female g-ddess right? Didn't know we could delve into the minds of Greek men in the first century C.E. I guess to call him by a name ending in "a" was too much to go along with Shabbat, Feast Days, Monotheism, etc., don't wan't to inconvenience them, right?

Iesous the healer does fit quite nicely into the family of g-ds the Greeks had. Nice accommodation for pagans who just left a life of worshipping Greek deities, among those being Ieso. I know you think I invented that though...

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The Hebrew name of Hamaschiach is Yahushua or Y'hushua. According to HaDvar HaElohim the Aramaic name is Yeshua. The latter name was transliterated as Iesous by early Greek believers, such as Luke the Physician, who wrote Luke and Acts.
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I would love to see the ORIGINAL manuscripts, to see how Yahushua's name was written. We all know at some point in time Yahushua began being referred to as Iesous, but I never read anywhere that it was found in the ORIGINAL manuscripts. Could you show them to me?

No matter, my belief is centered in Yerushalayim, not Athens. My native language is English, I can pronounce "sh" sounds and say Yahushua without any problem.

I guess this could go on all day. We both could be studying Torah instead!

posted 10-27-1999 03:53 PM         

I'm puzzled, are you writing to yourself or what? It appears you are engaged in a conversation with someone. Please explain. Also, I'm beginning to wonder if this name business is becoming a stumblingblock for some of us in loving our neighbor.

posted 10-28-1999 02:41 AM            

. . .in the LXX according to Dr. Price, Yahushua is rendered as Iasous. . .His Name is Yahushua, whether Dr. Price, or anyone else for that matter, agrees with that or not.
_____It is interesting to note that Dr. Price documented his article with quotes from the Bible, and early Talmud and Mishnah writings and you disagree with his findings. Yet you quote a snippet of his when it suits your purpose. And Lamer does not document anything, at all, but you totally agree with him.
_____"His Name is Yahushua" and, according to the Bible, His name is also Yeshua, whether you agree with that or not!
Praytell, what is the male form of Iaso? Iasous, which is EXACTLY what Dr. Price has said was rendered in the LXX for the name Yahushua."
_____First, Dr. Price does not mention either "Ieso" nor "Iaso." The Bauer/Gingrich/Denker lexicon, the renowned standard for Biblical Greek, lists the names of several Greek deities, e.g. Zeus, Hermes, and Artemis For the male deities Zeus and Hermes, there is no female form, of the name, listed. For the female deity Artemis, there is no male form, of the name, listed. I checked several other names and found no male forms listed for any female names, nor vice versa. If there were, again according to BGD, the male form of "Iaso" would be formed by adding the final sigma, only, and would be written Iasos, not "Iasous". Do you have any documentation, of any kind, Greek dictionary, lexicon, or concordance, supporting this theory?
I suppose you are more qualified to make postulations knowing your credentials and all.
_____I made no postulations. I documented my post with quotes from scripture and Strong's concordance.
Hans Lamer best keep his mouth shut, although his knowledge of the subject most likely far exceeded yours.
_____Quod Erat Demonstrandum. If you like I will tell you my qualifications, but I don't really think you're interested. Whatever Lamer's qualifications, he documented nothing!
Firstly, just F.Y.I., in the Ionic dialect of the Greeks, Iaso was referred to as Ieso. This link will explain some of the differences between Greek dialects.
_____This is an interesting link. If by chance you happen to review it yourself you will find that it does not state that proper nouns and/or names are pronounced differently in Ionic. And it says absolutely nothing about the names "Iaso"/"Ieso."
www.ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~jtreat/koine/classical.html

"Iaso or Meditrina in Roman Mythology was the daughter of Asclepius, the healing g-d."
"Among the dialects spoken in Greek how is Iaso rendered in the Ionic dialect? Ieso. Now what is the male form of Ieso? Iesous, which is exactly what is rendered in Strong s Greek /New Testament Dictionary #2424."
"This is a grave error, since the name Iasous is the masculine form of Iaso, the Greek healing g-ddess."
_____According to BGD there are no masculine forms for Greek female deities. And Strong's 2424 has nothing to do with "Ieso" as you seem to imply.
_____In your original post you stated.
"Iesous (Jesus) is not a transliteration of Yahushua but a translation. A trasliteration would be trying to bring the EXACT sound from one language to another.
and
First, names should be transliterated as best as possible between languages, not translated especially since this is the Name of the Son of Elohim.
_____Now you are trying to say that the name "Iaso" was pronounced differently, i.e. as "Ieso", in another dialect, within the same language? Without any documentation, I might add. Don't you think this is a little contradictory? Insisting that Greek writers should have retained the "exact" pronunciation of a Hebrew name, when the names of their own deities were supposedly pronounced differently, in different dialects.
_____What is the male form of "Ieso?" You have not shown any documentation, either Greek dictionaries, lexicons, or concordances that verifies that this name even exists, in any dialect. I have researched "The Dictionary of Classical Mythology", (300 pp.) J.E. Zimmerman, Harper & Row, 1964; "The Dictionary of Classical Mythology", (603 pp.) Pierre Grimal, Oxford Press, 1986; "The Encyclopedia of Religion", (16 vol.) Mircea Eliade, Ed., MacMillan, 1987; and Everyman's Dictionary of Non-Classical Mythology, Egerton Sykes, Dent Pub., 1962, in addition to BGD and Strong's, I cannot find the name "Ieso" listed in any credible source.
_____There is no male form of this name. According to the conventions for names in BGD, if there were it would be formed by adding the final sigma, and would be "Iesos". This can be seen in such names as Jeremiah/Ieremias and Elijah/Elias, in the NT.
But the healing g-ddess Iaso (Ieso) does not exist, huh?
_____I said nothing about "Iaso", I said a goddess named "Ieso", does not exist. As yet, you still have not shown any documentation, verification, or proof that she does.
But if you truly disagree with something I post, why not just tell me and ask me what is going on before you go off to name calling.
_____I did, I posted factual documented, information refuting undocumented and unverified information. I did not call you or anyone else names. I said "It", i.e. the practice/action, of inventing tall tales to villify/demonize the Greek transliteration Iesous is dishonest and deceitful. I have seen this done repeatedly, with the names, Esus, Hesus, Zeus, and now, Iaso. Since they are all supposed to be the "truth." Why is that all these pagan origin theories can't decide which "truth" is "true?"
I would love to see the ORIGINAL manuscripts, to see how Yahushua's name was written. We all know at some point in time Yahushua began being referred to as Iesous, but I never read anywhere that it was found in the ORIGINAL manuscripts. Could you show them to me?
_____We might not have any "original' manuscripts but there are more than 24,000 partial and complete manuscript copies of the New Testament, dating to the 1st century. There are also some 86,000 quotations from the early church fathers and several thousand Lectionaries (church-service books containing Scripture quotations used in the early centuries of Christianity, many of which include the name Iesous). The New Testament manuscripts are nearly identical from one manuscript to the next. In fact, of the variations (between one manuscript to another on the same passage -- for example a mispelled word) there are no major doctrines or beliefs that are affected.
_____What do you propose? Everyone rewrite the NT according to their individual beliefs every time someone decides something new has been mistranslated?
Didn't know we could delve into the minds of Greek men in the first century C.E.
_____What we can do is observe how all other OT names were transliterated in the NT, compare, and make informed decisions based on those observations.

Zaqunraahyahuw

[This message has been edited by OldShepherd (edited 10-28-1999).]

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posted 10-28-1999 04:49 AM           

To the uninformed it needs to be pointed out that IASO is the usual Greek form,while
IESO is from the Ionic dailect of the Greeks.

posted 10-28-1999 10:51 AM           

To the uninformed it needs to be pointed out that IASO is the usual Greek form,while
IESO is from the Ionic dailect of the Greeks.

The connection between IESO and IESOUS, can be seen in Liddell and Scott,
Greek-English Lexicon page 816
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Iaso and Ieso are virtually the same Greek goddess of healing,but because her
father's(Asclepius) and grand father's(Apollo) identities as Sun-deities,she is a Sun-deity
herself.

Therefore,the name "IESOus",which is derived from "IESO",can be traced back to SUN
worship.

"Ieso-us",-----Hummm, really it's pretty slick,if you really think about it.

Next to "Ieso",man shaped a proper masculine name,
"Ieso-us",and made it the name of the christian savior.

BINGO, now the Greeks had a GREEK Savior with a GREEK NAME.

For Greeks who venerated a healing goddess "Ieso",
a christian male healing god "Ieso-us" must of been a most acceptable thing.

This Hellenisation was rather clever,if you think about it.

After all,the Greeks don't want a HEBREW SAVIOR with a HEBREW NAME!

posted 10-28-1999 06:06 PM         

Why don't we look at some facts and do some reasoning.

There are several individuals in the Tanakh that are named:

1) yod-he-vav-shin-ayin or yod-he-vav-shin-vav-ayin both of which are pronounced exactly the same and transliterates into English as "Yehoshua"

2) yod-shin-vav-ayin which transliterates into English as "Yeshua".

Both of these names are transliterated into Greek in the LXX as iota-eta-sigma-omicron-upsilon-sigma.

Also there is a town in the Negev referred to in Nekhemyah 11:26 named yod-shin-vav-ayin. The LXX transliterates that name as iota-eta-sigma-omicron-upsilon.

The LXX was finished before the birth of HaMashiakh and was in use in Eretz Yisrael during his ministry. Yet we do not read any suggestion that HaMashiakh believed that these transliterations were improper. HaMashiakh did not fail to criticize the traditions of the leaders when he felt that they wre wrong. It is therefore reasonable to believe that he would correct a translation that incorrectly substituted the name of a pagan deity for a proper Hebrew name especially for his own name.

The conclusion must be that iota-eta-sigma-omicron-upsilon-sigma is the proper transliteration of Yehoshua/Yeshua into Greek. Efforts to say otherwise are not based on the facts but on some prejudice.

v'hayah YHVH l'melekh al kol ha'aretz bayom hahu yiyeh YHVH ekhad ush'mo ekhad.

JustBill

posted 10-28-1999 09:29 PM            

_____Since the Liddel-Scott Greek Dictionary/Lexicon has been cited as an authority on this subject, let us consult that resource. It is available on-line at,
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/resolveform

"Ia_sô, Ion. Iêsô, oos, contr. ous, hé, voc. Iasoi, (iaomai) Iaso, the goddess of healing and health, Aristoph. Pl. 701,ti=Ar. Fr.21, Herod.4.6, Paus. 1.34.3."

_____It appears from this entry that Iêsô is the Ionic form of Ia_só and that there is a form of this name spelled Iêsôus/Ia_sôus However, you will note the absence of any reference e.g., m, masc., or masculine, indicating that Ia_sô, or its alternate Ionic spelling, Iêsô, is anything other than the name of a female Greek deity. In fact the entry clearly shows that all the forms listed mean, Iaso, the goddess of healing and health, nothing more!
_____If we consult any standard Greek Grammar reference we learn that ous is the Accusative plural case ending and does not change nouns from feminine to masculine!

"Feminine nouns of the Second Declension. The declension of feminine nouns of the second declension is, . . . Plural: Nominative=oi, Genitive=oon(omega nu), Dative=ois, Accusative=ous, Vocative=oi", Martin, p. 15

"In Greek the accusative case ending is added to a noun to express the object of the sentence.", Martin, P. 10

Iêsous, ou, dat. oi, ti=Supp.Epigr. Joshua, LXXJo.1.1, al., Act.Ap.7.45; in ti=Act.Ap. NT, with dat. -ou, JESUS, Ev.Matt.9.27, al.

_____As can be seen by comparing these entries from the authoritative Liddel-Scott there is no connection between Ia_sô/Iêsô and Iêsous, none! Those who continue to push this absurd idea must explain why a man would be called "Healing Goddesses", feminine, plural! Evidently they would have us believe that throughout the past 1900+ years of history, until now, there has not been a single faithful believer who recognized this and/or protested it.
_____And they continue to concoct bizarre theories to villify/demonize the name Iêsous, twisting grammar, inventing definitions, trying desperately to show some pagan origin, Esus, Hesus, Zeus, Sus, Ieso. When one wild theory is exposed as false, without missing a beat, they charge right on with a new one!
_____Why is this necessary?
kai gnosesthe tén alétheian kai é alétheia eleutherosei umas

Zaqunraahyahuw

[This message has been edited by OldShepherd (edited 10-29-1999).]

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posted 10-29-1999 08:25 AM         

Let's see if I can say anything helpful. I assume that you are using the KJV. I generally read the NASB and in both Acts 7:45 and Heb 4:8 the word is translated as Joshua. Of course, it's the same Greek word that is translated as Jesus in other places.
The KJV translators were being consistent but not necessarily helpful. One could (and perhaps should) transliterate iota-eta-sigma-omicron-upsilon-sigma as Yeshua in all places, but how does that help the reader who does not know Bible history to distinguish HaMashiakh from son of Nun? The name was a popular name. In Luke 3:29 we have an ancestor of HaMashiakh named Yeshua (Joshua NASB). In Acts 13:6 we have Elymas bar (son of) Yeshua (Bar-Jesus NASB). And in Col 4:11 we have Yeshua (Jesus NASB) called Justus.

Josephus is said to mention 20 different Yeshuas, 10 of which were contemporaries of HaMashiakh and the Dead Sea Scrolls reveal 10 Yeshuas, one being named Yeshua ben Yeshua. Since the name was so common and the society was a multilingual society with Greek being the language of commerce and learning, the people certainly knew how to go between the Hebrew/Aramaic "Yeshua" and its representation in Greek.

A final thought: Bible translation is usually done by a committee. Each person working on a book or part of a book. If there is not sufficient coordination, the same word may be translated differently in different places when the same translation would have been perfectly acceptable. Remember Bible translation is a human effort. The translation process is not inspired. Nevertheless, Barukh HaShem for the translators.

b'shem Yeshua

posted 10-29-1999 12:49 PM            

I also like the fact that you two are consistent and don't equivocate. I have also noticed that when reviled, you don't return in kind. Good yob!

Now as for the Greek and the Hebrew, I noticed some similarities between the two aleph-alpha-bets. And that is that many of the consonants between the two directly correlate, such as aleph=alpha, bet=beta, gimmel=gamma, dalet=delta, etc.

In other words, the letters iota-eta-sigma-omicron-upsilon-sigma, would their Hebrew counterparts be yod-hey-shin-ayin-(samech?)

And for the beginning disciples not knowing the difference between Joshua the son of Nun, and Jesus the Messiah, on account of not knowing the context or the history, wouldn't Jeshua as opposed to Joshua be a sufficient differentiation seeing as how the translation of the O.T. contains both in English? To me, that would certainly be more consistant and acceptable than using the name Jesus. What do you two think? Anyone else with a calm, consistent and coherent explanation?

posted 10-29-1999 02:51 PM         

Todah for the kind remarks. I'm talking off the top of my head, but I think the longer forms of the name are used for the son of Nun. I suppose if I were doing the translating I would use Yehoshua for son of Nun. I would have to bounce that idea off people who know more than I to see what they think. These are interesting questions and are interesting to think about.

You are right about the similarity of alphabets. I think the sequence was Semitic -> Greek -> Latin -> English. If I'm wrong here, please correct me. So we have: alef-bet, alpha-beta, a-b. One word of warning is that the Hebrew alef-bet is consonants only (well almost). Alef as well as ayin are "stops" which for native English speakers are silent. The sounds that we frequently associate with them are from the vowel points. Example - in yod-shin-vav-ayin (Yeshua), the final "a" is from the patah on the ayin and not from the ayin itself. For completeness, yod is pointed with a tsereh (e) and the vav is pointed as a shuruk (u).

We Messianics use the name Yeshua for HaMashiakh because it is also the Hebrew world for salvation found in the Tanakh. Such passages are incorprated into our liturgy and praise with the intent to utilize the double meaning of the word.

It is getting late for me as this is preparation day. For now ...

Shabbat Shalom

JustBill

ps: One idea I hope I can explore after Shabbat is the idea that Modern English is a relatively recent language and as such "was stuck" with decisions in terms that were made before we had commonly available Modern English Bibles.

posted 10-30-1999 08:33 AM           

The Strong's Hebrew Dic,YESHUWAH #3444 fem.pass.part. of #3467 YASHA:
something saved i.e. (abstr.) deliverance: hence.aid ,victory,prosperity:--
deliverance,health,help (ing).salvation.save,saving (health),welfare.

#3467 YASHA A PRIME ROOT;prop.to be openwide or free,i.e. (by impl.) to be
safe;caus. to free or succor:---at all,avenging,defend,deliver (er),help,preserve,recue, be
safe bring (having) salvation,save ,get victory.

YESHA #3468 from 3467 YASHA; liberty,deliverance prosperity:
safety,salvation,saving.

The prime root of YESHUA is YASHA this is a word transformed to mean SAVE.
It's not a NAME,it's a word.

In 3442 and 43 you have YESHUWA Jeshua this is a corruption of the NAME
YEHOWSHUA #3091 correctly YAHUWSHUA which means "Salvation of YHW".

Granted in the Aramic it's YESHUA,
but is this not because of the ineffability doctrine?

And once again done at the hands of MEN in order to hide the NAME YHWH ?

In the NAME of MY YASHA ---- YHWH and through His Son YAHUWSHUA Messiah

posted 10-30-1999 08:38 PM            

In Gullivers Travels, there was a group of religious zealots known as Yahoo's. This was meant to be a slam. The enemy meant it for evil, but could Yhwh have meant it for good?

uriah7@yahoo.com

posted 10-30-1999 10:20 PM         

Perhaps you don't know anyone named Hayim or Simkhah, but I do.

My statements about names in the Tanakh are based on reading the Hebrew script, not some conclusions drawn from Strong's.

JustBill

p.s. If you check the pointed text, it is Y'hoshua or Yehoshua not Yahushua.